Not a big difference yet simply because laptops generally don't allow you to put in more than 4GB of RAM. Once you have 8GB and up you will see some benefits of 64-bit. There is the chance there could be a benefit from extra registers in a 64-bit but that remains to be seen.
I remember seeing some phenomenal speed improvements on some media encoding benchmarks but didn't look too hard to see anything comprehensive. I think the software has to be compiled for 64 bit to use the extra registers.
Wait for Merom. Faster, cheaper and only a couple of months away.
Might be more than a couple of months before we see a Merom MacBook Pro. Also, only the second iteration of Merom (due early next year) will be matched with an overhauled motherboard design (Santa Rosa) with significantly faster bus speeds. Like others have said, the first Merom MBPs are probably going to be ~20% faster than current ones, and you won't yet be able to put enough RAM into them for 64 bitness to make a difference. Compared to the herculean leap in performance from the PBG4 to the MBP CoreDuo, the first Meroms will seem like a minor tweak.
I'd say that if you're really looking for a leap over the current MBP, wait for Merom/Santa Rosa MBPs with > 4 GB RAM. Otherwise, the current MBP is pretty kickin'.
Wait for Merom. Faster, cheaper and only a couple of months away.
The first Meroms are supposed to be released sometime in the forth quarter, September, if we're lucky, October, or possibly even November, if we're not.
The first Meroms are supposed to be released sometime in the forth quarter, September, if we're lucky, October, or possibly even November, if we're not.
Remember too that the OS and the Apps have to be able to take advantage of 64bit goodness. That means 10.5 Leopard, and the ability to run 64bit Windows if you are really into that, PLUS supporting applications that take advantage of 64bit.
Right now a Merom would be great and would lead to a speed increase of some kind in any of Apple's line... but don't be fooled by the 64bit mind-job. Look at the clear lack of 64bit apps for Windows XP 64bit and you'll see.
The first Meroms are supposed to be released sometime in the forth quarter, September, if we're lucky, October, or possibly even November, if we're not.
In the link above in my previous post Intel expects 35% of their mobile chip shipments to be Merom BY December. I doubt they will wait until November to release. August or September, October at the latest IMO.
The first Meroms are supposed to be released sometime in the forth quarter, September, if we're lucky, October, or possibly even November, if we're not.
Where are you getting all of that play? Intel said August, I am presuming they really mean it. This isn't IBM or Motorola with their shipping dates that meant something else.
Where are you getting all of that play? Intel said August, I am presuming they really mean it. This isn't IBM or Motorola with their shipping dates that meant something else.
Here's the thing. Intel first said that is "should" first show up at the end of August, but then said it would be out in quantity "sometime" in the 4th quarter. As reports are all over the map, it seems sensible to be conservative.
Apple moved the dev conf back two months. Why? No one really knows, though there has been a lot of speculation on that. It's the OS! No, it's the chips!
While Intel has moved the deliverence of both Woodcrest and Conroe forwards, they didn't do so with Merom. Why?
For every release date that says August, there is another one that says 4th quarter.
Notice that in this more recent article, that even though August is stated as the date, a shipping date hadn't been set. This is what I'm reading. Other articles suspect that we won't see them in shipping quantities until September, when Intel will be starting to switch the production from Yonah. I don't see a problem with making one third of shipping mobile chips by sometime in December. Even if the switch doesn't start in earnest until the beginning of October, that gives them three months. September would give them four.
Don't forget the problems they had in getting Yonah out the door. That was the reason why the MBP was delayed. Even the iMac was in short supply for the first few weeks, Other manufacturers complained, at the time, that they weren't getting enough chips.That's what happens with a new chip design. Woodcrest is out, but hasn't appeared in much of anything yet.
So, while I hope the Merom upgraded machines will be announced during the conf, I wouldn't count on a shipping date just yet. Apple has announced new machines several times in the past with ship dated that extended up to two months. I hope that not the case here.
Since we're in July now realistically Apple's strategy for iMac, MacMini, MacBook and MacBookPro would be to target Merom for the christmas frenzy season. Meaning just a few months away to do refreshes across the line, that is, targeting September or October for the Oct-Nov-Dec quarter.
