At times, the boards also became a focal point of the online and mainstream media due to questionable moderation practices. To the dismay of customers, it wasn't uncommon for staff members to close or completely remove lengthy discussion threads that brought attention to problems with Apple products that the company had yet to officially recognize.
Quote:
Originally posted by AppleInsider
But Apple's decision to do away with its moderation staff has only added to the complaints users have about the boards.
WTF?!
Seriously.. they get crapped on for moderating the forum, and now they're getting crapped on for NOT moderating it.
Make up your mind, already!
I stopped using their board after I found a defect with the GeForce 6800U & Mac OS 10.3 that prevented booting without a driver (so you can't even use a boot disk). They deleted my lengthy and well-researched post about it which contained no rude language (albeit, a lot of "gotchas")..
If you don't like a forum, don't go.. there's a reason why I don't go to macrumors anymore.
Google has never pointed me to the Apple discussion board to answer any of my questions--there are 50 some-odd pages that come up before it. It's a resource they don't need, especially with all those technical documents online and crawled by Google already (unlike DELL's).
If one would be so bold as to imply that something within the Mac/Apple realm was faulty, needed redesign and suggested procedures/methods for improvement, it was a sure way to get that posting removed.
Good. That's the way it should be. All that does is scare people away from buying a Mac. Reading a couple of posts in the forums lead people to believe the problem is widespread, which is not necessarily true, and shines a bad light on Apple.
If it was your business you'd do the same.
It also does nothing to help others who may have the same problem. Most posters on their forums could not grasp the simple concept - "The forum is for posting questions and possible solutions only". They'd rather feed their egos and bash Apple - who does that help?
so, if i am reading this correctly, apple was removing moderators from the forums when they started going off the tracks? did they think this would help matters? i dunno. i'd rather there be a moderated discussion (with proper disavowments if necessary whenever anyone suggested "recalll" or "faulty") from apple than the tower of babel you find anywhere else. plus, we the experienced users know where else to look for help, but does the new apple computer owner know? seems like this is going to jettison more people at the call centers than anything else. hmmm... maybe this is a wacko attempt at getting more people to signup for applecare to get the full two years of phone assistance? yeah, i know. crazy talk, but don't think there isn't at least one exec who think that's a brilliant idea, dilbert pointy-haired-boss style.
No, actually AI's reproduction of the quotes from the original article made it a little confusing. If you read the original article at MacObserver you'll see that Apple pulled the moderators (supposedly) because some execs thought the forums weren't very useful. Following that decision, the quality of discussion has deteriorated, leading to the complaints of the forums being a disgrace to Apple.
I think moderators made Apple Support one of the best places for help. Sure you could ask questions at AI or something but if it's a controversial subject, you'll be wading through all the whining and flaming to find anything useful.
I stopped using their board after I found a defect with the GeForce 6800U & Mac OS 10.3 that prevented booting without a driver (so you can't even use a boot disk). They deleted my lengthy and well-researched post about it which contained no rude language (albeit, a lot of "gotchas")..
Like Gustav said the forum is for posting questions and possible solutions only! Well-researched or not, your post belonged at www.apple.com/contact/feedback or on a personal blog or other site dedicated to reporting problems.
In the last several months, I've been an habitué of the Apple Forums. IMHO, the "disappearing thread" phenomenon occurs because, at some point, the "flame" posts become a little out of control. Yet, I've never really seen any threads get that out of hand...With prudent moderating..any -good- thread can be brought back to life.
So, w/the removal of Apple's Support team on their forums..does that mean the support forums are going to disappear as well?
If so, that positions AI and/or MR for some heavy traffic.
This could be a huge oppritunity for AppleInsider to become hugly profitable competeing with sites like OSXhints and iLounge...follow me here: If apple shuts doen their forum, the name apple insider could become valuable if it were more about sheer knoledge of the platform with less of a focus on rumors.
What if:
*Genius Bar were re-named something like "community support" with subforums for each hardware product line, OSX, Classic, Apple software, Apple Pro-apps, non-apple software, and non-apple hardware.
*a "tips and tricks" forum is added with a similar layout to the "community suppoprt" area.
*the front page gets a three-column layout, News, Tips and tricks, and "rumor mill"
The business of AI could be huge with that much traffic, we need to have something GREAT for the masses when they come.
If you don't like a forum, don't go.. there's a reason why I don't go to macrumors anymore.
