They couldn't reach $999 with the Mac Pro case, and I think that having the same expandability in the mid-range tower would pose too great a risk of cannibalising sales of the Mac Pro. Additionally, the Mac Pro case is huge and would likely put-off your average consumer.
Better to have a smaller tower with less expandability that can start at a significantly lower price point.
The Prosumer isn't exactly your average consumer. But hey, Apple can play it safe and keep most of what they have. Also know this, the higher end of the consumer market aka prosumer is usually the gateway to the casual users. People don't ask other casual users what they should get, they ask me or my cousins.
However, there is always eBay if they can be satisfied with the G5 or newer G4s. As someone pointed out, eBay is likely Apple's biggest competitor.
.....
Excellent comment. I don't know how many people I know or met in the past that had purchased used Apple towers or desktops and upgraded parts according to their desires. Me I bought a 7500 for $89, added a Sonnet G4, ATI Rage Pro, Firewire/USB card and a second hard drive. It was the only way I could afford to keep up with software advances both in Mac OS and third party software and remain a Mac user.
People, both Windows and Mac users, have been continually amazed at Apple's resale value. It's really simple and you hit the nail squarely on the head. Apple's biggest competitor for tower sales are their own used towers. Kind of ironic.
Apple's biggest competitor for tower sales are their own used towers. Kind of ironic.
and i believe that is largely because, well, you can get good towers from any PC vendor, but you can only get mac os from apple. so where else are you gonna find affordable mac os boxes? ebay.
and i believe that is largely because, well, you can get good towers from any PC vendor, but you can only get mac os from apple. so where else are you gonna find affordable mac os boxes? ebay.
Or win the lottery so you can actually afford a low end Mac Pro.
Or win the lottery so you can actually afford a low end Mac Pro.
Or work 10 weeks at minimum wage...or if you can afford a 20" iMac the delta is about 2 and 1/2 weeks or a part time job somewhere (before taxes). Work at the local Apple store for a couple months on weekends and you have the difference and an employee discount if they have one...
Or work 10 weeks at minimum wage...or if you can afford a 20" iMac the delta is about 2 and 1/2 weeks or a part time job somewhere (before taxes). Work at the local Apple store for a couple months on weekends and you have the difference and an employee discount if they have one...
Vinea
'Cause no one is going to need any of that money to pay for other things like, ya know, food, housing, or utility bills. No one has to pay college tuition or support a family or do anything else that requires money, so everyone can just put all of their paycheck towards a frigging computer.
'Cause no one is going to need any of that money to pay for other things like, ya know, food, housing, or utility bills. No one has to pay college tuition or support a family or do anything else that requires money, so everyone can just put all of their paycheck towards a frigging computer.
give it a rest. he said if you want one bad enough, get ADDITIONAL income, not spend what you can't currently afford.
give it a rest. he said if you want one bad enough, get ADDITIONAL income, not spend what you can't currently afford.
So the options for someone who wants an expandable computer are:
1. Work a second job (or a third job if you're already working 2 jobs), take the corresponding hit to your health/sanity if you're already swamped with work, all in order to buy a computer about 1,000 times more powerful than you need
2. Just go to Dell where just about every desktop they have is expandable, including cheap crap starting at $350
Now, which of these choices do you really think your average consumer is going to choose?!
Well, I picked (1), but Apple doesn't really mind if you pick (2), because most home users don't really want expansion, or can be talked out of it. As a said in a conversation today, when 2-4 years rolls around and you're thinking of upgrading, it costs nearly as much to upgrade (better processor for the socket, another HDD, RAM) as it does to just buy the 2x faster computer.
So the options for someone who wants an expandable computer are:
1. Work a second job (or a third job if you're already working 2 jobs), take the corresponding hit to your health/sanity if you're already swamped with work, all in order to buy a computer about 1,000 times more powerful than you need
2. Just go to Dell where just about every desktop they have is expandable, including cheap crap starting at $350
Now, which of these choices do you really think your average consumer is going to choose?!
Unless you are a Pro user then a Mac is simply an expensive toy now isn't it? The difference between a $1600 iMac and a $2100 Mac Pro is either not significant to the purchaser of high end toys OR is something worth saving a little longer for. If you're working minium wage for a living then I suggest a $999 tower is also an extravagant purchase.
