Well let's clear something else up too. You guys know the variable speed fan system in the new G4 towers is temperature reactive, right? So have any of you guys saying IT'S LOUD ever considered that maybe it's because it's running hot? My new tower IS NOT LOUD, and it's because I have sufficient ventilation, obviously. If I didn't, the fans would run faster and it would be louder.
<strong>Well let's clear something else up too. You guys know the variable speed fan system in the new G4 towers is temperature reactive, right? So have any of you guys saying IT'S LOUD ever considered that maybe it's because it's running hot? My new tower IS NOT LOUD, and it's because I have sufficient ventilation, obviously. If I didn't, the fans would run faster and it would be louder.</strong><hr></blockquote>
True, I'd really like for someone to qualify what "loud" is. I don't find my new dual gig box to be load, and I've been running it playing things like Q3, which pushes both the CPUs and graphics card pretty hard.
So, either Apple has changed the fans recently, or there is just a lot of whining going on here. I can say with all honesty that my dual G4 box is as quiet or more so than my Dell PIII box.
When I sit working at my new dual 1ghz, the sound of it is audible, definitely, but drowned-out by my Linux box 12 feet away on the other side of the room. It's not THAT loud. My old Powermac (dual G4 450) was almost as loud, even without the attached external hard drive (inside a firewire case with a built-in fan) turned on.
Good replacements for psu fans are Pabst 612NGM. There tech specs: 27 dB(A) and 35 m3/h. The fans must have a size of 60 x 60 x 24 mm. You should not use fans with lower air throuput than 30 m3/h. I you have a geof. 4 Ti or some (not only 1) more drives you should choose fans with at least 45 m3/h. With an ADC-disply connected you better not replace the originals.
A good solution to replace the main fan will come on weekend after I tried it out. This is much more complicated.
To Xaqtly:
You can be shure that I check this topic very thoroughly. 1
That is why I can tell you that the board switches the main fan to one of 3 steps:
1) Low speed when the cpus don´t have to do much
2) Medium speed - typically with cpu intensive tasks
3) Full speed - normally only to hear wiht new start for as long as 2 secs
The noise of the unmodified 867 MHz model in low speed not software active) is 5.5 Sone = 56.7 dB(A)!
Compared to 800 MHz iMac with 1.22 Sone = 32,5 dB(A)!
During copying from CD to HD the iMac goes to 4,2 Sone = 43,3 dB(A) (mostly noise of optical drive) and the dual comes to 6,1 Sone = 50,6 dB(A) which ist mostly noise of the middle level of the main fan.
High speed gives a noise of unbelievable 14,1 Sone = 63,0 dB(A)
All measured in an acoustic lab - not by me - by audioprofessionells.
Is this something called info? <img src="graemlins/embarrassed.gif" border="0" alt="[Embarrassed]" />
So if someone likes to do work concentrated and perhaps work with audio this is much to much.
My AMD-PC (cpu power dissipation > 60 W) is much
quieter than this.
Otherwise:
It may be that apple uses different fans as they do with hard drives for example. I got a 60 GB IGM and others got the poor Seagate snail HD.
Maybe that I (and others) have been lucky to get a good HD but unlucky to get noisy fans. Mine were Delta fans produced in China.
And:
I´m sick to hear people saying I'm a whiner
People not (even subjectively) affected with the dual noise should be glad (to have good fans or insensitive nerves or something other)
I say apple did a bad job in respect of noise. Just because I can do it better and I´m not a high income special apple engineer <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
You can be shure that I check this topic very thoroughly. 1
The noise of the unmodified 867 MHz model in low speed not software active) is 5.5 Sone = 56.7 dB(A)!
Compared to 800 MHz iMac with 1.22 Sone = 32,5 dB(A)!
During copying from CD to HD the iMac goes to 4,2 Sone = 43,3 dB(A) (mostly noise of optical drive) and the dual comes to 6,1 Sone = 50,6 dB(A) which ist mostly noise of the middle level of the main fan.
High speed gives a noise of unbelievable 14,1 Sone = 63,0 dB(A)
All measured in an acoustic lab - not by me - by audioprofessionells.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Very precise measurements.
At what range were they taken? Was the case open or closed?
Given the levels you quote, it almost seems that they measured the levels from inside the closed case...which would, of course, be totally bogus for telling how loud the machine sounds from several feet away (most people aren't "into computers" in that exact sense).
I still was not satisfied with the 612NGM fans from Papst. They still have noticeable mechanical bearing noise. So I ordered 2 of the a little less powerful 612F fans. Tech specs: 29 m3/h, 1.1 VA and 27 dB(A). Dimensions: 60 x 60 x 15 mm. I use 10 mm distance rolls to compensate the unused space (there have been 60 x 60 x 25 mm fans in the psu originally).
