Vista has got a lot of proving to do. One stable build doesn't make an OS ready for prime time. No one is talking about app compatibility which is supposed to be the real achilles heal of vista. I would wait for a while after Vista's release and see the reviews before rushing out and buying a pc system.
Pardon my french, but who gives a shit about 'backwards compatibility' - give me reliability, security and stability, and quite frankly, leave it up to the market place to lynch companies who fail to release Vista compatible applications or updates to their current applications in a timely manner.
If we're going to bitch about 'compatibility' then why not dredge out the number of OSS projects pissed off over the fact that Apple still haven't corrected bugs in their API which are causing them problems with developing their software.
Really, nothing extraordinary... NYTimes.com, bbc, latimes, google news, dailyrotation.com, metafilter.com, linkfilter.com, amazon.com, demonoid.com, various forums, the occasional youtube, nothing special. The point is Firefox has no problem, but on the same sites Safari absolutely chokes.
You know, I ought to send you my Console logs for pptp. It tries to Authenticate, but it doesn't accept the RECV commands, which is the problem. I have sent several bug reports to Apple, but nothing has been done about it.
I'll give it a try... though I thought the whole point of the cache was to *speed up* browsing... emptying would actually slow it down, no? bwdik... anyhow, right now, the POS is at 755MB real and 2.7GB virtual memory, what a charmer...
I agree with this, we here at work, are tired to wait till we are at > 10.X.7 to get some stable system, and then to have upgrade to 10.X+1 to start again with all the flaws, bugs and changes under the hood to break exsisting settings. This is in no way any progress!!!
I agree with this, we here at work, are tired to wait till we are at > 10.X.7 to get some stable system, and then to have upgrade to 10.X+1 to start again with all the flaws, bugs and changes under the hood to break exsisting settings. This is in no way any progress!!!
If the .X.7+ releases are the only stable ones then why not wait until that rolls around to upgrade. We are talking a year or year and a half of waiting. That's not a big deal. Having said that, 10.4.4 is the first version of OS X I have used (I'm a newbie) and it seems quite stable. From what I hear, stability-wise, OS 10 is much better than OS 9. I'd call that progress. And, 10.4.7 has more functionality than 10.3.7 which had more functionality than 10.2.7. I'd call that progress also.
I just hope Apple just fix's what they screwed up as far as fire wire external hard drives. I know of 4 other people excluding myself that lost use of their FW HD after 10.4.7, which is un-acceptable. I have called Apple and asked when patch for this would be available, and I was told this is a known issue and at this time they have no solution. So if there is no solution in 10.4.8 I will have to replace both of my externals which is not right for any company to force a customer to re-invest due to there problem in there update.
After I lost my Firewire HDD because of a Panther update nearly a couple of years ago now, I swore that I would never use Firewire again for external disks. I have been USB2 ever since.
I'll give it a try... though I thought the whole point of the cache was to *speed up* browsing... emptying would actually slow it down, no? bwdik... anyhow, right now, the POS is at 755MB real and 2.7GB virtual memory, what a charmer...
Simply quitting and relaunching it will clear that right up.
Safari was given more aggressive caching in 10.4.7 - meaning it chews up more memory, but is a bit Snappier(tm). The issue with the cache is that while yes, caching does speed up browsing, when the cache *database* becomes huge, it takes a while to spin through to find what you want. Also, it takes up memory, so if you're in a tight-VM situation, you might have to wait for it to be swapped in from disk, then searched, then the cache data fetched. The biggest culprit, IME, for causing strange slowdowns, is the caching of favicons, for some unknown reason. *shrug*
The fix is simple and relatively quick. (Quicker still is simply quitting Safari, deleting ~/Library/Caches/Safari in the Finder, then relaunching, but that makes some folks a bit nervous.) Hopefully it helps in your case.
Several thoughts. Apple has a Tech Note out pointing out that third-party plug-ins are a frequent cause of issues with Safari. From memory they suggest removing these from the StartUp Items and seeing how you get on. I have experienced Safari hogging the RAM, with the odd CPU hog. The latter seems to be JavaScript related in at least some cases. The former seems, in my experience, to only occur after leaving Safari up for extended periods of time. I'm talking about weeks--! It'll be interesting to see the impact the garbage collection in Leopard has on this sort of thing. Currently I'm taking a break from Safari and am using Opera 9.