The point of the minium wage example is to show that its not that much time even with a minium wage job to save the difference between an iMac and a Mac Pro. For most married guys the brownie point delta between a $1600 toy and a $2000 toy is more significant than the actual cash delta.
So the options are:
1. Whine about how macs don't have a $999 tower because you want your toy and you want it now.
2. Go buy a Dell and whine about how XP sucks even with 4 bazillion expansion options.
I may have snazzy gear at work but for my home toys I still run a Quicksilver and hope to upgrade to a Mini in the next rev. I can afford but not justify a Mac Pro...or even a $999 tower. I can run iLife just fine on a Mini. I'll likely get a NAS for all the video I need to archive of the kids.
Unless you are a Pro user then a Mac is simply an expensive toy now isn't it? The difference between a $1600 iMac and a $2100 Mac Pro is either not significant to the purchaser of high end toys OR is something worth saving a little longer for. If you're working minium wage for a living then I suggest a $999 tower is also an extravagant purchase.
The point of the minium wage example is to show that its not that much time even with a minium wage job to save the difference between an iMac and a Mac Pro. For most married guys the brownie point delta between a $1600 toy and a $2000 toy is more significant than the actual cash delta.
So the options are:
1. Whine about how macs don't have a $999 tower because you want your toy and you want it now.
2. Go buy a Dell and whine about how XP sucks even with 4 bazillion expansion options.
I may have snazzy gear at work but for my home toys I still run a Quicksilver and hope to upgrade to a Mini in the next rev. I can afford but not justify a Mac Pro...or even a $999 tower. I can run iLife just fine on a Mini. I'll likely get a NAS for all the video I need to archive of the kids.
Vinea
The difference between a 1600 imac and 2100 Mac Pro
Notebook Core Duo vs 2x workstation Xeon 5100
2 SO-DIMM slots vs 8 FB-DIMM slots
notebook superdrive vs 2x full size optical drives
single 3.5" hard drive vs 4x 3.5" hard drives.
mobile 128mb radeon x1600 vs desktop 256mb GeForce 7300GT
20" display vs BYO
underkill vs overkill.
Sounds like you assume everyone uses their computers exactly as you do.
Well, I picked (1), but Apple doesn't really mind if you pick (2), because most home users don't really want expansion, or can be talked out of it.
Uh huh, that's why the vast, vast majority of desktop computers sold are expandable towers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea
Unless you are a Pro user then a Mac is simply an expensive toy now isn't it?
Uh, no it's not.
Quote:
The difference between a $1600 iMac and a $2100 Mac Pro is either not significant to the purchaser of high end toys OR is something worth saving a little longer for.
Except that most potential switchers are used to being able to get expansion abilities even in machines cheaper than the $@#%ing Mini.
For most desktop users, no expansion cheaper than $2124 means no sale. No sale means no market share for Apple. It's that simple.
Quote:
If you're working minium wage for a living then I suggest a $999 tower is also an extravagant purchase.
A $1000 tower isn't nearly as extravagant a purchase as a $2200 tower, no matter what your income level is.
Quote:
So the options are:
1. Whine about how macs don't have a $999 tower because you want your toy and you want it now.
2. Go buy a Dell and whine about how XP sucks even with 4 bazillion expansion options.
Condescending much?
Quote:
I may have snazzy gear at work but for my home toys I still run a Quicksilver and hope to upgrade to a Mini in the next rev. I can afford but not justify a Mac Pro...or even a $999 tower. I can run iLife just fine on a Mini.
Since when is talking about something you want considered whining?
I'm not paying over two thousand dollars for a quad core ass chewing king of the cage WORKstation and I'm not going to pay 1700 bucks for a "decent" iMac, or even a little less for less features. I'm done buying iMacs and I'm not spending that kind of money for a computer that I'm not using to make money. At the very best as it stands right now, I might be inclined to buy a mini, as far as desktops go.
I understand where certain people are coming from. Most people don't ever upgrade their machines. Most people would do perfectly fine with what Apple does offer.
But what we are talking about here are really two different groups of people. People who are already mac users and people who are PC users. The people who are already mac users understand Apple quality. And they understand OSX elegance. So to them many are wiling to take what Apple offers them even if it isn't exactly what they want because they want to stay with the platform. To them even the worst of what Apple offers in hardware is still better then what is available on the other side, because of OSX.
