Maybe. I am not at all sure that any of those clamoring for the xMac would actually buy it. Remember, there is no huge selection of video cards, and virtually no consumer ever puts a second HD in their Dell.
Well, we are buying older Mac towers on eBay now. We would like performance of the new iMacs, but already have, in my case, a 22 inch widescreen, 5 ms LCD display that is almost brand new. So we settle for two or three year old performance for now and are satisfied with the money we save. Regarding graphics card, the older PowerMac seem fine, I bought a ATE 9800, 256 MB for my G5, and the PCIe cards will get straightened out by the time I'm ready to buy.
Quote:
Explain that logic to me. An $1800 no-display machine is going to sell compared to a $1300 machine WITH display?
I don't believe those prices. We hear everything from $999 to $1999 for a mini tower, but let's be realistic. It will always cost just a little more for a mini tower than an iMac because of the added mechanical hardware, like expansion slots. In the end, the iMac will be the better buy for those who need a newer display, and the mini tower a better buy for those who do not want a new display.
Quote:
Mod note: some forums would declare this type of thread to be "beating a dead horse" and lock it. I think that is bullshit. If people want to discuss, it can go on forever.
"I'm getting a Mac." "Which one?" "A Mac." "A MacBook? iMac?" "No, just a regular Mac. Some guy on an internet message board thought it up."
What a stupid idea for so many reasons. I'm really looking forward to a company coming along that actually takes their product lineup suggestions from high schoolers.
I think it's safe to say Apple has not been interested in a midrange tower and must not feel there is much profit in offering such a machine. Because they don't offer it.
Keep your faith in Apple and you will stay happier. I sense Apple may be stonewalling the issue to keep iMac sales as high as possible, or they are in the process of designing a mini tower now, and waiting for the right time to spring it on us. I sure hope it is the latter. I would gladly trade reading this thread for the chance to buy a new mid range tower.
I see no reason Apple cannot sell a mini tower for $999 with the specifications of the $1199 iMac. They would be about equal value. The tower would go on up from there, as it has more opportunities for options.
Would a mini tower hurt iMac sales? A little, which may be why we don't see a mini tower. Yet Apple could adjust the performance and price of the mini tower a little bit, to keep the impact at a minimum.
I think the point I was trying to make is that Apple's iMac competes in terms of price and features against most PC maker's non-AIO solutions and therefore there may be no impetus for Apple to make one as consumers are buying plenty of iMacs and their researchers may feel that because the iMac compares so favorably to these other computers there is not enough of a market to justify it's introduction.
I respect your point of view. The logic may work for folks who do not have a very good display yet, or want the minimum clutter on their desk. Those of us with excellent monitors are stuck. What do I do with my Viewsonic 22 inch widescreen LCD monitor, which is like new. Sell it on eBay? It works fine with my eBay Power Macintosh however. New hardware will have to wait. When my current stuff is too out of date a few years from now, there will be today's Mac Pro on eBay selling for $1299.
I will not switch to a PC. However, I can be as stubborn as Apple. If Apple doesn't want my business, there are plenty on eBay that are glad to sell to me. I'm not complicated. I know what I want and will buy from those who sell it. Right now that happens to be eBay, not Apple.
the iMac is really this.. the iMac really is that...
Apple tried before with the Cube and failed (it was pulled).
The situation is different now. It's not 2000/1 for Apple now.
They have the cool they have their Tiger they have 60M iPod owners. They have serious notebook market share. And they have the latest Intel chips - along with large dollop of Intel help (Not to mention they have Windows!)
They can afford to try again. Simple.
hmm... 1M Mac notebook owners a quarter how much of a halo effect from these when they want to buy their home box/storage base station Mac.. ~10-20+%..?
Alternatives to leech more Market share.
(1) Blam! Cube Mark II
(2) Alternative Mac Pro (not so pro) $1500
Marketing magic.. Hmm... lets say $150 rebates tickets for those that buy MB/MBP's...
the iMac is really this.. the iMac really is that...
Apple tried before with the Cube and failed (it was pulled).
