Ok, what is the value of them then?.. if you gonna compare them, what is the value?. It cost dell some money to figure out how to make their laptops at whatever dimensions they are (regardless of whether they are thicker than apples or not). Are you saying that dell laptops are the size they are due to absolutely no research and cost of doing so?. Yeah, apple is better at it.. but that does not make the cost zero for dell. The comparison is still invalid because the both apple and pc manufactorer has to incur some cost to make the laptops at whatever dimension they produce them at.
True, but if you are better at it than everyone else, you should be rewarded. In this case, reward equals higher prices & better margins. If you are not willing to pay more for something better, then buy a Dell.
The comparison was aimed at comparing hardware cost, and is still incorrect. The fact is even with Apple switching to Intel they are still more expensive then other computers. Don't start rattling off features like MagSafe and iSight and the remote. I would get rid of all of them to shave 100 dollars off the cost of an Apple product. Btw, Sudden Motion sensor was an IBM technology before Apple, and also expansion slots.... lets see, any on the MacBook? No. How about other computers, oh wait almost all of them come with them. Don't try to sidetrack the issue. The best way is to compare the core hardware, screens, hard drives, ram, processor, gpu, and audio.
Dell computers need software utilities to configure because the piece of sh$tboxes need it or they would never run. That's not added value, its a necessity
I'm sure this is a comfort to dell as they are paying to "bundle" the software with their laptops. You make my point. The software value is subjective. Why should the reviewer do a software comparison when it is almost impossible to do so?. The software bundle has value to you only because it is usefull to you. My mac came with ilife. I have yet to use garageband, idvd or iMovie. So to me, this software bundle does not have as much value to me as it does to you. If we are gonna do a strict comparison in terms of cost to manufacturer, then you might find the pc has more value in terms of dollar cost of software included. Either way you look at it, you are back to square one. Do you really want someone to do a bundled software comparison.. I remember something someone once told me.. "never ask a question unless you are fully prepared for the answer". Lets just say to us mac users, mac bundled software is more valuable than a PC bundled software and leave it at that.. but i don't expect reviewers should be forced to compare software value when that is totaly subjective.
The comparison was aimed at comparing hardware cost, and is still incorrect. The fact is even with Apple switching to Intel they are still more expensive then other computers. Don't start rattling off features like MagSafe and iSight and the remote. I would get rid of all of them to shave 100 dollars off the cost of an Apple product. Btw, Sudden Motion sensor was an IBM technology before Apple, and also expansion slots.... lets see, any on the MacBook? No. How about other computers, oh wait almost all of them come with them. Don't try to sidetrack the issue. The best way is to compare the core hardware, screens, hard drives, ram, processor, gpu, and audio.
So if you would get rid of all that stuff to shave off $100, then the only comparison left is the real core issue. Core hardware is just a commodity. Software my friend, software. If you want OSX you have to pay more. Period. The add-ons are just there to try and sweeten the deal.
True, but if you are better at it than everyone else, you should be rewarded. In this case, reward equals higher prices & better margins. If you are not willing to pay more for something better, then buy a Dell.
Actually i was being generous in conceding this point to apple. Go to dell website (yeah i know, very painfull experience).. you will see their laptops are comparable to apple's in dimension (weight and thickness). So really, this is not even a feature that apple excels at. Everyone can make thin laptops.
Actually i was being generous in conceding this point to apple. Go to dell website (yeah i know, very painfull experience).. you will see their laptops are comparable to apple's in dimension (weight and thickness). So really, this is not even a feature that apple excels at. Everyone can make thin laptops.
But thin AND beautiful?
I haven't been to the Dell website in 2 years. Not planning on offending my beloved copy of Safari anytime soon either.
User23 please don't defend your stupid freind. The fact is that most problems with any electronic device are user related. If you didn't have stupid people using these devices spyware wouldn't be such a problem, hell people would actually be able to program there VCR correctly but many couldn't. If a user is stupid he is going to have problems plain and simple.
Wow. Open mouth insert Nike, eh?
My "stupid" friend is a retired 'net administrator/telecommunications specialist who spent the majority of his stupid career working for über tech firms in the stupid Bay Area in stupid California. He was so stupid at his job & even so much more stupider at finances that he was able to stupidly retire 20 years earlier than most genius americans.
You are stupidly correct, of course, because, stupid me, he of all people must have been STUPID to even buy an HP in the first place. That aspect of his stupid stupidity I stupidly agree with you on. His stupid problem happend, as I said, because he stupidly tried to install a driver for his stupid HP printer on his stupid HP machine & the process corrupted his stupid OS.
