Repairing permissions doesn't hurt anything that I'm aware of, and for me, usually only takes a couple minutes to do, so I don't see the point in trying to discourage it.
It never should do harm (and when it does, something was really messed up to begin with), nor does it take away much time.
The only problem some people (like me) are having is the associated mythical "effect". It usually doesn't have any whatsoever.
But, again, Apple goes and does what it does during the update, removing critical parts of that software, without warning, and thereby causing problems.
Care to elaborate what you mean by "removing critical parts"?
Repairing Permission is not, I repeat, NOT, necessary in 99.999% of all installs.
It is, however, something that should be done periodically just to check... so why not just do it before an install? Do it not because it's necessary to do it *at that time*, but just because it's a reminder to do it *at all*.
And for the 0.001% of people who might be affected by an improper permission borking an install.. hey, they're covered.
It is, however, something that should be done periodically just to check... so why not just do it before an install?
Probably because there is an (extremely slight) chance that an application will expect permissions different from those in the BOMs, and will fail to work once permissions have been repaired.
Probably because there is an (extremely slight) chance that an application will expect permissions different from those in the BOMs, and will fail to work once permissions have been repaired.
woah! Now I'm confused. Are you actually saying that people should actually never repair permissions because that might break something?
I suppose Kickaha makes a good point. Also, as I've just found out, repairing permissions in 10.4.x on an Intel-based mac is much, much, much, much faster than in 10.3.9 running on a 500 MHz G4, so on newer hardware isn't so much of a hassle.
I've never repaired permissions in my life (between Public Beta and 10.4.7) and here I am, happily typing away in Safari...I just couldn't be doing that if permissions got fux0r3d and all hell broke loose. Or could I? Moral: repairing permission may solve some problems...but most likely not.
Probably because there is an (extremely slight) chance that an application will expect permissions different from those in the BOMs, and will fail to work once permissions have been repaired.
Er.
Then explain how it ever worked in the first place... if the default state is those from the BOMs, and the application did something that altered one of those, it had to work in the first place to get running to alter it. Assuming that the developer had two neurons in their skull to rub together, the same situation as at install would be detected, and the permission would be changed back to what the app needs.
Much more likely that a furbotzed permission would create an issue that would trip up Software Update, since it *doesn't* expect things to change.
Repairing permissions can protect against (rare) Very Bad Things(tm) on system updates, and *MIGHT* cause issues with poorly written apps. Thanks, but I think the balance definitely falls into running it periodically.
woah! Now I'm confused. Are you actually saying that people should actually never repair permissions because that might break something?
I suppose Kickaha makes a good point. Also, as I've just found out, repairing permissions in 10.4.x on an Intel-based mac is much, much, much, much faster than in 10.3.9 running on a 500 MHz G4, so on newer hardware isn't so much of a hassle.
Given the age of your machine, I'd wager that your /Library/Receipts folder is stuffed to the gills. The more files in there, the more BOMs the repair process has to sift through to find the correct permissions for things.
As I've said, Apple themselves recommends these methods. What more do you need to know?
But, then they pander to the "Oh my-God, I don't understand this, it's too HARD!", crowd, by not requiring it.
What they should do, as I've also said, is to make it part of their update procedures, so that it can't be avoided.
Will this prevent all problems? Of course not! But many "problems" are not actually problems, in the sense of being bugs in the update, other than in the sense that Apple DOES warn people that certain third party software, such as hacks, might cause unexpected problems with the update.
That's also pretty explicit. But, again, Apple goes and does what it does during the update, removing critical parts of that software, without warning, and thereby causing problems.
So, yes, this is Apple's fault.
But, fault also lies with the people who rush out to be the first to download, and install, an update, or upgrade, without waiting to see what problems they might expect from it, and how to avoid it.
But, again, Apple doesn't warn about this either, and the update just appears in Software Update, so people, without thinking, install it.
Properly? How so, and you need to be explicit AND exact!
