I don't think the formac will drop in price so much. These 18-19" (1600x1200) were intended to be budget (if big screen) offerings. Max color depth, and pixel speed were not part of their MO. That MVA formac screen is probably a much more high-end unit.
I think the degree to which these prices will plummet is ALWAYS being overestimated. I knew a guy who worked at a big high-tech company who guaranteed me in 1996 that within 1-2 years, we'd all be working on wall-mounted flat-panel displays of 24" or bigger. He said the prices would bottom-out so fast that the CRT market would vanish completely within 3 years. I bought a 21" CRT anyway, because I needed one THEN and not "maybe in 1-3 years."
Even though the 21" CRT was expensive then, I don't regret it because things didn't go the way he promised, even though he had supposedly talked to several tech big shots who "would know."
Likewise, the idea of something coming in the next 5-6 months that will cause large LCD prices to drop by half. People are always predicting precipitous changes "just around the corner," and yet change always continues to be gradual.
True, but component costs have really gone downward in the last 3-4 years.
Looking at LCD panels there is a big hole in the price structure. Forget mac pricing, lets just look at desktop LCD's.
15" panels are about 550 Canadian (or 350 USD)
17" (1280x1024) panels are about 1000 Canadian (or 660 USD)
18" (1280x1024) panels are about 1250 Canadian (or 800 USD)
20" and up? The cheapest 20" Panel I could find, still at only 1280X1024, is an NEC at 2250 Canadian. That's a big price jump for a monitor that offers no extra resolution (and quite a coarse dot-pitch)
There is a huge jump as we go to 20"+ sizes, especially if we jump to 1600X1000 or better. It's funny really, how Apple's 15 and 17 are quite a bit overpriced while their 22 and 23 are actually a good deal relative to the competition. Yes, there are a great many cheaper panels at the smaller sizes, but there are also very good ones at very good prices (Samsung and NEC) spring to mind.
The reports of 1600-1200 19" glass at about 999 would fall into the PC price structure looking from the bottom up, but seem too ambitious from the top down.
Looking at the price differences between 17 and 18" panels at the same res, we get about a 20-25% price hike per 1" of diagnal screen size. Formac is shipping a 20.1" panel at 1699 USD. The news of $999 US panels was for the 19" size, not 20". You can expect them to be about 20-25% cheaper, not 70%. As sizzle chest mentioned, projections are often ambitious, and not really met untill sometime later. If those 19"ers show up, they'll probably be in the 1300USD price range, not 999 as originally claimed.
Still not bad at all. For 1799 it's an impressive piece. Way better contrast ratio and better brightness. Guaranteed no worse than 2 dead/stuck pixels (max) and not 10, like Apple. Three year warantee standard, not one, like Apple. 170 degree viewable angle, 10-25ms pixel response (that's very fast!) Supports ADC/DVI. It looks easily to be the best large flat panel deal out there.
If I were up to spending the money, I'd get it now. It may drop in price a bit, but it won't fall nearly in half.
Only 2 brain farts on the page. Under the "compare" button, they list the aspect ratio as 5:4, but the pixel ratio is clearly 4:3. It's probably just a typo, as I don't think there are any computer flat panels with recangular pixels, though there are a few plasma displays. And on the second page, they list the resolution as 1600x1024 instead of 1600x1200.
If Formac is a much smaller outfit than apple how come they can make LCD monitors that are not only better than apple's but cheaper as well? Plus, you can have them as VGA or DVI instead of apple's stupid ADC connection. . .
Where did you get the idea that Formac's monitor is cheaper? Have you forgotten that Apple's monitor is 22", not 20"? Maybe if Formac made a 22" flat panel we could compare, but they don't, so we can't. That being said, once you go over 20" the price for producing an LCD monitor goes through the roof, and this is true for everybody, not just Apple.
I'd also like to point out that Formac's 17" LCD is either $900 or $950 depending on whether you get DVI or ADC. That is cheaper than Apple's $999 17" monitor, but only barely. Also, please notice VGA is not an option like you stated.
All that being said, Formac's monitor is attractive because it fills a gap in Apple's monitor lineup. It's right inbetween the 17" and the 22" monitors, and it's less than 2 grand but it's still pretty huge. I think I'm going to try to get one for myself.
I think it's fair to say that the Formac is cheaper than Apple's 22 and that are in the same category.
The only thing on Apple's side is that it is a small little bit bigger and the aspect ratio is nicer for DVD. It's probably not any taller, just a touch wider.
The Formac has way faster pixels and much higher contrast, a wider viewing angle and better brightness. And, the Formac actually has more pixels and a finer dot pitch. All for 50% less.
50% less would be $1250. The $800 difference is about 35% of the price of the Cinema Display, so the Formac is 35% less, or you could say the Cinema Display is about 50% more ($800 being about 50% of the price of the Formac) than the Formac. Just nit-picking.
I still think the comparison between the Formac and the Cinema Display _right now_ may be a bit misleading. By the time the Formac is released, or soon after, the Cinema Display may only be 20% more, if Apple adjusts the price as I think they will.
