Actually, you could put a CD in one drive, and dupe the entire disc to the other drive, forget about SOME songs.
And no, you don't need 2 cd burners. Buy the tower with one burner and then drop a cheap CD-ROM drive into the second expansion bay. That is why some of us have hated the Powermac towers for so long, because instead of dropping $50 on a CD-rom, Apple laid us over a barrel by forcing us to drop hundreds on a Firewire peripheral drive.
This is pathetic. Most people comlaining are only looking at clock speed which is pretty useless anyway.
Most complaining about them not being a big enough improvment over the dual 1Ghz are still puttering along with a 500Mhz machine and have no appreciation for the improvements in the motherboard which are much more significant than the processors.
[quote]Which is faster than Geforce 4MX ... and in some Benchmarks even faster than GeFORCE4 Ti ,.... <hr></blockquote>
Considering the 9000 Pro is slower than an 8500, and the 8500 can barely keep up with the GF4 Ti, I would really like to see these benchmarks.
Amorph: You mentioned that Maxbus could speed up video card access...what's the point? I think most video cards these days with 128MB of RAM can store all textures in the onboard memory. Accessing main memory would be slow no matter what! What am I missing?
Hopefully this means APPLE FIXES KEYBOARD EJECT!!!
It worked fine in 10.1.4 with my 2 optical drives (it reverses the current configuration... that is if it is open-open it closes-closes, and open-closed it closes-opens), but 10.1.5 only works on the primary drive!
It would make so much more sense just to press once to restore EVERYTHING to open, press again to close.
But I am going to do 'more' video in the next 6 months
But......I still don't see any need for me to jump yet. Better wait for next year </strong><hr></blockquote>
Leonis, I am curious to know. I am going to uni next year, doing a course in digital media on 3D animation, DV, imagery, sound etc. For me, 3D and DV are the things I like best
Why do you say that the current macs are good for DV, but not 3D? Understandably, FCP benifits greatly from the second processor, but is it that 3D doesn't? Or is it that 3D needs a better graphics card, or is it that 3D needs a faster bus more so than DV? or something else
With maya 4.5 using SMP, I think that would make the current lineup of all dual's damn good for DV and 3D..... if you used maya, tho
Yeah, $500 less than the dual 1 GHz used to be, but still $500 more than a 17" iMac. But I hear ya... I believe I'm going to buy the new dual 1 GHz for myself.
Leonis, I am curious to know. I am going to uni next year, doing a course in digital media on 3D animation, DV, imagery, sound etc. For me, 3D and DV are the things I like best
Why do you say that the current macs are good for DV, but not 3D? Understandably, FCP benifits greatly from the second processor, but is it that 3D doesn't? Or is it that 3D needs a better graphics card, or is it that 3D needs a faster bus more so than DV? or something else
With maya 4.5 using SMP, I think that would make the current lineup of all dual's damn good for DV and 3D..... if you used maya, tho </strong><hr></blockquote>
Architecture of the mobo on these new macs
Reason on why it is not as good as PC (or I say suck) on 3D:
3D rendering requires raw processing power and the bus between RAM and CPU. Speed between the PCI slots, ATA or whatever aren't that matter.
The current mobo supports less theroical bandwidth and plus the clock is lower and with weaker FPU than Athlon.
Reason why it's good for video:
Video stuff. Unlike 3D. Look on BOTH processing power and I/O.
The current mobo 'splits' bandwidth for the processor and system I/O. They means they have their own paths to 'walk'
As the result. The choke on data pass through on this new mobo should be a lot less common compare to the SlowSilver(tm)
On a true 266MHz bus, the latency would be halved and the transfer rate would be twice as fast in all cases
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Doesn't the latency depend on the speed of the memory module itself and the length of the bus, not its frequency? If the bits have to travel 8ns from RAM to CPU (dunno how far that would be lengthwise), then the latency is going to be 8+ ns. Increasing the bus frequency from 133MHz to 266MHz just means the 8ns is counted as two cycles instead of one, but it's still 8ns.
Eww indiscriminate quotes just gives a bad taste in my mouth.
While there is something there for 3D compared to PCs, the new line up by far doesn't "SUCK"
Everything matters. the second chip matters, the programming matters, the video card and the HD.
They just don't matter "that much".
PCs for 3d renderings by far only effects the "lower-mid" range of the market.
We have render farms for mid-high ends.
And any computer can fit a low end for 3d these days.
So really, it's not as bad as it seems as people who want the "hope for G4" probably won't use it to 3D 40% of the time. And a little less power on that end doesn't make it a bad purchase.
3d can really screw a PC up. I just wish 3d studio max was on Mac . Really tho these should eb fine for 3d, sure you can talk all about rendering times and miniscule performance, but if you add up all the problems you will have with your windoze box then go ahead and use one. The only real benefit is that I wish you could get like a fastA$$ wildcat or oxygen card for mac.
Right... so for the powermacs to be better for 3D than they are now, its the bus that really needs the boost (DDR's bus).