It's not the memory use with favicons, it's the lookup algorithm, for some reason. Blasting the cache of them can have a strangely large relative speedup effect.
Speaking of Vista, it is looking like they are going to start shipping by the end of the year. They are squashing bugs and optimizing code at a surprising rate if reviews of the latest builds are anything to go by.
Not from what I've heard. I just saw an article where the guy claimed the latest build was the absolute worst, buggiest release he's seen of an OS at this stage of its development. Unfortunately I don't have a link.
Quote:
Originally Posted by STEPHEN RAY SNELL
See, I've Told You That There's Going To Be Another "tiger" Update, But You Guys Wouldn't Listen To Me.
Who would that be? I think most people think it's likely we'll see more builds, considering leopard is months off. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make - an "I told you so" intended for someone who's likely not even in this thread is a waste of time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kresh
I am seriously considering switching back if Vista is even close to being as nice as OS X.
Well, if reports are to be believed, that's not bloody likely.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kresh
edit: I think the all-in-one is already hurting them based on last quarter numbers. Desktops were way down.
Desktops were way down because it was the quarter BEFORE they shipped the Mac Pros, so G5 tower sales were in the toilet. Right now, desktop sales are probably spiked. Plus, the mini and iMac are about due for updates, while the laptops were refreshed more recently. Another refresh, and iMac sales will spike again.
I'd love to see a midrange model too, but I think it's going a bit far to say that the imac is killing apple's desktop sales.
I agree with this, we here at work, are tired to wait till we are at > 10.X.7 to get some stable system, and then to have upgrade to 10.X+1 to start again with all the flaws, bugs and changes under the hood to break exsisting settings. This is in no way any progress!!!
If you're waiting for the perfect release, you'll going to die first.
Fact: No software is perfect.
Corollary: All software has bugs.
Some you see, some you don't. Some you can live with, some you can't.
You have to decide whether a certain release has bugs that you simply cannot deal with, and then balance that against the new features you simply cannot live without.
I'm not sure what you define as a 'stable system', since I've considered OS X to pretty damned stable since the first day I installed it, back pre-10.0 dev builds. It wasn't polished until 10.2, but it was *stable* from day one, in my experience. Perhaps we just have different ideas of what 'stable' means. *shrug*
Not from what I've heard. I just saw an article where the guy claimed the latest build was the absolute worst, buggiest release he's seen of an OS at this stage of its development. Unfortunately I don't have a link.
Paul Thurrot, but he's recanted with the latest build - apparently they did make a lot of progress.
Quote:
Who would that be? I think most people think it's likely we'll see more builds, considering leopard is months off. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make - an "I told you so" intended for someone who's likely not even in this thread is a waste of time.
Stephen started a thread a few days ago wanting to know when 10.4.8 was going to come out, so it could fix all the problems on his system. We tried walking him through fixes for the issues, but he wasn't interested, and instead wants to wait for Apple to magically take care of them all with 10.4.8. When we pointed out that there was no guarantee that 10.4.8 would do so, he jumped to thinking that we were saying that there would never be a 10.4.8 release. No, it doesn't make any sense to me either, but there it is.
Really, nothing extraordinary... NYTimes.com, bbc, latimes, google news, dailyrotation.com, metafilter.com, linkfilter.com, amazon.com, demonoid.com, various forums, the occasional youtube, nothing special. The point is Firefox has no problem, but on the same sites Safari absolutely chokes.
Something's definitely not right there. Do you have any problems besides Safari's bizarre CPU usage?
For reference, I opened all those sites in tabs in a single window, and got:
, but who gives a shit about 'backwards compatibility' - give me reliability, security and stability, and quite frankly, leave it up to the market place to lynch companies who fail to release Vista compatible applications or updates to their current applications in a timely manner.
.
Yeah if I've got CS2 for windows and it crashes when I upgrade to Vista, no big whoop right? I got a feeling there are a lot of users who don't see it your way.
