I contacted M-Audio about the card, but they would not tell me anything other than R&D is currently working on it. No ship dates, no answers to technical information, nothing.
<strong>I'd heard all the reviews and was ready to lay down $150 on a nice Audiophile 2496 card for my G4, until I found out that M-Audio is coming out with a new card.
Enter the Revolution, a 7.1 PCI solution coming soon. The only question is when?
I had trouble with that link. Here's another that reveals a scaled down USB version coming soon too! Sonica Theater includes recording capability. A long overdue and sorely needed Cube, iBook, PowerBook and iMac solution. I hope 2003 will be the year that OS X audio solutions all appear robust and fully functional in droves.
Looks like theres a slight delay and we wont see the Revolution shipping until January. A guy over at AVS forums was working close with M-Audio and suggested a few changes to the original card design that will all be implemented.
Certainly not for a $130 card I think SACD liscensing shoots prices through the roof, and wouldn't you need a cd drive that had the SACD laser anyway?</strong><hr></blockquote>
I was led to believe that SACD discs are physically the same as DVD only the data recording (and thus decoding circuitry in any given player) is completely different. If true, a data DVD drive could read the bits off the disc, but you would need either a hardware or software codec to actually play it back.
Yes SACD's are read in many DVD players for example. So I would think it's written on DVD media. SACD would be WORTH it. The whole disc is devoted to audio, unlike DVD Audio.
Man this sucks, huh matsu? We have to be going out and buying 12" PBs.
Though is there Surround Sound through FireWire? For us laptop people.
It might be worth it and it might not. DVD-A would seem to be an easier addition to DVD-V players. I think prett much the whole DVD-a is also devoted to audio. The sound quality differences are really negligible. I know some audiophiles claim to hear a difference, but how do you really know if it comes down to the format or the recording or equipment? Besides, some audiophiles claim they can make your CD's sound better by scribbling on them with a green marker.
For all intents and purposes they offer the same quality with the exception that DVD-A would be (is?) ridiculously easy to implement in a DVD-V device while SACD requires a completely different approach to circuitry for little more than the extension and glorification of Phillips/Sony's patents. On that note alone SACD deserves a bastard child death, and Sony/phillips deserve our collective admonition for muddying the waters and delaying the rightful penetration of DVD-A. Bastards.
When I saw that I realized you're right, SACD should be taken out back and shot. It's like all these damn DVD formats. Very annoying. I supposed DVD-A could have the same quality, even though it makes space for other stuff (vid, band info.) Why aren't there DVD-A Discmans and why hasn't the industry started phasing out CDs? It's like DVD, it could make them a lot of new money, reselling the same albums in higher quality DVD-A. I'm surprised they aren't jumping on this. Oh wait they're probably trying to implement new copy protection that breaks Macs.
The M-Audio Revolution 7.1 card has been in CompUSAs and other places for a few days now so Im wondering if anyone bought one for your PowerMac? I haven't been able to get my hands on one (havent been able to get to a store) so Im interested in hearing any first hand experience with this sound card.
Eh, more misinformation...why am I not surprised Matsu is involved? SACDs come in 3 formats: single-layer, dual-layer and hybrid. The single-layer and dual-layer SACDs are a lot like DVDs. A single layer SACD holds the same 4.7 GB as a DVD. They cannot be read by DVD players though...the hardware is incompatible. That's where hybrid SACDs come in. Sony understood from the beginning that SACD would be a niche product, so they developed a hybrid format with a high-density layer for SACD quality playback a low-density CD layer for play back in any existing DVD or CD player.
In short, only the CD layer of hybrid SACDs are compatible with DVD players.
It's hard to say which format is the best. DVD-A is nice for spatial sound, but who gets up and moves around while listening to music anyway? SACD was originally designed for 2-channel stereo, which works out for most situations anyway...(we only have two ears...we usually don't care about spatial integrity.) SACD's 1-bit encoding and 2.8 MHz sampling really help in this regard. DVD-A uses 24-bit encoding and up to 192 KHs sampling for two channel audio, which audiophiles claim is not as good. I've never listened to an SACD, so I can't vouch for that. My PC plays DVD-A though, and it does sound very good.
