The Bible has a lot of stories that are not only told in the Bible, but in other cultures, such as the flood. The flood story varies in many ways, but the difference with the Bible is that it is God-breathed. Obviously if you don't believe in God then this doesn't mean a thing, but that is why it is absolute truth. That is obviously hard to test if you doubt the validity of the Bible. One aspect is that the Bible actually has some much more believable, honest aspects of its stories. For example, sticking with the flood story, many cultures' stories end up with Noah (or whatever they call him) being granted immortality. The Bible talked about Noah's sin after, which is a much more realistic and truthful view.
It actually is possible for Noah to have gotten all the animals onto the arc. One possiblility is that the tectonic plates were not moved over billions of years, but during the flood. This makes sense since water came up from the ground. If the tectonic plates were together then, then the animals could easily have been found. It is also stated that God called the animals to Noah. That seems possible since God did it.
You and I have several genes in our DNA that aren't shown in our appearance. You could have a gene for blue eyes, but actually have brown eyes. Genes are obviously way more complicated than that, but my point is that Adam and Eve had the genes in them. Through the incest that took place, certain attributes were exaggerated, such as dark skin or small eyes, and that is how we get the many "races" today. All the genes were there from the beginning, it depends on what genes are turned on, or are dominant, and that's how the outward appearance of people comes out.
Humans can know what God expects from us because God told us, through the Bible, and Jesus Christ, who is God. Why would a creator not communicate with what He created? We are created in His image, and I don't see why God wouldn't want to communicate with us and have a relationship. God is very much relational. Humans are very much relational, because we're created by God.
I doubt anything I say will convince any of you that there is a God, or that the Bible is the word of God that is absolutely true with no faults. I am convinced of it because of how I have seen God everywhere, in His creation, in my life, in so many aspects. We made up the word coincidence, which is a silly thing because the chances of some things coming together like they do are ridiculous. I've seen it so many times in my life. If you look at DNA, or how a cell works, and try to explain it by saying it happened by chance with no mind behind it, that just doesn't make sense to me. Some of you do believe in a creator or designer of the universe. I encourage you to research and explore and you'll find that the creator gave us the Bible, and then Jesus Christ. There are no contradictions. Christianity, unlike other religions, encourages you to challenge it, test it, make sure it's truth.
All I can do is tell you to do that and hope that you'll see God as I have seen Him. Don't go into it expecting not to see anything, because then anything you see you'll ignore because you don't want to hear it. A lot of us don't want to believe in a God because then we're accountable to Him, which means we're not all that. If you search, honestly search, you'll find that there is a God, and He wants a relationship with you. I'm not trying to sound cheesy, but it's the truth. There is a heaven and hell and it's one or the other for eternity.
You don't think it's even slightly big-headed for humans to think they've been created in the image of a omniscient, omnipotent, everlasting, all-powerful mythical being?
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Originally Posted by Homestar06
I am convinced of it because of how I have seen God everywhere, in His creation, in my life, in so many aspects.
You see God everywhere because that is what you want to see.
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Originally Posted by Homestar06
We made up the word coincidence, which is a silly thing because the chances of some things coming together like they do are ridiculous.
Like the probability of a certain number sequence coming up in the lottery? Just because something is unlikely, doesn't mean that if it does happen, some intelligence must have made it happen.
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Originally Posted by Homestar06
If you look at … how a cell works, and try to explain it by saying it happened by chance with no mind behind it, that just doesn't make sense to me.
You don't see any contradiction in thinking that an omniscient, omnipotent, everlasting being can "just exist", but that life couldn't have come about through chance meetings of the right elements at the right time?
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Originally Posted by Homestar06
There is a heaven and hell and it's one or the other for eternity.
the fact that so many people can believe stuff like this boggles my mind.
It actually is possible for Noah to have gotten all the animals onto the arc. One possiblility is that the tectonic plates were not moved over billions of years, but during the flood. This makes sense since water came up from the ground. If the tectonic plates were together then, then the animals could easily have been found. It is also stated that God called the animals to Noah. That seems possible since God did it.
With all due respect, this is more than likely not what happened. To have all of the tectonic plates seperate from each other in one event would be well documented both in language and in nature's preservers, such as trees, soil samples (from the waterbed as well), ice, etc. The most recent drastic event that could have triggered this happened roughly 75,000 years ago according to scientists' theories on mega-volcanos.
The stories of the bible are to be interpreted the same way as Jesus' teachings which are recorded in the NT, or at least that's how it should be interpreted IMO.
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You and I have several genes in our DNA that aren't shown in our appearance. You could have a gene for blue eyes, but actually have brown eyes. Genes are obviously way more complicated than that, but my point is that Adam and Eve had the genes in them. Through the incest that took place, certain attributes were exaggerated, such as dark skin or small eyes, and that is how we get the many "races" today. All the genes were there from the beginning, it depends on what genes are turned on, or are dominant, and that's how the outward appearance of people comes out.
Partially true, but also location plays a signifcant role in how humans look and interact. Why do Japenese look the way they do? Why the subtle transition in appearances from China and Mongolia to the Middle east and Europe? Why don't Chinese have blonde hair if its in their genes?
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Humans can know what God expects from us because God told us, through the Bible, and Jesus Christ, who is God. Why would a creator not communicate with what He created? We are created in His image, and I don't see why God wouldn't want to communicate with us and have a relationship. God is very much relational. Humans are very much relational, because we're created by God.
This statement is actually a contradiction to why I do believe in God.
I believe that the human mind is the greatest gift in the known universe, and that it has been wired to evolve into religion. We are wired to receive God, but we can also wire ourselves to know God but not accept God.
