More on the eMac, Jobs, Creative and the iPod

Posted:
in General Discussion edited January 2014
Apple's educational eMac is still hobbling on one leg, but will soon be put to rest. Meanwhile, Apple chief executive Steve Jobs has found himself in the the thick of things once again, this time smack in the middle of the Creative/Apple spat.



eMac still here, but not for long



Although the eMac has already taken its final curtain-call and exited the consumer scene, Apple continues to fill orders for the friendly looking PowerPC-based Macs for its needy educational buyers. But in light of better things to come, this too will soon end.



By the close of the month, the all-in-one educational desktop should disappear from the Apple radar completely, reputable sources say. Supplies of the machines have already stretched thin, they say, and educational buyers are being urged to processes their final eMac orders "now."



Apple is expected to declare the eMac "end-of-life" for educational buyers in the coming weeks. Based on previous reports, there will be an approximate two-month dry period for educational Mac desktops before the company introduces its iMac Core Duo-styled eMac replacement early in the fall.



Some history on the Creative vs. Apple mess



In its "Zen" patent suit, Creative Technology claims that in the pre-iPod days of 2001, Apple came knocking on its door for help developing its own digital music player. The Singapore-based iPod rival also resorts to some entertaining name-dropping in its explanation of the affairs.



According to the filing, in January 2001, Apple co-founder and chief executive Steve Jobs approached a Creative employee at the Macworld trade show to "extol the virtues" of Creative's then popular NOMAD Jukebox.



"They then discussed a possible meeting between Creative and Apple," the filing reads. "Mr. Jobs indicated that Apple wanted a smaller version of the Nomad Jukebox digital music player."



"Shortly thereafter, on or about February 8, 2001, Creative met with Apple representatives, including Steve Jobs, to further explore ways in which the companies could work together," the filing continues. "Creative showed Apple several prototype portable digital media players that showed the patented interface."



Creative claims that Apple initially lead the company to believe a joint venture was in the works before abruptly packing it in and declaring that there is "not enough financial room in the portable digital media player market for two companies."



Instead, Apple proposed that Creative license its technology to Apple. According to the filing, "Apple [also] proposed that Creative spin off its portable digital media player business into a separate company and that Apple would then invest in that entity."



Creative declined the offers and on October 23 of that same year, Apple introduced the iPod.



More on Creative vs. Apple: Creative files suit, seeks injunction; Apple counter sues; Apple counter sues again.
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Comments

  • Reply 1 of 28
    wilcowilco Posts: 985member
    The plot thickens...



    Maybe Apple isn't the good guy vs. Creative afterall.



    *waits for Apple apologists heads to explode*
  • Reply 2 of 28
    tednditedndi Posts: 1,921member
    The pirate flag once flew over cupertino...





    Why join the navy when you can be a pirate?



    Steve Jobs.



  • Reply 3 of 28
    chris cuillachris cuilla Posts: 4,825member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by wilco

    Maybe Apple isn't the good guy vs. Creative afterall.



    Not sure how this news bit suggests that at all. But...whatever.
  • Reply 4 of 28
    nagrommenagromme Posts: 2,834member
    Sneaky Apple, getting into Creative Labs to see the NeXT Column View that Creative copied!
  • Reply 5 of 28
    deapeajaydeapeajay Posts: 909member
    Yah, I'm confused. What do you think Apple did wrong???





    Business talks happen all the time. They never agreed to do anything together. Creative has nothing to complain about except for their stupidity in not taking Apple's offer when it was on the table, and now they're suffering for it. Thank goodness they didn't though.



    The only issue one might bring up is that Apple saw the interface on the Creative players, set up facade meetings between the companies so they could get a better look at the players interface, learned its deepest secrets and used them in the iPod launch. But who would actually believe that!
  • Reply 6 of 28
    mark2005mark2005 Posts: 1,158member
    Does anyone have a picture of the Nomad Jukebox (of 2001) interface?



    Because I'd really like to know exactly what in the interface display was patented. This concept of menu lists and the opening of another menu list when an item is selected on portable electronics is quite old - heck, it's in my Sony digital camcorder dating from the late 90s.
  • Reply 7 of 28
    Quote:

    Originally posted by nagromme

    Sneaky Apple, getting into Creative Labs to see the NeXT Column View that Creative copied!



    nagromme is right.

    The real issue is who invented(or who pantented) the column view first.

    NeXT is earliest implementation of this that I am aware of.

    There is another company that claims to have delveloped something similar to iTunes column view, but that is a different lawsuit.



    Apple needs to aggressively protect this interface concept.

    I can't wait to see an Apple iPhone that uses this type of column view/menu system!
  • Reply 8 of 28
    darth_appledarth_apple Posts: 199member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by AppleInsider

    eMac still here, but not for long



    Although the eMac has already taken its final curtain-call and exited the consumer scene, Apple continues to fill orders for the friendly looking PowerPC-based Macs for its needy educational buyers. But in light of better things to come, this too will soon end.



