A market that's disappearing, as has been pointed out numerous times.
The 50% number for proportion of the market that are desktops has been bandied-about, I don't know if that's worldwide or U.S. only. How fast is it shrinking? Care to make a prediction? Is it actually shrinking worldwide? Are unit numbers shrinking or is it just that laptops are growing faster than desktops? At what point should you stop producing desktops altogether? I would think that as the desktop market shrinks, it becomes even more important to offer what people actually want (assuming the disappearance takes at least 3 years).
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Originally Posted by Chucker
Expandability was important in days where PCs didn't even ship with a sound card, let alone a network card. These days, with so many on-board components, not so much.
Like many of the "mini-tower" nay-sayers, you have ignored that it's not just about expandability. The one PCIe slot I suggest is so that more expensive ($799+) configs can have a decent video card whilst the motherboard has integrated graphics for the cheaper options. The "mini-tower" is also (and more significantly) about lowering the cost of entry to the Mac platform and using desktop parts which are faster and/or higher capacity and/or cheaper than their laptop counterparts.
Since you seem to enjoy implying that I don't know what I'm talking about, I'd like to point out that as I was looking back over the thread, I noticed this post of mine, in which I state "I reckon DELL could sell a version of the proposed $999 Apple tower for $799. It's just that they've got a lot of Pentium Ds to shift right now. In 3 - 4 months, I reckon we'll see $799 Conroe towers from DELL." The post was made just under 3 months ago, and was poo-pooed by Vinea at the time. Dell's XPS 410 (1.86 GHz Conroe) without monitor or external amplified speakers is $809. (Was $799 a couple of weeks ago but the price went up)
All Apple has to do is have its Sales Associates mark off the reason a customer didn't buy a computer. I would bet that "it doesn't have 3 or more PCIe slots" or "it doesn't have a second hard drive bay" or "I can't change out the video card" are very near the bottom of the resulting list, if those reasons even appear at all.
Yep.
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Except the gamers, of course. With virtually no games on the Mac, gamers would want to run Windows games. The only ones who would buy a Mac are those who also prefer OS X for non-game computing. Who knows - this market may be larger than Apple thinks, and I am assuming they are sizing it up.
But how many of "the gamers"
1) care to have a machine they can tinker with and mod to the extreme
2) can afford to do such tinkerings, including the latest and greatest graphics cards all the time
3) can, at the same time, not afford to also have a regular computer for actual work?
I'd say not a lot. The "gamers" I know either don't care to have a Mac-type computer at all; i.e. they *don't mind* it when their computer has the occasional BSoD, blown-up power supply unit, non-working this-and-that, because they enjoy tinkering with it enough to fix things (if only temporarily). Or, they have enough money to, secondarily, also have a "serious" computer: one that they can trust to work, and one they can tinker with.
The "serious" computer does *not* need much customizability at all. An iMac will do. Heck, a Mac mini will probably do. And the "tinker" one wouldn't have any brand-name components, because they are more expensive, which rules Apple out anyway; it would have the cheapest, most overclock-able, most bleeding(!)-edge components, which Apple will never offer anyway.
extra hard drives all point to Pro users doing 3-D rendering, capturing, maybe data acquisition.
As has been brought up before: Time Machine?
And, as Apple and others push for people's video libraries as well as audio libraries to be stored on their machines, the capacity required goes up enormously. Laptop HDDs are heavily restricted in this area relative to their desktop counterparts.
The 50% number for proportion of the market that are desktops has been bandied-about, I don't know if that's worldwide or U.S. only. How fast is it shrinking? Care to make a prediction? Is it actually shrinking worldwide?
No, I don't care to make a prediction, but do feel free to look at the statistics from Gartner, IDC and the sorts, and you'll see that, yes, it's a world-wide process.
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Are unit numbers shrinking or is it just that laptops are growing faster than desktops?
Laptops are growing faster.
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I would think that as the desktop market shrinks, it becomes even more important to offer what people actually want (assuming the disappearance takes at least 3 years).
You should take a look at the Mac product line, it's actually pretty close to what people want. Now you might think I'm talking out of my behind, but I do tech support, software development and network administration, so yes, I do know a thing or two about what people "want". And as lundy said, it's not having more PCIe slots than the neighbor's computer does.
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Like many of the "mini-tower" nay-sayers, you have ignored that it's not just about expandability.
It is.
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The one PCIe slot I suggest is so that more expensive ($799+) configs can have a decent video card whilst the motherboard has integrated graphics for the cheaper options.
And how, exactly, is that not "expandability"?
