I'm not going to have this argument again, but could I at least put a word in for having windows resizable by dragging at all edges, and not one tiny 10x10 pixel area?
YES! Indeed. I want to be able to resize a window horizontally, vertically, on each window edge! So much better on Windows.
No, I'm really afraid I don't. Listening to ignorance just leads to more ignorance. And with that, y'all have fun, this thread is just pointless.
Sorry, but that's simply untrue. A power user, or a Mac geek will find where an option is, just give him time. A novice wont find it even if you gave him all the time in the world. So with Apple they try to design it in such a way that makes it easier for the novice to get on with it.That's what Apple is all about, ease of use. So in that sense you'll only get so far by listening to those that know it all.
Sorry, but that's simply untrue. A power user, or a Mac geek will find where an option is, just give him time. A novice wont find it even if you gave him all the time in the world. So with Apple they try to design it in such a way that makes it easier for the novice to get on with it.That's what Apple is all about, ease of use. So in that sense you'll only get so far by listening to those that know it all.
And with that you contradict yourself. You state:
- An expert (power user) will find the options.
- A novice won't.
- Apple designs solely for the novice (an assertion which I disagree with).
- Therefore, Apple needs to listen to the non-expert novices, who don't know what they're talking about?
You're simply not making any sense here, Ireland. Novices by definition don't know what they need or want - they are the ones that need to have a system designed for them, not the ones who should be designing systems.
Maximize on the Mac is like putting a fried chicken bucket holder on everyone's dashboard. A few people will use it, a couple people might even get off on it, but it's just in most people's way, and trying to use it just makes using the main control device, the steering wheel, that much harder because now your hands are greasy.
No, you don't. You've just given a good example of where it hasn't been implemented properly.
The folder doesn't need to fill the screen in order to show all the contents. There is extra, pointless white space in the window when it has been maximised.
The Finder's zoom does work a lot better in column view. Not that I want to make excuses. The fact that Apple haven't implemented zoom properly in icon view is another reason for the fabled call: FTFF!!
Wow, you're in denial. Who would prefer having to scroll, especially when Exposé and the like are in play, versus having a little bit of extra white space in a window? My point is that Zoom is, a ton of the time, the complete antithesis of what you want.
Wow, you're in denial. Who would prefer having to scroll, especially when Exposé and the like are in play, versus having a little bit of extra white space in a window? My point is that Zoom is, a ton of the time, the complete antithesis of what you want.
Look, it is so simple. Programming the button as maximise is deeply lazy and totally pointless.
If the window needs to fill the screen in order to show all of, or as much as possible of, its contents, then pressing zoom will (if it's been implemented properly) maximise the window. If the window doesn't need to fill the screen in order to show all the contents, then zoom won't maximise. What the hell is wrong with that? Why do you want windows to be bigger than they need to be?
In the case you posted, the window does not need to fill the screen in order to both show all the contents and have no scroll bars. Just because the Finder doesn't implement zoom properly doesn't mean zoom should be removed and replaced with the cack-handed maximise "feature".
However, in that context, and many others that come to mind without much difficulty, maximize serves better than zoom.
Why do you find this so hard to understand? If the window needs to fill the screen to show all the contents, then zoom will maximise the window. Therefore maximise does not serve better than zoom "in that context" because both achieve exactly the same result.
Why would you want to maximise a window if it doesn't need to fill the screen in order to show all its contents?
If I'm working on a thirty-by-thirty pixel icon in Photoshop, I don't want my window to be 30x30, I want it to occupy the whole screen so I can zoom all over it and work around it. If I have a thumbnailed gallery open in Safari, pressing Zoom won't make it the width of the screen, an action which would make it the easiest to view all the thumbnails without scrolling. If I open Preview, I have to do a multitude of steps to view the image as big as possible: I have to drag the window to manually fit the screen, which is a pain in the ass, and then choose Zoom To Fit.
- Apple designs solely for the novice (an assertion which I disagree with).
I never said Apple designs solely for the novice, I just am insinuating they listen to both sides of the story. In a podcast last year the project leader behind iWork said exactly that. "Apple tries to cater for and listen to both advanced users and beginners. That's what we had in mind when designing iWork."
If I'm working on a thirty-by-thirty pixel icon in Photoshop, I don't want my window to be 30x30, I want it to occupy the whole screen so I can zoom all over it and work around it. If I have a thumbnailed gallery open in Safari, pressing Zoom won't make it the width of the screen, an action which would make it the easiest to view all the thumbnails without scrolling. If I open Preview, I have to do a multitude of steps to view the image as big as possible: I have to drag the window to manually fit the screen, which is a pain in the ass, and then choose Zoom To Fit.