I'm glad I'm not the only one that feels that... Every time I accidently start reading those boards I walk away pissed at the non-sense that comes out of their heads.
This could be a huge oppritunity for AppleInsider to become hugly profitable competeing with sites like OSXhints and iLounge...follow me here: If apple shuts doen their forum, the name apple insider could become valuable if it were more about sheer knoledge of the platform with less of a focus on rumors.
What if:
*Genius Bar were re-named something like "community support" with subforums for each hardware product line, OSX, Classic, Apple software, Apple Pro-apps, non-apple software, and non-apple hardware.
*a "tips and tricks" forum is added with a similar layout to the "community suppoprt" area.
*the front page gets a three-column layout, News, Tips and tricks, and "rumor mill"
The business of AI could be huge with that much traffic, we need to have something GREAT for the masses when they come.
Interesting idea. I wonder what the folks at AI's super secret HQ think about that?
Quote:
Originally posted by emig647
I'm glad I'm not the only one that feels that... Every time I accidently start reading those boards I walk away pissed at the non-sense that comes out of their heads.
AI VS MacRumors is two different worlds.
Indeed they are. Comparing the discussion pages at all the rumour sites I check out points to here as being the best when you want to tell your new Mac case design idea or hardware spec, MR if you want to act like an asshole with likeminded others, and TS if you like to frist psot because there aren't often many there!
As for Apple's fora: I liked them and this story blows if true. I actually did ask about a font once (everybody's a newb once upon a time) and not only was I told the simplest and smartest answer but it was by an author of a book on fonts and Mac OS X! Way excellent. Can't remember his name though, so I guess it's not the slickest form of marketing, but it fixed my problem.
The Apple forums are for the most part, duplications of what any of us can get here, at MacNN or Ars. Even MacRumors is good at posting big issues that are getting the most attention. I ask questions all of the time that are answered sometimes within minutes in any of these places. (And there are countless more. Daring Fireball, etc.) I also enjoy answering things when I can or adding my 2 cents.
Mac users are so much more open to helping others that Apple really doesn't need to do it for us. We do it for each other.
As long as they keep the bulletins around everything will be just fine.
But the problem comes from the frustrated new Mac user who can't find the answer any more at Apple, and has no clue about the options available to them. For the sake of AAPL stock, they need to keep some kind of forum available or every link to alternate sites for help. Damn!
I never got anything helpful out of them anyway. I didn't think the people were very friendly either. Also, as pointed out, the most important threads just got locked or deleted. Stupid forum IMO and good riddance.
Since Apple has changed the forum, I do agree with you.
But before, when you where receiving one mail by answer, it was great !
I was helping a lot at that time, because i could filter the mail by subject and sub-subject and only answer in the subject where I had good knowledge !
I am on the Logic Pro forum, I cannot read from 100 to 900 mails a day !
Also the mail you receive is hopeless, if a thread has been updated 100 times, you will have a 100 times :
"Re: ................" was created on 25/07/06 00:56
I realize this is a little belated, but I actually wrote an e-mail to [email protected] and received a reply regarding this issue. In fact I got a phone call from someone at Apple (I believe he said he was the head of executive relations) in response to my e-mail.
To summarize, he wasn't going to comment on the 'personnel issues' as he called them, but he was very personable and assured me that Apple is dedicated to the support forums and that we should in fact see increased integration with the discussion forums and the rest of the support site. He also asked that I pass this information along to anyone else who had concerns about this, so I figured that would be you guys.
In general it was a very pleasant phone call and I was very happy to see that Apple does, in fact, listen to its customers. If I wasn't already a diehard Apple customer, the phone call certainly would have pushed me further in that direction.
I realize this is a little belated, but I actually wrote an e-mail to [email protected] and received a reply regarding this issue. In fact I got a phone call from someone at Apple (I believe he said he was the head of executive relations) in response to my e-mail.
To summarize, he wasn't going to comment on the 'personnel issues' as he called them, but he was very personable and assured me that Apple is dedicated to the support forums and that we should in fact see increased integration with the discussion forums and the rest of the support site. He also asked that I pass this information along to anyone else who had concerns about this, so I figured that would be you guys.
In general it was a very pleasant phone call and I was very happy to see that Apple does, in fact, listen to its customers. If I wasn't already a diehard Apple customer, the phone call certainly would have pushed me further in that direction.
I can indeed confirm that I wrote to [email protected] (a quick check in my outbox confirms this), although I'm sure the others that people listed in this thread, including that one, probably go to the same place.