The psu is now nearly unhearable.
After many experiments and after spending much money buying 9 diffent fans in total I have a satisfying result now. But this is much more complicated than chaning the psu fans.
My solution:
1) I replaced the main fan (120 x 120 x 38 mm Delta fan with 20 VA) with a 120 x 120 x 25 mm Enermax fan with 2.4 VA. The Enermax (EM UC-12FAB) has adjustable speed via a potentiometer connected with two white leads. I cut this leads and soldered them together to get maximum speed (2500 rpm). There are no more tech specs to get from Enermax but they are very quiet subjectively). I did not use the fan grill for avoiding not neccessary noise.
2) I installed a 80 x 80 x 25 mm Enermax fan (EM UC-8FAB) on top of the internal HD and treated the fan like the first one. This construction allowes to conduct air directly to the top of the heat sink of the cpus.
3) I placed to of the 612F fans (mentioned above) between the heat sink and the rear panel of the case (there is 20 mm space for this purpose). This construction is very effective for cooling as the air is drawn through the heat sik directly out of the case.
4) The power cords of this 4 fans were soldered together and connected to the socket of the original main fan. So the motherboard does thermoregulation as before.
The results: the heat sink is about 4 deg Celsius cooler than with the big original main fan. There is no more power cycling of the fans. The fans were operated at the slowest level from the motherboard. Therefore I am very happy now
and I own an ultra quiet dual Powermac.
This operation will cost you about ? =$ 120.
I spent more than double because I own a bunch of unused fans now <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" />
1. The noise level will not be noticeable lower because apple used bad cooling construction and loud fans.
2. Don't think of trying this. The cpus are not detachable.
I think it is even not possible to change the new dual cpu board with a single cpu board from the Quicksilver line. But I don't can tell this for shure.
If you wanna have a single cpu Mac and a quiet one and not mdding it yourself:
Just got a new dual 1GHZ at work, and yes it is loud. I have used just about every mac model since the 7100's, and this is by far the loudest mac ever. You can easily hear it over the rack of network switches just a few feet away when the internal fans are at low speed, and that rack is none too quite. About as loud as a S900 packed full of scsi drives. Then the fan kicks into high mode. Imagine taking your hairdryer, putting it on its medium-highest setting, and placing it in front of your computer. That's embarrasing loud! <img src="graemlins/embarrassed.gif" border="0" alt="[Embarrassed]" />
I just set up my new dual-867, replacing a dual-450, and I don't think it's appreciably louder. The sound is a different pitch, but it's not obtrusive. When I start it up, it seems LOUD, but then it settles down to a quieter hum. Sort of like a refrigerator.
Now if I could just figure out how to quiet the earth-shattering startup chime...
it's basically a fix around a design flaw in Apple's Performa 6200/6300 Powersupplies, where a few resistors stood under constant current, even when turned off, and due to lack of cooling, generated enough heat to render both PCB and solder, as well as the copper traces brittle, to the point were you could litterally scrape it off with a fingernail. Needless to say that stuff did no longer work. And you can't replace it with an other PSU easily, as it's a custom PSU, as is the new DDR PM's PSU.
You didn't have to argue with me from the very beginning. I was just saying that I'd not tamper with warranty and PSU, because I'd want to avoid such a PSU burn at all costs.
Now you already did void your warranty and I sure hope you're not going to burn anything. I know I won't take the risk.
I still was not satisfied with the 612NGM fans from Papst. They still have noticeable mechanical bearing noise. So I ordered 2 of the a little less powerful 612F fans.
...
Therefore I am very happy now
and I own an ultra quiet dual Powermac.
This operation will cost you about ? =$ 120.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I would really like an article with pictures. It's very difficult to estimate the risks and required skills otherwise. I'm sure you could get it published at xlr8yourmac. Would you be interested in writing one for us? I think that many would appreciate it.
Comments
<strong>Well let's clear something else up too. You guys know the variable speed fan system in the new G4 towers is temperature reactive, right? So have any of you guys saying IT'S LOUD ever considered that maybe it's because it's running hot? My new tower IS NOT LOUD, and it's because I have sufficient ventilation, obviously. If I didn't, the fans would run faster and it would be louder.</strong><hr></blockquote>
True, I'd really like for someone to qualify what "loud" is. I don't find my new dual gig box to be load, and I've been running it playing things like Q3, which pushes both the CPUs and graphics card pretty hard.
So, either Apple has changed the fans recently, or there is just a lot of whining going on here. I can say with all honesty that my dual G4 box is as quiet or more so than my Dell PIII box.