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The "mini-tower" is also (and more significantly) about lowering the cost of entry to the Mac platform and using desktop parts which are faster and/or higher capacity and/or cheaper than their laptop counterparts.
But Apple doesn't *care* to lower the cost of entry, because unlike most hardware suppliers, they want to have a *profit margin*. A low-cost Mac does not *have* that. You *have* to cripple your low-end products (e.g., iPod shuffle, Mac mini) to an extent in order to entice people to buy something *higher*-end, so you make a *higher* profit margin.
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Since you seem to enjoy implying that I don't know what I'm talking about, I'd like to point out that as I was looking back over the thread, I noticed this post of mine, in which I state "I reckon DELL could sell a version of the proposed $999 Apple tower for $799. It's just that they've got a lot of Pentium Ds to shift right now. In 3 - 4 months, I reckon we'll see $799 Conroe towers from DELL." The post was made just under 3 months ago. Dell's XPS 410 (1.86 GHz Conroe) without monitor or external amplified speakers is $809. (Was $799 a couple of weeks ago but the price went up)
MIDI, sound, and TV tuners are almost exclusively Firewire/USB now-a-days.
Particularly for sound cards: you don't want those in a computer because there's two much electrical noise, all the high-end cards are external.
Someone who bought an iMac or a Mac mini isn't going to spend $500 on a fibre channel card.
Wireless USB will have to be standard before it can take off.
That leaves eSATA and 11n, which would be nice upgrades, but will both probably be standard before PCI slots are.
You're wrong especially for sound cards, Firewire/USB is for entry level products, PCI/PCIe for high-end: Digidesign HD series, Apogee Symphony, MOTU PCI 424, RME, etc... for audio I/Os and some DSP, and there are DSP-only card from Universal Audio, TC PowerCore, etc... And while some of these exist in Firewire form (USB is a joke for Pro Audio), bandwith is very limited with Firewire vs. PCIe. The same with SATA drives vs. Firewire drive, as far as I know old ATA66 drives perform better than external FW400 drives.
I'd rather spend $1500 in a computer than can handle a PCIe audio card and a PCIe DSP card and a couple of SATA drives, than to buy an $1500 iMac and have to use less performant and sometimes more expensive Firewire audio interface, DSP processing and storage.
That's one of the reasons why another expandable (but cheaper) Mac would be a nice addition to Apple's line-up: Home studio, small audio/video facilities, additional editing rooms. From what I've seen so far, expect for a couple of PowerMacs (or Mac Pro), most of these facilities are now PC-based or mixed-environments at best. Audio and now Video are Apple's playground, they should pay more attention to the needs of these markets. As Apple's audio/video software is Mac-only (Logic Pro, FCP...) having PCs in these facilities doesn't even add software sales, people will buy ProTools, Cubase or Nuendo that run on Mac and PCs.
PCI/PCIe audio is high-end, USB/Firewire audio is for hobbyists. But because of the power inside the cards, you don't need a powerful computer, you just need PCI slots. I know a lot of recording facilities that still run on G4 PowerMacs with Digidesign ProTools and Mix (old gen) cards.
Now that Conroe is available (and soon Kensfield), I really hope that Apple will make another expandable mid-range Mac in the $999-1999 price range, a couple of hard drive bays, 3 PCIe slots. I don't even care for the form factor.
As has been brought up before, a secondary internal disk drive is not a proper backup solution. When the computer gets stolen / set on fire / whatever, your backup is gone as well, and then what's the use?
Whereas, an external drive can easily be put in a safe, in your in-laws' house, or wherever. That's a backup. Or, once feasible, storing remotely on a web service like S3/JungleDisk or whathaveyou.
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And, as Apple and others push for people's video libraries as well as audio libraries to be stored on their machines, the capacity required goes up enormously. Laptop HDDs are heavily restricted in this area relative to their desktop counterparts.
You're wrong especially for sound cards, Firewire/USB is for entry level products, PCI/PCIe for high-end: Digidesign HD series, Apogee Symphony, MOTU PCI 424, RME, etc... for audio I/Os and some DSP, and there are DSP-only card from Universal Audio, TC PowerCore, etc... And while some of these exist in Firewire form (USB is a joke for Pro Audio), bandwith is very limited with Firewire vs. PCIe. The same with SATA drives vs. Firewire drive, as far as I know old ATA66 drives perform better than external FW400 drives.
I'd rather spend $1500 in a computer than can handle a PCIe audio card and a PCIe DSP card and a couple of SATA drives, than to buy an $1500 iMac and have to use less performant and sometimes more expensive Firewire audio interface, DSP processing and storage.