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross
Do you have a name for this person you spoke to?
I'm afraid I don't -- sorry if that loses me credibility or whatever, but I was on my way out the door and I simply forgot his name by the end of the conversation. He was very friendly and seemed genuinely concerned that people were under the impression that Apple was dismantling its forums. I can tell you that I was e-mailed back before the call by Sachin Parekh of Corporate Executive Relations (they needed my telephone number so they could get in contact with me), but I'm fairly certain that wasn't the name of the person I spoke to on the phone.
Anyway, I'm not trying to be a 'brag' or anything like that, I just wanted to let you guys know what I was told, and that's that the Apple discussion forums are here to stay. I figured that was good enough news to merit letting some others know about it. Now whether or not there will be a new moderation staff, I'm still in the dark just like anyone else.
I read your article. This is very informative. Instead of dismissing, they should try to tighten the forum rules to avoid disgrace. It was in fact a place for users.
I read your article. This is very informative. Instead of dismissing, they should try to tighten the forum rules to avoid disgrace. It was in fact a place for users.
Comments
Originally posted by AppleInsider
At times, the boards also became a focal point of the online and mainstream media due to questionable moderation practices. To the dismay of customers, it wasn't uncommon for staff members to close or completely remove lengthy discussion threads that brought attention to problems with Apple products that the company had yet to officially recognize.
Originally posted by AppleInsider
But Apple's decision to do away with its moderation staff has only added to the complaints users have about the boards.
WTF?!
Seriously.. they get crapped on for moderating the forum, and now they're getting crapped on for NOT moderating it.
Make up your mind, already!
I stopped using their board after I found a defect with the GeForce 6800U & Mac OS 10.3 that prevented booting without a driver (so you can't even use a boot disk). They deleted my lengthy and well-researched post about it which contained no rude language (albeit, a lot of "gotchas")..
If you don't like a forum, don't go.. there's a reason why I don't go to macrumors anymore.
Google has never pointed me to the Apple discussion board to answer any of my questions--there are 50 some-odd pages that come up before it. It's a resource they don't need, especially with all those technical documents online and crawled by Google already (unlike DELL's).
Originally posted by macinthe408
If one would be so bold as to imply that something within the Mac/Apple realm was faulty, needed redesign and suggested procedures/methods for improvement, it was a sure way to get that posting removed.
Good. That's the way it should be. All that does is scare people away from buying a Mac. Reading a couple of posts in the forums lead people to believe the problem is widespread, which is not necessarily true, and shines a bad light on Apple.
If it was your business you'd do the same.
It also does nothing to help others who may have the same problem. Most posters on their forums could not grasp the simple concept - "The forum is for posting questions and possible solutions only". They'd rather feed their egos and bash Apple - who does that help?
Originally posted by rok
so, if i am reading this correctly, apple was removing moderators from the forums when they started going off the tracks? did they think this would help matters? i dunno. i'd rather there be a moderated discussion (with proper disavowments if necessary whenever anyone suggested "recalll" or "faulty") from apple than the tower of babel you find anywhere else. plus, we the experienced users know where else to look for help, but does the new apple computer owner know? seems like this is going to jettison more people at the call centers than anything else. hmmm... maybe this is a wacko attempt at getting more people to signup for applecare to get the full two years of phone assistance? yeah, i know. crazy talk, but don't think there isn't at least one exec who think that's a brilliant idea, dilbert pointy-haired-boss style.
No, actually AI's reproduction of the quotes from the original article made it a little confusing. If you read the original article at MacObserver you'll see that Apple pulled the moderators (supposedly) because some execs thought the forums weren't very useful. Following that decision, the quality of discussion has deteriorated, leading to the complaints of the forums being a disgrace to Apple.
I think moderators made Apple Support one of the best places for help. Sure you could ask questions at AI or something but if it's a controversial subject, you'll be wading through all the whining and flaming to find anything useful.
Originally posted by slughead
I stopped using their board after I found a defect with the GeForce 6800U & Mac OS 10.3 that prevented booting without a driver (so you can't even use a boot disk). They deleted my lengthy and well-researched post about it which contained no rude language (albeit, a lot of "gotchas")..
Like Gustav said the forum is for posting questions and possible solutions only! Well-researched or not, your post belonged at www.apple.com/contact/feedback or on a personal blog or other site dedicated to reporting problems.