I do not believe in a God that would attempt to communicate with us, but rather a God that is silent. I think we would all be frightened and not live the lives we live today if we had a controlling God. A good example of this is the exceptional novel The Chosen by Chaim Potok (sp?). We are closer to a God that is far from us than a God that is close to us. It is unconditional love that God seeks.
Everyone sees God in a different way, whether they believe in one or not. Most religions share the same function, and that's purpose. Purpose can still be found within ourselves and what we see everyday according to our beliefs on reality.
The Bible has a lot of stories that are not only told in the Bible, but in other cultures, such as the flood. The flood story varies in many ways, but the difference with the Bible is that it is God-breathed. Obviously if you don't believe in God then this doesn't mean a thing, but that is why it is absolute truth. That is obviously hard to test if you doubt the validity of the Bible. One aspect is that the Bible actually has some much more believable, honest aspects of its stories. For example, sticking with the flood story, many cultures' stories end up with Noah (or whatever they call him) being granted immortality. The Bible talked about Noah's sin after, which is a much more realistic and truthful view.
It actually is possible for Noah to have gotten all the animals onto the arc. One possiblility is that the tectonic plates were not moved over billions of years, but during the flood. This makes sense since water came up from the ground. If the tectonic plates were together then, then the animals could easily have been found. It is also stated that God called the animals to Noah. That seems possible since God did it.
There are very likely many events who really occured, but you might know the "phone game" where you deliver a message from person to person. Even if you don't intend to, the message gets changed eventually, some exagerate, some leave out parts and other make things up.
At times at which only very few could read/write, such stories could change dramaticly during the time, so it's mostly impossible to diverse fact from fiction.
But before I write further, do you believe in creatonism? Because if you do, a discussion is impossible (example: timespan of mankind is far to small for huge changes in plate tectonics).
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Originally Posted by Homestar06
Humans can know what God expects from us because God told us, through the Bible, and Jesus Christ, who is God. Why would a creator not communicate with what He created? We are created in His image, and I don't see why God wouldn't want to communicate with us and have a relationship. God is very much relational. Humans are very much relational, because we're created by God.
The problem her lies at the point that you act on the assumption that cristianity is the one religion, more than half the planet would disagree with you....
How could god, as described in the bible, want to let there be any doubt about his existance?
Why exist countries were cristianity is nearly non-existant, are this all bad people who deserve to burn in hell forever?
What's about all the other religions, should all this people go to hell as well?
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Originally Posted by Homestar06
I doubt anything I say will convince any of you that there is a God, or that the Bible is the word of God that is absolutely true with no faults. I am convinced of it because of how I have seen God everywhere, in His creation, in my life, in so many aspects. We made up the word coincidence, which is a silly thing because the chances of some things coming together like they do are ridiculous. I've seen it so many times in my life.
As I said, I do believe in some sort of god, you just have to look at nature (of which we are part of) and wonderful things like love.
However I'm 100% sure that god differs from what's written in the bible/koran.
The chance that there's an intelligent lifeform in the universe who uses a nickname "Homestar06" to write today about religion is about 1:infinity.
But does this mean, the "god" is the one described in the bible?
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Originally Posted by Homestar06
If you look at DNA, or how a cell works, and try to explain it by saying it happened by chance with no mind behind it, that just doesn't make sense to me. Some of you do believe in a creator or designer of the universe. I encourage you to research and explore and you'll find that the creator gave us the Bible, and then Jesus Christ. There are no contradictions. Christianity, unlike other religions, encourages you to challenge it, test it, make sure it's truth.
A big part of religion is about its interpretation. I bet there are some muslims who wrote something pretty identical, just replace Bible with Kora, Jusus with Allah etc. While other muslims use their religion as a political instrument (like the crusades).
My definition of god is not a designer of the universe, it's the connection between chemistry and life, the "thing" that made things grow, feel and think.
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Originally Posted by Homestar06
All I can do is tell you to do that and hope that you'll see God as I have seen Him. Don't go into it expecting not to see anything, because then anything you see you'll ignore because you don't want to hear it. A lot of us don't want to believe in a God because then we're accountable to Him, which means we're not all that. If you search, honestly search, you'll find that there is a God, and He wants a relationship with you. I'm not trying to sound cheesy, but it's the truth.
I think you're right in some points, but as stated before, I see no (unique) link to the bible.
And I hope you dont focus only on "your" religion. What ever gave us our intelligence wanted us to challenge our existance, so do the same with the bible.
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Originally Posted by Homestar06
There is a heaven and hell and it's one or the other for eternity.
This is where my problems with religion like cristianity starts, it lacks in tolerance, it preaches things which leed to death (see aids in africa), it declares different people as sick (see gays) etc.
Eventhough I'm neither african or gay this doesn't sound to me as beeing from a kindhearted god or one of its true servants...
There were lots of replies and I won't be able to get to all of them. No, it's not because I can't explain some and I'm too scared to admit that I'm living my life for the completely wrong thing. I want to know the truth just like everyone in this forum. We all want to know the truth. What's the point if everything we know and believe is false? I guess some people do think ignorance is bliss, but I think deep down everyone wants to know there is a meaning to it and truth in that meaning. I'm not even sure where to start here. Thanks for all the replies. Everyone is thinking, which is good, but almost everyone tends to run away from Christianity. Christianity tends to be the religion that people either grasp with everything, or abhor. ...well thats not entirely true. There are plenty of people who claim to be Christians but don't live as if they are. Anyways, that's a bit off topic.