Looking at any sort of upgrade in August or this month does not make sense, given Apple's focus on WWDC-Leopard and the Mac Pro.
If there are any refreshes across the current Intel line up this month or August, that would be "too early" before the Christmas quarter.
Therefore again, we're looking at for the Oct-Nov-Dec quarter, models moving up to higher speed Yonahs, some other spec changes, and Merom likely on the MacBookPro, and then iMac goes Merom or Conroe. iMac going Merom or Conroe would be related to which is the easier internal-engineering pathway.
As a sidenote, again, since we're in July/August, iPod updates will come at the earliest September, again in the run-up to Christmas. August would be "too early".
So currently, at least to me, the "Apple roadmap" (an oxymoron of sorts) seems clear.
Then once they clear out the Christmas frenzy quarter, Macworld will be the space for the next level of innovation to prevent a sharp dropoff in sales. There will be something cool, and "one more thing" to inject some fresh blood into the Jan-Feb-March quarter.
Personally, I think the Intel transition has gone as good as it can get, Apple needs to clean up some hardware and software issues in the meantime, August for WWDC-Leopard and Mac Pro, and then we'll just have to wait until Christmas lead-up for refreshed product lines.
It is likely that sales of iPods are starting to get lost due to the lines getting a bit stale and lack of "more features" so we'll just have to see what Apple comes up with in the next few months. There is enough iPod momentum going on to carry them through to Sep/Oct for a nice fresh funky iPod which will do a little more to be exciting, but not too much to be confusing.
Thus, ends my commentary on teh Apple roadmappy.
edit0: MacPros and xServes almost simultaneously will be nice. But we really don't know what's happening on the xServe side of things, do we..?
edit1: Personally for some reason I have a psychological issue with anything under 2.0ghz at this stage. But whatever, MacMini and MacBooks under 2.0ghz will do fine for what they are, and what they need to do.
edit2: I wonder if Apple should have continued availability of PowerBook G4 for the Adobe/Macromedia pro users. For those whom Rosetta is not workable and want some value for money. Rather than these pro users having to look to old stock at Apple resellers or eBay. However these users may form a minority or they may already have PowerBooks/ PowerMacs to tide them through and so not a major target for Apple.
We should understand by now that MacPro will be majorly targeted towards the Pro Video crowd using Apple's Universal range of software. This is where the business, growth and margins are, not the print design/web design market which is pretty much chewed up by PC/Windows now. This also clearly sidesteps any Rosetta issues in the new fandangled Apple Pro Computers lineup.
It is likely that sales of iPods are starting to get lost due to the lines getting a bit stale and lack of "more features" so we'll just have to see what Apple comes up with in the next few months. There is enough iPod momentum going on to carry them through to Sep/Oct for a nice fresh funky iPod which will do a little more to be exciting, but not too much to be confusing.
I would call it a seasonal market because the big spending for youth is toward the Winter holidays, though the device could use a few more features. It would also help to not cripple features that are built into the chips they use.
I don't know if anyone would appreciate a consumer media product that changed more than once a year.
edit2: I wonder if Apple should have continued availability of PowerBook G4 for the Adobe/Macromedia pro users. For those whom Rosetta is not workable and want some value for money. Rather than these pro users having to look to old stock at Apple resellers or eBay. However these users may form a minority or they may already have PowerBooks/ PowerMacs to tide them through and so not a major target for Apple.
It's interesting to note, even though it's not about the Powerbook but rather the iBook, but Maine just renewed Apple's contract for 4 more years, and extended it with another $41 million or so. But, instead of going with the MacBooks, they are getting iBooks.
It's interesting to note, even though it's not about the Powerbook but rather the iBook, but Maine just renewed Apple's contract for 4 more years, and extended it with another $41 million or so. But, instead of going with the MacBooks, they are getting iBooks.
Now I understand why Apple extended its G4 supply contract with Freescale till 2008.
Quote:
Originally posted by sunilraman
Therefore again, we're looking at for the Oct-Nov-Dec quarter, models moving up to higher speed Yonahs, some other spec changes, and Merom likely on the MacBookPro, and then iMac goes Merom or Conroe. iMac going Merom or Conroe would be related to which is the easier internal-engineering pathway.