The situation is different now. It's not 2000/1 for Apple now.
The Cube failed because it was more expensive than the PowerMac yet less practical. Since then, the pro machines have gone up $700 in price (while prices on everything else are falling like a rock) and Apple thinks everyone not running Mathematica would be perfectly happy with an all-in-one or are sheepish enough to buy what Apple tells them to.
I respect your point of view. The logic may work for folks who do not have a very good display yet, or want the minimum clutter on their desk. Those of us with excellent monitors are stuck. What do I do with my Viewsonic 22 inch widescreen LCD monitor, which is like new. Sell it on eBay? It works fine with my eBay Power Macintosh however. New hardware will have to wait. When my current stuff is too out of date a few years from now, there will be today's Mac Pro on eBay selling for $1299.
I will not switch to a PC. However, I can be as stubborn as Apple. If Apple doesn't want my business, there are plenty on eBay that are glad to sell to me. I'm not complicated. I know what I want and will buy from those who sell it. Right now that happens to be eBay, not Apple.
You know, I think Apple trained us a little too well against group think.
As for clutter, two 5.25" optical drives, an external hard drive, a hub, a card reader, and two 5.25" optical drives seems pretty cluttered to me. With a conroe Mac Pro, most of that would fit nicely under my desk.
Maybe I'm missing something. Repeatedly I hear an xMac will upset Apple's pricing structure??
What's so expensive about adding PCI slots? With the mini, replace the more expensive laptop hard drive, put in a cheaper larger drive and add a couple of PCI slots. A virtual wash in cost. How much more expensive is a Conroe cpu than Yonah? Bump the price - offer both the mini and xMac, see which one makes the most profit.
Maybe I'm missing something. Repeatedly I hear an xMac will upset Apple's pricing structure??
What's so expensive about...
It should read, such a Mac could upset Apples own 'artificial' pricing structure. The potential is Mac Pro looks too highly priced and even not necessary for certain Pro applications, The iMac looks like what's the point i've already got a screen etc.
Maybe I'm missing something. Repeatedly I hear an xMac will upset Apple's pricing structure??
What's so expensive about adding PCI slots? With the mini, replace the more expensive laptop hard drive, put in a cheaper larger drive and add a couple of PCI slots. A virtual wash in cost. How much more expensive is a Conroe cpu than Yonah? Bump the price - offer both the mini and xMac, see which one makes the most profit.
Thanks for the information. Modified my original statement to:
What's so expensive about adding PCI slots? With the mini, replace the more expensive laptop hard drive, put in a cheaper larger drive and add a couple of PCI slots. A virtual wash in cost. How much cheaper is a Conroe cpu than Yonah? Bump the price and make higher margins - offer both the mini and xMac, see which one makes the most profit.
Thanks for the information. Modified my original statement to:
What's so expensive about adding PCI slots? With the mini, replace the more expensive laptop hard drive, put in a cheaper larger drive and add a couple of PCI slots. A virtual wash in cost. How much cheaper is a Conroe cpu than Yonah? Bump the price and make higher margins - offer both the mini and xMac, see which one makes the most profit.
rickag, Apple could easily add PCI slots to the Mac mini. It would have to be twice as high, but it would be possible. The thing you're missing is: they don't want to.
They don't want it to be expansible beyond the point it currently is.
If Apple wanted to have a low-cost customizable computer, they'd have one.
If Apple wanted to have a low-cost customizable computer, they'd have one.
Well, duh! I believe the main point of this discussion is whether or not Apple's decision not to have a low-cost mini-tower is a good one. Every so often someone pipes up suggesting that the proposed machines can't be done with Apple's usual margins, but this notion is easily dismissed.
I believe the main point of this discussion is whether or not Apple's decision not to have a low-cost mini-tower is a good one. Every so often someone pipes up suggesting that the proposed machines can't be done with Apple's usual margins . . .
I'll add, some say there is insufficient market for the proposed machines, or the proposed Macs would simply replace sales of other profitable Macs, making it unnecessary in the product line up.