Bzzzzt. Hit Zoom In several times, THEN hit the green Zoom widget. Boom. Set the magnification level, and *THEN* hit Zoom, and it does EXACTLY what you want.
That 30x30 icon? Same thing. Zoom in to the level you want, then hit the Zoom widget. Bingo.
The window will be no bigger than it needs to be *AND* as big as you want it for the content.
Instead of making the window as big as possible, and hoping the app does the right thing with the content, set the content to what you want, and the app/Zoom will then do the right thing based on the content. Don't feel bad, I used to do the same thing, then I realized I was going about it all ass-backwards.
Unless it's the Finder, of course, but we all know that kind of sucks.
The minimize button should minimize to the task bar, except sometimes when it minimizes to the system tray and other times when it turns the full-sized iTunes player into a mini-iTunes player.
I never said Apple designs solely for the novice, I just am insinuating they listen to both sides of the story. In a podcast last year the project leader behind iWork said exactly that. "Apple tries to cater for and listen to both advanced users and beginners. That's what we had in mind when designing iWork."
Ah, but here's where your (I can only assume) argument that Maximize is a necessary novice feature breaks down...
You don't design a novice UI *AND* an expert UI. You design a powerful, expert UI based on simple principles, such that a novice can learn basic functionality and approaches, and, *using those same techniques*, leverage them into an expert level use of the UI.
Maximize hobbles drag and drop horribly. Period. End of story. It makes it so that the average novice will *never* learn that drag and drop exists between apps... and they'll never get up the learning curve.
You just made the learning curve into a cliff. Nice going there, Slick.
Just because Windows can't implement inter-app drag and drop intelligently doesn't mean that the UI in MacOS X should be dumbed down to cater to switchers. Inter-app drag and drop is one of the most powerful, most *basic* things in MacOS X, that having Maximize as the default, or even as a *toggle* to default, does every new user or switcher a great disservice.
As I've said before, a modifier key for clicking on the green widget to make it convert to Maximize *for that one click*, I can understand. But really, it's a bad feature, it's a dumb feature, and it needs to die out.
Comments
The point being Apple is about ease of use, and sometimes it's about listening to the people who have no clue too. You get me?
No, I'm really afraid I don't. Listening to ignorance just leads to more ignorance. And with that, y'all have fun, this thread is just pointless.
I'm not going to have this argument again, but could I at least put a word in for having windows resizable by dragging at all edges, and not one tiny 10x10 pixel area?
YES! Indeed. I want to be able to resize a window horizontally, vertically, on each window edge! So much better on Windows.
No, I'm really afraid I don't. Listening to ignorance just leads to more ignorance. And with that, y'all have fun, this thread is just pointless.
Sorry, but that's simply untrue. A power user, or a Mac geek will find where an option is, just give him time. A novice wont find it even if you gave him all the time in the world. So with Apple they try to design it in such a way that makes it easier for the novice to get on with it.That's what Apple is all about, ease of use. So in that sense you'll only get so far by listening to those that know it all.
Sorry, but that's simply untrue. A power user, or a Mac geek will find where an option is, just give him time. A novice wont find it even if you gave him all the time in the world. So with Apple they try to design it in such a way that makes it easier for the novice to get on with it.That's what Apple is all about, ease of use. So in that sense you'll only get so far by listening to those that know it all.
And with that you contradict yourself. You state:
- An expert (power user) will find the options.
- A novice won't.
- Apple designs solely for the novice (an assertion which I disagree with).
- Therefore, Apple needs to listen to the non-expert novices, who don't know what they're talking about?
You're simply not making any sense here, Ireland. Novices by definition don't know what they need or want - they are the ones that need to have a system designed for them, not the ones who should be designing systems.
Maximize on the Mac is like putting a fried chicken bucket holder on everyone's dashboard. A few people will use it, a couple people might even get off on it, but it's just in most people's way, and trying to use it just makes using the main control device, the steering wheel, that much harder because now your hands are greasy.
Let's see why Zoom sucks:
Exhibit one. My Applications folder as I browsed to it.
Exhibit two: I press Zoom, and:
...I get that. Great.
Now, if it had been the Maximize button, I would've been free of scrollbars entirely!
But I guess I just don't understand Zoom, right?
But I guess I just don't understand Zoom, right?
No, you don't. You've just given a good example of where it hasn't been implemented properly.