That's one of the reasons why another expandable (but cheaper) Mac would be a nice addition to Apple's line-up: Home studio, small audio/video facilities, additional editing rooms. From what I've seen so far, expect for a couple of PowerMacs (or Mac Pro), most of these facilities are now PC-based or mixed-environments at best. Audio and now Video are Apple's playground, they should pay more attention to the needs of these markets. As Apple's audio/video software is Mac-only (Logic Pro, FCP...) having PCs in these facilities doesn't even add software sales, people will buy ProTools, Cubase or Nuendo that run on Mac and PCs.
PCI/PCIe audio is high-end, USB/Firewire audio is for hobbyists. But because of the power inside the cards, you don't need a powerful computer, you just need PCI slots. I know a lot of recording facilities that still run on G4 PowerMacs with Digidesign ProTools and Mix (old gen) cards.
Now that Conroe is available (and soon Kensfield), I really hope that Apple will make another expandable mid-range Mac in the $999-1999 price range, a couple of hard drive bays, 3 PCIe slots. I don't even care for the form factor.
Wait, what? First you're talking about audio solutions that require more bandwidth than FireWire provides (read: very high-end). Then you mention $1500 computers (read: not very high-end). And then you come up with Cubase as an example?
Now, if you believe a $399/499 machine will cannibalise more expensive Macs, that's one thing, but don't come in here saying a $399/499 machine will necessarily have no profit margin when that is demonstrably not the case.
A market that's disappearing, as has been pointed out numerous times. Expandability was important in days where PCs didn't even ship with a sound card, let alone a network card. These days, with so many on-board components, not so much.
From what you say, I'll guess you speak of general purpose desktops with PCI/PCIe expansions slots, and not workstations, AIOs or SFF desktops. On the Mac side these have already disappeared, and this thread is about bringing them back! So I'll take it you speak of the whole computer market, which is mostly Windows towers.
How long do you expect it will take for these to disappear? Consider that we have had USB printers, keyboards and mice for a long time, but these towers continue to have parallel printer ports and old style IBM keyboard and mouse connectors. Things on that side don't move swiftly. Meanwhile, the Mac platform has nothing like the most popular Windows case style, to lure switchers over to the Mac side -- not to mention that many Mac users also want a general purpose tower.
From what you say, I'll guess you speak of general purpose desktops with PCI/PCIe expansions slots, and not workstations, AIOs or SFF desktops.
Correct.
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On the Mac side these have already disappeared, and this thread is about bringing them back!
No, this thread is about whether it's the right idea to bring them back. Check the topic: it's a question, not an assertion.
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How long do you expect it will take for these to disappear? Consider that we have had USB printers, keyboards and mice for a long time, but these towers continue to have parallel printer ports and old style IBM keyboard and mouse connectors. Things on that side don't move swiftly. Meanwhile, the Mac platform has nothing like the most popular Windows case style,
Apple has always been relatively more progressive than most other manufacturers, in getting rid of legacy standards and deploying new ones. (Cf. first iMac for the most extreme example.)
You can argue whether that's right or wrong about them, but it's simply who and how they are. It's not gonna change.
And yes, quite frankly, I cringe every time I see a PC shipped with a PS/2 keyboard. It's still happening today. They save, what, two cents? Meanwhile you've got lots of people that I have to explain to that, no, they cannot plug or unplug PS/2 devices on the fly. Yes, it will work 99% of the time, but the remaining 1%, they risk breaking the port, frying the keyboard or mouse, or worst yet, the entire mainboard. That's simply not the status quo we should have in 2006. If you really want Apple to ship a computer with PS/2 ports, let alone devices, then we have a completely different idea about the Mac platform.
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to lure switchers over to the Mac side -- not to mention that many Mac users also want a general purpose tower.
The last assertion is mere conjecture. You cannot prove it. I would argue that percentage of Mac users caring about having such a general-purpose tower is a lot, lot lower than you believe it to be.
Really? It that's the case why haven't the major PC manufacturers cottened on to this and started offering AIOs and SFFs?
What "major manufacturers"? Newsflash: many big companies have left the PC market entirely. You tell me where to get a PC from IBM. Why do you think they stopped making them? Why do you think they sold their laptop division to Lenovo? Could lack of profits be the reason?
And even those "major manufacturers" that still sell PCs typically aren't manufacturers (including Apple). Manufacturing has almost completely shifted to the low-cost south-east Asia region.
Don't you want to think again about how profitable selling PCs really is?
