The celeron 300 would be fine. But the 486's are a little older than the suggested timeframe. Everything in Office runs fine on my K6-2 300. Why do you need to upgrade the software? Win98se will handle anything you need to do.
Seb,
I know what the average person thinks quite well thank you. I've seen depts (in a university, a private school, and in public schools) basically ignore all the things that the iMac offers, things which they say they want, to buy PC's which may or may not pull those things off as well, but at least cost a whole lot less.
None. NONE, of my current associates outside of university uses a mac. Amongst friends and acquaintances exactly two use a mac (a graphic artist and a photographer) and while both still have their macs both of them bought PC's as their latest machines (simply because of cost). When you add this all up, from Ph.D's to teenage nephews (and their parents who make these purchases) you get a pretty accurate picture of the average buyer.
Don't believe, just look at my campus computer store. People come in and out of it all day, they fondle the iMac, they Ooh and Ahh, then they buy a PC. Ask 'em why, go on ask them. What do they say? Too expensive! and my friend, lover, spouse, sibling, child etc etc... said it's too slow and it's not 'standard' and you can't find enough software for it. That is exactly what they say. Maybe FUD, but that is what they think, period. But we really don't need my anecdotal evidence, just look at the market: Apple has about 3.5% of the market, yet (even with their limited advert spending) they get a huge proportion of the technology press. People know what an iMac is, it's a computing icon, but 98%+ choose NOT to buy it. Why do you think that is?
Before anybody feels the urge to flame the '98%', think that iMac is about a 1/4 of mac volume, so maybe that makes it close to 1% of the total computer market on any given year. <1% for a computer that is instantly recognizable throughout the world. That says pretty clearly that people know what it is, yet choose to buy something else.
Remember the Gateway customer who made national news when, after terrible service and being unable to get his Gateway to work, smashed it with a sledge hammer in front of a Gateway store? It made the news because the store had him arrested. Now, wouldn't he be great in a Switch ad?
Remember the Gateway customer who made national news when, after terrible service and being unable to get his Gateway to work, smashed it with a sledge hammer in front of a Gateway store? It made the news because the store had him arrested. Now, wouldn't he be great in a Switch ad? </strong><hr></blockquote>
That would truly take combative advertising campaigns to a new level. I'd LOVE to see it. Apple, get that guy, give him a mac, but make sure you keep him happy. <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" />
Add nothing for the processor as it is just fine. It's not the old Celeron and it's built on the P4 core and is much faster than what Apple is offering. Lets not make up stuff now.
It's got 2 FireWire ports in addition to several USB ports.
Also, why bash the PC Card slot? That's a plus for expansion.
Most importantly, it's extremely customizable. No one is shoving a slow SuperDrive at you just because you'd like a larger HD and or a faster Processor.
Oh my God, a PCMCIA card slot? Wow!! <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
Anyway, extra prime TV airtime for the iMac is always good. Look at it this way...
The message Gateway is trying to send:
"Don't switch to Mac yet, look at what we have to offer."
instead of:
"Hey, we've got better deals than Dell."
Seriously, how many Mac people are going to switch? How many fence sitters are there? Why isn't Gateway going after a company like Dell, where most of their potential customers might be?
Who says they aren't going after Dell, HPaq and Sony? None of them offer all-in-ones so the very fact that they are offering one just might sway a few people to get the Gateway instead of one of the other companies low ends. It doesn't have to be a direct marketing campaign to go after those other companies, they just are by being in the open market.
I don't think an Apple user would switch to PC because of this (of course), but if a potential switcher (or a happy PC user) is looking for a small integrated computer for their dorm room, they may go for the Profile. Whatever the case, this is Apple's chance to either lower the prices, or offer more bang for the buck. Competition (as much as you loath the other product) is always a good thing for the consumer.
Patchouli, associative advertising doesn't work if the real message you're trying to send is masked.
Why would they take the windy road when they cold just dive right into a Dell vs Gateway comparison?
The Profile 4 is more of the same in a long line of All-in-One PC failures. WebPC, the SlimTop, the Netvista X40...I don't think I've ever seen a Profile outside of a Gateway Country, come to think of it.
All these will end up doing is increase the iMac's visibility, I suspect.