That 7.1 PCI sound card is $89 at megamacs.com and they offer free shipping too. I saw this on dealmac this morning, I may get one after my PowerMac arrived.
<strong>Eh, more misinformation...why am I not surprised Matsu is involved?</strong><hr></blockquote>Easy, there, his post was entirely correct. He is simply pointing out that inclusion of DVD-A playback on DVD players is trivial for the engineering team. However, SACDs require significant hardware and software additions to a standard DVD player.
Someone else was pondering why higher definition audio formats have failed in the consumer market. I think the blame lies almost entirely on the RIAA. They are so concerned with preventing pirating of high bit rate digital signals that they have crippled all the new formats. They have decreed that manufacturers are only allowed to output digital signals at CD quality. In order to enjoy the improved sound quality, you must resort to older and more expensive analog cables. This also limits you to the digital to analog converters found in the player and precludes the use of receiver based digital crossovers common in multi-channel surround setups. Even worse, to enjoy the best quality sound, not only do you have to buy analog cables, but also you'll have to use 6 of them instead of one inexpensive digital coax or toslink cable.
It appears as if the recording industry is starting to realize its blunder. While they want to hinder piracy, their current copy-protection schemes have actually resulted in more lost sales than the sales being lost to pirates. Denon was able to negotiate an agreement allowing their players and receivers to send high quality digital sound via a single cable called the d-link. Pioneer has released a few firewire capable players and receivers.
Did the RIAA really think that people would pay money for high definition digital formats that can only be played in players that aren't allowed to output that format? The major labels deserve to go bankrupt!
I was led to believe that SACD discs are physically the same as DVD only the data recording (and thus decoding circuitry in any given player) is completely different. If true, a data DVD drive could read the bits off the disc, but you would need either a hardware or software codec to actually play it back.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I think Eugene was refering to this bit which may or may not be right according to what I've read. Leafing through a few home theatre rags, I saw this twice (but I don't remember which ones) -- that the disc is physically the same, but recorded in an entirely different way. Notice I used the conditional, I should have made it a great big bold "IF true..." because I don't entirely believe that's the case. There might be other differences that prevent you from burning SACD data onto a blank DVD-data disc in a computer DVD burning drive.
A plus side for that argument is that both DVD and SACD have both dual layer and hybrid discs (though there is virtually no use for hybrid DVD discs and they are rare.)
"The SACD specification is contained in the Scarlet Book. SACD discs are DVD discs in that they use the same sector size, error correction and modulation as DVD discs and the same file system (UDF plus ISO 9660)."
My bolding. According to this they are DVD discs, but like I said there may be something else that prevents you from making an SACD from blank DVD media (besides software)
In any case, I don't really think there's any good reason for SACD to exist, we coulda/shoulda/woulda been in a nice DVD-A/V world a lot sooner if these idiotic format wars didn't pop-up for no good reason at every conceivable turn.
Well, I have mine. Its better than the Creative card. Make sure you grab the latest drivers off their site if you get one.
older games like Giants and Quake 3 don't have any audio. the card functions properly as system audio is heard but the games audio never makes it to the card.
Games like MOHAA and Jedi Knight 2 that support EAX work great!
I currently have mine connected to an old Pioneer Dolby Prologic decoder deck set up in a 4.1 speaker configuration so, I'm not getting the most accurate stereo effects from the card. But all I need to do is upgrade my amp with a new dolby digital amp and I should have a true discreet sound field.
On the DVD front, Apples DVD software doesn't support anything more than stereo but, I hear(rumor) that there is a Linux player that does, and that it has been, or is being ported to OS X.
Comments
<strong>I'd heard all the reviews and was ready to lay down $150 on a nice Audiophile 2496 card for my G4, until I found out that M-Audio is coming out with a new card.
Enter the Revolution, a 7.1 PCI solution coming soon. The only question is when?