    By the close of the month, the all-in-one educational desktop should disappear from the Apple radar completely, reputable sources say. Supplies of the machines have already stretched thin, they say, and educational buyers are being urged to processes their final eMac orders "now."



    Apple is expected to declare the eMac "end-of-life" for educational buyers in the coming weeks. Based on previous reports, there will be an approximate two-month dry period for educational Mac desktops before the company introduces its iMac Core Duo-styled eMac replacement early in the fall.




    releasing it in Sept. really makes no sense unless they plan to debut it at the expo in Paris and even then it's way past the school buying season, unless Apple and schools have a special deal worked out.



    I still think that the eMac will debut at NECC convention in July it just makes sense but oh well I guess we'll find out in next few months.
  • Reply 9 of 28
    boogabooga Posts: 1,082member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Darth_Apple

    releasing it in Sept. really makes no sense unless they plan to debut it at the expo in Paris and even then it's way past the school buying season, unless Apple and schools have a special deal worked out.



    I still think that the eMac will debut at NECC convention in July it just makes sense but oh well I guess we'll find out in next few months.




    I agree. I don't think even Apple would be that stupid in its product timing. If this rumor is true, people need to seriously be fired.



    So... Apple is end-of-lifing their education machine at the start of educational buying season, having nothing to offer for the duration of it, then rolling out their new education machine just as school hardware upgrades end and students are back at school?



    If that's what happens, look for a lot of market share lost and some heads rolling at Apple's education division.
  • Reply 10 of 28
    cosmonutcosmonut Posts: 4,872member
    This whole mess with Creative reminds me of something I heard in this week's "This Week in Media" podcast. One of the contributers made a really good point:



    His argument was that, with all of these tech people being trained in problem solving in the same core ways, it's bound to happen that a solution to a problem will inherently present itself in a particular form because that's essentially the "box" in which engineers think. The only difference between engineers is who happens to come to that conclusion first.



    A hierarchical menu like iPod uses is essentially a modified outline format. It's a very simple organizational scheme. There's nothing unique here, folks. Anybody who says it was their idea always leaves out the key final word "first."



    The spirit of patents is to protect a truly unique idea like the formula for Coca-Cola or eHarmony's personality matching system. Patenting such a simple concept like iPod's interface is like claiming you're the best student in math class because you finished the work sheet before everyone else. So what? You were first. Big deal.
  • Reply 11 of 28
    deapeajaydeapeajay Posts: 909member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by CosmoNut

    This whole mess with Creative reminds me of something I heard in this week's "This Week in Media" podcast. One of the contributers made a really good point:



    His argument was that, with all of these tech people being trained in problem solving in the same core ways, it's bound to happen that a solution to a problem will inherently present itself in a particular form because that's essentially the "box" in which engineers think. The only difference between engineers is who happens to come to that conclusion first.



    A hierarchical menu like iPod uses is essentially a modified outline format. It's a very simple organizational scheme. There's nothing unique here, folks. Anybody who says it was their idea always leaves out the key final word "first."



    The spirit of patents is to protect a truly unique idea like the formula for Coca-Cola or eHarmony's personality matching system. Patenting such a simple concept like iPod's interface is like claiming you're the best student in math class because you finished the work sheet before everyone else. So what? You were first. Big deal.




    I totally agree.



    Has Apple ever sued anyone for using a column interface? I think it's just other company's trying to get money out of Apple. They counter sue, but they've never picked a fight over the column view have they?
  • Reply 12 of 28
    a_greera_greer Posts: 4,594member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by AppleInsider





    Although the eMac has already taken its final curtain-call and exited the consumer scene, Apple continues to fill orders for the friendly looking PowerPC-based Macs for its needy educational buyers.




    You misspelled prudent or wise; Have you been in a high school lab in 4 or 5 years? kids are BRUTAL to them...I would be really hesetent about rolling out LCDs to 12-17 year old brats that fill todays high schools.
  • Reply 13 of 28
    Quote:

    Originally posted by a_greer

    You misspelled prudent or wise; Have you been in a high school lab in 4 or 5 years? kids are BRUTAL to them...I would be really hesetent about rolling out LCDs to 12-17 year old brats that fill todays high schools.



    Wouldn't a little bit of Plexiglas solve that problem? Just picture an iMac with a Plexiglas covering, it would be cheap and easy to replace after the little brats scratched it all up.
  • Reply 14 of 28
    vinney57vinney57 Posts: 1,162member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Booga

    I agree. I don't think even Apple would be that stupid in its product timing.



    'cos Apple are a really stupid company right?
  • Reply 15 of 28
    dcqdcq Posts: 349member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by DeaPeaJay

    I totally agree.