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Oh dear. We are having a reading comprehension problem. I said "it is not just about expandability".
Well, people said there was no need for a low end Mac. We got the Mac Mini.
People said 15 inches for a bubble iMac was enough because anybigger wouldt would spoil it somehow...or it wouldn't be an iMac anymore...
Arguments were had of unholy proportions about the Intel idea before it was even a twinkle in Steve's eye.
I remember the 'Macs are too expensive' threads.
And they all had one thing in common. They infected many threads. And the threads kept going...and they kept cropping up.
It clearly indicates one thing: it is important to enough people here. And if you extrapolate that? Enough to pan out into potential sales to pad out that quarterly sales report.
Yeesh. Stick some Conroes in a 'slim' tower or otherwise line of Towers beneath the quad range. Easily differentiated. See how they do. (That's in stark contrast to the 'lame entry tower' Apple did before which was just crippled.)
We have Conroe and Wood crest now. And with Octo processing a distinct possibility on th e horizon. Not everyone need pay for 'Octo' and 'Quad' would be more than enough.
With Quads maybe not going into an iMac anytime soon...then a clear differentiator between a 'gaming tower' and the 'pro range' opens up. ANd a clear differentiator between iMac and a Gaming tower opens up.
It's a perfect time to remind us that Apple haven't gone to sleep on their industrial design. It's been a while since we saw a new 'computer' from them. Though I don't see any reason for the case change. Just stick a conroe in. Charge less.
"Why do you think they sold their laptop division to Lenovo? Could lack of profits be the reason?"
Yes. But Apple charges more for everything they make. The mini. The iMac. The Towers.
A gaming 'low end' tower wouldn't be any different. They'll make a profit on it.
Apple, even with the Intel switch, are on their own field. Even though prices are better than they have ever been for what you're getting and quite comparable now to the Dells of the the world.
No, this thread is about whether it's the right idea to bring them back. Check the topic: it's a question, not an assertion.
Give us a break. Such nit picking about the phrasing of an idea diverts us from the topic. I suggested that this thread is about bringing back a lower cost tower, which is jolly well close enough. You're not the only one doing this BTW.
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And yes, quite frankly, I cringe every time I see a PC shipped with a PS/2 keyboard. It's still happening today. . . If you really want Apple to ship a computer with PS/2 ports, let alone devices, then we have a completely different idea about the Mac platform.
I object to your implying I said something I did not. I used old ports as an example of how long it takes for this garbage to disappear from the Windows PC. The ports are still there. This may indicate how long it would takes for Windows towers to disappear. Again, a little careful reading would make it unnecessary for folks to defend themselves against misquotes.
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The last assertion is mere conjecture. You cannot prove it. I would argue that percentage of Mac users caring about having such a general-purpose tower is a lot, lot lower than you believe it to be.
Ah, right on topic, thanks. And you cannot prove your view either. See how short my reply might have been!
What "major manufacturers"? Newsflash: many big companies have left the PC market entirely. You tell me where to get a PC from IBM. Why do you think they stopped making them? Why do you think they sold their laptop division to Lenovo? Could lack of profits be the reason?
And even those "major manufacturers" that still sell PCs typically aren't manufacturers (including Apple). Manufacturing has almost completely shifted to the low-cost south-east Asia region.
Don't you want to think again about how profitable selling PCs really is?
I've got to hand it to you - that is the best evasion of a point I have ever read. You know what I meant. You contend that what Apple offers is just what people want. I'm saying that if that's the case, why aren't there more AIOs and SFFs from Dell, HP, Acer, Sony and the like?
I'm not saying we should do away with the iMac - it has its place as by far the best AIO money can buy. But most people don't want an AIO or SFF, even if those configs suit their needs better than a tower. I'm not talking about serving the present Mac installed-base better (although several people would start buying new Mac towers instead of second-hand ones), I'm talking about attracting more switchers who currently don't buy AIOs or SFFs because it's not what they want or expect from a computer.
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So what else *is* it about?
For crying out loud! I said it already, immediately after I explained the "expandability" part: Lowering cost of entry and using desktop parts instead of laptop ones. The "mini tower" also offers an enclosure for a machine that can scale all the way from $399 to $1999.
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A market that's disappearing, as has been pointed out numerous times.
The 50% number for proportion of the market that are desktops has been bandied-about, I don't know if that's worldwide or U.S. only. How fast is it shrinking? Care to make a prediction? Is it actually shrinking worldwide? Are unit numbers shrinking or is it just that laptops are growing faster than desktops? At what point should you stop producing desktops altogether? I would think that as the desktop market shrinks, it becomes even more important to offer what people actually want (assuming the disappearance takes at least 3 years).