Let me leave you with a stupid phrase you might be able to learn something from:
Eventus stultorum magister
I still stand by my point, given that time is money, it is inherent that PC users wastes more time & money, on average, than a Mac user "maintaining" his/her system.
Actually i was being generous in conceding this point to apple. Go to dell website (yeah i know, very painfull experience).. you will see their laptops are comparable to apple's in dimension (weight and thickness). So really, this is not even a feature that apple excels at. Everyone can make thin laptops.
Apples laptops are thinner and lighter at the same price points than Dells (and yes i checked the website). If you dont think that takes money, you are very misinformed.
Even Dell charges more for their smaller laptops with less in specs than their bigger bulkier higher end laptops.
If it doesnt take money, and size doesnt matter, why not just get a desktop, its cheaper than a laptop.
The comparison is wrong. I bought an e1705 (with a coupon) for $1300 that is half the price of the MacBook Pro 17, and has a much better video card, higher resolution, and more USB ports.
Admittedly, there's no built-in camera, and Windows isn't as "cool" as Mac OS X, but saying that there's no price difference is simply a lie.
Plus, I'm VERY disappointed in their choice for integrated video cards for the Mac Mini and the MacBook. It's a nice way to force people into iMacs and MacBook Pros, but seriously degrades the value of the Apple brand for most of the computer enthusiasts I know.
If you buy dells then you should know more than anyone that almost all dells in the 1099-1499 range use integrated graphics so what the helll is are you talking about?
Dell cupons don't count because they that is not it's real price. That'd be like a mbp owner counting the amazon discount in the original sale price that makes no sense.
Go to dell's site and look at all the machines with inegrated both desktop and notebooks and tell me that apple is terrible for offering it in 5 machines.
saying a laptop is better value for money because it has good looks, branding, magsafe or sudden motion sensor or backlit keyboard etc is plain BS.. HOWEVER.. What is crucial is that these elements make up something we call "design". If anyone watches ebay or collects antiques or anything like that, they will know that objects that are favoured in terms of design credentials hold on to their value a lot better than "functional" items.. Whether this is right or wrong is neither here nor there since we are purely talking about money. Now, while I may pay 10-20% more for my Apple or Sony laptop or desktop compared to say dell or hp, my Apple or Sony will hold onto that extra value, and when I come to sell it, I regain my bucks.
I'm sure this is a comfort to dell as they are paying to "bundle" the software with their laptops. You make my point. The software value is subjective. Why should the reviewer do a software comparison when it is almost impossible to do so?. The software bundle has value to you only because it is usefull to you. My mac came with ilife. I have yet to use garageband, idvd or iMovie. So to me, this software bundle does not have as much value to me as it does to you. If we are gonna do a strict comparison in terms of cost to manufacturer, then you might find the pc has more value in terms of dollar cost of software included. Either way you look at it, you are back to square one. Do you really want someone to do a bundled software comparison.. I remember something someone once told me.. "never ask a question unless you are fully prepared for the answer". Lets just say to us mac users, mac bundled software is more valuable than a PC bundled software and leave it at that.. but i don't expect reviewers should be forced to compare software value when that is totaly subjective.
I knew this would happen with the move to Intel & Boot Camp. The survey is there to show the price difference isn't as big as the general public think but apart from that it's terrible....
...it's terrible that we're being sucked into the 'irrelevant specification sell' that blights the Windows market. That's the one which focuses our attention on the hardware and distracts us from the fact that the only thing that makes systems useful is the design & availability of the software.
I'd rather pay $1300 for a system that does something useful and changes the way I do Music, Photo's, Video & shortly TV than $1000 for half a system which becomes a means to it's own end and leaves me scrabbling around the internet for months looking for the well-designed software necessary for the above - that doesn't exist.
As for the person who mentioned the 'stupid user' I'm not sure there's such a thing. Maybe they shouldn't be buying products from 'stupid' designers (although these aren't real designers, just geeks who think they are - help me out here Archstudent). Maybe these normal people are Apple's biggest potential market & maybe the 'unstupid' users who get hooked by the oldest sales trick in the book (the empowered alternate close) thanks to spec-based survey should consider themselves a bit more 'stupid'.
The comparison was aimed at comparing hardware cost, and is still incorrect. The fact is even with Apple switching to Intel they are still more expensive then other computers. Don't start rattling off features like MagSafe and iSight and the remote. I would get rid of all of them to shave 100 dollars off the cost of an Apple product. Btw, Sudden Motion sensor was an IBM technology before Apple, and also expansion slots.... lets see, any on the MacBook? No. How about other computers, oh wait almost all of them come with them. Don't try to sidetrack the issue. The best way is to compare the core hardware, screens, hard drives, ram, processor, gpu, and audio.