The average PC user (not the die hard system builder/windows fanboy) on the other hand doesn't understand the major differences between a PC and a Mac. They know they are different, but they don't know or really care how.
For instance I asked a friend of mine lately if she would use a mac. She said yes it makes no difference to her if it was a mac or a PC. So I asked why she doesn't use a mac instead. She said they were too expensive. Well there is the Mac Mini that's only $600, have you seen that I said. She said she had but she doesn't want a little cube thing. That's exactly what she said and how she described it. And she's not a computer person. If something goes wrong with her current PC tower she's going to come to me or this other guy she knows to fix it. She's definitely not the type to play around on the inside or require anything more then a mini could offer her. But I can only guess (note the word guess) that in her mind it's about feeling like she's getting more for her money with a tower. Just by the way she worded it to me.
It may be impressive that Apple put all that power into a little box and called it the mini. But the average person these days really doesn't care. They expect it. With video game systems and PDA's and cell phone that are all crazy advanced and small the only people Apple really impressed were other engineers and people who read spec sheets constantly. Everyone else expects that if they're going to pay upwards of a thousand dollars they want something that's bigger and resembles a traditional computer. More for your money sort of thing.
So with that said a machine like this $1000 tower is really more for PC users looking for the ideal machine to switch to. Not even switch to (that makes it sound like a huge transtition - like moving to another state or something) but just so happen to buy instead of the HP that was sitting next to on the store shelf, simply becasue they liked the look and the specs of the Mac better. So not exactly for mac users who will stay with the platform no matter what. Apple has already sold those people.
Comments
They couldn't reach $999 with the Mac Pro case, and I think that having the same expandability in the mid-range tower would pose too great a risk of cannibalising sales of the Mac Pro. Additionally, the Mac Pro case is huge and would likely put-off your average consumer.
Better to have a smaller tower with less expandability that can start at a significantly lower price point.
The Prosumer isn't exactly your average consumer. But hey, Apple can play it safe and keep most of what they have. Also know this, the higher end of the consumer market aka prosumer is usually the gateway to the casual users. People don't ask other casual users what they should get, they ask me or my cousins.
....
However, there is always eBay if they can be satisfied with the G5 or newer G4s. As someone pointed out, eBay is likely Apple's biggest competitor.
.....
Excellent comment. I don't know how many people I know or met in the past that had purchased used Apple towers or desktops and upgraded parts according to their desires. Me I bought a 7500 for $89, added a Sonnet G4, ATI Rage Pro, Firewire/USB card and a second hard drive. It was the only way I could afford to keep up with software advances both in Mac OS and third party software and remain a Mac user.
People, both Windows and Mac users, have been continually amazed at Apple's resale value. It's really simple and you hit the nail squarely on the head. Apple's biggest competitor for tower sales are their own used towers. Kind of ironic.
23" screen in Black enclosure
high-end video card
special edition black wireless keyboard, mouse and remote
Optional VESA wall-mount
Low-end Mac minis in white, basically same as current ones.
New high-end Mac mini in Black, maybe same footprint but double the height.
Core2Duo instead of CoreDuo
Dedicated graphics instead of intel integrated
Full size SATA HD
$999-1299
Who would be interested in a new top of the line iMac HD?
23" screen in Black enclosure
high-end video card
special edition black wireless keyboard, mouse and remote
Optional VESA wall-mount
Me.
Who would be interested in a new top of the line iMac HD?
23" screen in Black enclosure
high-end video card
special edition black wireless keyboard, mouse and remote
Optional VESA wall-mount
Try the guys over at:
http://forums.appleinsider.com/showthread.php?t=65786
Who would be interested in a new top of the line iMac HD?
23" screen in Black enclosure
high-end video card
special edition black wireless keyboard, mouse and remote
Optional VESA wall-mount
I would!
Apple's biggest competitor for tower sales are their own used towers. Kind of ironic.
and i believe that is largely because, well, you can get good towers from any PC vendor, but you can only get mac os from apple. so where else are you gonna find affordable mac os boxes? ebay.
Who would be interested in a new top of the line iMac HD?