Not easiest: cheapest.
If it costs Apple a couple of millions to reengineer the iMac Internals and they earn of $200 per unit by using Conroe instead of Merom. It's easy to guess what they'll do.
Quote:
Then once they clear out the Christmas frenzy quarter, Macworld will be the space for the next level of innovation to prevent a sharp dropoff in sales. There will be something cool, and "one more thing" to inject some fresh blood into the Jan-Feb-March quarter.
MacBook nano
(Whatever. "Mini" is not a premium branding, so I don't think apple will use the MacBook mini moniker)
Quote:
We should understand by now that MacPro will be majorly targeted towards the Pro Video crowd using Apple's Universal range of software. This is where the business, growth and margins are, not the print design/web design market which is pretty much chewed up by PC/Windows now. This also clearly sidesteps any Rosetta issues in the new fandangled Apple Pro Computers lineup.
I am in the print/design business and 99% of the designstudios we work for use Macs.
The problem is, though, these designstudios don't purchase very often new hardware (once in the 3-5 years).
Also they more often switch from Powermac to the 20"iMac because of the pretty cheap and fast enough solution it offers in comparision with the Powermac/separate screen option.
Webdesign however is PC/window domain, indeed.
Some designwork is still done on a Mac but programming etc. is windows/linux territory.
I think Apple has some growing options in this market thanks to Bootcamp and Parallels.
Good comments, Gar ...Merom being pin compatible with Yonah means we're likely to see iMacs refreshed to Merom not Conroe by the end of this year... cheapest, easiest. MacBook nano. Heh 8) we'll add that to: TabletMac, MacPDA, MacMediaCentre(iHome) for Macworld January 2007 predictions
...I am in the print/design business and 99% of the designstudios we work for use Macs. The problem is, though, these designstudios don't purchase very often new hardware (once in the 3-5 years). Also they more often switch from Powermac to the 20"iMac because of the pretty cheap and fast enough solution it offers in comparision with the Powermac/separate screen option.
Well, no more iMac g5 for them, I guess. Studios will need to go Powermac g5 if they need to upgrade "urgently". At least 6-8 months before Adobe CS3..! By "urgently" I suppose I mean those designers/ teams that have been requesting upgrading from their powermac g4s for quite some while..!
Question: your clients and coworkers, those that really need mobility, I suppose they are hanging on tightly to their PowerBooks? Or generally your experience is all with more desktop-based users....?
Good comments, Gar ...Merom being pin compatible with Yonah means we're likely to see iMacs refreshed to Merom not Conroe by the end of this year... cheapest, easiest.
My conclusion was the opposite of yours
Conroe is about $200 per unit cheaper than Merom at (±) the same clockspeed.
So that's a million dollars per 5000 units.
$10 million investment is earned back if apple sold 50.000 conroe iMacs
I don't know what it costs to redesign a mobo to support another processor.
But I believe it is worth to switch from Yonah/Merom to Conroe.
Quote:
Originally posted by gar
...I am in the print/design business and 99% of the designstudios we work for use Macs. The problem is, though, these designstudios don't purchase very often new hardware (once in the 3-5 years). Also they more often switch from Powermac to the 20"iMac because of the pretty cheap and fast enough solution it offers in comparision with the Powermac/separate screen option.
Quote:
Originally posted by sunilraman
Well, no more iMac g5 for them, I guess. Studios will need to go Powermac g5 if they need to upgrade "urgently". At least 6-8 months before Adobe CS3..! By "urgently" I suppose I mean those designers/ teams that have been requesting upgrading from their powermac g4s for quite some while..!
The funny thing is though that a client of me was complaining about the fact that his brand new Intel iMacs where not that much faster in Adobe CS2 than the dual processor G4 towers he was used to use.
He was chocked when I told him the applications where emulated.
Quote:
Question: your clients and coworkers, those that really need mobility, I suppose they are hanging on tightly to their PowerBooks? Or generally your experience is all with more desktop-based users....?
Another client of me was ditching his 15" Powerbook 1.67Ghz as soon the MBP came out, I don't know about his companion though. (15" Powerbook 1.5Ghz).
