I think that at least when you click the Zoom button the transition to the zoomed/unzoomed state should be quickly animated to help you visually orient yourself in the new window.
Silly. There should be an option to toggle between the two. Not that hard to implement.
The problem with options is that you never quite know where to stop. How about an option to move the widgets over to the right side, since some people expect that from other systems? How about an option to change their colors, since some people's color blindness may affect legibility? An option to get rid of Minimize for those who don't use it? Or to change Minimize to do window shading?
The problem with options is that you never quite know where to stop. How about an option to move the widgets over to the right side, since some people expect that from other systems? How about an option to change their colors, since some people's color blindness may affect legibility? An option to get rid of Minimize for those who don't use it? Or to change Minimize to do window shading?
All we want is one option in "Appearance" in Systen Prefs with a checkbox, that after it's checked the green button changes its function from zoom to maximize, that's is all. It's something switchers would welcome, and most others would too.
See, that's entirely the wrong way to go about it. Make it a modifier key, as it was in OS9, and it ensures that *no one* can expect it to be the default.
That means developers. Intelligent Zoom is not a trivial thing for a lot of apps to do, and devs are a lazy lot (I know from personal experience). If you give them an out of "Oh, well, most (and by most I mean a lot (and by a lot I mean some (and by some I mean a couple))) people will use Maximize, so I won't bother coding that up," they'll take it. If you look at a lot of the areas where there aren't user options, they're done that way for this reason - it's not about the user, it's about forcing developers to create a good user experience.
If we have to go backwards, then it should be by the smallest increment possible - modifier key on Zoom. OS9 used Shift, I'd actually lobby for using Opt, since it's, y'know, an option.
The problem with options is that you never quite know where to stop. How about an option to move the widgets over to the right side, since some people expect that from other systems? How about an option to change their colors, since some people's color blindness may affect legibility? An option to get rid of Minimize for those who don't use it? Or to change Minimize to do window shading?
Well, if we go by that definition, then I don't want to have an option where I can change the colors of Close/Min/Max/Zoom. Or the color of the progress bars from blue to dark grey. That's useless. But it is there.
It should be a "hidden" option, known only by those that dislike the current Zoom functionality (documented clearly on the OS documentation, available through, for example, a modifier key.)
If I can have an utterly useless modifier key for slowing down the Genie effect as an option, why not have something that is actually useful for some people?
For a multitasking OS, a 'maximize' button is not a good idea. It's one of the reasons I hate Windows so much. And now that you can get 20", 24" and 30" displays...maximize makes even less sense.
If an app benefits from filling up the whole screen...it should be custom coded to provide such an interface (Aperture, iPhoto 6, etc.)...OS X should not just expand a window to fill the screen: it's just a dumb idea...
For a multitasking OS, a 'maximize' button is not a good idea. It's one of the reasons I hate Windows so much. And now that you can get 20", 24" and 30" displays...maximize makes even less sense.
If an app benefits from filling up the whole screen...it should be custom coded to provide such an interface (Aperture, iPhoto 6, etc.)...OS X should not just expand a window to fill the screen: it's just a dumb idea...
No, actually, every window should be fullscreen and just use Exposé to get between them.
While I agree about filling window size to its content" being in theory better than "maximize to fullscreen" (especially in a multitasking OS) I would make these comments:
- The "zoom to fit" function in Mac OS X does not work properly in many many many applications, so I never use it. It it were more clever I would use it.
- Some profesionnal applications rarely need to be used with multi-level drag & drop. Take Macromedia Dreamweaver or Flash for example. They have an interface clearly made originally for a fullscreen MS Windows mode: you need to get as much space as possible (ie fullscreen) because there are many options and timelines goes big). Hey, not everyone has a Cinema Display 30"...
So there is a workspace made from a global scene on the center and several floating windows around, on the edges of the screen, docked or separated from each others by a few pixels when undocked. You see a disturbing desktop picture between all these floating windows, or worse a desktop picture covered by many icons and several other windows not part of this application.
And sometimes you are misleaded and you even click on the Finder background while you just wanted to click on a floating window border, part of the application you are using. This is very disturbing for a noob who sees his floating windows suddenly disappearing.