23" screen in Black enclosure
high-end video card
special edition black wireless keyboard, mouse and remote
Optional VESA wall-mount
While a 23" iMac with a mobility 1800 would be a very nice machine, it still wouldn't be a subsitute for a conroe tower.
and i believe that is largely because, well, you can get good towers from any PC vendor, but you can only get mac os from apple. so where else are you gonna find affordable mac os boxes? ebay.
Or win the lottery so you can actually afford a low end Mac Pro.
Or win the lottery so you can actually afford a low end Mac Pro.
Or work 10 weeks at minimum wage...or if you can afford a 20" iMac the delta is about 2 and 1/2 weeks or a part time job somewhere (before taxes). Work at the local Apple store for a couple months on weekends and you have the difference and an employee discount if they have one...
Vinea
Or work 10 weeks at minimum wage...or if you can afford a 20" iMac the delta is about 2 and 1/2 weeks or a part time job somewhere (before taxes). Work at the local Apple store for a couple months on weekends and you have the difference and an employee discount if they have one...
Vinea
'Cause no one is going to need any of that money to pay for other things like, ya know, food, housing, or utility bills. No one has to pay college tuition or support a family or do anything else that requires money, so everyone can just put all of their paycheck towards a frigging computer.
'Cause no one is going to need any of that money to pay for other things like, ya know, food, housing, or utility bills. No one has to pay college tuition or support a family or do anything else that requires money, so everyone can just put all of their paycheck towards a frigging computer.
give it a rest. he said if you want one bad enough, get ADDITIONAL income, not spend what you can't currently afford.
give it a rest. he said if you want one bad enough, get ADDITIONAL income, not spend what you can't currently afford.
So the options for someone who wants an expandable computer are:
1. Work a second job (or a third job if you're already working 2 jobs), take the corresponding hit to your health/sanity if you're already swamped with work, all in order to buy a computer about 1,000 times more powerful than you need
2. Just go to Dell where just about every desktop they have is expandable, including cheap crap starting at $350
Now, which of these choices do you really think your average consumer is going to choose?!
So the options for someone who wants an expandable computer are:
1. Work a second job (or a third job if you're already working 2 jobs), take the corresponding hit to your health/sanity if you're already swamped with work, all in order to buy a computer about 1,000 times more powerful than you need
2. Just go to Dell where just about every desktop they have is expandable, including cheap crap starting at $350
Now, which of these choices do you really think your average consumer is going to choose?!
Unless you are a Pro user then a Mac is simply an expensive toy now isn't it? The difference between a $1600 iMac and a $2100 Mac Pro is either not significant to the purchaser of high end toys OR is something worth saving a little longer for. If you're working minium wage for a living then I suggest a $999 tower is also an extravagant purchase.
The point of the minium wage example is to show that its not that much time even with a minium wage job to save the difference between an iMac and a Mac Pro. For most married guys the brownie point delta between a $1600 toy and a $2000 toy is more significant than the actual cash delta.
So the options are:
1. Whine about how macs don't have a $999 tower because you want your toy and you want it now.
2. Go buy a Dell and whine about how XP sucks even with 4 bazillion expansion options.
I may have snazzy gear at work but for my home toys I still run a Quicksilver and hope to upgrade to a Mini in the next rev. I can afford but not justify a Mac Pro...or even a $999 tower. I can run iLife just fine on a Mini. I'll likely get a NAS for all the video I need to archive of the kids.
Vinea
Unless you are a Pro user then a Mac is simply an expensive toy now isn't it? The difference between a $1600 iMac and a $2100 Mac Pro is either not significant to the purchaser of high end toys OR is something worth saving a little longer for. If you're working minium wage for a living then I suggest a $999 tower is also an extravagant purchase.
The point of the minium wage example is to show that its not that much time even with a minium wage job to save the difference between an iMac and a Mac Pro. For most married guys the brownie point delta between a $1600 toy and a $2000 toy is more significant than the actual cash delta.
So the options are:
1. Whine about how macs don't have a $999 tower because you want your toy and you want it now.
2. Go buy a Dell and whine about how XP sucks even with 4 bazillion expansion options.
I may have snazzy gear at work but for my home toys I still run a Quicksilver and hope to upgrade to a Mini in the next rev. I can afford but not justify a Mac Pro...or even a $999 tower. I can run iLife just fine on a Mini. I'll likely get a NAS for all the video I need to archive of the kids.