Interesting, thanks
I'm buying in Jan, before uni starts in March (AU). So hopefully the bottom model will have a superdrive and maybe a faster bus, and it'll all be sweet!
When talk about software. Yes Maya 4.5 finally f*cking support MP on Mac.
But what this app bugs me big time is that you are forced to pay for the annual support service in order to receive maintanence update. If not. YOu won't be able to receive any updater.
Example. If the initial 4.5 release has some serious bugs and really requires a service release. If you don't have the support service you are out of luck.
I dont think much of the high end machines, once again they are far too expensive for what they are, compared to the 867.
However, I think people are missing the boat on the 867. It is sweet. It finally brings the powermac into the reach of casual users.
I can just afford to consider the entry level, but with only a single cpu I was not willing to buy it. My prayers have been answered ( Macs cost twice as much as a percentage of income in australia ).
On top of that, it has the same motherboard asthe high end machines, so I have no doubt that it will run at a 167 bus ( a little overclocking never went astray ), with an adjusted multiplier ( 6x looks good ).
Buy it with the minimum ram, and replace all that with PC2700 ram from my PC shop ( so glad they are selling a model with 256 ).
As for the rest of it, Im quite happy, might even get the ATI 9000.
<strong>Right... so for the powermacs to be better for 3D than they are now, its the bus that really needs the boost (DDR's bus).
Interesting, thanks
I'm buying in Jan, before uni starts in March (AU). So hopefully the bottom model will have a superdrive and maybe a faster bus, and it'll all be sweet!</strong><hr></blockquote>
To be safe, wait a month after MYSF, if they don't release anything at MWSF
<strong>When talk about software. Yes Maya 4.5 finally f*cking support MP on Mac.
But what this app bugs me big time is that you are forced to pay for the annual support service in order to receive maintanence update. If not. YOu won't be able to receive any updater.
Example. If the initial 4.5 release has some serious bugs and really requires a service release. If you don't have the support service you are out of luck.
[ 08-14-2002: Message edited by: Leonis ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
This is exactly why I use Lightwave - so much cheaper and well made... and the lightwave versions on mac are always on par with the PC versions.
Yes I'll be waiting until whenever the next powermac update is, basically. It will be due for one in jan/feb/march, but the earlier the better. Just hope I don't have to wait until next august
OK so buying maya is a ripoff then. hmmm. I think my uni uses maya and lightwave. Does lightwave make use of MP?
Also, slightly off topic and more directed at the 3D users (there seem to be a few here in this thread), if price was not an issue (ie uni giving me the software to use), which 3D program would you recommend? Maya looks sweer, but I don't know much about lightwave. Whatever is EASIER, can produce good results, and is good with animation.... I want to do a mini little movie in 3D over the holidays, which would give me a chance to get started with one. Ease of making something cool and decent model animation
Comments
<strong>
Actually, you could put a CD in one drive, and dupe the entire disc to the other drive, forget about SOME songs.
And no, you don't need 2 cd burners. Buy the tower with one burner and then drop a cheap CD-ROM drive into the second expansion bay. That is why some of us have hated the Powermac towers for so long, because instead of dropping $50 on a CD-rom, Apple laid us over a barrel by forcing us to drop hundreds on a Firewire peripheral drive.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
JD, thx...
<strong>
G4Dude, I like your G4 concept case design better than todays new ones.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Thanks man! Me too!
Most complaining about them not being a big enough improvment over the dual 1Ghz are still puttering along with a 500Mhz machine and have no appreciation for the improvements in the motherboard which are much more significant than the processors.
Learn something before bitching.
Considering the 9000 Pro is slower than an 8500, and the 8500 can barely keep up with the GF4 Ti, I would really like to see these benchmarks.
Amorph: You mentioned that Maxbus could speed up video card access...what's the point? I think most video cards these days with 128MB of RAM can store all textures in the onboard memory. Accessing main memory would be slow no matter what! What am I missing?
It worked fine in 10.1.4 with my 2 optical drives (it reverses the current configuration... that is if it is open-open it closes-closes, and open-closed it closes-opens), but 10.1.5 only works on the primary drive!
It would make so much more sense just to press once to restore EVERYTHING to open, press again to close.
Barto
<strong>"
Shame I aint using said 'power'Mac for video, eh?