To say Christianity lacks in tolerance is an absolutely true statement. You have to understand the context first. God is the omniscient, omnipotent, all powerful creator of everything. (according to the Bible). God is a perfect, holy God. If He created humans to worship Him, (which He did according to the Bible), then why would He let just anyone be in heaven with Him? There would be no point if we were robots who had no choice in worshiping God. That's the beauty of this discussion. We all have free will to accept God and worship Him, or deny Him and do nothing. The other beautiful (and yes, truly beautiful) thing is that sinners, people who are imperfect (all of us) actually can get to heaven. God made a way for us. My point is that He didn't make robots to worship Him, that's pointless. If any of you have children, it's much more meaningful when your kids obey you because they have the choice not to. It wouldn't mean anything if they didn't have a choice. I think this is a hard thing to grasp (not confusing or "above" anyone) when you don't actually believe in God and the Bible. Not that I'm any smarter than anyone, I'm probably the least intelligent of anyone in this forum. I'm just saying that people who don't believe in God have a hard time accepting that there would be a Hell and God would allow people to go to Hell. It's not because He doesn't want us in heaven, it's because we choose to deny God and we're imperfect and aren't fit to be in His presence.
One quick thing about evolution vs creation. The probabilities that have been calculated, by evolutionists, are far far beyond the impossibility threshold. The impossibility threshold, to my knowledge, is 1 in 1*10^50. The chances calculated for the smallest simplest organizm to evolve and form is 1 in 1*10^340 million. The chance for life to evolve as it has now is way smaller. That one is 1 in 1*10^2 Trillion. 1 in 1*10^50 is considered scientifically impossible.
Think about how many specific details have to come together for us to even live and breathe. The earth has to be tilted at 23 degrees. The earth has to be the distance it is away from the sun. Any closer and we'd burn up, and further and we'd freeze. If the earth was spinning at a different speed it wouldn't work. The moon and the tides it causes are essential for life. That stuff is just to do with earth. Then think about the atmosphere, the gases and the environment. Then our bodies, how they are made up. The DNA. There are a lot of things that are irreducibly complex. I won't go into that, it seems like a lot of people agree that there is a God. sorry for that rant, that stuff just amazes me.
What exactly do you mean when you say Christianity preaches things that lead to death like AIDS and declaring people sick? If you mean it doesn't make sense for a God to make bad things, then you're right. The only reason those came about is because we turned from God and sinned. Evil entered the world and you get AIDS and diseases.
There are countries where Christianity is nearly non-existant because people have chosen not to follow God and Christ. It all started in the middle east, but almost all of that is muslim.
Honestly, I know very very little about plate tectonics. I don't know how things worked. Creationism doesn't always mean a young earth though. Some creationists believe there could have been lots of time between the days that God created things. There wasn't a sun for some of those days so that 24 hour period, no one really knows.
The historical facts in the Bible are often duplicated in other history books. I can't explain every one obviously, but there is lots of evidence that the Bible is valid. Check out the book "Evidence that demands a verdict" by Josh McDowell. The author set out to prove that the Bible wasn't valid and it wasn't trustworthy and he came out with a different conclusion than he expected. It goes through the old testament and new testament and explains how they are in fact trustworthy sources.
Like I said before, I doubt anyone is going to change their mind by the end of this discussion. Look deeper. If you believe there is a god but not the god described in the Bible or the Koran, then find out who that God is. If you believe there is a god but that he's not a personal God at all, then find out who that god is. Why isn't he personal? Could he be? Ask questions. I am asking questions to, validating that what I believe is true, or maybe it isn't. Currently I have found nothing contradictory or not trustworthy about the Bible and the fact that there is a God is apparent to me as it is to some of you. If there is a contradiction or if it's not true, I certainly want to know. And if there are no contradictions to the Bible and it is in fact true, then I would think y'all (I'm in the south right now, I can say that) would want to know too. Sorry if this was long and if I rambled needlessly a bit.
Really? If you do believe in God and there is none, it won't hurt you? Not at all? Financially? In terms of time? Life enjoyment (if you haven't tried sex for pleasure, trust me, you're being hurt).
Do you realize that this becomes a non-issue? Because if you believe in a God, and there is none, you will probably realize this until after you die, (if at all! or maybe you don't even have time to realize it, because, without a God, under this scenario there may not be an afterlife) so you don't really lose anything. When it's all said and done and you have lived, it doesn't really matter anymore. You may not even exist to realize it and evaluate those choices. See the irony? So it's good to believe.
Whether we believe or not shouldn't be based on the result. Earlier in the forum someone posted something about believing just enough to save us from hell. That's not really how it works, and doesn't make much sense either. C.S. Lewis (first a strong atheist, later a strong Christian) put it well when he said, "Talk to me about the truth of religion and I'll listen gladly. Talk to me about the duty of religion and I'll listen submissively. But don't come talking to me about the consolations of religion or I shall suspect that you don't understand."
He's absolutely right. If all we're worried about is the consolations, we're wrong. It's not so we get to heaven, or so we feel better. It's that we're worshiping the creator of the universe and discovering more and more each day who He is. It's awesome and humbling and brings so much joy and excitement. Don't believe so you can get to heaven, if you are, I shall suspect that you don't understand.
there's also the fact that some people enjoy believing there is a God. I would feel pretty desolated if in my mind I believed there was no God out there.
So, for me, believing there is a God is not only a matter of faith, and salvation of my soul... it actually makes me feel good and happy to believe there is higher being, a creator.
The probabilities that have been calculated, by evolutionists, are far far beyond the impossibility threshold. The impossibility threshold, to my knowledge, is 1 in 1*10^50. The chances calculated for the smallest simplest organizm to evolve and form is 1 in 1*10^340 million. The chance for life to evolve as it has now is way smaller. That one is 1 in 1*10^2 Trillion. 1 in 1*10^50 is considered scientifically impossible.
Sorry, but you just don't understand probability. There is no "impossibility threshold". If something's impossible, it has a probability of exactly 0. Not nearly zero, exactly zero.