Yes, this is true. Like I said, if this makes Apple respond by cutting prices or updating the iMacs (or letting consumers at least customize them) - then the exposure that they get from Gateway (free advertising) will be (hopefully) beneficial. However, I still think Dell, HPaq and other PC makers may get a little nervous if the Profile is a success. I think it's safe to say that whoever currently owns an iMac, isn't going to run out and switch to a Profile PC.
what i hope to see is the rumored next round of apple "switch" commercials....i think this jab by gateway may make apple step up the original airing dates
and if anyone finds these *Gateway* commercials online, would you please share?
That would truly take combative advertising campaigns to a new level. I'd LOVE to see it. Apple, get that guy, give him a mac, but make sure you keep him happy. <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>
We should at least try spreading the rumor on the web that Apple has the Gateway smasher in an upcoming ad. Would love to be there when the news gets back to Gateway.
1. There is no possible way in all hell that a 1.7 Ghz Celeron with a GeForce2 MX400 could get 2.5x the FPS in Quake 3 than a 800 Mhz G4 with a Geforce 4 MX440. (Plus, who's going to play Q3 at 640x480 on these machines?)
2. This is an absolutely hilarious tidbit from the PDF: [quote] We installed Adobe Acrobat 5.0 to the Gateway systems. Adobe Acrobat 5.0 is a
pre-installed application on the iMac systems. <hr></blockquote>
Acrobat, a fairly essential application, isn't even preinstalled. When you factor in the software bundle of the iMac (yeah, I know Acrobat is free, but there's other stuff too), the Profile is probably more expensive than the iMac.
how many people are going to see these ads saying "the profile 4 has this, the iMac has that" about a dozen times and walk away knowing, with 100% accuracy what an iMac is, and what it looks like.
how many could see a picture of the profile 4 and say "hey, that's the new profile 4!"
just doesn't roll off the tongue.
as for the prices, i did a comparison in another thread in GD (which is why it's nice to keep them all in the same place rather than starting a new one in another forum)
but i'll post it here as well for the lazy.
[quote]well, i looked at the Tech specs from the article linked above. (the .pdf)
at the end, they have a table of the setup on the different machines.
i have both models set to exactly what the tech specs on the test are, execpt for a smaller HD on the high end system. i also included speakers for the high end profile, as they are included with the iMac.
so go to configre and do the following. from a base of $1,499
processor to 2.66Ghz. (+250)
RAM to 512MB (+160) already at $1,900
HD to 80GB (+60)
CDRW-DVD-RAM (+100)
AV software (+69)
speakers (+50) or (+25)
you now have a total of $2,163 vs $1,949 for the iMac. that does not include a DVD burner, but does have an extra 20GB of HD space. a pioneer DVD burner would add at least another $300 if you could put that in instead of the CDRW-DVD-ROM drive, but you can't.
a DVD combo drive, on the other hand, runs you about $70 retail.
also the second price i have there is with the cheap-o speakers. not sure how they weigh in against the iMacs pro speakers, but it didn't really make that big of a difference anyway. i'm sure i could also get the iMac price down a boatload by buying RAM 3rd party, but i wanted to stick with configs. straight from the manf. i also could have saved money on the PC's by buying antivirus software 3rd party, but again went with the manf. pricing. the ram from Apple vs. the AV from Gateway probably level out. if anything, you would save more by buying RAM 3rd party.
i took another look at the configs between the iMac and the Profile for the low end machines. turns out those aren't even close on features either. did my first pricing wrong. with equivelent hardware it tests out like this.
Profile base price of $999
RAM to 256 (+80)
HD to 40GB (+50)
CDRW Combo drive (+180)
Modem (+30)
AV software (+69)
Speakers (+25)
final price of $1,433.00 vs. the same iMac price of $1,499.00. (the compared the second iMac with the combo drive)
$66 difference between them on the low end, with the PC being cheaper.
$214 on the high end, with the Mac being cheaper.
for those who say that Apple has insanely high prices *ahem, Matsu* , i think this would show that is not the case. this is about the only product competing in the same space. i'd take those benchmarks with a grain of salt, but still, your OS and multimedia app. choices are so rotton with the gateway bundle.
a Gateway comissioned test to find out how fast the Gateway is in comparison to a competitor's product holds about as much weight as Steve's Photoshop bakeoffs. if you won't accept the one, why accept the other? <hr></blockquote>
edit: note, these numbers are for the hardware as tested in the Gateway tests, as per their .pdf regarding the issue.
Apple needs to rectify this situation immediately! First, they need to air advertisements showing the iMac's drive tray kicking a Profile 4 off a table to re-establish electromechanical superiority. Then they must address the key points of cold startup speed, large PDF loading and JavaScript performance.