Steve
A good solution to replace the main fan will come on weekend after I tried it out. This is much more complicated.
To Xaqtly:
You can be shure that I check this topic very thoroughly. 1
That is why I can tell you that the board switches the main fan to one of 3 steps:
1) Low speed when the cpus don´t have to do much
2) Medium speed - typically with cpu intensive tasks
3) Full speed - normally only to hear wiht new start for as long as 2 secs
The noise of the unmodified 867 MHz model in low speed not software active) is 5.5 Sone = 56.7 dB(A)!
Compared to 800 MHz iMac with 1.22 Sone = 32,5 dB(A)!
During copying from CD to HD the iMac goes to 4,2 Sone = 43,3 dB(A) (mostly noise of optical drive) and the dual comes to 6,1 Sone = 50,6 dB(A) which ist mostly noise of the middle level of the main fan.
High speed gives a noise of unbelievable 14,1 Sone = 63,0 dB(A)
All measured in an acoustic lab - not by me - by audioprofessionells.
Is this something called info? <img src="graemlins/embarrassed.gif" border="0" alt="[Embarrassed]" />
So if someone likes to do work concentrated and perhaps work with audio this is much to much.
My AMD-PC (cpu power dissipation > 60 W) is much
quieter than this.
Otherwise:
It may be that apple uses different fans as they do with hard drives for example. I got a 60 GB IGM and others got the poor Seagate snail HD.
Maybe that I (and others) have been lucky to get a good HD but unlucky to get noisy fans. Mine were Delta fans produced in China.
And:
I´m sick to hear people saying I'm a whiner
People not (even subjectively) affected with the dual noise should be glad (to have good fans or insensitive nerves or something other)
I say apple did a bad job in respect of noise. Just because I can do it better and I´m not a high income special apple engineer <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
You can dl a pdf (in english) from
<a href="http://www.pabst.de"; target="_blank">Pabst</a>
with their complete tech specs.
I'm shure you wil be able to find matching replacements.
<strong>To Xaqtly:
You can be shure that I check this topic very thoroughly. 1
The noise of the unmodified 867 MHz model in low speed not software active) is 5.5 Sone = 56.7 dB(A)!
Compared to 800 MHz iMac with 1.22 Sone = 32,5 dB(A)!
During copying from CD to HD the iMac goes to 4,2 Sone = 43,3 dB(A) (mostly noise of optical drive) and the dual comes to 6,1 Sone = 50,6 dB(A) which ist mostly noise of the middle level of the main fan.
High speed gives a noise of unbelievable 14,1 Sone = 63,0 dB(A)
All measured in an acoustic lab - not by me - by audioprofessionells.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Very precise measurements.
At what range were they taken? Was the case open or closed?
Given the levels you quote, it almost seems that they measured the levels from inside the closed case...which would, of course, be totally bogus for telling how loud the machine sounds from several feet away (most people aren't "into computers" in that exact sense).
[ 09-11-2002: Message edited by: Capt. Obvious ]</p>
Don't you think that doesn't make any sense at all?
G-News
you're right: I made a typo:
The first numbers should be 5.5 Sone = 50,67 dB(A).
The on the first impression looking wrong second
number 6.2 Sone = 50.6 dB(A) come from the priciples of measurement. dB(A) considers different spectum weigthings than Sone.
All values come from measurement from a distance of 25 cm (= 0,8 feet).
The are done by c't numer 19 - a german computer magazine which you should be able to buy in Switzerland too - if you don't believe me.
If you want to know more about acoustic measurement look there <a href="http://www.s4s.de/s4s/grundlagen/art.htm<a href="http://www.s4s.de/s4s/grundlagen/art.htm"; target="_blank">[/URL]." target="_blank">http://www.s4s.de/s4s/grundlagen/art.htm[URL=http://www.s4s.de/s4s/grundlagen/art.htm]</a>.</a>; Its in geman but you can translate it via google.
So - G-News - never mind...
It's fun to be right, isn't it?
And a typo should not turn my arguments wrong
Last episode: Arrival in fan-tasyland...
I still was not satisfied with the 612NGM fans from Papst. They still have noticeable mechanical bearing noise. So I ordered 2 of the a little less powerful 612F fans. Tech specs: 29 m3/h, 1.1 VA and 27 dB(A). Dimensions: 60 x 60 x 15 mm. I use 10 mm distance rolls to compensate the unused space (there have been 60 x 60 x 25 mm fans in the psu originally).
The psu is now nearly unhearable.