As an example, let's say I get 1000 balls, and number them from 1 to 1000. Now, if I am to choose 26 of those balls at random, the probability of any one sequence of numbers being chosen is 1 in 1.787 * 10^51, i.e., below your so-called "impossibility threshold". By your reasoning, it would be impossible to select 26 balls, because the sequence of numbers that would occur would have had a probability below the "impossibility threshold" before the draw was made. Hopefully it is obvious to you that it is in fact rather trivial to pick 26 balls from 1000.
Obviously it has to be 0 to really be impossible. You misunderstood my point. If the chance of something happening is less than 1 in 1*10^50 than scientists consider it impossible. I've heard that number vary a bit, from 1*10^40 to 1*10^60. If you noticed, the probability calculated by evolutionists of even the most primative cell evolving are way way way beyond that. Not even close. Darwin didn't know nearly as much as we do now. Now that we know what we do, we see that the chances of things really evolving like darwin thought they might have are way way too small. It's a ridiculous thing to believe in with the knowledge we have today. I don't know about you, but I think it takes more faith to believe in 1 in 1*10^2,000,000,000,000 than to believe in an intelligent designer of the universe. Take a look at that number, it's not 2 trillion. It's 1 with 2 trillion zeroes. That's crazy. A number given by evolutionists, not creationists.
May I suggest everyone ignore MarcUK's religion-related posts.
Yes, because its far too stressful for a Christian to wonder why Jesus is going around resurrecting the pagan gods they are told to despise. So instead of wondering why and finding out - which could lead you to a place of better understanding of the Jesus story- its better to be ignorant and pretend that Jesus didn't resurrect a certain sun-diety - "El-Osiris"
Yet it is there in "Black and White" in the gospel of John. Its is there for a "definate reason" and unless you ask yourself and find out why Jesus is going around resurrecting Pagan Gods to "prove a point" , you will forever have to be completely ignorant about this story in the Bible - which begs the question "how many other stories are you chosing to ignorant of in the Bible, because the truth in these stories, conflicts with your faith, beliefs and fantasies?
And if you "willfully chose" to be "ignorant" about the meaning of the stories in the Bible, how can you call yourselves Christians with any kind of "integrity"?
Jesus raises a pagan God. If you believe in Jesus, you have to accept that this is what he did because the Bible says so. Why did he do it? He could have raised millions of people to make thier families happy, impress the pagans, prove his divinity - Yet he doesn't do that, instead he raises the pagan God El-Osiris.- There is a more profound reason than wanting to impress people with sleight-of-hand magic tricks. If you truly believe in the truth of Jesus - Find out what it is.
If you don't accept that, then you dont believe in Jesus or the divine truth of the Gospels. The Jesus you do believe in is false, and the Gospels are lies. False liars are Cunts.
Obviously it has to be 0 to really be impossible. You misunderstood my point. If the chance of something happening is less than 1 in 1*10^50 than scientists consider it impossible.
"I know it's not really impossible, but, it's impossible"
Go back to the time of Adam & Eve (if you believe in that). At that moment in time, what was the probability of you and me having this discussion right here, right now, via this medium? Way, way, way, way, way lower than 1 in 10^60 - and yet - here we are - it's happening! Incredible huh?
You can believe that there is an intelligence behind the creation of the cell, but even if you do believe that, you're still left with some mind-f**king questions like "where did that intelligence come from?".
Obviously it has to be 0 to really be impossible. You misunderstood my point. If the chance of something happening is less than 1 in 1*10^50 than scientists consider it impossible. I've heard that number vary a bit, from 1*10^40 to 1*10^60. If you noticed, the probability calculated by evolutionists of even the most primative cell evolving are way way way beyond that. Not even close. Darwin didn't know nearly as much as we do now. Now that we know what we do, we see that the chances of things really evolving like darwin thought they might have are way way too small. It's a ridiculous thing to believe in with the knowledge we have today. I don't know about you, but I think it takes more faith to believe in 1 in 1*10^2,000,000,000,000 than to believe in an intelligent designer of the universe. Take a look at that number, it's not 2 trillion. It's 1 with 2 trillion zeroes. That's crazy. A number given by evolutionists, not creationists.
For a start, no scientist ever calculated the odds to be 1 with 2 trillion trailing zeroes. That is a lie, and you might wonder why the source of this information wants you to believe in lies, and how he/she benefits from it.
Now, who is this Intelligent Designer you speak humbly of?
If God is all-powerful and created us in his image in order to worship him, and if we turned from him, then he is by definition not all powerful because he created something that was imperfect.
Why, also, does god need people to worship him? If he alone indeed created the entire world, why was he not satisfied? What insecurities has he got? Some that are similar to those that people have? Then he is just like the rest of us.
If he resurrects a pagan god, then there are other gods, and god is being rather selfish in demanding that humans worship only him.
Just got back from watch Stone's movie World Trade Center. One of the guys in it saw Jesus coming to him... why then did Jesus not choose to visit everyone before the planes hit the building and protect them from the harm?
Back to the Ark: what volume of space would be required for all them beasts, bugs and other critters? How were all of the different species of insects kept? Definitely not all in one open space. If only two of each were on the ark, and some critters have very short lifespans (a housefly lives for 20 days or so), how many species would have survived the trip? What about those animals which live in certain climates but cannot survive in others? What about the plants? God forgot the plants that would have died too.
If it only took him 6 days to create the earth (and he needed a day of rest after that strenuous effort), why did it take him so long to destroy life on it? He could have likely spent just another six days dismantling things... sounds like a logical step for an omniscient being.
How much food would have been necessary to support al of this wildlife for so long? What about diseases and infections? Would they have not run rampant on the ark? It says 220 days. I just can't imagine how this would work. There was no pizza delivery in those days.