Comments
Originally posted by hmurchison
Not a big difference yet simply because laptops generally don't allow you to put in more than 4GB of RAM. Once you have 8GB and up you will see some benefits of 64-bit. There is the chance there could be a benefit from extra registers in a 64-bit but that remains to be seen.
I remember seeing some phenomenal speed improvements on some media encoding benchmarks but didn't look too hard to see anything comprehensive. I think the software has to be compiled for 64 bit to use the extra registers.
Originally posted by melgross
Are you talking about the T2700? It couldn't cost twice that. That would be $1,274. Somethings wrong there.
Or do you mean the low voltage model?
Oops reading comprehension is fundamental. I transposed the numbers. My bad.
Originally posted by ShawnJ
I sure hope Apple uses this chip. I'll be buying a MBP in the next month for law school.
Wait for Merom. Faster, cheaper and only a couple of months away.
Originally posted by backtomac
Wait for Merom. Faster, cheaper and only a couple of months away.
Might be more than a couple of months before we see a Merom MacBook Pro. Also, only the second iteration of Merom (due early next year) will be matched with an overhauled motherboard design (Santa Rosa) with significantly faster bus speeds. Like others have said, the first Merom MBPs are probably going to be ~20% faster than current ones, and you won't yet be able to put enough RAM into them for 64 bitness to make a difference. Compared to the herculean leap in performance from the PBG4 to the MBP CoreDuo, the first Meroms will seem like a minor tweak.
I'd say that if you're really looking for a leap over the current MBP, wait for Merom/Santa Rosa MBPs with > 4 GB RAM. Otherwise, the current MBP is pretty kickin'.
Originally posted by backtomac
Wait for Merom. Faster, cheaper and only a couple of months away.
The first Meroms are supposed to be released sometime in the forth quarter, September, if we're lucky, October, or possibly even November, if we're not.
Originally posted by melgross
The first Meroms are supposed to be released sometime in the forth quarter, September, if we're lucky, October, or possibly even November, if we're not.
I'll wait
Right now a Merom would be great and would lead to a speed increase of some kind in any of Apple's line... but don't be fooled by the 64bit mind-job. Look at the clear lack of 64bit apps for Windows XP 64bit and you'll see.
Wait for Merom. Faster, cheaper and only a couple of months away.
Hopefully less whiny, cooler to the touch, and with correct application of thermal paste.
Originally posted by melgross
The first Meroms are supposed to be released sometime in the forth quarter, September, if we're lucky, October, or possibly even November, if we're not.
In the link above in my previous post Intel expects 35% of their mobile chip shipments to be Merom BY December. I doubt they will wait until November to release. August or September, October at the latest IMO.
Originally posted by melgross
The first Meroms are supposed to be released sometime in the forth quarter, September, if we're lucky, October, or possibly even November, if we're not.
Where are you getting all of that play? Intel said August, I am presuming they really mean it. This isn't IBM or Motorola with their shipping dates that meant something else.
Originally posted by DHagan4755
Where are you getting all of that play? Intel said August, I am presuming they really mean it. This isn't IBM or Motorola with their shipping dates that meant something else.
Here's the thing. Intel first said that is "should" first show up at the end of August, but then said it would be out in quantity "sometime" in the 4th quarter. As reports are all over the map, it seems sensible to be conservative.
Apple moved the dev conf back two months. Why? No one really knows, though there has been a lot of speculation on that. It's the OS! No, it's the chips!
While Intel has moved the deliverence of both Woodcrest and Conroe forwards, they didn't do so with Merom. Why?
For every release date that says August, there is another one that says 4th quarter.
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060217-6211.html
http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=2546
Notice that in this more recent article, that even though August is stated as the date, a shipping date hadn't been set. This is what I'm reading. Other articles suspect that we won't see them in shipping quantities until September, when Intel will be starting to switch the production from Yonah. I don't see a problem with making one third of shipping mobile chips by sometime in December. Even if the switch doesn't start in earnest until the beginning of October, that gives them three months. September would give them four.
Don't forget the problems they had in getting Yonah out the door. That was the reason why the MBP was delayed. Even the iMac was in short supply for the first few weeks, Other manufacturers complained, at the time, that they weren't getting enough chips.That's what happens with a new chip design. Woodcrest is out, but hasn't appeared in much of anything yet.