$1200+ Cube II is possible. $700 tower not so much. You're converting a $1000-2000 (17"-24") sale to a $700 sale and the possibility of a monitor sale.
Lets see...I can spend:
$699 for a ACD 20" OR $339 for a Dell 2007 WFP (widescreen 20")
$999 for a ACD 23" OR $679 for a Dell 2407 WFP (widescreen 24") OR $1279 for a Dell 3007WFP (widescreen 30").
I don't think that monitor sale is anything close to a sure bet. Even figuring you want to spend another $150 on the eventual iSight 2.0 w/remote.
So the worst case is that you just converted a $2000 x 0.28 or $560 profit into a $700 x 0.25 or $196 profit. Same margins, vastly different revenue stream.
Use $1200 as the average ($336 profit) and you need to sell 1.7 xMacs for every iMac sale cannibalized just to break even (less profit on any monitor sales). If there were a $700 xMac you can pretty much be assured that iMac sales would tank...
AND you STILL have to show that Dell, HP and Gateway are making 16% margins on their $599 base Core 2 Duo boxes to get 28% at $699 ($195 profit of which $100 is pure profit over $599 leaves $95 that needs to be made by the $599 models margin wise...). I suspect that Gateway isn't making $16% on their base DX420 (lowsest end desktop) as their gross margins are in the 7-9% range. Either that or their professional sales like sucked much much worse than believable.
So...850K desktop sales (1.7x500K for simplicity) just to break even and you wonder why this isn't the no-brainer you guys keep saying it is? That's without figuring that some Mac Pro sales get cannibalized too and assuming that Apple can get better margins than Dell, HP and Gateway in that same segment.
Vinea
PS I'm guessin it aint $700 tower customers that will buy ACDs but upper end buyers in the $1200+ price point.
Comments
Maybe. I am not at all sure that any of those clamoring for the xMac would actually buy it. Remember, there is no huge selection of video cards, and virtually no consumer ever puts a second HD in their Dell.
Well, we are buying older Mac towers on eBay now. We would like performance of the new iMacs, but already have, in my case, a 22 inch widescreen, 5 ms LCD display that is almost brand new. So we settle for two or three year old performance for now and are satisfied with the money we save. Regarding graphics card, the older PowerMac seem fine, I bought a ATE 9800, 256 MB for my G5, and the PCIe cards will get straightened out by the time I'm ready to buy.
Explain that logic to me. An $1800 no-display machine is going to sell compared to a $1300 machine WITH display?
I don't believe those prices. We hear everything from $999 to $1999 for a mini tower, but let's be realistic. It will always cost just a little more for a mini tower than an iMac because of the added mechanical hardware, like expansion slots. In the end, the iMac will be the better buy for those who need a newer display, and the mini tower a better buy for those who do not want a new display.
Mod note: some forums would declare this type of thread to be "beating a dead horse" and lock it. I think that is bullshit. If people want to discuss, it can go on forever.
What a stupid idea for so many reasons. I'm really looking forward to a company coming along that actually takes their product lineup suggestions from high schoolers.
I think it's safe to say Apple has not been interested in a midrange tower and must not feel there is much profit in offering such a machine. Because they don't offer it.
Keep your faith in Apple and you will stay happier.
I see no reason Apple cannot sell a mini tower for $999 with the specifications of the $1199 iMac. They would be about equal value. The tower would go on up from there, as it has more opportunities for options.
Would a mini tower hurt iMac sales? A little, which may be why we don't see a mini tower. Yet Apple could adjust the performance and price of the mini tower a little bit, to keep the impact at a minimum.
I think the point I was trying to make is that Apple's iMac competes in terms of price and features against most PC maker's non-AIO solutions and therefore there may be no impetus for Apple to make one as consumers are buying plenty of iMacs and their researchers may feel that because the iMac compares so favorably to these other computers there is not enough of a market to justify it's introduction.