Look, it should be just about this simple: The Formac is 20", the Cinema Display is 22". Until Formac comes out with a 22" display, you can't compare them directly, price-wise. Believe it or not, it really is considerably more expensive to produce a 22" LCD than it is to make a 20" one. Samsung makes a 24" LCD monitor that costs $4,200. IBM's T-210 21" flat panel monitor costs $5,000. Mitsubishi LCD2010X-T 20" LCD Monitor, $2200. Mitsubishi MultiSync LCD2110 21" LCD Monitor, $3600. Still think it's just Apple jacking up the prices? Look at the facts.
I just saw the 22" Apple Cinema display on sale for $2000 (20% off). Is the Apple Cinema display worth $1900 ($2000 - $200 Crystal Clear + $100 sales tax)? I mean, $1900 is a helluva lot of money for a monitor, even if it is 20% off.
I also bought a new PowerMac G4 two weeks ago. I assume I'd still eligible for the Crystal Clear promotion even though the monitor and CPU aren't on the same receipt. Is this correct?
<strong>Look, it should be just about this simple: The Formac is 20", the Cinema Display is 22". Until Formac comes out with a 22" display, you can't compare them directly, price-wise. Believe it or not, it really is considerably more expensive to produce a 22" LCD than it is to make a 20" one. Samsung makes a 24" LCD monitor that costs $4,200. IBM's T-210 21" flat panel monitor costs $5,000. Mitsubishi LCD2010X-T 20" LCD Monitor, $2200. Mitsubishi MultiSync LCD2110 21" LCD Monitor, $3600. Still think it's just Apple jacking up the prices? Look at the facts.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Like I said when I mentioned the impending standardization of 1600x1200 19" panels, the market is more or less all over the place when you get to larger panels (20" and up) and usually very expensive. There isn't too much to give between a 20"-24" panel, they're both very big. As I mentioned, Apple's LARGE panels (the 22 and 23") are very competitive in this space. IMHO, they were the best large panel deals going both for price and performance.
Nobody looking to spend money in this class is really going to mind an inch or 4 either way. Everything varies here -- aspect ratio, res, pixel response, color fidelity, size. The best balance of these wins out. So in the range where prices compare (20-24 inches) the Apple Cinema displays were the best large panel deals out there, but the 22" has serious competition from this formac display because while the aspect ratio of the 22" looks better for video, it doesn't have the native resolution to back that up. The Formac also remains a few pixels short of native HD display, but since neither display can produce a full frame 1920x1080 image, the much faster pixel speed, much higher contrast ratio, better brightness, higher resolution and (lets face it) better price more than offset a meager 2" but at a lower resolution.
Of course 22" glass is more expensive, but Apple chose it, and now they have to live with it. It was a great choice at the time, and it's still the second best value out there. The formac is now the best deal, that's all. The 23" is in a different class than everything else because of the native resolution it can display, but from a buyers perspective the Formac and the 22"ACD are in the same class (with every other large, panel I might add). The consumer will and should compare them -- when they do they find that the 2 mere inches the 22"ACD gains don't warrant 800 extra dollars given that the ACD is inferior in every other respect to the Formac.
Apple did well with the 22, but it's been significantly bettered now. No shame, just time for an update. Either lower the price, or, if that's not possible, choose a new panel size.
Comments
Even though the 21" CRT was expensive then, I don't regret it because things didn't go the way he promised, even though he had supposedly talked to several tech big shots who "would know."
Likewise, the idea of something coming in the next 5-6 months that will cause large LCD prices to drop by half. People are always predicting precipitous changes "just around the corner," and yet change always continues to be gradual.
[ 09-05-2002: Message edited by: sizzle chest ]</p>
Looking at LCD panels there is a big hole in the price structure. Forget mac pricing, lets just look at desktop LCD's.
15" panels are about 550 Canadian (or 350 USD)
17" (1280x1024) panels are about 1000 Canadian (or 660 USD)
18" (1280x1024) panels are about 1250 Canadian (or 800 USD)
20" and up? The cheapest 20" Panel I could find, still at only 1280X1024, is an NEC at 2250 Canadian. That's a big price jump for a monitor that offers no extra resolution (and quite a coarse dot-pitch)
There is a huge jump as we go to 20"+ sizes, especially if we jump to 1600X1000 or better. It's funny really, how Apple's 15 and 17 are quite a bit overpriced while their 22 and 23 are actually a good deal relative to the competition. Yes, there are a great many cheaper panels at the smaller sizes, but there are also very good ones at very good prices (Samsung and NEC) spring to mind.
The reports of 1600-1200 19" glass at about 999 would fall into the PC price structure looking from the bottom up, but seem too ambitious from the top down.
Looking at the price differences between 17 and 18" panels at the same res, we get about a 20-25% price hike per 1" of diagnal screen size. Formac is shipping a 20.1" panel at 1699 USD. The news of $999 US panels was for the 19" size, not 20". You can expect them to be about 20-25% cheaper, not 70%. As sizzle chest mentioned, projections are often ambitious, and not really met untill sometime later. If those 19"ers show up, they'll probably be in the 1300USD price range, not 999 as originally claimed.