So, while I hope the Merom upgraded machines will be announced during the conf, I wouldn't count on a shipping date just yet. Apple has announced new machines several times in the past with ship dated that extended up to two months. I hope that not the case here.
Looking at any sort of upgrade in August or this month does not make sense, given Apple's focus on WWDC-Leopard and the Mac Pro.
If there are any refreshes across the current Intel line up this month or August, that would be "too early" before the Christmas quarter.
Therefore again, we're looking at for the Oct-Nov-Dec quarter, models moving up to higher speed Yonahs, some other spec changes, and Merom likely on the MacBookPro, and then iMac goes Merom or Conroe. iMac going Merom or Conroe would be related to which is the easier internal-engineering pathway.
As a sidenote, again, since we're in July/August, iPod updates will come at the earliest September, again in the run-up to Christmas. August would be "too early".
So currently, at least to me, the "Apple roadmap" (an oxymoron of sorts) seems clear.
Then once they clear out the Christmas frenzy quarter, Macworld will be the space for the next level of innovation to prevent a sharp dropoff in sales. There will be something cool, and "one more thing" to inject some fresh blood into the Jan-Feb-March quarter.
Personally, I think the Intel transition has gone as good as it can get, Apple needs to clean up some hardware and software issues in the meantime, August for WWDC-Leopard and Mac Pro, and then we'll just have to wait until Christmas lead-up for refreshed product lines.
It is likely that sales of iPods are starting to get lost due to the lines getting a bit stale and lack of "more features" so we'll just have to see what Apple comes up with in the next few months. There is enough iPod momentum going on to carry them through to Sep/Oct for a nice fresh funky iPod which will do a little more to be exciting, but not too much to be confusing.
Thus, ends my commentary on teh Apple roadmappy.
edit0: MacPros and xServes almost simultaneously will be nice. But we really don't know what's happening on the xServe side of things, do we..?
edit1: Personally for some reason I have a psychological issue with anything under 2.0ghz at this stage. But whatever, MacMini and MacBooks under 2.0ghz will do fine for what they are, and what they need to do.
edit2: I wonder if Apple should have continued availability of PowerBook G4 for the Adobe/Macromedia pro users. For those whom Rosetta is not workable and want some value for money. Rather than these pro users having to look to old stock at Apple resellers or eBay. However these users may form a minority or they may already have PowerBooks/ PowerMacs to tide them through and so not a major target for Apple.
We should understand by now that MacPro will be majorly targeted towards the Pro Video crowd using Apple's Universal range of software. This is where the business, growth and margins are, not the print design/web design market which is pretty much chewed up by PC/Windows now. This also clearly sidesteps any Rosetta issues in the new fandangled Apple Pro Computers lineup.
Originally posted by sunilraman
It is likely that sales of iPods are starting to get lost due to the lines getting a bit stale and lack of "more features" so we'll just have to see what Apple comes up with in the next few months. There is enough iPod momentum going on to carry them through to Sep/Oct for a nice fresh funky iPod which will do a little more to be exciting, but not too much to be confusing.
I would call it a seasonal market because the big spending for youth is toward the Winter holidays, though the device could use a few more features. It would also help to not cripple features that are built into the chips they use.
I don't know if anyone would appreciate a consumer media product that changed more than once a year.
Originally posted by sunilraman
edit2: I wonder if Apple should have continued availability of PowerBook G4 for the Adobe/Macromedia pro users. For those whom Rosetta is not workable and want some value for money. Rather than these pro users having to look to old stock at Apple resellers or eBay. However these users may form a minority or they may already have PowerBooks/ PowerMacs to tide them through and so not a major target for Apple.
It's interesting to note, even though it's not about the Powerbook but rather the iBook, but Maine just renewed Apple's contract for 4 more years, and extended it with another $41 million or so. But, instead of going with the MacBooks, they are getting iBooks.
http://macdailynews.com/index.php/we...omments/10032/
Originally posted by melgross
It's interesting to note, even though it's not about the Powerbook but rather the iBook, but Maine just renewed Apple's contract for 4 more years, and extended it with another $41 million or so. But, instead of going with the MacBooks, they are getting iBooks.
http://macdailynews.com/index.php/we...omments/10032/
Now I understand why Apple extended its G4 supply contract with Freescale till 2008.