Originally posted by user23
In the last several months, I've been an habitué of the Apple Forums. IMHO, the "disappearing thread" phenomenon occurs because, at some point, the "flame" posts become a little out of control. Yet, I've never really seen any threads get that out of hand...With prudent moderating..any -good- thread can be brought back to life.
So, w/the removal of Apple's Support team on their forums..does that mean the support forums are going to disappear as well?
If so, that positions AI and/or MR for some heavy traffic.
This could be a huge oppritunity for AppleInsider to become hugly profitable competeing with sites like OSXhints and iLounge...follow me here: If apple shuts doen their forum, the name apple insider could become valuable if it were more about sheer knoledge of the platform with less of a focus on rumors.
What if:
*Genius Bar were re-named something like "community support" with subforums for each hardware product line, OSX, Classic, Apple software, Apple Pro-apps, non-apple software, and non-apple hardware.
*a "tips and tricks" forum is added with a similar layout to the "community suppoprt" area.
*the front page gets a three-column layout, News, Tips and tricks, and "rumor mill"
The business of AI could be huge with that much traffic, we need to have something GREAT for the masses when they come.
Originally posted by slughead
If you don't like a forum, don't go.. there's a reason why I don't go to macrumors anymore.
I'm glad I'm not the only one that feels that... Every time I accidently start reading those boards I walk away pissed at the non-sense that comes out of their heads.
AI VS MacRumors is two different worlds.
Originally posted by a_greer
This could be a huge oppritunity for AppleInsider to become hugly profitable competeing with sites like OSXhints and iLounge...follow me here: If apple shuts doen their forum, the name apple insider could become valuable if it were more about sheer knoledge of the platform with less of a focus on rumors.
What if:
*Genius Bar were re-named something like "community support" with subforums for each hardware product line, OSX, Classic, Apple software, Apple Pro-apps, non-apple software, and non-apple hardware.
*a "tips and tricks" forum is added with a similar layout to the "community suppoprt" area.
*the front page gets a three-column layout, News, Tips and tricks, and "rumor mill"
The business of AI could be huge with that much traffic, we need to have something GREAT for the masses when they come.
Interesting idea. I wonder what the folks at AI's super secret HQ think about that?
Originally posted by emig647
I'm glad I'm not the only one that feels that... Every time I accidently start reading those boards I walk away pissed at the non-sense that comes out of their heads.
AI VS MacRumors is two different worlds.
Indeed they are. Comparing the discussion pages at all the rumour sites I check out points to here as being the best when you want to tell your new Mac case design idea or hardware spec, MR if you want to act like an asshole with likeminded others, and TS if you like to frist psot because there aren't often many there!
As for Apple's fora: I liked them and this story blows if true. I actually did ask about a font once (everybody's a newb once upon a time) and not only was I told the simplest and smartest answer but it was by an author of a book on fonts and Mac OS X! Way excellent. Can't remember his name though, so I guess it's not the slickest form of marketing, but it fixed my problem.
Originally posted by kcmac
The Apple forums are for the most part, duplications of what any of us can get here, at MacNN or Ars. Even MacRumors is good at posting big issues that are getting the most attention. I ask questions all of the time that are answered sometimes within minutes in any of these places. (And there are countless more. Daring Fireball, etc.) I also enjoy answering things when I can or adding my 2 cents.
Mac users are so much more open to helping others that Apple really doesn't need to do it for us. We do it for each other.
As long as they keep the bulletins around everything will be just fine.
But the problem comes from the frustrated new Mac user who can't find the answer any more at Apple, and has no clue about the options available to them. For the sake of AAPL stock, they need to keep some kind of forum available or every link to alternate sites for help. Damn!
Originally posted by fuyutsuki
Interesting idea. I wonder what the folks at AI's super secret HQ think about that?
.
Well, if the admins want some help modding and whatnot...I am availible...
I never got anything helpful out of them anyway. I didn't think the people were very friendly either. Also, as pointed out, the most important threads just got locked or deleted. Stupid forum IMO and good riddance.
Since Apple has changed the forum, I do agree with you.
But before, when you where receiving one mail by answer, it was great !
I was helping a lot at that time, because i could filter the mail by subject and sub-subject and only answer in the subject where I had good knowledge !
I am on the Logic Pro forum, I cannot read from 100 to 900 mails a day !