<a href="http://www.midiman.net/products/consumer/revolution_page1.php"; target="_blank">http://www.midiman.net/products/consumer/revolution_page1.php</a>;
This company was the first to get OS X drivers to the market and are continuing to support OS X and the Mac market.
I can't wait to purchase my Revolution 7.1 surround sound card.
[ 11-10-2002: Message edited by: TigerWoods99 ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
I had trouble with that link. Here's another that reveals a scaled down USB version coming soon too! Sonica Theater includes recording capability. A long overdue and sorely needed Cube, iBook, PowerBook and iMac solution. I hope 2003 will be the year that OS X audio solutions all appear robust and fully functional in droves.
<a href="http://www.m-audio.com/products/consumer/index.php"; target="_blank">http://www.m-audio.com/products/consumer/index.php</a>;
[ 11-23-2002: Message edited by: Multimedia ]</p>
It does mention the Mac, but is shy on details about system requirements. I guess we'll just have to wait and see.
Looks like theres a slight delay and we wont see the Revolution shipping until January.
I'll get a link to where that is and post it.
<strong>Will the card do SACD too, that is, will it decode DSD?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Certainly not for a $130 card
M-Audio has the product page up now:
<a href="http://www.m-audio.com/products/consumer/revolution_page1.php"; target="_blank">http://www.m-audio.com/products/consumer/revolution_page1.php</a>;
and check out the Japanese page
<a href="http://www.m-audio.co.jp/products/Revolution/Revolution.html"; target="_blank">http://www.m-audio.co.jp/products/Revolution/Revolution.html</a>;
Notice the Jaguar & G4 logos, as well as the screenshot in Mac OS X. This card should be awesome and I can't wait to shell out my $99!!
Im gonna call Best Buy soon to find out when they will be getting the card in.
<strong>
Certainly not for a $130 card
I was led to believe that SACD discs are physically the same as DVD only the data recording (and thus decoding circuitry in any given player) is completely different. If true, a data DVD drive could read the bits off the disc, but you would need either a hardware or software codec to actually play it back.
Man this sucks, huh matsu? We have to be going out and buying 12" PBs.
Though is there Surround Sound through FireWire? For us laptop people.
For all intents and purposes they offer the same quality with the exception that DVD-A would be (is?) ridiculously easy to implement in a DVD-V device while SACD requires a completely different approach to circuitry for little more than the extension and glorification of Phillips/Sony's patents. On that note alone SACD deserves a bastard child death, and Sony/phillips deserve our collective admonition for muddying the waters and delaying the rightful penetration of DVD-A. Bastards.
<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
When I saw that I realized you're right, SACD should be taken out back and shot. It's like all these damn DVD formats. Very annoying. I supposed DVD-A could have the same quality, even though it makes space for other stuff (vid, band info.) Why aren't there DVD-A Discmans and why hasn't the industry started phasing out CDs? It's like DVD, it could make them a lot of new money, reselling the same albums in higher quality DVD-A. I'm surprised they aren't jumping on this. Oh wait they're probably trying to implement new copy protection that breaks Macs.
[ 02-03-2003: Message edited by: TigerWoods99 ]</p>
until i can be sure that there will be games made for this card im not buying
In short, only the CD layer of hybrid SACDs are compatible with DVD players.
It's hard to say which format is the best. DVD-A is nice for spatial sound, but who gets up and moves around while listening to music anyway? SACD was originally designed for 2-channel stereo, which works out for most situations anyway...(we only have two ears...we usually don't care about spatial integrity.) SACD's 1-bit encoding and 2.8 MHz sampling really help in this regard. DVD-A uses 24-bit encoding and up to 192 KHs sampling for two channel audio, which audiophiles claim is not as good. I've never listened to an SACD, so I can't vouch for that. My PC plays DVD-A though, and it does sound very good.
[ 02-03-2003: Message edited by: Eugene ]</p>
Will the bundled software/games work on the Mac?