Gateway could have done much better with their comparison, their design, and the name of the computer. However, maybe they think of the campaign as a 'door in the face' type thing, where Apple provides consumers with an attractive product and then Gateway brings in a cheaper product which people are then more likely to buy than if it were presented alone.
The only reason I can see for the failure of the Gateway (and it's considerable) is that people don't like AIO computers.
I suspect that even mac users don't really love AIO, they just tolerate them because it's the only semi-affordable way to get a mac.
If a semi-affordable tower were available, iMac sales would drop by half over-night.
So the Profile might not exactly kill the mac, but such an ad would certainly help gateway tout the advantages of it's overall, non-AIO, line-up (cost and spec) over the Mac. It's like, "OK, if you really want an AIO, we can give you that, but whatever you want, we can give you much better performance (or at least numbers) at a much better price.
It helps Gateway (and PC's in general) drive a giant stake into Cupertino's RDF emitters. Such a thing gets the ball rolling, it gets consumers (even on the mac side) to think about it for a second, it gets the press to jump on a bandwagon and stress value (dollars and spec only) more. Basically it gets the tech industry to call Apple out for their absurd pricing (given the specifications of most systems).
And the specially selected photoshop filter bakeoff does?
Love this quote from the article you linked "The 17-inch iMac starts at $1,299 and was announced amid much fanfare last month." Does anyone know where I can buy the $1299 17" one?
Comments
Seb,
I know what the average person thinks quite well thank you. I've seen depts (in a university, a private school, and in public schools) basically ignore all the things that the iMac offers, things which they say they want, to buy PC's which may or may not pull those things off as well, but at least cost a whole lot less.
None. NONE, of my current associates outside of university uses a mac. Amongst friends and acquaintances exactly two use a mac (a graphic artist and a photographer) and while both still have their macs both of them bought PC's as their latest machines (simply because of cost). When you add this all up, from Ph.D's to teenage nephews (and their parents who make these purchases) you get a pretty accurate picture of the average buyer.
Don't believe, just look at my campus computer store. People come in and out of it all day, they fondle the iMac, they Ooh and Ahh, then they buy a PC. Ask 'em why, go on ask them. What do they say? Too expensive! and my friend, lover, spouse, sibling, child etc etc... said it's too slow and it's not 'standard' and you can't find enough software for it. That is exactly what they say. Maybe FUD, but that is what they think, period. But we really don't need my anecdotal evidence, just look at the market: Apple has about 3.5% of the market, yet (even with their limited advert spending) they get a huge proportion of the technology press. People know what an iMac is, it's a computing icon, but 98%+ choose NOT to buy it. Why do you think that is?
Before anybody feels the urge to flame the '98%', think that iMac is about a 1/4 of mac volume, so maybe that makes it close to 1% of the total computer market on any given year. <1% for a computer that is instantly recognizable throughout the world. That says pretty clearly that people know what it is, yet choose to buy something else.
Remember the Gateway customer who made national news when, after terrible service and being unable to get his Gateway to work, smashed it with a sledge hammer in front of a Gateway store? It made the news because the store had him arrested. Now, wouldn't he be great in a Switch ad?
Profile - $999
iMac - $1299
Slam-dunk for Gateway, right?
Except you got to add $130 for a non-crippled proc (the base 1.7 GHz has only 128K cache).
Except you have to add $50 for a 40 GB HD upgrade.
Except you have to add $80 for a CDRW.
Except you have to add $30 for a modem.
Grand total:
Profile - $1289
iMac - $1299
You save $10!!!! W00t!
Nice try, Gateway.
Still, if Gateway want to fight, Apple might consider a stripped-down model of their own to fight back.....
Jet
[ 08-26-2002: Message edited by: Jet Powers ]</p>
<strong>My pitch for a get-even ad:
Remember the Gateway customer who made national news when, after terrible service and being unable to get his Gateway to work, smashed it with a sledge hammer in front of a Gateway store? It made the news because the store had him arrested. Now, wouldn't he be great in a Switch ad?
That would truly take combative advertising campaigns to a new level. I'd LOVE to see it. Apple, get that guy, give him a mac, but make sure you keep him happy. <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" />
<strong>There is only one spec that matters:
Profile - $999
iMac - $1299
Slam-dunk for Gateway, right?
Except you got to add $130 for a non-crippled proc (the base 1.7 GHz has only 128K cache).