Whilst I agree that MarkUK did himself no favours by using such derogatory profanity, that is no good reason to ignore the rest of his valid points.
The vast majority of Christians (and other faiths too, presumably, but I've not had religion-related discussions with them) do tend to take the bits of the Bible that they like at face value, but other more "difficult" parts have to be "interpreted" in order to be "understood" correctly. How convenient.
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Originally Posted by Bergermeister
Back to the Ark
People who think that a guy called Noah actually saved all life on earth (i.e. that had it not been for Noah (helped a bit by God), then no land-borne life would be here now) are deluded. They have no concept of the vast numbers of different species alive in the world today.
What the Noah story does tell us, as it is corroborated (as far as I know) in all other major religions, is that there was a major flood around the time that those scriptures were written. Maybe there was even a guy called Noah who thought that he was "saving" all life on earth by building a big boat and collecting up pairs of animals. But one man collecting up all life on earth, putting them in a sail-able boat and keeping them alive for 150 days - this isimpossible (unless, of course, God "bent" the laws of physics to allow Noah to complete his task).
Oh, and while we're at it, the story of Noah does contain a good contradiction: God is meant to be all-loving, but he "got angry" with all life on earth and decided to murder it with a great flood? Doesn't sound very loving to me.
Comments
It actually is possible for Noah to have gotten all the animals onto the arc. One possiblility is that the tectonic plates were not moved over billions of years, but during the flood. This makes sense since water came up from the ground. If the tectonic plates were together then, then the animals could easily have been found. It is also stated that God called the animals to Noah. That seems possible since God did it.
You and I have several genes in our DNA that aren't shown in our appearance. You could have a gene for blue eyes, but actually have brown eyes. Genes are obviously way more complicated than that, but my point is that Adam and Eve had the genes in them. Through the incest that took place, certain attributes were exaggerated, such as dark skin or small eyes, and that is how we get the many "races" today. All the genes were there from the beginning, it depends on what genes are turned on, or are dominant, and that's how the outward appearance of people comes out.
Humans can know what God expects from us because God told us, through the Bible, and Jesus Christ, who is God. Why would a creator not communicate with what He created? We are created in His image, and I don't see why God wouldn't want to communicate with us and have a relationship. God is very much relational. Humans are very much relational, because we're created by God.
I doubt anything I say will convince any of you that there is a God, or that the Bible is the word of God that is absolutely true with no faults. I am convinced of it because of how I have seen God everywhere, in His creation, in my life, in so many aspects. We made up the word coincidence, which is a silly thing because the chances of some things coming together like they do are ridiculous. I've seen it so many times in my life. If you look at DNA, or how a cell works, and try to explain it by saying it happened by chance with no mind behind it, that just doesn't make sense to me. Some of you do believe in a creator or designer of the universe. I encourage you to research and explore and you'll find that the creator gave us the Bible, and then Jesus Christ. There are no contradictions. Christianity, unlike other religions, encourages you to challenge it, test it, make sure it's truth.
All I can do is tell you to do that and hope that you'll see God as I have seen Him. Don't go into it expecting not to see anything, because then anything you see you'll ignore because you don't want to hear it. A lot of us don't want to believe in a God because then we're accountable to Him, which means we're not all that. If you search, honestly search, you'll find that there is a God, and He wants a relationship with you. I'm not trying to sound cheesy, but it's the truth. There is a heaven and hell and it's one or the other for eternity.
We are created in His image
You don't think it's even slightly big-headed for humans to think they've been created in the image of a omniscient, omnipotent, everlasting, all-powerful mythical being?
I am convinced of it because of how I have seen God everywhere, in His creation, in my life, in so many aspects.
You see God everywhere because that is what you want to see.
We made up the word coincidence, which is a silly thing because the chances of some things coming together like they do are ridiculous.
Like the probability of a certain number sequence coming up in the lottery? Just because something is unlikely, doesn't mean that if it does happen, some intelligence must have made it happen.
If you look at … how a cell works, and try to explain it by saying it happened by chance with no mind behind it, that just doesn't make sense to me.
You don't see any contradiction in thinking that an omniscient, omnipotent, everlasting being can "just exist", but that life couldn't have come about through chance meetings of the right elements at the right time?
There is a heaven and hell and it's one or the other for eternity.
It actually is possible for Noah to have gotten all the animals onto the arc. One possiblility is that the tectonic plates were not moved over billions of years, but during the flood. This makes sense since water came up from the ground. If the tectonic plates were together then, then the animals could easily have been found. It is also stated that God called the animals to Noah. That seems possible since God did it.
With all due respect, this is more than likely not what happened. To have all of the tectonic plates seperate from each other in one event would be well documented both in language and in nature's preservers, such as trees, soil samples (from the waterbed as well), ice, etc. The most recent drastic event that could have triggered this happened roughly 75,000 years ago according to scientists' theories on mega-volcanos.
The stories of the bible are to be interpreted the same way as Jesus' teachings which are recorded in the NT, or at least that's how it should be interpreted IMO.
You and I have several genes in our DNA that aren't shown in our appearance. You could have a gene for blue eyes, but actually have brown eyes. Genes are obviously way more complicated than that, but my point is that Adam and Eve had the genes in them. Through the incest that took place, certain attributes were exaggerated, such as dark skin or small eyes, and that is how we get the many "races" today. All the genes were there from the beginning, it depends on what genes are turned on, or are dominant, and that's how the outward appearance of people comes out.
Partially true, but also location plays a signifcant role in how humans look and interact. Why do Japenese look the way they do? Why the subtle transition in appearances from China and Mongolia to the Middle east and Europe? Why don't Chinese have blonde hair if its in their genes?