Vinea
The difference between a 1600 imac and 2100 Mac Pro
Notebook Core Duo vs 2x workstation Xeon 5100
2 SO-DIMM slots vs 8 FB-DIMM slots
notebook superdrive vs 2x full size optical drives
single 3.5" hard drive vs 4x 3.5" hard drives.
mobile 128mb radeon x1600 vs desktop 256mb GeForce 7300GT
20" display vs BYO
underkill vs overkill.
Sounds like you assume everyone uses their computers exactly as you do.
Well, I picked (1), but Apple doesn't really mind if you pick (2), because most home users don't really want expansion, or can be talked out of it.
Uh huh, that's why the vast, vast majority of desktop computers sold are expandable towers.
Unless you are a Pro user then a Mac is simply an expensive toy now isn't it?
Uh, no it's not.
The difference between a $1600 iMac and a $2100 Mac Pro is either not significant to the purchaser of high end toys OR is something worth saving a little longer for.
Except that most potential switchers are used to being able to get expansion abilities even in machines cheaper than the $@#%ing Mini.
For most desktop users, no expansion cheaper than $2124 means no sale. No sale means no market share for Apple. It's that simple.
If you're working minium wage for a living then I suggest a $999 tower is also an extravagant purchase.
A $1000 tower isn't nearly as extravagant a purchase as a $2200 tower, no matter what your income level is.
So the options are:
1. Whine about how macs don't have a $999 tower because you want your toy and you want it now.
2. Go buy a Dell and whine about how XP sucks even with 4 bazillion expansion options.
Condescending much?
I may have snazzy gear at work but for my home toys I still run a Quicksilver and hope to upgrade to a Mini in the next rev. I can afford but not justify a Mac Pro...or even a $999 tower. I can run iLife just fine on a Mini.
Good for you. Some people's needs are different.
I'm not paying over two thousand dollars for a quad core ass chewing king of the cage WORKstation and I'm not going to pay 1700 bucks for a "decent" iMac, or even a little less for less features. I'm done buying iMacs and I'm not spending that kind of money for a computer that I'm not using to make money. At the very best as it stands right now, I might be inclined to buy a mini, as far as desktops go.
But what we are talking about here are really two different groups of people. People who are already mac users and people who are PC users. The people who are already mac users understand Apple quality. And they understand OSX elegance. So to them many are wiling to take what Apple offers them even if it isn't exactly what they want because they want to stay with the platform. To them even the worst of what Apple offers in hardware is still better then what is available on the other side, because of OSX.
The average PC user (not the die hard system builder/windows fanboy) on the other hand doesn't understand the major differences between a PC and a Mac. They know they are different, but they don't know or really care how.
For instance I asked a friend of mine lately if she would use a mac. She said yes it makes no difference to her if it was a mac or a PC. So I asked why she doesn't use a mac instead. She said they were too expensive. Well there is the Mac Mini that's only $600, have you seen that I said. She said she had but she doesn't want a little cube thing. That's exactly what she said and how she described it. And she's not a computer person. If something goes wrong with her current PC tower she's going to come to me or this other guy she knows to fix it. She's definitely not the type to play around on the inside or require anything more then a mini could offer her. But I can only guess (note the word guess) that in her mind it's about feeling like she's getting more for her money with a tower. Just by the way she worded it to me.
It may be impressive that Apple put all that power into a little box and called it the mini. But the average person these days really doesn't care. They expect it. With video game systems and PDA's and cell phone that are all crazy advanced and small the only people Apple really impressed were other engineers and people who read spec sheets constantly. Everyone else expects that if they're going to pay upwards of a thousand dollars they want something that's bigger and resembles a traditional computer. More for your money sort of thing.
So with that said a machine like this $1000 tower is really more for PC users looking for the ideal machine to switch to. Not even switch to (that makes it sound like a huge transtition - like moving to another state or something) but just so happen to buy instead of the HP that was sitting next to on the store shelf, simply becasue they liked the look and the specs of the Mac better. So not exactly for mac users who will stay with the platform no matter what. Apple has already sold those people.