After many experiments and after spending much money buying 9 diffent fans in total I have a satisfying result now. But this is much more complicated than chaning the psu fans.
My solution:
1) I replaced the main fan (120 x 120 x 38 mm Delta fan with 20 VA) with a 120 x 120 x 25 mm Enermax fan with 2.4 VA. The Enermax (EM UC-12FAB) has adjustable speed via a potentiometer connected with two white leads. I cut this leads and soldered them together to get maximum speed (2500 rpm). There are no more tech specs to get from Enermax but they are very quiet subjectively). I did not use the fan grill for avoiding not neccessary noise.
2) I installed a 80 x 80 x 25 mm Enermax fan (EM UC-8FAB) on top of the internal HD and treated the fan like the first one. This construction allowes to conduct air directly to the top of the heat sink of the cpus.
3) I placed to of the 612F fans (mentioned above) between the heat sink and the rear panel of the case (there is 20 mm space for this purpose). This construction is very effective for cooling as the air is drawn through the heat sik directly out of the case.
4) The power cords of this 4 fans were soldered together and connected to the socket of the original main fan. So the motherboard does thermoregulation as before.
The results: the heat sink is about 4 deg Celsius cooler than with the big original main fan. There is no more power cycling of the fans. The fans were operated at the slowest level from the motherboard. Therefore I am very happy now
and I own an ultra quiet dual Powermac.
This operation will cost you about ? =$ 120.
I spent more than double because I own a bunch of unused fans now <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" />
Actually some numbers on before&after of the PSU would mean much more than ±4°C CPU temp.
G-News
This is a topic I did not check.
Finger tip measurement says slightly higher
temperature if using 612F fans. Thats why I was warning of changing fans when using ADC-monotor.
But for my purposes (just 1 additional HD, no additional
PCI-card) it seems ok to me.
BTW: Never satisfied?
Where do you take this from:
Psu temperature is more important than cpu temp.
Just an opinion? Where is the reason?
This would be interesting to me
Lets say you bought a dual 867 G4, and took one of the processors out:
1. would this lower the noise level dramatically since less heat is thrown off?
2. Could the removed processor be sold to someone else with a slower G4?
Just curious because I don't need a dual but I hate noise and when the price drops after a speed bump I may consider it...............................
2. Don't think of trying this. The cpus are not detachable.
I think it is even not possible to change the new dual cpu board with a single cpu board from the Quicksilver line. But I don't can tell this for shure.
If you wanna have a single cpu Mac and a quiet one and not mdding it yourself:
buy an iMac.
And apart from the PCU, which is only going to crash or shutdown if too hot, the PSU has no means to tell us "I'm hot" and it's quietly going to die.
A surface temperature scan of the PSU board would be helpful, although technically challenging.
See what happens with PSUs that lack cooling:
<a href="http://www.g-news.ch/articles/powersupply.html"; target="_blank">www.g-news.ch/articles/powersupply.html</a>
G-News
I've read Your article (your) link.
I stop arguing with you.
Makes no sense to me.
Bye
Now if I could just figure out how to quiet the earth-shattering startup chime...
it's basically a fix around a design flaw in Apple's Performa 6200/6300 Powersupplies, where a few resistors stood under constant current, even when turned off, and due to lack of cooling, generated enough heat to render both PCB and solder, as well as the copper traces brittle, to the point were you could litterally scrape it off with a fingernail. Needless to say that stuff did no longer work. And you can't replace it with an other PSU easily, as it's a custom PSU, as is the new DDR PM's PSU.
You didn't have to argue with me from the very beginning. I was just saying that I'd not tamper with warranty and PSU, because I'd want to avoid such a PSU burn at all costs.
Now you already did void your warranty and I sure hope you're not going to burn anything. I know I won't take the risk.
G-News
<strong>I was just saying that I'd not tamper with warranty and PSU, because I'd want to avoid such a PSU burn at all costs.
Now you already did void your warranty and I sure hope you're not going to burn anything. I know I won't take the risk.</strong><hr></blockquote>
You can always put back the original fans in case something happens. The PSU doesn't have a seal, does it?
<strong>Last episode: Arrival in fan-tasyland...
I still was not satisfied with the 612NGM fans from Papst. They still have noticeable mechanical bearing noise. So I ordered 2 of the a little less powerful 612F fans.
...
Therefore I am very happy now
and I own an ultra quiet dual Powermac.
This operation will cost you about ? =$ 120.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I would really like an article with pictures. It's very difficult to estimate the risks and required skills otherwise. I'm sure you could get it published at xlr8yourmac. Would you be interested in writing one for us? I think that many would appreciate it.
[ 09-13-2002: Message edited by: wfzelle ]</p>