I respect your point of view. The logic may work for folks who do not have a very good display yet, or want the minimum clutter on their desk. Those of us with excellent monitors are stuck. What do I do with my Viewsonic 22 inch widescreen LCD monitor, which is like new. Sell it on eBay? It works fine with my eBay Power Macintosh however. New hardware will have to wait. When my current stuff is too out of date a few years from now, there will be today's Mac Pro on eBay selling for $1299.
I will not switch to a PC. However, I can be as stubborn as Apple. If Apple doesn't want my business, there are plenty on eBay that are glad to sell to me. I'm not complicated. I know what I want and will buy from those who sell it. Right now that happens to be eBay, not Apple.
If Apple doesn't want my business, there are plenty on eBay that are glad to sell to me.
That's exactly the way it goes for me right now.
Already looking for a dual core 2.3GHz G5!
the iMac is really this.. the iMac really is that...
Apple tried before with the Cube and failed (it was pulled).
The situation is different now. It's not 2000/1 for Apple now.
They have the cool they have their Tiger they have 60M iPod owners. They have serious notebook market share. And they have the latest Intel chips - along with large dollop of Intel help (Not to mention they have Windows!)
They can afford to try again. Simple.
hmm... 1M Mac notebook owners a quarter how much of a halo effect from these when they want to buy their home box/storage base station Mac.. ~10-20+%..?
Alternatives to leech more Market share.
(1) Blam! Cube Mark II
(2) Alternative Mac Pro (not so pro) $1500
Marketing magic.. Hmm... lets say $150 rebates tickets for those that buy MB/MBP's...
Apple should do this.. Apple can't do that.
the iMac is really this.. the iMac really is that...
Apple tried before with the Cube and failed (it was pulled).
The situation is different now. It's not 2000/1 for Apple now.
The Cube failed because it was more expensive than the PowerMac yet less practical. Since then, the pro machines have gone up $700 in price (while prices on everything else are falling like a rock) and Apple thinks everyone not running Mathematica would be perfectly happy with an all-in-one or are sheepish enough to buy what Apple tells them to.
I respect your point of view. The logic may work for folks who do not have a very good display yet, or want the minimum clutter on their desk. Those of us with excellent monitors are stuck. What do I do with my Viewsonic 22 inch widescreen LCD monitor, which is like new. Sell it on eBay? It works fine with my eBay Power Macintosh however. New hardware will have to wait. When my current stuff is too out of date a few years from now, there will be today's Mac Pro on eBay selling for $1299.
I will not switch to a PC. However, I can be as stubborn as Apple. If Apple doesn't want my business, there are plenty on eBay that are glad to sell to me. I'm not complicated. I know what I want and will buy from those who sell it. Right now that happens to be eBay, not Apple.
You know, I think Apple trained us a little too well against group think.
As for clutter, two 5.25" optical drives, an external hard drive, a hub, a card reader, and two 5.25" optical drives seems pretty cluttered to me. With a conroe Mac Pro, most of that would fit nicely under my desk.
What's so expensive about adding PCI slots? With the mini, replace the more expensive laptop hard drive, put in a cheaper larger drive and add a couple of PCI slots. A virtual wash in cost. How much more expensive is a Conroe cpu than Yonah? Bump the price - offer both the mini and xMac, see which one makes the most profit.
If it is so plain then why isn't Apple doing it? Do you believe Apple is that ignorant? Seriously?
More like in they're own little version of reality.
Maybe I'm missing something. Repeatedly I hear an xMac will upset Apple's pricing structure??
What's so expensive about...
It should read, such a Mac could upset Apples own 'artificial' pricing structure. The potential is Mac Pro looks too highly priced and even not necessary for certain Pro applications, The iMac looks like what's the point i've already got a screen etc.
How much more expensive is a Conroe cpu than Yonah?
It's cheaper.
Dismissed.
Maybe I'm missing something. Repeatedly I hear an xMac will upset Apple's pricing structure??
What's so expensive about adding PCI slots? With the mini, replace the more expensive laptop hard drive, put in a cheaper larger drive and add a couple of PCI slots. A virtual wash in cost. How much more expensive is a Conroe cpu than Yonah? Bump the price - offer both the mini and xMac, see which one makes the most profit.