Humans can know what God expects from us because God told us, through the Bible, and Jesus Christ, who is God. Why would a creator not communicate with what He created? We are created in His image, and I don't see why God wouldn't want to communicate with us and have a relationship. God is very much relational. Humans are very much relational, because we're created by God.
This statement is actually a contradiction to why I do believe in God.
I believe that the human mind is the greatest gift in the known universe, and that it has been wired to evolve into religion. We are wired to receive God, but we can also wire ourselves to know God but not accept God.
I do not believe in a God that would attempt to communicate with us, but rather a God that is silent. I think we would all be frightened and not live the lives we live today if we had a controlling God. A good example of this is the exceptional novel The Chosen by Chaim Potok (sp?). We are closer to a God that is far from us than a God that is close to us. It is unconditional love that God seeks.
Everyone sees God in a different way, whether they believe in one or not. Most religions share the same function, and that's purpose. Purpose can still be found within ourselves and what we see everyday according to our beliefs on reality.
It is also stated that God called the animals to Noah. That seems possible since God did it.
You see, you can't argue with this. They always, always, always, 100% of the time have an answer for everything. "It's because he's God!"
"How Conveeenient."
The Bible has a lot of stories that are not only told in the Bible, but in other cultures, such as the flood. The flood story varies in many ways, but the difference with the Bible is that it is God-breathed. Obviously if you don't believe in God then this doesn't mean a thing, but that is why it is absolute truth. That is obviously hard to test if you doubt the validity of the Bible. One aspect is that the Bible actually has some much more believable, honest aspects of its stories. For example, sticking with the flood story, many cultures' stories end up with Noah (or whatever they call him) being granted immortality. The Bible talked about Noah's sin after, which is a much more realistic and truthful view.
It actually is possible for Noah to have gotten all the animals onto the arc. One possiblility is that the tectonic plates were not moved over billions of years, but during the flood. This makes sense since water came up from the ground. If the tectonic plates were together then, then the animals could easily have been found. It is also stated that God called the animals to Noah. That seems possible since God did it.
There are very likely many events who really occured, but you might know the "phone game" where you deliver a message from person to person. Even if you don't intend to, the message gets changed eventually, some exagerate, some leave out parts and other make things up.
At times at which only very few could read/write, such stories could change dramaticly during the time, so it's mostly impossible to diverse fact from fiction.
But before I write further, do you believe in creatonism? Because if you do, a discussion is impossible (example: timespan of mankind is far to small for huge changes in plate tectonics).
Humans can know what God expects from us because God told us, through the Bible, and Jesus Christ, who is God. Why would a creator not communicate with what He created? We are created in His image, and I don't see why God wouldn't want to communicate with us and have a relationship. God is very much relational. Humans are very much relational, because we're created by God.
The problem her lies at the point that you act on the assumption that cristianity is the one religion, more than half the planet would disagree with you....
How could god, as described in the bible, want to let there be any doubt about his existance?
Why exist countries were cristianity is nearly non-existant, are this all bad people who deserve to burn in hell forever?
What's about all the other religions, should all this people go to hell as well?
I doubt anything I say will convince any of you that there is a God, or that the Bible is the word of God that is absolutely true with no faults. I am convinced of it because of how I have seen God everywhere, in His creation, in my life, in so many aspects. We made up the word coincidence, which is a silly thing because the chances of some things coming together like they do are ridiculous. I've seen it so many times in my life.
As I said, I do believe in some sort of god, you just have to look at nature (of which we are part of) and wonderful things like love.
However I'm 100% sure that god differs from what's written in the bible/koran.
The chance that there's an intelligent lifeform in the universe who uses a nickname "Homestar06" to write today about religion is about 1:infinity.
But does this mean, the "god" is the one described in the bible?
If you look at DNA, or how a cell works, and try to explain it by saying it happened by chance with no mind behind it, that just doesn't make sense to me. Some of you do believe in a creator or designer of the universe. I encourage you to research and explore and you'll find that the creator gave us the Bible, and then Jesus Christ. There are no contradictions. Christianity, unlike other religions, encourages you to challenge it, test it, make sure it's truth.
A big part of religion is about its interpretation. I bet there are some muslims who wrote something pretty identical, just replace Bible with Kora, Jusus with Allah etc. While other muslims use their religion as a political instrument (like the crusades).
My definition of god is not a designer of the universe, it's the connection between chemistry and life, the "thing" that made things grow, feel and think.
All I can do is tell you to do that and hope that you'll see God as I have seen Him. Don't go into it expecting not to see anything, because then anything you see you'll ignore because you don't want to hear it. A lot of us don't want to believe in a God because then we're accountable to Him, which means we're not all that. If you search, honestly search, you'll find that there is a God, and He wants a relationship with you. I'm not trying to sound cheesy, but it's the truth.
I think you're right in some points, but as stated before, I see no (unique) link to the bible.
And I hope you dont focus only on "your" religion. What ever gave us our intelligence wanted us to challenge our existance, so do the same with the bible.
There is a heaven and hell and it's one or the other for eternity.
This is where my problems with religion like cristianity starts, it lacks in tolerance, it preaches things which leed to death (see aids in africa), it declares different people as sick (see gays) etc.
Eventhough I'm neither african or gay this doesn't sound to me as beeing from a kindhearted god or one of its true servants...