    Has Apple ever sued anyone for using a column interface? I think it's just other company's trying to get money out of Apple. They counter sue, but they've never picked a fight over the column view have they?




    Patents and "intellectual property" (run-amuck) will be the death of our civilization. I'm prepared to put serious money up on that proposition.



    ...If I survive the end of the world, I'll be knocking on what's left of yall's doors to collect... \
  • Reply 16 of 28
    lgnomelgnome Posts: 81member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by DCQ

    Patents and "intellectual property" (run-amuck) will be the death of our civilization. I'm prepared to put serious money up on that proposition.



    ...If I survive the end of the world, I'll be knocking on what's left of yall's doors to collect... \






    ummmm.. You can put your money where your mouth is actually:



    http://www.longbets.org/



    From Danny Hillis and Jeff Bezos...
  • Reply 17 of 28
    michaelbmichaelb Posts: 242member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Johnny Mozzarella

    nagromme is right.

    The real issue is who invented(or who pantented) the column view first.

    NeXT is earliest implementation of this that I am aware of.





    There were designs for it far earlier than NeXT. One was in design for the Lisa interface (late 70s):



    http://home.san.rr.com/deans/prototypes.html



    (sixth picture down)



    Which in turn was based on a Smalltalk interface, which in turn goes back to early developments from Doug Engelbart's team.



    It's a very old concept, dating from before software interfaces were even patentable.



    Creative got their patent because they added "on a portable device." And because the USPTO is fundamentally broken when it comes to software patents.
  • Reply 18 of 28
    recompilerecompile Posts: 100member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by a_greer

    You misspelled prudent or wise; Have you been in a high school lab in 4 or 5 years? kids are BRUTAL to them...I would be really hesetent about rolling out LCDs to 12-17 year old brats that fill todays high schools.



    From what I understand, they are to equip the LCD's with a "Bullet proof" type of screen protector layer that will make it more durable than the former crt screens. Also the crt is the most expensive part on the current emac, for production and repairs. The new imac design will greatly reduce the cost and allow that cost to be applied to the computing itself. The reason the imac lcd sunflower type or any other lcd version was not implemented to schools, was because of the more fragile LCDs and the moving parts (i.e. the screen mount). with the current all in one imac design, and a new design on the LCD, those issues are to be resolved. This is great news for educators, and for mac as well, as the latest look will be what people are learning on, not the old "Console TV look". Not to mention the new fire in software due to the sale to parsons, and the networking and even the integration with the ipod use in education.
  • Reply 19 of 28
    Quote:

    Originally posted by michaelb

    There were designs for it far earlier than NeXT. One was in design for the Lisa interface (late 70s):



    http://home.san.rr.com/deans/prototypes.html



    (sixth picture down)



    Which in turn was based on a Smalltalk interface, which in turn goes back to early developments from Doug Engelbart's team.



    It's a very old concept, dating from before software interfaces were even patentable.



    Creative got their patent because they added "on a portable device." And because the USPTO is fundamentally broken when it comes to software patents.




    Wow! Thanks for that great link!

    I had a feeling I had seen in in the old OS 6/7 days but couldn't remember for sure. Apple has done so much work in GUI development that they probably have some prior art for just about anything you could imagine.



    One of the other distinguishing characteristics of Apple's iPod menu system is the transitions that it employs.



    When you make a menu selection the whole screen slides to the left and the sub menus slide in. As you drill down and back up it is easy to understand exactly what is happening. These transitions give a sense of continuity and frame of reference that I have never seen before in a menu system.



    Every other similar menu system on portable devices just cuts to the next screen with no transition. Creative has started to copy this concept in their players as well.

  • Reply 20 of 28
    eckingecking Posts: 1,588member
    Yes creative apple got you into meetings so they could LOOK at your music players interface so they could steal it. Instead of just sending a secratery to the store to BUY IT so they could look at it and copy it.



    HEAD OF CREATIVE: Mr Jobs is that a camera in your hat?



    JOBS: NO! Now show me that NOMAD interface again!



    HEAD OF CREATIVE: Ok here it is....



    JOBS: OMFG I love this shit!



    HEAD OF CREATIVE: I know it's nice huh?



    JOBS: Yeah I've never seen anything like this before, no one could make an interface so perfect and complex....yet simple!



    HEAD OF CREATIVE: Yeah it took every ounce of R&D we had but it's done.



    JOBS: (suddenly) John did you get that feed? OVER.



    IVE: (through a microphone) Yeah Steve. OVER.



    HEAD OF CREATIVE: What was that? Who are you talking to? Who's voice was that?



    JOBS: Ummm no one. OMG I just remember I left some Tofu burgers on the grill - I gotta go - bye!



    And a few months later the iPod was born.
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