Also the mail you receive is hopeless, if a thread has been updated 100 times, you will have a 100 times :
"Re: ................" was created on 25/07/06 00:56
http://discussions.apple.com/thread....eID=xxxxxxxxxx
"Re: ................" was created on 25/07/06 00:56
http://discussions.apple.com/thread....eID=xxxxxxxxxx
"Re: ................" was created on 25/07/06 00:56
http://discussions.apple.com/thread....eID=xxxxxxxxxx
"Re: ................" was created on 25/07/06 00:56
http://discussions.apple.com/thread....eID=xxxxxxxxxx
"Re: ................" was created on 25/07/06 00:56
http://discussions.apple.com/thread....eID=xxxxxxxxxx
"Re: ................" was created on 25/07/06 00:56
http://discussions.apple.com/thread....eID=xxxxxxxxxx
This is ridiculous !!!!!!
Other forum says :
Created Thread :
" ................"
http://discussions.apple.com/thread....eID=xxxxxxxxxx
Updated Thread :
"Re: ................" was created on 25/07/06 00:56
http://discussions.apple.com/thread....eID=xxxxxxxxxx
Best
Cyril
Thanks for the explanation. I heard about this.
Why would Steve not like something going on in the forums?
The forums were created for the purpose of discussing Apple products and helping other Mac users out.
Why does Steve not like anything? As I said, he is very prickly. Prickly people who can influence events to satisfy themselves, do so.
If he doesn't like the way the forums are going, he'll do whatever he wants with them.
I realize this is a little belated, but I actually wrote an e-mail to [email protected] and received a reply regarding this issue. In fact I got a phone call from someone at Apple (I believe he said he was the head of executive relations) in response to my e-mail.
To summarize, he wasn't going to comment on the 'personnel issues' as he called them, but he was very personable and assured me that Apple is dedicated to the support forums and that we should in fact see increased integration with the discussion forums and the rest of the support site. He also asked that I pass this information along to anyone else who had concerns about this, so I figured that would be you guys.
In general it was a very pleasant phone call and I was very happy to see that Apple does, in fact, listen to its customers. If I wasn't already a diehard Apple customer, the phone call certainly would have pushed me further in that direction.
+1 Apple.
Hey everyone,
I realize this is a little belated, but I actually wrote an e-mail to [email protected] and received a reply regarding this issue. In fact I got a phone call from someone at Apple (I believe he said he was the head of executive relations) in response to my e-mail.
To summarize, he wasn't going to comment on the 'personnel issues' as he called them, but he was very personable and assured me that Apple is dedicated to the support forums and that we should in fact see increased integration with the discussion forums and the rest of the support site. He also asked that I pass this information along to anyone else who had concerns about this, so I figured that would be you guys.
In general it was a very pleasant phone call and I was very happy to see that Apple does, in fact, listen to its customers. If I wasn't already a diehard Apple customer, the phone call certainly would have pushed me further in that direction.
+1 Apple.
Do you have a name for this person you spoke to?
Some people have said it's [email protected]. Can you confirm that you wrote to [email protected]. Does the other one work as well?
I can indeed confirm that I wrote to [email protected] (a quick check in my outbox confirms this), although I'm sure the others that people listed in this thread, including that one, probably go to the same place.
Do you have a name for this person you spoke to?
I'm afraid I don't -- sorry if that loses me credibility or whatever, but I was on my way out the door and I simply forgot his name by the end of the conversation. He was very friendly and seemed genuinely concerned that people were under the impression that Apple was dismantling its forums. I can tell you that I was e-mailed back before the call by Sachin Parekh of Corporate Executive Relations (they needed my telephone number so they could get in contact with me), but I'm fairly certain that wasn't the name of the person I spoke to on the phone.
Anyway, I'm not trying to be a 'brag' or anything like that, I just wanted to let you guys know what I was told, and that's that the Apple discussion forums are here to stay. I figured that was good enough news to merit letting some others know about it. Now whether or not there will be a new moderation staff, I'm still in the dark just like anyone else.
I read your article. This is very informative. Instead of dismissing, they should try to tighten the forum rules to avoid disgrace. It was in fact a place for users.
__________________________________________________ ________________________
Simon
Used Apple Laptops
I read your article. This is very informative. Instead of dismissing, they should try to tighten the forum rules to avoid disgrace. It was in fact a place for users.
__________________________________________________ ________________________
Simon
You realize that was a two year old article that turned out to be largely inconsequential and inaccurate? The support forums are still alive and well.
You realize that was a two year old article that turned out to be largely inconsequential and inaccurate? The support forums are still alive and well.
smnrex is a linkspammer and nothing else. I've already clicked the report link on that post.