To say Christianity lacks in tolerance is an absolutely true statement. You have to understand the context first. God is the omniscient, omnipotent, all powerful creator of everything. (according to the Bible). God is a perfect, holy God. If He created humans to worship Him, (which He did according to the Bible), then why would He let just anyone be in heaven with Him? There would be no point if we were robots who had no choice in worshiping God. That's the beauty of this discussion. We all have free will to accept God and worship Him, or deny Him and do nothing. The other beautiful (and yes, truly beautiful) thing is that sinners, people who are imperfect (all of us) actually can get to heaven. God made a way for us. My point is that He didn't make robots to worship Him, that's pointless. If any of you have children, it's much more meaningful when your kids obey you because they have the choice not to. It wouldn't mean anything if they didn't have a choice. I think this is a hard thing to grasp (not confusing or "above" anyone) when you don't actually believe in God and the Bible. Not that I'm any smarter than anyone, I'm probably the least intelligent of anyone in this forum. I'm just saying that people who don't believe in God have a hard time accepting that there would be a Hell and God would allow people to go to Hell. It's not because He doesn't want us in heaven, it's because we choose to deny God and we're imperfect and aren't fit to be in His presence.
One quick thing about evolution vs creation. The probabilities that have been calculated, by evolutionists, are far far beyond the impossibility threshold. The impossibility threshold, to my knowledge, is 1 in 1*10^50. The chances calculated for the smallest simplest organizm to evolve and form is 1 in 1*10^340 million. The chance for life to evolve as it has now is way smaller. That one is 1 in 1*10^2 Trillion. 1 in 1*10^50 is considered scientifically impossible.
Think about how many specific details have to come together for us to even live and breathe. The earth has to be tilted at 23 degrees. The earth has to be the distance it is away from the sun. Any closer and we'd burn up, and further and we'd freeze. If the earth was spinning at a different speed it wouldn't work. The moon and the tides it causes are essential for life. That stuff is just to do with earth. Then think about the atmosphere, the gases and the environment. Then our bodies, how they are made up. The DNA. There are a lot of things that are irreducibly complex. I won't go into that, it seems like a lot of people agree that there is a God. sorry for that rant, that stuff just amazes me.
What exactly do you mean when you say Christianity preaches things that lead to death like AIDS and declaring people sick? If you mean it doesn't make sense for a God to make bad things, then you're right. The only reason those came about is because we turned from God and sinned. Evil entered the world and you get AIDS and diseases.
There are countries where Christianity is nearly non-existant because people have chosen not to follow God and Christ. It all started in the middle east, but almost all of that is muslim.
Honestly, I know very very little about plate tectonics. I don't know how things worked. Creationism doesn't always mean a young earth though. Some creationists believe there could have been lots of time between the days that God created things. There wasn't a sun for some of those days so that 24 hour period, no one really knows.
The historical facts in the Bible are often duplicated in other history books. I can't explain every one obviously, but there is lots of evidence that the Bible is valid. Check out the book "Evidence that demands a verdict" by Josh McDowell. The author set out to prove that the Bible wasn't valid and it wasn't trustworthy and he came out with a different conclusion than he expected. It goes through the old testament and new testament and explains how they are in fact trustworthy sources.
Like I said before, I doubt anyone is going to change their mind by the end of this discussion. Look deeper. If you believe there is a god but not the god described in the Bible or the Koran, then find out who that God is. If you believe there is a god but that he's not a personal God at all, then find out who that god is. Why isn't he personal? Could he be? Ask questions. I am asking questions to, validating that what I believe is true, or maybe it isn't. Currently I have found nothing contradictory or not trustworthy about the Bible and the fact that there is a God is apparent to me as it is to some of you. If there is a contradiction or if it's not true, I certainly want to know. And if there are no contradictions to the Bible and it is in fact true, then I would think y'all (I'm in the south right now, I can say that) would want to know too. Sorry if this was long and if I rambled needlessly a bit.
In John, why does Jesus ressurrect the old Egyptian sun-god Lazarus?
Just a friendly recommendation.
Really? If you do believe in God and there is none, it won't hurt you? Not at all? Financially? In terms of time? Life enjoyment (if you haven't tried sex for pleasure, trust me, you're being hurt).
Do you realize that this becomes a non-issue? Because if you believe in a God, and there is none, you will probably realize this until after you die, (if at all! or maybe you don't even have time to realize it, because, without a God, under this scenario there may not be an afterlife) so you don't really lose anything. When it's all said and done and you have lived, it doesn't really matter anymore. You may not even exist to realize it and evaluate those choices. See the irony? So it's good to believe.
He's absolutely right. If all we're worried about is the consolations, we're wrong. It's not so we get to heaven, or so we feel better. It's that we're worshiping the creator of the universe and discovering more and more each day who He is. It's awesome and humbling and brings so much joy and excitement. Don't believe so you can get to heaven, if you are, I shall suspect that you don't understand.
So, for me, believing there is a God is not only a matter of faith, and salvation of my soul... it actually makes me feel good and happy to believe there is higher being, a creator.
The probabilities that have been calculated, by evolutionists, are far far beyond the impossibility threshold. The impossibility threshold, to my knowledge, is 1 in 1*10^50. The chances calculated for the smallest simplest organizm to evolve and form is 1 in 1*10^340 million. The chance for life to evolve as it has now is way smaller. That one is 1 in 1*10^2 Trillion. 1 in 1*10^50 is considered scientifically impossible.
Sorry, but you just don't understand probability. There is no "impossibility threshold". If something's impossible, it has a probability of exactly 0. Not nearly zero, exactly zero.
As an example, let's say I get 1000 balls, and number them from 1 to 1000. Now, if I am to choose 26 of those balls at random, the probability of any one sequence of numbers being chosen is 1 in 1.787 * 10^51, i.e., below your so-called "impossibility threshold". By your reasoning, it would be impossible to select 26 balls, because the sequence of numbers that would occur would have had a probability below the "impossibility threshold" before the draw was made. Hopefully it is obvious to you that it is in fact rather trivial to pick 26 balls from 1000.