Except you have to add $50 for a 40 GB HD upgrade.
Except you have to add $80 for a CDRW.
Except you have to add $30 for a modem.
Grand total:
Profile - $1289
iMac - $1299
You save $10!!!! W00t!
Nice try, Gateway.
Still, if Gateway want to fight, Apple might consider a stripped-down model of their own to fight back.....
Jet
[ 08-26-2002: Message edited by: Jet Powers ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
Ummmmmmmm hold on man. You forgot my Firewire!
<strong>
Ummmmmmmm hold on man. You forgot my Firewire!</strong><hr></blockquote>
Oh, thank god for that PC card slot!!!!!
Jet
#1- Its a PC
#2- It runs Windows
Nothing else needs to be said.
<strong>There is only one spec that matters:
Profile - $999
iMac - $1299
Slam-dunk for Gateway, right?
Except you got to add $130 for a non-crippled proc (the base 1.7 GHz has only 128K cache).
Except you have to add $50 for a 40 GB HD upgrade.
Except you have to add $80 for a CDRW.
Except you have to add $30 for a modem.
Grand total:
Profile - $1289
iMac - $1299
You save $10!!!! W00t!
Nice try, Gateway.
Still, if Gateway want to fight, Apple might consider a stripped-down model of their own to fight back.....
Jet
[ 08-26-2002: Message edited by: Jet Powers ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
Nice Try Jet, but I don't think so.
Add nothing for the processor as it is just fine. It's not the old Celeron and it's built on the P4 core and is much faster than what Apple is offering. Lets not make up stuff now.
It's got 2 FireWire ports in addition to several USB ports.
Also, why bash the PC Card slot? That's a plus for expansion.
Most importantly, it's extremely customizable. No one is shoving a slow SuperDrive at you just because you'd like a larger HD and or a faster Processor.
Btw, the $1299 iMac IS stripped down.
[ 08-26-2002: Message edited by: Patchouli ]</p>
Anyway, extra prime TV airtime for the iMac is always good. Look at it this way...
The message Gateway is trying to send:
"Don't switch to Mac yet, look at what we have to offer."
instead of:
"Hey, we've got better deals than Dell."
Seriously, how many Mac people are going to switch? How many fence sitters are there? Why isn't Gateway going after a company like Dell, where most of their potential customers might be?
I don't think an Apple user would switch to PC because of this (of course), but if a potential switcher (or a happy PC user) is looking for a small integrated computer for their dorm room, they may go for the Profile. Whatever the case, this is Apple's chance to either lower the prices, or offer more bang for the buck. Competition (as much as you loath the other product) is always a good thing for the consumer.
Why would they take the windy road when they cold just dive right into a Dell vs Gateway comparison?
The Profile 4 is more of the same in a long line of All-in-One PC failures. WebPC, the SlimTop, the Netvista X40...I don't think I've ever seen a Profile outside of a Gateway Country, come to think of it.
All these will end up doing is increase the iMac's visibility, I suspect.
[ 08-26-2002: Message edited by: Eugene ]</p>
and if anyone finds these *Gateway* commercials online, would you please share?
[ 08-26-2002: Message edited by: Max8319 ]</p>
<strong>
That would truly take combative advertising campaigns to a new level. I'd LOVE to see it. Apple, get that guy, give him a mac, but make sure you keep him happy. <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>
We should at least try spreading the rumor on the web that Apple has the Gateway smasher in an upcoming ad. Would love to be there when the news gets back to Gateway.
[ 08-27-2002: Message edited by: murk ]</p>
1. There is no possible way in all hell that a 1.7 Ghz Celeron with a GeForce2 MX400 could get 2.5x the FPS in Quake 3 than a 800 Mhz G4 with a Geforce 4 MX440. (Plus, who's going to play Q3 at 640x480 on these machines?)
2. This is an absolutely hilarious tidbit from the PDF: [quote] We installed Adobe Acrobat 5.0 to the Gateway systems. Adobe Acrobat 5.0 is a
pre-installed application on the iMac systems. <hr></blockquote>
Acrobat, a fairly essential application, isn't even preinstalled. When you factor in the software bundle of the iMac (yeah, I know Acrobat is free, but there's other stuff too), the Profile is probably more expensive than the iMac.
how many people are going to see these ads saying "the profile 4 has this, the iMac has that" about a dozen times and walk away knowing, with 100% accuracy what an iMac is, and what it looks like.
how many could see a picture of the profile 4 and say "hey, that's the new profile 4!"
just doesn't roll off the tongue.
as for the prices, i did a comparison in another thread in GD (which is why it's nice to keep them all in the same place rather than starting a new one in another forum)
but i'll post it here as well for the lazy.