Since, I've dumped my Crude Rude Tude Dude (CRTD), about 20 HeX cooks have piped in, and not a single one offers the same recipe. The simplest (i. e. Occum's Razor or more simply KISS) is what I've always used since 10.3 (or so); Backup (or have your files secured on a regular basis), then upgrade via Software Update. If there's a problem; Do a new install from the system disks, System Update, then restore. It doesn't get any simpler than that!
And like I said previously, please provide an "OFFICIAL" Apple website web page (posts in their discussion groups don't count, since these aren't "OFFICIAL" Apple statements) where this 12 step AA update procedure is CLEARLY and UNAMBIGUSOSLY stated, with a time stamp, if you please!
So let's see now, who doesn't get it? Word! Seamless! Get it? Microsoft does, apparently Apple doesn't IN YOUR CASE, apparently Apple does IN MY CASE!
Somehow this whole discussion reminds me of a dog who won't let go of a bone, the question is, who's the dog?
Care to elaborate what you mean by "removing critical parts"?
It can be any part of the program stored in any one of the System folders, or the library.
When the installer sees third party software, it might remove part of it there. System hacks, for example, are particularly subject to this removal. If something is in the user installable part of the prefs panel, it might be removed, or disabled. That has happened to me, and I had to do a bit of re-installing to get things working again. Apple does warn that something like that could happen. I also had it happen to a file from Norton Anti-Virus, Photoshop, etc. sometimes I can find the removed file, and sometimes I even know where it belongs, but often not.
Properly? How so, and you need to be explicit AND exact!
Since, I've dumped my Crude Rude Tude Dude (CRTD), about 20 HeX cooks have piped in, and not a single one offers the same recipe. The simplest (i. e. Occum's Razor or more simply KISS) is what I've always used since 10.3 (or so); Backup (or have your files secured on a regular basis), then upgrade via Software Update. If there's a problem; Do a new install from the system disks, System Update, then restore. It doesn't get any simpler than that!
And like I said previously, please provide an "OFFICIAL" Apple website web page (posts in their discussion groups don't count, since these aren't "OFFICIAL" Apple statements) where this 12 step AA update procedure is CLEARLY and UNAMBIGUSOSLY stated, with a time stamp, if you please!
So let's see now, who doesn't get it? Word! Seamless! Get it? Microsoft does, apparently Apple doesn't IN YOUR CASE, apparently Apple does IN MY CASE!
Somehow this whole discussion reminds me of a dog who won't let go of a bone, the question is, who's the dog?
Sorry, but IMHO, game over!
I am being explicit. Being exact? now that's impossible, which is why you asked.
I don't know of any 12 step process, but there should at least be a one, or two step process. From their trouble shooting page, under before you install.
"Use Disk Utility to check the Mac OS X volume before installing, if you are installing or reinstalling to correct an issue. Tip: Mac OS X 10.3 and 10.4 and later check the target disk automatically during installation."
Repairing permissions before an update is as necessary as wearing a seat belt when you get in a car. It is a pre-cautionary measure. You never know when it will save you.
Anyone who recommends against doing so is not a very smart cookie.
Repairing permissions before an update is as necessary as wearing a seat belt when you get in a car. It is a pre-cautionary measure. You never know when it will save you.
Anyone who recommends against doing so is not a very smart cookie.
I am being explicit. Being exact? now that's impossible, which is why you asked.
I don't know of any 12 step process, but there should at least be a one, or two step process. From their trouble shooting page, under before you install.
"Use Disk Utility to check the Mac OS X volume before installing, if you are installing or reinstalling to correct an issue. Tip: Mac OS X 10.3 and 10.4 and later check the target disk automatically during installation."
Repairing Permission is not, I repeat, NOT, necessary in 99.999% of all installs....It is, however, something that should be done periodically just to check... so why not just do it before an install? Do it not because it's necessary to do it *at that time*, but just because it's a reminder to do it *at all*....And for the 0.001% of people who might be affected by an improper permission borking an install.. hey, they're covered.