May I suggest everyone ignore MarcUK's religion-related posts.
Yes, because its far too stressful for a Christian to wonder why Jesus is going around resurrecting the pagan gods they are told to despise. So instead of wondering why and finding out - which could lead you to a place of better understanding of the Jesus story- its better to be ignorant and pretend that Jesus didn't resurrect a certain sun-diety - "El-Osiris"
Yet it is there in "Black and White" in the gospel of John. Its is there for a "definate reason" and unless you ask yourself and find out why Jesus is going around resurrecting Pagan Gods to "prove a point" , you will forever have to be completely ignorant about this story in the Bible - which begs the question "how many other stories are you chosing to ignorant of in the Bible, because the truth in these stories, conflicts with your faith, beliefs and fantasies?
And if you "willfully chose" to be "ignorant" about the meaning of the stories in the Bible, how can you call yourselves Christians with any kind of "integrity"?
Jesus raises a pagan God. If you believe in Jesus, you have to accept that this is what he did because the Bible says so. Why did he do it? He could have raised millions of people to make thier families happy, impress the pagans, prove his divinity - Yet he doesn't do that, instead he raises the pagan God El-Osiris.- There is a more profound reason than wanting to impress people with sleight-of-hand magic tricks. If you truly believe in the truth of Jesus - Find out what it is.
If you don't accept that, then you dont believe in Jesus or the divine truth of the Gospels. The Jesus you do believe in is false, and the Gospels are lies. False liars are Cunts.
Obviously it has to be 0 to really be impossible. You misunderstood my point. If the chance of something happening is less than 1 in 1*10^50 than scientists consider it impossible.
Go back to the time of Adam & Eve (if you believe in that). At that moment in time, what was the probability of you and me having this discussion right here, right now, via this medium? Way, way, way, way, way lower than 1 in 10^60 - and yet - here we are - it's happening! Incredible huh?
You can believe that there is an intelligence behind the creation of the cell, but even if you do believe that, you're still left with some mind-f**king questions like "where did that intelligence come from?".
Obviously it has to be 0 to really be impossible. You misunderstood my point. If the chance of something happening is less than 1 in 1*10^50 than scientists consider it impossible. I've heard that number vary a bit, from 1*10^40 to 1*10^60. If you noticed, the probability calculated by evolutionists of even the most primative cell evolving are way way way beyond that. Not even close. Darwin didn't know nearly as much as we do now. Now that we know what we do, we see that the chances of things really evolving like darwin thought they might have are way way too small. It's a ridiculous thing to believe in with the knowledge we have today. I don't know about you, but I think it takes more faith to believe in 1 in 1*10^2,000,000,000,000 than to believe in an intelligent designer of the universe. Take a look at that number, it's not 2 trillion. It's 1 with 2 trillion zeroes. That's crazy. A number given by evolutionists, not creationists.
For a start, no scientist ever calculated the odds to be 1 with 2 trillion trailing zeroes. That is a lie, and you might wonder why the source of this information wants you to believe in lies, and how he/she benefits from it.
Now, who is this Intelligent Designer you speak humbly of?
False liars are Cunts.
And that's the reason.
And that's the reason.
So you've found out the reason Jesus raised El-Osiris or are you just humouring me (with your finger in the ears)
Why, also, does god need people to worship him? If he alone indeed created the entire world, why was he not satisfied? What insecurities has he got? Some that are similar to those that people have? Then he is just like the rest of us.
If he resurrects a pagan god, then there are other gods, and god is being rather selfish in demanding that humans worship only him.
Just got back from watch Stone's movie World Trade Center. One of the guys in it saw Jesus coming to him... why then did Jesus not choose to visit everyone before the planes hit the building and protect them from the harm?
Back to the Ark: what volume of space would be required for all them beasts, bugs and other critters? How were all of the different species of insects kept? Definitely not all in one open space. If only two of each were on the ark, and some critters have very short lifespans (a housefly lives for 20 days or so), how many species would have survived the trip? What about those animals which live in certain climates but cannot survive in others? What about the plants? God forgot the plants that would have died too.
If it only took him 6 days to create the earth (and he needed a day of rest after that strenuous effort), why did it take him so long to destroy life on it? He could have likely spent just another six days dismantling things... sounds like a logical step for an omniscient being.
How much food would have been necessary to support al of this wildlife for so long? What about diseases and infections? Would they have not run rampant on the ark? It says 220 days. I just can't imagine how this would work. There was no pizza delivery in those days.
There is just too much here for it to be real.
And that's the reason.
Whilst I agree that MarkUK did himself no favours by using such derogatory profanity, that is no good reason to ignore the rest of his valid points.
The vast majority of Christians (and other faiths too, presumably, but I've not had religion-related discussions with them) do tend to take the bits of the Bible that they like at face value, but other more "difficult" parts have to be "interpreted" in order to be "understood" correctly. How convenient.
Back to the Ark
People who think that a guy called Noah actually saved all life on earth (i.e. that had it not been for Noah (helped a bit by God), then no land-borne life would be here now) are deluded. They have no concept of the vast numbers of different species alive in the world today.
What the Noah story does tell us, as it is corroborated (as far as I know) in all other major religions, is that there was a major flood around the time that those scriptures were written. Maybe there was even a guy called Noah who thought that he was "saving" all life on earth by building a big boat and collecting up pairs of animals. But one man collecting up all life on earth, putting them in a sail-able boat and keeping them alive for 150 days - this is impossible (unless, of course, God "bent" the laws of physics to allow Noah to complete his task).
Oh, and while we're at it, the story of Noah does contain a good contradiction: God is meant to be all-loving, but he "got angry" with all life on earth and decided to murder it with a great flood? Doesn't sound very loving to me.