Lemon Bon Bon</strong><hr></blockquote>
But I am going to do 'more' video in the next 6 months
But......I still don't see any need for me to jump yet. Better wait for next year
<strong>
But I am going to do 'more' video in the next 6 months
But......I still don't see any need for me to jump yet. Better wait for next year
Leonis, I am curious to know. I am going to uni next year, doing a course in digital media on 3D animation, DV, imagery, sound etc. For me, 3D and DV are the things I like best
Why do you say that the current macs are good for DV, but not 3D? Understandably, FCP benifits greatly from the second processor, but is it that 3D doesn't? Or is it that 3D needs a better graphics card, or is it that 3D needs a faster bus more so than DV? or something else
With maya 4.5 using SMP, I think that would make the current lineup of all dual's damn good for DV and 3D..... if you used maya, tho
<strong>
Leonis, I am curious to know. I am going to uni next year, doing a course in digital media on 3D animation, DV, imagery, sound etc. For me, 3D and DV are the things I like best
Why do you say that the current macs are good for DV, but not 3D? Understandably, FCP benifits greatly from the second processor, but is it that 3D doesn't? Or is it that 3D needs a better graphics card, or is it that 3D needs a faster bus more so than DV? or something else
With maya 4.5 using SMP, I think that would make the current lineup of all dual's damn good for DV and 3D..... if you used maya, tho
Architecture of the mobo on these new macs
Reason on why it is not as good as PC (or I say suck) on 3D:
3D rendering requires raw processing power and the bus between RAM and CPU. Speed between the PCI slots, ATA or whatever aren't that matter.
The current mobo supports less theroical bandwidth and plus the clock is lower and with weaker FPU than Athlon.
Reason why it's good for video:
Video stuff. Unlike 3D. Look on BOTH processing power and I/O.
The current mobo 'splits' bandwidth for the processor and system I/O. They means they have their own paths to 'walk'
As the result. The choke on data pass through on this new mobo should be a lot less common compare to the SlowSilver(tm)
[ 08-13-2002: Message edited by: Leonis ]</p>
<strong>
On a true 266MHz bus, the latency would be halved and the transfer rate would be twice as fast in all cases
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Doesn't the latency depend on the speed of the memory module itself and the length of the bus, not its frequency? If the bits have to travel 8ns from RAM to CPU (dunno how far that would be lengthwise), then the latency is going to be 8+ ns. Increasing the bus frequency from 133MHz to 266MHz just means the 8ns is counted as two cycles instead of one, but it's still 8ns.
While there is something there for 3D compared to PCs, the new line up by far doesn't "SUCK"
Everything matters. the second chip matters, the programming matters, the video card and the HD.
They just don't matter "that much".
PCs for 3d renderings by far only effects the "lower-mid" range of the market.
We have render farms for mid-high ends.
And any computer can fit a low end for 3d these days.
So really, it's not as bad as it seems as people who want the "hope for G4" probably won't use it to 3D 40% of the time. And a little less power on that end doesn't make it a bad purchase.
~Kuku
[ 08-13-2002: Message edited by: Kuku ]</p>
3d can really screw a PC up. I just wish 3d studio max was on Mac
Interesting, thanks
I'm buying in Jan, before uni starts in March (AU). So hopefully the bottom model will have a superdrive and maybe a faster bus, and it'll all be sweet!
But what this app bugs me big time is that you are forced to pay for the annual support service in order to receive maintanence update. If not. YOu won't be able to receive any updater.
Example. If the initial 4.5 release has some serious bugs and really requires a service release. If you don't have the support service you are out of luck.
[ 08-14-2002: Message edited by: Leonis ]</p>
However, I think people are missing the boat on the 867. It is sweet. It finally brings the powermac into the reach of casual users.
I can just afford to consider the entry level, but with only a single cpu I was not willing to buy it. My prayers have been answered ( Macs cost twice as much as a percentage of income in australia ).
On top of that, it has the same motherboard asthe high end machines, so I have no doubt that it will run at a 167 bus ( a little overclocking never went astray ), with an adjusted multiplier ( 6x looks good ).
Buy it with the minimum ram, and replace all that with PC2700 ram from my PC shop ( so glad they are selling a model with 256 ).
As for the rest of it, Im quite happy, might even get the ATI 9000.
Ill hold off on the superdrive as well.
Are Apple using seagate drives, or WD?
<strong>Right... so for the powermacs to be better for 3D than they are now, its the bus that really needs the boost (DDR's bus).
Interesting, thanks
I'm buying in Jan, before uni starts in March (AU). So hopefully the bottom model will have a superdrive and maybe a faster bus, and it'll all be sweet!</strong><hr></blockquote>
To be safe, wait a month after MYSF, if they don't release anything at MWSF
<strong>When talk about software. Yes Maya 4.5 finally f*cking support MP on Mac.
But what this app bugs me big time is that you are forced to pay for the annual support service in order to receive maintanence update. If not. YOu won't be able to receive any updater.
Example. If the initial 4.5 release has some serious bugs and really requires a service release. If you don't have the support service you are out of luck.
[ 08-14-2002: Message edited by: Leonis ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
This is exactly why I use Lightwave - so much cheaper and well made... and the lightwave versions on mac are always on par with the PC versions.
OK so buying maya is a ripoff then. hmmm. I think my uni uses maya and lightwave. Does lightwave make use of MP?
Also, slightly off topic and more directed at the 3D users (there seem to be a few here in this thread), if price was not an issue (ie uni giving me the software to use), which 3D program would you recommend? Maya looks sweer, but I don't know much about lightwave. Whatever is EASIER, can produce good results, and is good with animation.... I want to do a mini little movie in 3D over the holidays, which would give me a chance to get started with one. Ease of making something cool and decent model animation