Still not bad at all. For 1799 it's an impressive piece. Way better contrast ratio and better brightness. Guaranteed no worse than 2 dead/stuck pixels (max) and not 10, like Apple. Three year warantee standard, not one, like Apple. 170 degree viewable angle, 10-25ms pixel response (that's very fast!) Supports ADC/DVI. It looks easily to be the best large flat panel deal out there.
If I were up to spending the money, I'd get it now. It may drop in price a bit, but it won't fall nearly in half.
Only 2 brain farts on the page. Under the "compare" button, they list the aspect ratio as 5:4, but the pixel ratio is clearly 4:3. It's probably just a typo, as I don't think there are any computer flat panels with recangular pixels, though there are a few plasma displays. And on the second page, they list the resolution as 1600x1024 instead of 1600x1200.
[ 09-05-2002: Message edited by: Matsu ]</p>
I would buy a DVI version because the ADC uses the power of the macs psu - making the mac louder.
If you need two: use an ADC-DVI-Adaptor...
god, sometimes apple just makes me soooo mad
I'd also like to point out that Formac's 17" LCD is either $900 or $950 depending on whether you get DVI or ADC. That is cheaper than Apple's $999 17" monitor, but only barely. Also, please notice VGA is not an option like you stated.
All that being said, Formac's monitor is attractive because it fills a gap in Apple's monitor lineup. It's right inbetween the 17" and the 22" monitors, and it's less than 2 grand but it's still pretty huge. I think I'm going to try to get one for myself.
[ 09-06-2002: Message edited by: Xaqtly ]</p>
The only thing on Apple's side is that it is a small little bit bigger and the aspect ratio is nicer for DVD. It's probably not any taller, just a touch wider.
The Formac has way faster pixels and much higher contrast, a wider viewing angle and better brightness. And, the Formac actually has more pixels and a finer dot pitch. All for 50% less.
I still think the comparison between the Formac and the Cinema Display _right now_ may be a bit misleading. By the time the Formac is released, or soon after, the Cinema Display may only be 20% more, if Apple adjusts the price as I think they will.
I just saw the 22" Apple Cinema display on sale for $2000 (20% off). Is the Apple Cinema display worth $1900 ($2000 - $200 Crystal Clear + $100 sales tax)? I mean, $1900 is a helluva lot of money for a monitor, even if it is 20% off.
I also bought a new PowerMac G4 two weeks ago. I assume I'd still eligible for the Crystal Clear promotion even though the monitor and CPU aren't on the same receipt. Is this correct?
Any opinions/help are greatly appreciated.
<strong>Look, it should be just about this simple: The Formac is 20", the Cinema Display is 22". Until Formac comes out with a 22" display, you can't compare them directly, price-wise. Believe it or not, it really is considerably more expensive to produce a 22" LCD than it is to make a 20" one. Samsung makes a 24" LCD monitor that costs $4,200. IBM's T-210 21" flat panel monitor costs $5,000. Mitsubishi LCD2010X-T 20" LCD Monitor, $2200. Mitsubishi MultiSync LCD2110 21" LCD Monitor, $3600. Still think it's just Apple jacking up the prices? Look at the facts.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Like I said when I mentioned the impending standardization of 1600x1200 19" panels, the market is more or less all over the place when you get to larger panels (20" and up) and usually very expensive. There isn't too much to give between a 20"-24" panel, they're both very big. As I mentioned, Apple's LARGE panels (the 22 and 23") are very competitive in this space. IMHO, they were the best large panel deals going both for price and performance.
Nobody looking to spend money in this class is really going to mind an inch or 4 either way. Everything varies here -- aspect ratio, res, pixel response, color fidelity, size. The best balance of these wins out. So in the range where prices compare (20-24 inches) the Apple Cinema displays were the best large panel deals out there, but the 22" has serious competition from this formac display because while the aspect ratio of the 22" looks better for video, it doesn't have the native resolution to back that up. The Formac also remains a few pixels short of native HD display, but since neither display can produce a full frame 1920x1080 image, the much faster pixel speed, much higher contrast ratio, better brightness, higher resolution and (lets face it) better price more than offset a meager 2" but at a lower resolution.
Of course 22" glass is more expensive, but Apple chose it, and now they have to live with it. It was a great choice at the time, and it's still the second best value out there. The formac is now the best deal, that's all. The 23" is in a different class than everything else because of the native resolution it can display, but from a buyers perspective the Formac and the 22"ACD are in the same class (with every other large, panel I might add). The consumer will and should compare them -- when they do they find that the 2 mere inches the 22"ACD gains don't warrant 800 extra dollars given that the ACD is inferior in every other respect to the Formac.
Apple did well with the 22, but it's been significantly bettered now. No shame, just time for an update. Either lower the price, or, if that's not possible, choose a new panel size.