[quote]well, i looked at the Tech specs from the article linked above. (the .pdf)
at the end, they have a table of the setup on the different machines.
i have both models set to exactly what the tech specs on the test are, execpt for a smaller HD on the high end system. i also included speakers for the high end profile, as they are included with the iMac.
so go to configre and do the following. from a base of $1,499
processor to 2.66Ghz. (+250)
RAM to 512MB (+160) already at $1,900
HD to 80GB (+60)
CDRW-DVD-RAM (+100)
AV software (+69)
speakers (+50) or (+25)
you now have a total of $2,163 vs $1,949 for the iMac. that does not include a DVD burner, but does have an extra 20GB of HD space. a pioneer DVD burner would add at least another $300 if you could put that in instead of the CDRW-DVD-ROM drive, but you can't.
a DVD combo drive, on the other hand, runs you about $70 retail.
also the second price i have there is with the cheap-o speakers. not sure how they weigh in against the iMacs pro speakers, but it didn't really make that big of a difference anyway. i'm sure i could also get the iMac price down a boatload by buying RAM 3rd party, but i wanted to stick with configs. straight from the manf. i also could have saved money on the PC's by buying antivirus software 3rd party, but again went with the manf. pricing. the ram from Apple vs. the AV from Gateway probably level out. if anything, you would save more by buying RAM 3rd party.
i took another look at the configs between the iMac and the Profile for the low end machines. turns out those aren't even close on features either. did my first pricing wrong. with equivelent hardware it tests out like this.
Profile base price of $999
RAM to 256 (+80)
HD to 40GB (+50)
CDRW Combo drive (+180)
Modem (+30)
AV software (+69)
Speakers (+25)
final price of $1,433.00 vs. the same iMac price of $1,499.00. (the compared the second iMac with the combo drive)
$66 difference between them on the low end, with the PC being cheaper.
$214 on the high end, with the Mac being cheaper.
for those who say that Apple has insanely high prices *ahem, Matsu* , i think this would show that is not the case. this is about the only product competing in the same space. i'd take those benchmarks with a grain of salt, but still, your OS and multimedia app. choices are so rotton with the gateway bundle.
a Gateway comissioned test to find out how fast the Gateway is in comparison to a competitor's product holds about as much weight as Steve's Photoshop bakeoffs. if you won't accept the one, why accept the other? <hr></blockquote>
edit: note, these numbers are for the hardware as tested in the Gateway tests, as per their .pdf regarding the issue.
[ 08-27-2002: Message edited by: alcimedes ]</p>
Gateway could have done much better with their comparison, their design, and the name of the computer. However, maybe they think of the campaign as a 'door in the face' type thing, where Apple provides consumers with an attractive product and then Gateway brings in a cheaper product which people are then more likely to buy than if it were presented alone.
I suspect that even mac users don't really love AIO, they just tolerate them because it's the only semi-affordable way to get a mac.
If a semi-affordable tower were available, iMac sales would drop by half over-night.
So the Profile might not exactly kill the mac, but such an ad would certainly help gateway tout the advantages of it's overall, non-AIO, line-up (cost and spec) over the Mac. It's like, "OK, if you really want an AIO, we can give you that, but whatever you want, we can give you much better performance (or at least numbers) at a much better price.
It helps Gateway (and PC's in general) drive a giant stake into Cupertino's RDF emitters. Such a thing gets the ball rolling, it gets consumers (even on the mac side) to think about it for a second, it gets the press to jump on a bandwagon and stress value (dollars and spec only) more. Basically it gets the tech industry to call Apple out for their absurd pricing (given the specifications of most systems).
<strong>
None of the things mentioned in that test relate to the average things that people want to do - in my experience.
.....
And in response to iMacs not selling well:
<a href="http://www.usatoday.com/tech/techreviews/products/desktopcomputers/2002-08-25-apple-imac_x.htm"; target="_blank">Apple can't keep up with demand for newest iMac</a>
</strong><hr></blockquote>
And the specially selected photoshop filter bakeoff does?
Love this quote from the article you linked "The 17-inch iMac starts at $1,299 and was announced amid much fanfare last month." Does anyone know where I can buy the $1299 17" one?
Just nitpicking, but I just had to say it.