This is the most sensible of posts in the whole Permissions Debate (tm). Along with the seat-belt analogy.
I'm just a regular ol' user, so I'll repair permissions, then update, repair permissions every now and then, and hell, I feel like repairing permissions later today, because it makes me feel good. Most important to me is Peace of Mind. Some suggest meditation and yoga, well, sometimes repairing permissions, like defragging your hard disk in Windows, has the same effect for me. Hell, just had breakfast, I'm gonna brush my teeth now and defrag my Windows hard disks in the meantime.
In any case, if not for Kickaha's post above, I would have ended up even more confused after two pages of this thread on the Permissions Debate (tm). But teh snappy is a smooth, warm feeling (like peeing in your pants*) and seeing 10.4.7 in About this Mac rounds off the warm and fuzzy experience that is the Mac. And I feel good that I have the latest *free* goodness of all the hard work of Apple engineering, some of the best minds on the planet. Plus I can stride about in confidence that my iBook is one of the most secure computing platforms in the world, and I can laugh at all the Antivirus/ Firewall/ Norton/ McAffee/ Anti-Spyware blah blah blah nonsense that chews up resources and severely interferes with the user experience on a Windows PC.
*This is strictly a joke, do not attempt in public.
PS. Franksargent: What the f0xk is your problem now still?
Comments
Originally posted by JeffDM
Repairing permissions doesn't hurt anything that I'm aware of, and for me, usually only takes a couple minutes to do, so I don't see the point in trying to discourage it.
It never should do harm (and when it does, something was really messed up to begin with), nor does it take away much time.
The only problem some people (like me) are having is the associated mythical "effect". It usually doesn't have any whatsoever.
Originally posted by melgross
But, again, Apple goes and does what it does during the update, removing critical parts of that software, without warning, and thereby causing problems.
Care to elaborate what you mean by "removing critical parts"?
It is, however, something that should be done periodically just to check... so why not just do it before an install? Do it not because it's necessary to do it *at that time*, but just because it's a reminder to do it *at all*.
And for the 0.001% of people who might be affected by an improper permission borking an install.. hey, they're covered.
Originally posted by Kickaha
It is, however, something that should be done periodically just to check... so why not just do it before an install?
Probably because there is an (extremely slight) chance that an application will expect permissions different from those in the BOMs, and will fail to work once permissions have been repaired.
Originally posted by Chucker
Probably because there is an (extremely slight) chance that an application will expect permissions different from those in the BOMs, and will fail to work once permissions have been repaired.
woah! Now I'm confused. Are you actually saying that people should actually never repair permissions because that might break something?
I suppose Kickaha makes a good point. Also, as I've just found out, repairing permissions in 10.4.x on an Intel-based mac is much, much, much, much faster than in 10.3.9 running on a 500 MHz G4, so on newer hardware isn't so much of a hassle.
Originally posted by Chucker
Probably because there is an (extremely slight) chance that an application will expect permissions different from those in the BOMs, and will fail to work once permissions have been repaired.
Er.
Then explain how it ever worked in the first place... if the default state is those from the BOMs, and the application did something that altered one of those, it had to work in the first place to get running to alter it. Assuming that the developer had two neurons in their skull to rub together, the same situation as at install would be detected, and the permission would be changed back to what the app needs.
Much more likely that a furbotzed permission would create an issue that would trip up Software Update, since it *doesn't* expect things to change.
Repairing permissions can protect against (rare) Very Bad Things(tm) on system updates, and *MIGHT* cause issues with poorly written apps. Thanks, but I think the balance definitely falls into running it periodically.
Originally posted by Mr. H
woah! Now I'm confused. Are you actually saying that people should actually never repair permissions because that might break something?
I suppose Kickaha makes a good point. Also, as I've just found out, repairing permissions in 10.4.x on an Intel-based mac is much, much, much, much faster than in 10.3.9 running on a 500 MHz G4, so on newer hardware isn't so much of a hassle.