Expandability was important in days where PCs didn't even ship with a sound card, let alone a network card. These days, with so many on-board components, not so much.
Like many of the "mini-tower" nay-sayers, you have ignored that it's not just about expandability. The one PCIe slot I suggest is so that more expensive ($799+) configs can have a decent video card whilst the motherboard has integrated graphics for the cheaper options. The "mini-tower" is also (and more significantly) about lowering the cost of entry to the Mac platform and using desktop parts which are faster and/or higher capacity and/or cheaper than their laptop counterparts.
Since you seem to enjoy implying that I don't know what I'm talking about, I'd like to point out that as I was looking back over the thread, I noticed this post of mine, in which I state "I reckon DELL could sell a version of the proposed $999 Apple tower for $799. It's just that they've got a lot of Pentium Ds to shift right now. In 3 - 4 months, I reckon we'll see $799 Conroe towers from DELL." The post was made just under 3 months ago, and was poo-pooed by Vinea at the time. Dell's XPS 410 (1.86 GHz Conroe) without monitor or external amplified speakers is $809. (Was $799 a couple of weeks ago but the price went up)
All Apple has to do is have its Sales Associates mark off the reason a customer didn't buy a computer. I would bet that "it doesn't have 3 or more PCIe slots" or "it doesn't have a second hard drive bay" or "I can't change out the video card" are very near the bottom of the resulting list, if those reasons even appear at all.
Yep.
Except the gamers, of course. With virtually no games on the Mac, gamers would want to run Windows games. The only ones who would buy a Mac are those who also prefer OS X for non-game computing. Who knows - this market may be larger than Apple thinks, and I am assuming they are sizing it up.
But how many of "the gamers"
1) care to have a machine they can tinker with and mod to the extreme
2) can afford to do such tinkerings, including the latest and greatest graphics cards all the time
3) can, at the same time, not afford to also have a regular computer for actual work?
I'd say not a lot. The "gamers" I know either don't care to have a Mac-type computer at all; i.e. they *don't mind* it when their computer has the occasional BSoD, blown-up power supply unit, non-working this-and-that, because they enjoy tinkering with it enough to fix things (if only temporarily). Or, they have enough money to, secondarily, also have a "serious" computer: one that they can trust to work, and one they can tinker with.
The "serious" computer does *not* need much customizability at all. An iMac will do. Heck, a Mac mini will probably do. And the "tinker" one wouldn't have any brand-name components, because they are more expensive, which rules Apple out anyway; it would have the cheapest, most overclock-able, most bleeding(!)-edge components, which Apple will never offer anyway.
extra hard drives all point to Pro users doing 3-D rendering, capturing, maybe data acquisition.
As has been brought up before: Time Machine?
And, as Apple and others push for people's video libraries as well as audio libraries to be stored on their machines, the capacity required goes up enormously. Laptop HDDs are heavily restricted in this area relative to their desktop counterparts.
The 50% number for proportion of the market that are desktops has been bandied-about, I don't know if that's worldwide or U.S. only. How fast is it shrinking? Care to make a prediction? Is it actually shrinking worldwide?
No, I don't care to make a prediction, but do feel free to look at the statistics from Gartner, IDC and the sorts, and you'll see that, yes, it's a world-wide process.
Are unit numbers shrinking or is it just that laptops are growing faster than desktops?
Laptops are growing faster.
I would think that as the desktop market shrinks, it becomes even more important to offer what people actually want (assuming the disappearance takes at least 3 years).
You should take a look at the Mac product line, it's actually pretty close to what people want. Now you might think I'm talking out of my behind, but I do tech support, software development and network administration, so yes, I do know a thing or two about what people "want". And as lundy said, it's not having more PCIe slots than the neighbor's computer does.
Like many of the "mini-tower" nay-sayers, you have ignored that it's not just about expandability.
It is.
The one PCIe slot I suggest is so that more expensive ($799+) configs can have a decent video card whilst the motherboard has integrated graphics for the cheaper options.
And how, exactly, is that not "expandability"?
The "mini-tower" is also (and more significantly) about lowering the cost of entry to the Mac platform and using desktop parts which are faster and/or higher capacity and/or cheaper than their laptop counterparts.
But Apple doesn't *care* to lower the cost of entry, because unlike most hardware suppliers, they want to have a *profit margin*. A low-cost Mac does not *have* that. You *have* to cripple your low-end products (e.g., iPod shuffle, Mac mini) to an extent in order to entice people to buy something *higher*-end, so you make a *higher* profit margin.