Actually Apple developed the technology and holds the patents for Sudden Motions Sensors. IBM uses the technology. Apple holds many patents used by other computer manufacurers.
Comments
Originally posted by wnurse
Ok, what is the value of them then?.. if you gonna compare them, what is the value?. It cost dell some money to figure out how to make their laptops at whatever dimensions they are (regardless of whether they are thicker than apples or not). Are you saying that dell laptops are the size they are due to absolutely no research and cost of doing so?. Yeah, apple is better at it.. but that does not make the cost zero for dell. The comparison is still invalid because the both apple and pc manufactorer has to incur some cost to make the laptops at whatever dimension they produce them at.
True, but if you are better at it than everyone else, you should be rewarded. In this case, reward equals higher prices & better margins. If you are not willing to pay more for something better, then buy a Dell.
Originally posted by lhvide
Dell computers need software utilities to configure because the piece of sh$tboxes need it or they would never run. That's not added value, its a necessity
I'm sure this is a comfort to dell as they are paying to "bundle" the software with their laptops. You make my point. The software value is subjective. Why should the reviewer do a software comparison when it is almost impossible to do so?. The software bundle has value to you only because it is usefull to you. My mac came with ilife. I have yet to use garageband, idvd or iMovie. So to me, this software bundle does not have as much value to me as it does to you. If we are gonna do a strict comparison in terms of cost to manufacturer, then you might find the pc has more value in terms of dollar cost of software included. Either way you look at it, you are back to square one. Do you really want someone to do a bundled software comparison.. I remember something someone once told me.. "never ask a question unless you are fully prepared for the answer". Lets just say to us mac users, mac bundled software is more valuable than a PC bundled software and leave it at that.. but i don't expect reviewers should be forced to compare software value when that is totaly subjective.
Originally posted by scavanger
The comparison was aimed at comparing hardware cost, and is still incorrect. The fact is even with Apple switching to Intel they are still more expensive then other computers. Don't start rattling off features like MagSafe and iSight and the remote. I would get rid of all of them to shave 100 dollars off the cost of an Apple product. Btw, Sudden Motion sensor was an IBM technology before Apple, and also expansion slots.... lets see, any on the MacBook? No. How about other computers, oh wait almost all of them come with them. Don't try to sidetrack the issue. The best way is to compare the core hardware, screens, hard drives, ram, processor, gpu, and audio.
So if you would get rid of all that stuff to shave off $100, then the only comparison left is the real core issue. Core hardware is just a commodity. Software my friend, software. If you want OSX you have to pay more. Period. The add-ons are just there to try and sweeten the deal.
Originally posted by lhvide
True, but if you are better at it than everyone else, you should be rewarded. In this case, reward equals higher prices & better margins. If you are not willing to pay more for something better, then buy a Dell.
Actually i was being generous in conceding this point to apple. Go to dell website (yeah i know, very painfull experience).. you will see their laptops are comparable to apple's in dimension (weight and thickness). So really, this is not even a feature that apple excels at. Everyone can make thin laptops.
Originally posted by wnurse
Actually i was being generous in conceding this point to apple. Go to dell website (yeah i know, very painfull experience).. you will see their laptops are comparable to apple's in dimension (weight and thickness). So really, this is not even a feature that apple excels at. Everyone can make thin laptops.
But thin AND beautiful?
I haven't been to the Dell website in 2 years. Not planning on offending my beloved copy of Safari anytime soon either.
Originally posted by scavanger
User23 please don't defend your stupid freind. The fact is that most problems with any electronic device are user related. If you didn't have stupid people using these devices spyware wouldn't be such a problem, hell people would actually be able to program there VCR correctly but many couldn't. If a user is stupid he is going to have problems plain and simple.
Wow. Open mouth insert Nike, eh?
My "stupid" friend is a retired 'net administrator/telecommunications specialist who spent the majority of his stupid career working for über tech firms in the stupid Bay Area in stupid California. He was so stupid at his job & even so much more stupider at finances that he was able to stupidly retire 20 years earlier than most genius americans.
You are stupidly correct, of course, because, stupid me, he of all people must have been STUPID to even buy an HP in the first place. That aspect of his stupid stupidity I stupidly agree with you on. His stupid problem happend, as I said, because he stupidly tried to install a driver for his stupid HP printer on his stupid HP machine & the process corrupted his stupid OS.