I loaded 6 heavy flash sites. The memory footprint increased due to all the graphic preloading, yet it is quite reasonable considering the sites and content cached.
Comments
Vista has got a lot of proving to do. One stable build doesn't make an OS ready for prime time. No one is talking about app compatibility which is supposed to be the real achilles heal of vista. I would wait for a while after Vista's release and see the reviews before rushing out and buying a pc system.
Pardon my french, but who gives a shit about 'backwards compatibility' - give me reliability, security and stability, and quite frankly, leave it up to the market place to lynch companies who fail to release Vista compatible applications or updates to their current applications in a timely manner.
If we're going to bitch about 'compatibility' then why not dredge out the number of OSS projects pissed off over the fact that Apple still haven't corrected bugs in their API which are causing them problems with developing their software.
Really, nothing extraordinary... NYTimes.com, bbc, latimes, google news, dailyrotation.com, metafilter.com, linkfilter.com, amazon.com, demonoid.com, various forums, the occasional youtube, nothing special. The point is Firefox has no problem, but on the same sites Safari absolutely chokes.
Safari -> Empty Cache...
This often fixes a slowly responding Safari.
You know, I ought to send you my Console logs for pptp. It tries to Authenticate, but it doesn't accept the RECV commands, which is the problem. I have sent several bug reports to Apple, but nothing has been done about it.
That is the problem I have now.. *glares at VPN*
Safari -> Empty Cache...
This often fixes a slowly responding Safari.
I'll give it a try... though I thought the whole point of the cache was to *speed up* browsing... emptying would actually slow it down, no? bwdik... anyhow, right now, the POS is at 755MB real and 2.7GB virtual memory, what a charmer...
give me reliability, security and stability
I agree with this, we here at work, are tired to wait till we are at > 10.X.7 to get some stable system, and then to have upgrade to 10.X+1 to start again with all the flaws, bugs and changes under the hood to break exsisting settings. This is in no way any progress!!!
I agree with this, we here at work, are tired to wait till we are at > 10.X.7 to get some stable system, and then to have upgrade to 10.X+1 to start again with all the flaws, bugs and changes under the hood to break exsisting settings. This is in no way any progress!!!
If the .X.7+ releases are the only stable ones then why not wait until that rolls around to upgrade. We are talking a year or year and a half of waiting. That's not a big deal. Having said that, 10.4.4 is the first version of OS X I have used (I'm a newbie) and it seems quite stable. From what I hear, stability-wise, OS 10 is much better than OS 9. I'd call that progress. And, 10.4.7 has more functionality than 10.3.7 which had more functionality than 10.2.7. I'd call that progress also.
I just hope Apple just fix's what they screwed up as far as fire wire external hard drives. I know of 4 other people excluding myself that lost use of their FW HD after 10.4.7, which is un-acceptable. I have called Apple and asked when patch for this would be available, and I was told this is a known issue and at this time they have no solution. So if there is no solution in 10.4.8 I will have to replace both of my externals which is not right for any company to force a customer to re-invest due to there problem in there update.
After I lost my Firewire HDD because of a Panther update nearly a couple of years ago now, I swore that I would never use Firewire again for external disks. I have been USB2 ever since.
I'll give it a try... though I thought the whole point of the cache was to *speed up* browsing... emptying would actually slow it down, no? bwdik... anyhow, right now, the POS is at 755MB real and 2.7GB virtual memory, what a charmer...
Simply quitting and relaunching it will clear that right up.
Safari was given more aggressive caching in 10.4.7 - meaning it chews up more memory, but is a bit Snappier(tm). The issue with the cache is that while yes, caching does speed up browsing, when the cache *database* becomes huge, it takes a while to spin through to find what you want. Also, it takes up memory, so if you're in a tight-VM situation, you might have to wait for it to be swapped in from disk, then searched, then the cache data fetched. The biggest culprit, IME, for causing strange slowdowns, is the caching of favicons, for some unknown reason. *shrug*
The fix is simple and relatively quick. (Quicker still is simply quitting Safari, deleting ~/Library/Caches/Safari in the Finder, then relaunching, but that makes some folks a bit nervous.) Hopefully it helps in your case.