Given the age of your machine, I'd wager that your /Library/Receipts folder is stuffed to the gills. The more files in there, the more BOMs the repair process has to sift through to find the correct permissions for things.
Originally posted by melgross
You're the one not reading this properly.
As I've said, Apple themselves recommends these methods. What more do you need to know?
But, then they pander to the "Oh my-God, I don't understand this, it's too HARD!", crowd, by not requiring it.
What they should do, as I've also said, is to make it part of their update procedures, so that it can't be avoided.
Will this prevent all problems? Of course not! But many "problems" are not actually problems, in the sense of being bugs in the update, other than in the sense that Apple DOES warn people that certain third party software, such as hacks, might cause unexpected problems with the update.
That's also pretty explicit. But, again, Apple goes and does what it does during the update, removing critical parts of that software, without warning, and thereby causing problems.
So, yes, this is Apple's fault.
But, fault also lies with the people who rush out to be the first to download, and install, an update, or upgrade, without waiting to see what problems they might expect from it, and how to avoid it.
But, again, Apple doesn't warn about this either, and the update just appears in Software Update, so people, without thinking, install it.
Properly? How so, and you need to be explicit AND exact!
Since, I've dumped my Crude Rude Tude Dude (CRTD), about 20 HeX cooks have piped in, and not a single one offers the same recipe. The simplest (i. e. Occum's Razor or more simply KISS) is what I've always used since 10.3 (or so); Backup (or have your files secured on a regular basis), then upgrade via Software Update. If there's a problem; Do a new install from the system disks, System Update, then restore. It doesn't get any simpler than that!
And like I said previously, please provide an "OFFICIAL" Apple website web page (posts in their discussion groups don't count, since these aren't "OFFICIAL" Apple statements) where this 12 step AA update procedure is CLEARLY and UNAMBIGUSOSLY stated, with a time stamp, if you please!
So let's see now, who doesn't get it? Word! Seamless! Get it? Microsoft does, apparently Apple doesn't IN YOUR CASE, apparently Apple does IN MY CASE!
Somehow this whole discussion reminds me of a dog who won't let go of a bone, the question is, who's the dog?
Sorry, but IMHO, game over!
Originally posted by Mr. H
woah! Now I'm confused. Are you actually saying that people should actually never repair permissions because that might break something?
No, definitely not. However, I have heard of such rare cases.
Personally, I agree that Apple might as well make it run automatically.
Originally posted by Kickaha
Thank fucking god.
Agreed.
Originally posted by Chucker
Care to elaborate what you mean by "removing critical parts"?
It can be any part of the program stored in any one of the System folders, or the library.
When the installer sees third party software, it might remove part of it there. System hacks, for example, are particularly subject to this removal. If something is in the user installable part of the prefs panel, it might be removed, or disabled. That has happened to me, and I had to do a bit of re-installing to get things working again. Apple does warn that something like that could happen. I also had it happen to a file from Norton Anti-Virus, Photoshop, etc. sometimes I can find the removed file, and sometimes I even know where it belongs, but often not.
Originally posted by franksargent
Properly? How so, and you need to be explicit AND exact!
Since, I've dumped my Crude Rude Tude Dude (CRTD), about 20 HeX cooks have piped in, and not a single one offers the same recipe. The simplest (i. e. Occum's Razor or more simply KISS) is what I've always used since 10.3 (or so); Backup (or have your files secured on a regular basis), then upgrade via Software Update. If there's a problem; Do a new install from the system disks, System Update, then restore. It doesn't get any simpler than that!
And like I said previously, please provide an "OFFICIAL" Apple website web page (posts in their discussion groups don't count, since these aren't "OFFICIAL" Apple statements) where this 12 step AA update procedure is CLEARLY and UNAMBIGUSOSLY stated, with a time stamp, if you please!
So let's see now, who doesn't get it? Word! Seamless! Get it? Microsoft does, apparently Apple doesn't IN YOUR CASE, apparently Apple does IN MY CASE!