<strong>Eh, more misinformation...why am I not surprised Matsu is involved?</strong><hr></blockquote>Easy, there, his post was entirely correct. He is simply pointing out that inclusion of DVD-A playback on DVD players is trivial for the engineering team. However, SACDs require significant hardware and software additions to a standard DVD player.
Someone else was pondering why higher definition audio formats have failed in the consumer market. I think the blame lies almost entirely on the RIAA. They are so concerned with preventing pirating of high bit rate digital signals that they have crippled all the new formats. They have decreed that manufacturers are only allowed to output digital signals at CD quality. In order to enjoy the improved sound quality, you must resort to older and more expensive analog cables. This also limits you to the digital to analog converters found in the player and precludes the use of receiver based digital crossovers common in multi-channel surround setups. Even worse, to enjoy the best quality sound, not only do you have to buy analog cables, but also you'll have to use 6 of them instead of one inexpensive digital coax or toslink cable.
It appears as if the recording industry is starting to realize its blunder. While they want to hinder piracy, their current copy-protection schemes have actually resulted in more lost sales than the sales being lost to pirates. Denon was able to negotiate an agreement allowing their players and receivers to send high quality digital sound via a single cable called the d-link. Pioneer has released a few firewire capable players and receivers.
Did the RIAA really think that people would pay money for high definition digital formats that can only be played in players that aren't allowed to output that format? The major labels deserve to go bankrupt!
[ 02-04-2003: Message edited by: dfiler ]
[ 02-04-2003: Message edited by: dfiler ]</p>
<strong>
I was led to believe that SACD discs are physically the same as DVD only the data recording (and thus decoding circuitry in any given player) is completely different. If true, a data DVD drive could read the bits off the disc, but you would need either a hardware or software codec to actually play it back.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I think Eugene was refering to this bit which may or may not be right according to what I've read. Leafing through a few home theatre rags, I saw this twice (but I don't remember which ones) -- that the disc is physically the same, but recorded in an entirely different way. Notice I used the conditional, I should have made it a great big bold "IF true..." because I don't entirely believe that's the case. There might be other differences that prevent you from burning SACD data onto a blank DVD-data disc in a computer DVD burning drive.
A plus side for that argument is that both DVD and SACD have both dual layer and hybrid discs (though there is virtually no use for hybrid DVD discs and they are rare.)
I found <a href="http://www.disctronics.co.uk/technology/dvdaudio/dvdaud_sacd.htm"; target="_blank">this link</a> (which could be wrong, but this is now the third time I've read this) it reads:
"The SACD specification is contained in the Scarlet Book. SACD discs are DVD discs in that they use the same sector size, error correction and modulation as DVD discs and the same file system (UDF plus ISO 9660)."
My bolding. According to this they are DVD discs, but like I said there may be something else that prevents you from making an SACD from blank DVD media (besides software)
In any case, I don't really think there's any good reason for SACD to exist, we coulda/shoulda/woulda been in a nice DVD-A/V world a lot sooner if these idiotic format wars didn't pop-up for no good reason at every conceivable turn.
older games like Giants and Quake 3 don't have any audio. the card functions properly as system audio is heard but the games audio never makes it to the card.
Games like MOHAA and Jedi Knight 2 that support EAX work great!
I currently have mine connected to an old Pioneer Dolby Prologic decoder deck set up in a 4.1 speaker configuration so, I'm not getting the most accurate stereo effects from the card. But all I need to do is upgrade my amp with a new dolby digital amp and I should have a true discreet sound field.
On the DVD front, Apples DVD software doesn't support anything more than stereo but, I hear(rumor) that there is a Linux player that does, and that it has been, or is being ported to OS X.
My rig---------------------
Pioneer 701 Dolby Prologic Home theater reciever
JBL 12' 250W powered Sub
m40 Shielded mains <a href="http://www.samsontech.com/products/productpage.cfm?prodID=90&brandID=2"; target="_blank">See them here</a>
Pair of unshielded Dynamite 50's for rears
I reccomend the m40 kit for someone looking for a nice pair of shielded stereo speekers and amp. I fried my amp, however.