Since you seem to enjoy implying that I don't know what I'm talking about, I'd like to point out that as I was looking back over the thread, I noticed this post of mine, in which I state "I reckon DELL could sell a version of the proposed $999 Apple tower for $799. It's just that they've got a lot of Pentium Ds to shift right now. In 3 - 4 months, I reckon we'll see $799 Conroe towers from DELL." The post was made just under 3 months ago. Dell's XPS 410 (1.86 GHz Conroe) without monitor or external amplified speakers is $809. (Was $799 a couple of weeks ago but the price went up)
See above.
MIDI, sound, and TV tuners are almost exclusively Firewire/USB now-a-days.
Particularly for sound cards: you don't want those in a computer because there's two much electrical noise, all the high-end cards are external.
Someone who bought an iMac or a Mac mini isn't going to spend $500 on a fibre channel card.
Wireless USB will have to be standard before it can take off.
That leaves eSATA and 11n, which would be nice upgrades, but will both probably be standard before PCI slots are.
You're wrong especially for sound cards, Firewire/USB is for entry level products, PCI/PCIe for high-end: Digidesign HD series, Apogee Symphony, MOTU PCI 424, RME, etc... for audio I/Os and some DSP, and there are DSP-only card from Universal Audio, TC PowerCore, etc... And while some of these exist in Firewire form (USB is a joke for Pro Audio), bandwith is very limited with Firewire vs. PCIe. The same with SATA drives vs. Firewire drive, as far as I know old ATA66 drives perform better than external FW400 drives.
I'd rather spend $1500 in a computer than can handle a PCIe audio card and a PCIe DSP card and a couple of SATA drives, than to buy an $1500 iMac and have to use less performant and sometimes more expensive Firewire audio interface, DSP processing and storage.
That's one of the reasons why another expandable (but cheaper) Mac would be a nice addition to Apple's line-up: Home studio, small audio/video facilities, additional editing rooms. From what I've seen so far, expect for a couple of PowerMacs (or Mac Pro), most of these facilities are now PC-based or mixed-environments at best. Audio and now Video are Apple's playground, they should pay more attention to the needs of these markets. As Apple's audio/video software is Mac-only (Logic Pro, FCP...) having PCs in these facilities doesn't even add software sales, people will buy ProTools, Cubase or Nuendo that run on Mac and PCs.
PCI/PCIe audio is high-end, USB/Firewire audio is for hobbyists. But because of the power inside the cards, you don't need a powerful computer, you just need PCI slots. I know a lot of recording facilities that still run on G4 PowerMacs with Digidesign ProTools and Mix (old gen) cards.
Now that Conroe is available (and soon Kensfield), I really hope that Apple will make another expandable mid-range Mac in the $999-1999 price range, a couple of hard drive bays, 3 PCIe slots. I don't even care for the form factor.
As has been brought up before: Time Machine?
As has been brought up before, a secondary internal disk drive is not a proper backup solution. When the computer gets stolen / set on fire / whatever, your backup is gone as well, and then what's the use?
Whereas, an external drive can easily be put in a safe, in your in-laws' house, or wherever. That's a backup. Or, once feasible, storing remotely on a web service like S3/JungleDisk or whathaveyou.
And, as Apple and others push for people's video libraries as well as audio libraries to be stored on their machines, the capacity required goes up enormously. Laptop HDDs are heavily restricted in this area relative to their desktop counterparts.
Yes, agreed, that is a problem.
You're wrong especially for sound cards, Firewire/USB is for entry level products, PCI/PCIe for high-end: Digidesign HD series, Apogee Symphony, MOTU PCI 424, RME, etc... for audio I/Os and some DSP, and there are DSP-only card from Universal Audio, TC PowerCore, etc... And while some of these exist in Firewire form (USB is a joke for Pro Audio), bandwith is very limited with Firewire vs. PCIe. The same with SATA drives vs. Firewire drive, as far as I know old ATA66 drives perform better than external FW400 drives.
I'd rather spend $1500 in a computer than can handle a PCIe audio card and a PCIe DSP card and a couple of SATA drives, than to buy an $1500 iMac and have to use less performant and sometimes more expensive Firewire audio interface, DSP processing and storage.
That's one of the reasons why another expandable (but cheaper) Mac would be a nice addition to Apple's line-up: Home studio, small audio/video facilities, additional editing rooms. From what I've seen so far, expect for a couple of PowerMacs (or Mac Pro), most of these facilities are now PC-based or mixed-environments at best. Audio and now Video are Apple's playground, they should pay more attention to the needs of these markets. As Apple's audio/video software is Mac-only (Logic Pro, FCP...) having PCs in these facilities doesn't even add software sales, people will buy ProTools, Cubase or Nuendo that run on Mac and PCs.