Somehow this whole discussion reminds me of a dog who won't let go of a bone, the question is, who's the dog?
Sorry, but IMHO, game over!
I am being explicit. Being exact? now that's impossible, which is why you asked.
I don't know of any 12 step process, but there should at least be a one, or two step process. From their trouble shooting page, under before you install.
"Use Disk Utility to check the Mac OS X volume before installing, if you are installing or reinstalling to correct an issue. Tip: Mac OS X 10.3 and 10.4 and later check the target disk automatically during installation."
Too bad the updates don't check the disk as well.
http://docs.info.apple.com/article.h...=106692#Before
Anyone who recommends against doing so is not a very smart cookie.
Originally posted by solsun
Repairing permissions before an update is as necessary as wearing a seat belt when you get in a car. It is a pre-cautionary measure. You never know when it will save you.
Anyone who recommends against doing so is not a very smart cookie.
Not true at all. Just the opposite, if anything.
Some very smart people indeed don't recommend it.
http://daringfireball.net/search?q=r...ng+permissions
Originally posted by melgross
Not true at all. Just the opposite, if anything.
Some very smart people indeed don't recommend it.
http://daringfireball.net/search?q=r...ng+permissions
I said cookie, not people.
Originally posted by solsun
I said cookie, not people.
Ok
Originally posted by melgross
I am being explicit. Being exact? now that's impossible, which is why you asked.
I don't know of any 12 step process, but there should at least be a one, or two step process. From their trouble shooting page, under before you install.
"Use Disk Utility to check the Mac OS X volume before installing, if you are installing or reinstalling to correct an issue. Tip: Mac OS X 10.3 and 10.4 and later check the target disk automatically during installation."
Too bad the updates don't check the disk as well.
http://docs.info.apple.com/article.h...=106692#Before
IF you are installing or reinstalling to CORRECT an ISSUE
A definition of exact: Marked by strict and particular and complete accordance with fact.
A definition of ambigious: Equivocal: open to two or more interpretations; or of uncertain nature or significance; or (often) intended to mislead.
Funny thing is, both your links fully support my opinion! Thanks. 8)
But, this IS the "OFFICIAL" Apple document on updating HeX;
http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=303602
Follow those steps EXACTLY, especially number 7, otherwise you are DOOMED!
PS - "12 steps" and "AA" might be a facetious comment aimed at all this HeX exorcism/voodoo/meth lab cooks BS!
Repairing Permission is not, I repeat, NOT, necessary in 99.999% of all installs....It is, however, something that should be done periodically just to check... so why not just do it before an install? Do it not because it's necessary to do it *at that time*, but just because it's a reminder to do it *at all*....And for the 0.001% of people who might be affected by an improper permission borking an install.. hey, they're covered.
This is the most sensible of posts in the whole Permissions Debate (tm). Along with the seat-belt analogy.
I'm just a regular ol' user, so I'll repair permissions, then update, repair permissions every now and then, and hell, I feel like repairing permissions later today, because it makes me feel good. Most important to me is Peace of Mind. Some suggest meditation and yoga, well, sometimes repairing permissions, like defragging your hard disk in Windows, has the same effect for me.
In any case, if not for Kickaha's post above, I would have ended up even more confused after two pages of this thread on the Permissions Debate (tm). But teh snappy is a smooth, warm feeling (like peeing in your pants*) and seeing 10.4.7 in About this Mac rounds off the warm and fuzzy experience that is the Mac. And I feel good that I have the latest *free* goodness of all the hard work of Apple engineering, some of the best minds on the planet. Plus I can stride about in confidence that my iBook is one of the most secure computing platforms in the world, and I can laugh at all the Antivirus/ Firewall/ Norton/ McAffee/ Anti-Spyware blah blah blah nonsense that chews up resources and severely interferes with the user experience on a Windows PC.
*This is strictly a joke, do not attempt in public.
PS. Franksargent: What the f0xk is your problem now still?