Let me leave you with a stupid phrase you might be able to learn something from:
Eventus stultorum magister
I still stand by my point, given that time is money, it is inherent that PC users wastes more time & money, on average, than a Mac user "maintaining" his/her system.
Originally posted by wnurse
Actually i was being generous in conceding this point to apple. Go to dell website (yeah i know, very painfull experience).. you will see their laptops are comparable to apple's in dimension (weight and thickness). So really, this is not even a feature that apple excels at. Everyone can make thin laptops.
Apples laptops are thinner and lighter at the same price points than Dells (and yes i checked the website). If you dont think that takes money, you are very misinformed.
Even Dell charges more for their smaller laptops with less in specs than their bigger bulkier higher end laptops.
If it doesnt take money, and size doesnt matter, why not just get a desktop, its cheaper than a laptop.
Originally posted by deanklear
The comparison is wrong. I bought an e1705 (with a coupon) for $1300 that is half the price of the MacBook Pro 17, and has a much better video card, higher resolution, and more USB ports.
Admittedly, there's no built-in camera, and Windows isn't as "cool" as Mac OS X, but saying that there's no price difference is simply a lie.
Plus, I'm VERY disappointed in their choice for integrated video cards for the Mac Mini and the MacBook. It's a nice way to force people into iMacs and MacBook Pros, but seriously degrades the value of the Apple brand for most of the computer enthusiasts I know.
If you buy dells then you should know more than anyone that almost all dells in the 1099-1499 range use integrated graphics so what the helll is are you talking about?
Dell cupons don't count because they that is not it's real price. That'd be like a mbp owner counting the amazon discount in the original sale price that makes no sense.
Go to dell's site and look at all the machines with inegrated both desktop and notebooks and tell me that apple is terrible for offering it in 5 machines.
Originally posted by lhvide
But thin AND beautiful?
I haven't been to the Dell website in 2 years. Not planning on offending my beloved copy of Safari anytime soon either.
I don't think it would offend Safari, is it still running on WebObjects?
McD
Originally posted by wnurse
I'm sure this is a comfort to dell as they are paying to "bundle" the software with their laptops. You make my point. The software value is subjective. Why should the reviewer do a software comparison when it is almost impossible to do so?. The software bundle has value to you only because it is usefull to you. My mac came with ilife. I have yet to use garageband, idvd or iMovie. So to me, this software bundle does not have as much value to me as it does to you. If we are gonna do a strict comparison in terms of cost to manufacturer, then you might find the pc has more value in terms of dollar cost of software included. Either way you look at it, you are back to square one. Do you really want someone to do a bundled software comparison.. I remember something someone once told me.. "never ask a question unless you are fully prepared for the answer". Lets just say to us mac users, mac bundled software is more valuable than a PC bundled software and leave it at that.. but i don't expect reviewers should be forced to compare software value when that is totaly subjective.
I knew this would happen with the move to Intel & Boot Camp. The survey is there to show the price difference isn't as big as the general public think but apart from that it's terrible....
...it's terrible that we're being sucked into the 'irrelevant specification sell' that blights the Windows market. That's the one which focuses our attention on the hardware and distracts us from the fact that the only thing that makes systems useful is the design & availability of the software.
I'd rather pay $1300 for a system that does something useful and changes the way I do Music, Photo's, Video & shortly TV than $1000 for half a system which becomes a means to it's own end and leaves me scrabbling around the internet for months looking for the well-designed software necessary for the above - that doesn't exist.
As for the person who mentioned the 'stupid user' I'm not sure there's such a thing. Maybe they shouldn't be buying products from 'stupid' designers (although these aren't real designers, just geeks who think they are - help me out here Archstudent). Maybe these normal people are Apple's biggest potential market & maybe the 'unstupid' users who get hooked by the oldest sales trick in the book (the empowered alternate close) thanks to spec-based survey should consider themselves a bit more 'stupid'.
McD
Originally posted by scavanger
The comparison was aimed at comparing hardware cost, and is still incorrect. The fact is even with Apple switching to Intel they are still more expensive then other computers. Don't start rattling off features like MagSafe and iSight and the remote. I would get rid of all of them to shave 100 dollars off the cost of an Apple product. Btw, Sudden Motion sensor was an IBM technology before Apple, and also expansion slots.... lets see, any on the MacBook? No. How about other computers, oh wait almost all of them come with them. Don't try to sidetrack the issue. The best way is to compare the core hardware, screens, hard drives, ram, processor, gpu, and audio.
Actually Apple developed the technology and holds the patents for Sudden Motions Sensors. IBM uses the technology. Apple holds many patents used by other computer manufacurers.