PCI/PCIe audio is high-end, USB/Firewire audio is for hobbyists. But because of the power inside the cards, you don't need a powerful computer, you just need PCI slots. I know a lot of recording facilities that still run on G4 PowerMacs with Digidesign ProTools and Mix (old gen) cards.
Now that Conroe is available (and soon Kensfield), I really hope that Apple will make another expandable mid-range Mac in the $999-1999 price range, a couple of hard drive bays, 3 PCIe slots. I don't even care for the form factor.
Wait, what? First you're talking about audio solutions that require more bandwidth than FireWire provides (read: very high-end). Then you mention $1500 computers (read: not very high-end). And then you come up with Cubase as an example?
Sheesh.
A low-cost Mac does not *have* that.
Wrong! wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong.
Now, if you believe a $399/499 machine will cannibalise more expensive Macs, that's one thing, but don't come in here saying a $399/499 machine will necessarily have no profit margin when that is demonstrably not the case.
You should take a look at the Mac product line, it's actually pretty close to what people want.
Really? It that's the case why haven't the major PC manufacturers cottened on to this and started offering AIOs and SFFs?
And as lundy said, it's not having more PCIe slots than the neighbor's computer does.
I've never said that that's what it's about.
And how, exactly, is that not "expandability"?
Oh dear. We are having a reading comprehension problem. I said "it is not just about expandability".
A market that's disappearing, as has been pointed out numerous times. Expandability was important in days where PCs didn't even ship with a sound card, let alone a network card. These days, with so many on-board components, not so much.
From what you say, I'll guess you speak of general purpose desktops with PCI/PCIe expansions slots, and not workstations, AIOs or SFF desktops. On the Mac side these have already disappeared, and this thread is about bringing them back! So I'll take it you speak of the whole computer market, which is mostly Windows towers.
How long do you expect it will take for these to disappear? Consider that we have had USB printers, keyboards and mice for a long time, but these towers continue to have parallel printer ports and old style IBM keyboard and mouse connectors. Things on that side don't move swiftly. Meanwhile, the Mac platform has nothing like the most popular Windows case style, to lure switchers over to the Mac side -- not to mention that many Mac users also want a general purpose tower.
From what you say, I'll guess you speak of general purpose desktops with PCI/PCIe expansions slots, and not workstations, AIOs or SFF desktops.
Correct.
On the Mac side these have already disappeared, and this thread is about bringing them back!
No, this thread is about whether it's the right idea to bring them back. Check the topic: it's a question, not an assertion.
How long do you expect it will take for these to disappear? Consider that we have had USB printers, keyboards and mice for a long time, but these towers continue to have parallel printer ports and old style IBM keyboard and mouse connectors. Things on that side don't move swiftly. Meanwhile, the Mac platform has nothing like the most popular Windows case style,
Apple has always been relatively more progressive than most other manufacturers, in getting rid of legacy standards and deploying new ones. (Cf. first iMac for the most extreme example.)
You can argue whether that's right or wrong about them, but it's simply who and how they are. It's not gonna change.
And yes, quite frankly, I cringe every time I see a PC shipped with a PS/2 keyboard. It's still happening today. They save, what, two cents? Meanwhile you've got lots of people that I have to explain to that, no, they cannot plug or unplug PS/2 devices on the fly. Yes, it will work 99% of the time, but the remaining 1%, they risk breaking the port, frying the keyboard or mouse, or worst yet, the entire mainboard. That's simply not the status quo we should have in 2006. If you really want Apple to ship a computer with PS/2 ports, let alone devices, then we have a completely different idea about the Mac platform.
to lure switchers over to the Mac side -- not to mention that many Mac users also want a general purpose tower.
The last assertion is mere conjecture. You cannot prove it. I would argue that percentage of Mac users caring about having such a general-purpose tower is a lot, lot lower than you believe it to be.
Really? It that's the case why haven't the major PC manufacturers cottened on to this and started offering AIOs and SFFs?
What "major manufacturers"? Newsflash: many big companies have left the PC market entirely. You tell me where to get a PC from IBM. Why do you think they stopped making them? Why do you think they sold their laptop division to Lenovo? Could lack of profits be the reason?
And even those "major manufacturers" that still sell PCs typically aren't manufacturers (including Apple). Manufacturing has almost completely shifted to the low-cost south-east Asia region.