Core 2-Conre/Allendale
X6800 (2.93)- $999
E6700 (2.67)- $530
E6600 (2.4)- $316
E6400 (2.13)- $224
E6300 (1.83)- $183
Core 2-Merom (same price points as Yonah)
T7600 (2.33) - $637
T7400 (2.13) - $423
T7200 (2.0) - $294
T5600 (1.83) - $241
T5500 (1.66) - $209
Thanks for the information. Modified my original statement to:
What's so expensive about adding PCI slots? With the mini, replace the more expensive laptop hard drive, put in a cheaper larger drive and add a couple of PCI slots. A virtual wash in cost. How much cheaper is a Conroe cpu than Yonah? Bump the price and make higher margins - offer both the mini and xMac, see which one makes the most profit.
Chucker & BenRoethig
Thanks for the information. Modified my original statement to:
What's so expensive about adding PCI slots? With the mini, replace the more expensive laptop hard drive, put in a cheaper larger drive and add a couple of PCI slots. A virtual wash in cost. How much cheaper is a Conroe cpu than Yonah? Bump the price and make higher margins - offer both the mini and xMac, see which one makes the most profit.
rickag, Apple could easily add PCI slots to the Mac mini. It would have to be twice as high, but it would be possible. The thing you're missing is: they don't want to.
They don't want it to be expansible beyond the point it currently is.
If Apple wanted to have a low-cost customizable computer, they'd have one.
If Apple wanted to have a low-cost customizable computer, they'd have one.
Well, duh! I believe the main point of this discussion is whether or not Apple's decision not to have a low-cost mini-tower is a good one. Every so often someone pipes up suggesting that the proposed machines can't be done with Apple's usual margins, but this notion is easily dismissed.
I believe the main point of this discussion is whether or not Apple's decision not to have a low-cost mini-tower is a good one. Every so often someone pipes up suggesting that the proposed machines can't be done with Apple's usual margins . . .
I'll add, some say there is insufficient market for the proposed machines, or the proposed Macs would simply replace sales of other profitable Macs, making it unnecessary in the product line up.
PCs 94%
Looks like a of marker space to me. What I see is fear. A reluctance to try anything else.
Macs: 6%
PCs 94%
Looks like a of marker space to me. What I see is fear. A reluctance to try anything else.
I guess you could call it a fear of sorts. It's a Jobsian fear of being normal..can't possibly do that, no!.
Anything but that. Cube Mark II anybody.
Lets see...I can spend:
$699 for a ACD 20" OR $339 for a Dell 2007 WFP (widescreen 20")
$999 for a ACD 23" OR $679 for a Dell 2407 WFP (widescreen 24") OR $1279 for a Dell 3007WFP (widescreen 30").
I don't think that monitor sale is anything close to a sure bet. Even figuring you want to spend another $150 on the eventual iSight 2.0 w/remote.
So the worst case is that you just converted a $2000 x 0.28 or $560 profit into a $700 x 0.25 or $196 profit. Same margins, vastly different revenue stream.
Use $1200 as the average ($336 profit) and you need to sell 1.7 xMacs for every iMac sale cannibalized just to break even (less profit on any monitor sales). If there were a $700 xMac you can pretty much be assured that iMac sales would tank...
AND you STILL have to show that Dell, HP and Gateway are making 16% margins on their $599 base Core 2 Duo boxes to get 28% at $699 ($195 profit of which $100 is pure profit over $599 leaves $95 that needs to be made by the $599 models margin wise...). I suspect that Gateway isn't making $16% on their base DX420 (lowsest end desktop) as their gross margins are in the 7-9% range. Either that or their professional sales like sucked much much worse than believable.
So...850K desktop sales (1.7x500K for simplicity) just to break even and you wonder why this isn't the no-brainer you guys keep saying it is? That's without figuring that some Mac Pro sales get cannibalized too and assuming that Apple can get better margins than Dell, HP and Gateway in that same segment.
Vinea
PS I'm guessin it aint $700 tower customers that will buy ACDs but upper end buyers in the $1200+ price point.