The folder doesn't need to fill the screen in order to show all the contents. There is extra, pointless white space in the window when it has been maximised.
The Finder's zoom does work a lot better in column view. Not that I want to make excuses. The fact that Apple haven't implemented zoom properly in icon view is another reason for the fabled call: FTFF!!
Wow, you're in denial. Who would prefer having to scroll, especially when Exposé and the like are in play, versus having a little bit of extra white space in a window? My point is that Zoom is, a ton of the time, the complete antithesis of what you want.
Look, it is so simple. Programming the button as maximise is deeply lazy and totally pointless.
If the window needs to fill the screen in order to show all of, or as much as possible of, its contents, then pressing zoom will (if it's been implemented properly) maximise the window. If the window doesn't need to fill the screen in order to show all the contents, then zoom won't maximise. What the hell is wrong with that? Why do you want windows to be bigger than they need to be?
In the case you posted, the window does not need to fill the screen in order to both show all the contents and have no scroll bars. Just because the Finder doesn't implement zoom properly doesn't mean zoom should be removed and replaced with the cack-handed maximise "feature".
However, in that context, and many others that come to mind without much difficulty, maximize serves better than zoom.
Why do you find this so hard to understand? If the window needs to fill the screen to show all the contents, then zoom will maximise the window. Therefore maximise does not serve better than zoom "in that context" because both achieve exactly the same result.
Why would you want to maximise a window if it doesn't need to fill the screen in order to show all its contents?
The zoom button should return to the OS 9 behavior:
click: zoom
option-click: maximize
Indeed. This is how the zoom should work, but I cannot find one single window on my OS 9 machine that behaves that way.
- Apple designs solely for the novice (an assertion which I disagree with).
I never said Apple designs solely for the novice, I just am insinuating they listen to both sides of the story. In a podcast last year the project leader behind iWork said exactly that. "Apple tries to cater for and listen to both advanced users and beginners. That's what we had in mind when designing iWork."
If I'm working on a thirty-by-thirty pixel icon in Photoshop, I don't want my window to be 30x30, I want it to occupy the whole screen so I can zoom all over it and work around it. If I have a thumbnailed gallery open in Safari, pressing Zoom won't make it the width of the screen, an action which would make it the easiest to view all the thumbnails without scrolling. If I open Preview, I have to do a multitude of steps to view the image as big as possible: I have to drag the window to manually fit the screen, which is a pain in the ass, and then choose Zoom To Fit.
Bzzzzt. Hit Zoom In several times, THEN hit the green Zoom widget. Boom. Set the magnification level, and *THEN* hit Zoom, and it does EXACTLY what you want.
That 30x30 icon? Same thing. Zoom in to the level you want, then hit the Zoom widget. Bingo.
The window will be no bigger than it needs to be *AND* as big as you want it for the content.
Instead of making the window as big as possible, and hoping the app does the right thing with the content, set the content to what you want, and the app/Zoom will then do the right thing based on the content. Don't feel bad, I used to do the same thing, then I realized I was going about it all ass-backwards.
Unless it's the Finder, of course, but we all know that kind of sucks.
I never said Apple designs solely for the novice, I just am insinuating they listen to both sides of the story. In a podcast last year the project leader behind iWork said exactly that. "Apple tries to cater for and listen to both advanced users and beginners. That's what we had in mind when designing iWork."
Ah, but here's where your (I can only assume) argument that Maximize is a necessary novice feature breaks down...
You don't design a novice UI *AND* an expert UI. You design a powerful, expert UI based on simple principles, such that a novice can learn basic functionality and approaches, and, *using those same techniques*, leverage them into an expert level use of the UI.
Maximize hobbles drag and drop horribly. Period. End of story. It makes it so that the average novice will *never* learn that drag and drop exists between apps... and they'll never get up the learning curve.
You just made the learning curve into a cliff. Nice going there, Slick.
Just because Windows can't implement inter-app drag and drop intelligently doesn't mean that the UI in MacOS X should be dumbed down to cater to switchers. Inter-app drag and drop is one of the most powerful, most *basic* things in MacOS X, that having Maximize as the default, or even as a *toggle* to default, does every new user or switcher a great disservice.
As I've said before, a modifier key for clicking on the green widget to make it convert to Maximize *for that one click*, I can understand. But really, it's a bad feature, it's a dumb feature, and it needs to die out.
We'll agree to disagree, cause whatever I say you just going to reply to anyway, and I've a life outside forums. Talk again later.
You mean your life on digg?