Don't you want to think again about how profitable selling PCs really is?
Oh dear. We are having a reading comprehension problem. I said "it is not just about expandability".
So what else *is* it about?
People said 15 inches for a bubble iMac was enough because anybigger wouldt would spoil it somehow...or it wouldn't be an iMac anymore...
Arguments were had of unholy proportions about the Intel idea before it was even a twinkle in Steve's eye.
I remember the 'Macs are too expensive' threads.
And they all had one thing in common. They infected many threads. And the threads kept going...and they kept cropping up.
It clearly indicates one thing: it is important to enough people here. And if you extrapolate that? Enough to pan out into potential sales to pad out that quarterly sales report.
Yeesh. Stick some Conroes in a 'slim' tower or otherwise line of Towers beneath the quad range. Easily differentiated. See how they do. (That's in stark contrast to the 'lame entry tower' Apple did before which was just crippled.)
We have Conroe and Wood crest now. And with Octo processing a distinct possibility on th e horizon. Not everyone need pay for 'Octo' and 'Quad' would be more than enough.
With Quads maybe not going into an iMac anytime soon...then a clear differentiator between a 'gaming tower' and the 'pro range' opens up. ANd a clear differentiator between iMac and a Gaming tower opens up.
It's a perfect time to remind us that Apple haven't gone to sleep on their industrial design. It's been a while since we saw a new 'computer' from them. Though I don't see any reason for the case change. Just stick a conroe in. Charge less.
Lemon Bon Bon.
Choice.
Lemon Bon Bon
Yes. But Apple charges more for everything they make. The mini. The iMac. The Towers.
A gaming 'low end' tower wouldn't be any different. They'll make a profit on it.
Apple, even with the Intel switch, are on their own field. Even though prices are better than they have ever been for what you're getting and quite comparable now to the Dells of the the world.
Lemon Bon Bon
Why bother making Mac Pros then?
It's not going to disappear any time soon.
And there's good money to be made by people who want a Mac gaming/expando but not Workstation tower.
Lemon Bon Bon.
No, this thread is about whether it's the right idea to bring them back. Check the topic: it's a question, not an assertion.
Give us a break. Such nit picking about the phrasing of an idea diverts us from the topic. I suggested that this thread is about bringing back a lower cost tower, which is jolly well close enough. You're not the only one doing this BTW.
And yes, quite frankly, I cringe every time I see a PC shipped with a PS/2 keyboard. It's still happening today. . . If you really want Apple to ship a computer with PS/2 ports, let alone devices, then we have a completely different idea about the Mac platform.
I object to your implying I said something I did not. I used old ports as an example of how long it takes for this garbage to disappear from the Windows PC. The ports are still there. This may indicate how long it would takes for Windows towers to disappear. Again, a little careful reading would make it unnecessary for folks to defend themselves against misquotes.
The last assertion is mere conjecture. You cannot prove it. I would argue that percentage of Mac users caring about having such a general-purpose tower is a lot, lot lower than you believe it to be.
Ah, right on topic, thanks. And you cannot prove your view either. See how short my reply might have been!
What "major manufacturers"? Newsflash: many big companies have left the PC market entirely. You tell me where to get a PC from IBM. Why do you think they stopped making them? Why do you think they sold their laptop division to Lenovo? Could lack of profits be the reason?
And even those "major manufacturers" that still sell PCs typically aren't manufacturers (including Apple). Manufacturing has almost completely shifted to the low-cost south-east Asia region.
Don't you want to think again about how profitable selling PCs really is?
I've got to hand it to you - that is the best evasion of a point I have ever read. You know what I meant. You contend that what Apple offers is just what people want. I'm saying that if that's the case, why aren't there more AIOs and SFFs from Dell, HP, Acer, Sony and the like?
I'm not saying we should do away with the iMac - it has its place as by far the best AIO money can buy. But most people don't want an AIO or SFF, even if those configs suit their needs better than a tower. I'm not talking about serving the present Mac installed-base better (although several people would start buying new Mac towers instead of second-hand ones), I'm talking about attracting more switchers who currently don't buy AIOs or SFFs because it's not what they want or expect from a computer.
So what else *is* it about?
For crying out loud! I said it already, immediately after I explained the "expandability" part: Lowering cost of entry and using desktop parts instead of laptop ones. The "mini tower" also offers an enclosure for a machine that can scale all the way from $399 to $1999.
"So what else *is* it about?"
Choice.
Apple, even with the Intel switch, are on their own field.
I smell a contradiction.