You can also use Cocktail to tell Safari not to cache the favicons. Might try that myself! :-)
I'm sure that'll clear up a good 500k of memory.
Speaking of Vista, it is looking like they are going to start shipping by the end of the year. They are squashing bugs and optimizing code at a surprising rate if reviews of the latest builds are anything to go by.
Not from what I've heard. I just saw an article where the guy claimed the latest build was the absolute worst, buggiest release he's seen of an OS at this stage of its development. Unfortunately I don't have a link.
See, I've Told You That There's Going To Be Another "tiger" Update, But You Guys Wouldn't Listen To Me.
Who would that be? I think most people think it's likely we'll see more builds, considering leopard is months off. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make - an "I told you so" intended for someone who's likely not even in this thread is a waste of time.
I am seriously considering switching back if Vista is even close to being as nice as OS X.
Well, if reports are to be believed, that's not bloody likely.
edit: I think the all-in-one is already hurting them based on last quarter numbers. Desktops were way down.
Desktops were way down because it was the quarter BEFORE they shipped the Mac Pros, so G5 tower sales were in the toilet. Right now, desktop sales are probably spiked. Plus, the mini and iMac are about due for updates, while the laptops were refreshed more recently. Another refresh, and iMac sales will spike again.
I'd love to see a midrange model too, but I think it's going a bit far to say that the imac is killing apple's desktop sales.
I agree with this, we here at work, are tired to wait till we are at > 10.X.7 to get some stable system, and then to have upgrade to 10.X+1 to start again with all the flaws, bugs and changes under the hood to break exsisting settings. This is in no way any progress!!!
If you're waiting for the perfect release, you'll going to die first.
Fact: No software is perfect.
Corollary: All software has bugs.
Some you see, some you don't. Some you can live with, some you can't.
You have to decide whether a certain release has bugs that you simply cannot deal with, and then balance that against the new features you simply cannot live without.
I'm not sure what you define as a 'stable system', since I've considered OS X to pretty damned stable since the first day I installed it, back pre-10.0 dev builds. It wasn't polished until 10.2, but it was *stable* from day one, in my experience. Perhaps we just have different ideas of what 'stable' means. *shrug*
Not from what I've heard. I just saw an article where the guy claimed the latest build was the absolute worst, buggiest release he's seen of an OS at this stage of its development. Unfortunately I don't have a link.
Paul Thurrot, but he's recanted with the latest build - apparently they did make a lot of progress.
Who would that be? I think most people think it's likely we'll see more builds, considering leopard is months off. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make - an "I told you so" intended for someone who's likely not even in this thread is a waste of time.
Stephen started a thread a few days ago wanting to know when 10.4.8 was going to come out, so it could fix all the problems on his system. We tried walking him through fixes for the issues, but he wasn't interested, and instead wants to wait for Apple to magically take care of them all with 10.4.8. When we pointed out that there was no guarantee that 10.4.8 would do so, he jumped to thinking that we were saying that there would never be a 10.4.8 release. No, it doesn't make any sense to me either, but there it is.
Really, nothing extraordinary... NYTimes.com, bbc, latimes, google news, dailyrotation.com, metafilter.com, linkfilter.com, amazon.com, demonoid.com, various forums, the occasional youtube, nothing special. The point is Firefox has no problem, but on the same sites Safari absolutely chokes.
Something's definitely not right there. Do you have any problems besides Safari's bizarre CPU usage?
For reference, I opened all those sites in tabs in a single window, and got:
http://www.winsupersite.com/reviews/winvista_5536.asp
But it still has an ugly and cluttered (and wordy) interface...
"Ugly and cluttered" only begin to describe it... It took them how many years to come up with THAT???
, but who gives a shit about 'backwards compatibility' - give me reliability, security and stability, and quite frankly, leave it up to the market place to lynch companies who fail to release Vista compatible applications or updates to their current applications in a timely manner.
.
Yeah if I've got CS2 for windows and it crashes when I upgrade to Vista, no big whoop right? I got a feeling there are a lot of users who don't see it your way.
I loaded 6 heavy flash sites. The memory footprint increased due to all the graphic preloading, yet it is quite reasonable considering the sites and content cached.