It is not the case in the Windows version of Flash (or other apps) because all is always stacked in an homogeneous environment. You are not disturbed by other graphic elements outside of the frontmost application, and you can not be randomly teleported to the desktop w/o wanting it.
But Apple was aware of this problem of clutter, remember the single window mode in Mac OS X DP4 and Public Beta in 2000? Later they designed their apps differently to take care of this issue, like iMovie. But so much other apps are not designed like that.
Open an image in Preview. Hit Command-Shift-F. Done. You've got your maximize. Command-F does the same in most other apps that support full-screen mode (DVD player, QT Pro, etc).
But Apple was aware of this problem of clutter, remember the single window mode in Mac OS X DP4 and Public Beta in 2000? Later they designed their apps differently to take care of this issue, like iMovie. But so much other apps are not designed like that.
I think you're confusing Single Window mode and MDI from Windows?
Single window mode showed a single window, and the desktop. It did not stretch the window to full screen, nor did it prevent you from swapping to another app on accident. Clicking on the desktop would take you to the Finder. (Which frankly, I always thought was a bug.)
MDI OTOH covers the entire screen with a grey canvas, and then throws the windows of the app on it. It wasn't really 'single window', but you could minimize all the other windows but the one you wanted to work on, or maximize a window. (Which made MDI unnecessary, of course.)
Neither really gets to the heart of the matter, or is a clean fix. \
Agreed about zoom not working as advertised in all apps, and that *is* damned annoying. It's one of the top grievances in UI design among app writers, that Apple hasn't taken up the reins of that task in Cocoa. Maybe at WWDC? Twould be nice.
Comments
Originally posted by gregmightdothat
Just for the record, in Classic apps, you could shift click the resize button to make the window fill the screen.
While I typically like the Resize the way it is now, that feature's pretty sorely missing.
One of the only elements in the OS that is worse than it used to be.
Originally posted by Chucker
I wish people who want maximize would use a system that allows maximize so we people who want zoom can use zoom.
Silly. There should be an option to toggle between the two. Not that hard to implement.
The old Shift-Zoom = Maximize was a good middle ground.
Originally posted by Kickaha
Not hard, just unnecessary.
The old Shift-Zoom = Maximize was a good middle ground.
But where is it now?
Originally posted by Ireland
But where is it now?
You may have heard, but OS 9 and OS X have different codebases. Some things got left out
Originally posted by Gene Clean
Silly. There should be an option to toggle between the two. Not that hard to implement.
The problem with options is that you never quite know where to stop. How about an option to move the widgets over to the right side, since some people expect that from other systems? How about an option to change their colors, since some people's color blindness may affect legibility? An option to get rid of Minimize for those who don't use it? Or to change Minimize to do window shading?
Originally posted by Chucker
The problem with options is that you never quite know where to stop. How about an option to move the widgets over to the right side, since some people expect that from other systems? How about an option to change their colors, since some people's color blindness may affect legibility? An option to get rid of Minimize for those who don't use it? Or to change Minimize to do window shading?
All we want is one option in "Appearance" in Systen Prefs with a checkbox, that after it's checked the green button changes its function from zoom to maximize, that's is all. It's something switchers would welcome, and most others would too.
That means developers. Intelligent Zoom is not a trivial thing for a lot of apps to do, and devs are a lazy lot (I know from personal experience). If you give them an out of "Oh, well, most (and by most I mean a lot (and by a lot I mean some (and by some I mean a couple))) people will use Maximize, so I won't bother coding that up," they'll take it. If you look at a lot of the areas where there aren't user options, they're done that way for this reason - it's not about the user, it's about forcing developers to create a good user experience.
If we have to go backwards, then it should be by the smallest increment possible - modifier key on Zoom. OS9 used Shift, I'd actually lobby for using Opt, since it's, y'know, an option.
Originally posted by gregmightdothat
Just for the record, in Classic apps, you could shift click the resize button to make the window fill the screen.
While I typically like the Resize the way it is now, that feature's pretty sorely missing.