Originally posted by sunilraman
Therefore again, we're looking at for the Oct-Nov-Dec quarter, models moving up to higher speed Yonahs, some other spec changes, and Merom likely on the MacBookPro, and then iMac goes Merom or Conroe. iMac going Merom or Conroe would be related to which is the easier internal-engineering pathway.
Not easiest: cheapest.
If it costs Apple a couple of millions to reengineer the iMac Internals and they earn of $200 per unit by using Conroe instead of Merom. It's easy to guess what they'll do.
Then once they clear out the Christmas frenzy quarter, Macworld will be the space for the next level of innovation to prevent a sharp dropoff in sales. There will be something cool, and "one more thing" to inject some fresh blood into the Jan-Feb-March quarter.
MacBook nano
(Whatever. "Mini" is not a premium branding, so I don't think apple will use the MacBook mini moniker)
We should understand by now that MacPro will be majorly targeted towards the Pro Video crowd using Apple's Universal range of software. This is where the business, growth and margins are, not the print design/web design market which is pretty much chewed up by PC/Windows now. This also clearly sidesteps any Rosetta issues in the new fandangled Apple Pro Computers lineup.
I am in the print/design business and 99% of the designstudios we work for use Macs.
The problem is, though, these designstudios don't purchase very often new hardware (once in the 3-5 years).
Also they more often switch from Powermac to the 20"iMac because of the pretty cheap and fast enough solution it offers in comparision with the Powermac/separate screen option.
Webdesign however is PC/window domain, indeed.
Some designwork is still done on a Mac but programming etc. is windows/linux territory.
I think Apple has some growing options in this market thanks to Bootcamp and Parallels.
...I am in the print/design business and 99% of the designstudios we work for use Macs. The problem is, though, these designstudios don't purchase very often new hardware (once in the 3-5 years). Also they more often switch from Powermac to the 20"iMac because of the pretty cheap and fast enough solution it offers in comparision with the Powermac/separate screen option.
Well, no more iMac g5 for them, I guess. Studios will need to go Powermac g5 if they need to upgrade "urgently". At least 6-8 months before Adobe CS3..! By "urgently" I suppose I mean those designers/ teams that have been requesting upgrading from their powermac g4s for quite some while..!
Question: your clients and coworkers, those that really need mobility, I suppose they are hanging on tightly to their PowerBooks? Or generally your experience is all with more desktop-based users....?
Originally posted by sunilraman
Good comments, Gar
My conclusion was the opposite of yours
Conroe is about $200 per unit cheaper than Merom at (±) the same clockspeed.
So that's a million dollars per 5000 units.
$10 million investment is earned back if apple sold 50.000 conroe iMacs
I don't know what it costs to redesign a mobo to support another processor.
But I believe it is worth to switch from Yonah/Merom to Conroe.
Originally posted by gar
...I am in the print/design business and 99% of the designstudios we work for use Macs. The problem is, though, these designstudios don't purchase very often new hardware (once in the 3-5 years). Also they more often switch from Powermac to the 20"iMac because of the pretty cheap and fast enough solution it offers in comparision with the Powermac/separate screen option.
Originally posted by sunilraman
Well, no more iMac g5 for them, I guess. Studios will need to go Powermac g5 if they need to upgrade "urgently". At least 6-8 months before Adobe CS3..! By "urgently" I suppose I mean those designers/ teams that have been requesting upgrading from their powermac g4s for quite some while..!
The funny thing is though that a client of me was complaining about the fact that his brand new Intel iMacs where not that much faster in Adobe CS2 than the dual processor G4 towers he was used to use.
He was chocked when I told him the applications where emulated.
Question: your clients and coworkers, those that really need mobility, I suppose they are hanging on tightly to their PowerBooks? Or generally your experience is all with more desktop-based users....?
Another client of me was ditching his 15" Powerbook 1.67Ghz as soon the MBP came out, I don't know about his companion though. (15" Powerbook 1.5Ghz).
everybody else holds thight to what they have.