I tried that on a OS 9 machine, but shift-click and just click the resize button do the same thing, adjust the size to the content. What am I missing?
kthxbye
Originally posted by Chucker
The problem with options is that you never quite know where to stop. How about an option to move the widgets over to the right side, since some people expect that from other systems? How about an option to change their colors, since some people's color blindness may affect legibility? An option to get rid of Minimize for those who don't use it? Or to change Minimize to do window shading?
Well, if we go by that definition, then I don't want to have an option where I can change the colors of Close/Min/Max/Zoom. Or the color of the progress bars from blue to dark grey. That's useless. But it is there.
It should be a "hidden" option, known only by those that dislike the current Zoom functionality (documented clearly on the OS documentation, available through, for example, a modifier key.)
If I can have an utterly useless modifier key for slowing down the Genie effect as an option, why not have something that is actually useful for some people?
Originally posted by PB
I tried that on a OS 9 machine, but shift-click and just click the resize button do the same thing, adjust the size to the content. What am I missing?
Maybe it was only in the Finder, and maybe it was only in OS 7.1... it was 12 years ago last time I tried this :P
If an app benefits from filling up the whole screen...it should be custom coded to provide such an interface (Aperture, iPhoto 6, etc.)...OS X should not just expand a window to fill the screen: it's just a dumb idea...
Originally posted by kim kap sol
For a multitasking OS, a 'maximize' button is not a good idea. It's one of the reasons I hate Windows so much. And now that you can get 20", 24" and 30" displays...maximize makes even less sense.
If an app benefits from filling up the whole screen...it should be custom coded to provide such an interface (Aperture, iPhoto 6, etc.)...OS X should not just expand a window to fill the screen: it's just a dumb idea...
No, actually, every window should be fullscreen and just use Exposé to get between them.
Originally posted by Placebo
No, actually, every window should be fullscreen and just use Exposé to get between them.
Spoken like someone on a 15" monitor.
edit: I know you're kidding.
- The "zoom to fit" function in Mac OS X does not work properly in many many many applications, so I never use it. It it were more clever I would use it.
- Some profesionnal applications rarely need to be used with multi-level drag & drop. Take Macromedia Dreamweaver or Flash for example. They have an interface clearly made originally for a fullscreen MS Windows mode: you need to get as much space as possible (ie fullscreen) because there are many options and timelines goes big). Hey, not everyone has a Cinema Display 30"...
So there is a workspace made from a global scene on the center and several floating windows around, on the edges of the screen, docked or separated from each others by a few pixels when undocked. You see a disturbing desktop picture between all these floating windows, or worse a desktop picture covered by many icons and several other windows not part of this application.
And sometimes you are misleaded and you even click on the Finder background while you just wanted to click on a floating window border, part of the application you are using. This is very disturbing for a noob who sees his floating windows suddenly disappearing.
It is not the case in the Windows version of Flash (or other apps) because all is always stacked in an homogeneous environment. You are not disturbed by other graphic elements outside of the frontmost application, and you can not be randomly teleported to the desktop w/o wanting it.
But Apple was aware of this problem of clutter, remember the single window mode in Mac OS X DP4 and Public Beta in 2000? Later they designed their apps differently to take care of this issue, like iMovie. But so much other apps are not designed like that.
Discussion over.
Originally posted by Cosmos 1999
But Apple was aware of this problem of clutter, remember the single window mode in Mac OS X DP4 and Public Beta in 2000? Later they designed their apps differently to take care of this issue, like iMovie. But so much other apps are not designed like that.
I think you're confusing Single Window mode and MDI from Windows?
Single window mode showed a single window, and the desktop. It did not stretch the window to full screen, nor did it prevent you from swapping to another app on accident. Clicking on the desktop would take you to the Finder. (Which frankly, I always thought was a bug.)
MDI OTOH covers the entire screen with a grey canvas, and then throws the windows of the app on it. It wasn't really 'single window', but you could minimize all the other windows but the one you wanted to work on, or maximize a window. (Which made MDI unnecessary, of course.)
Neither really gets to the heart of the matter, or is a clean fix.
Agreed about zoom not working as advertised in all apps, and that *is* damned annoying. It's one of the top grievances in UI design among app writers, that Apple hasn't taken up the reins of that task in Cocoa. Maybe at WWDC? Twould be nice.