Here's what I mean by the clip would've bent the other way:
Man that is some awesome Modern Art. The guy in it looks kinda fat or something. With a belly like that you'd be bending a whole lot of things in your pocket. The nano wouldn't last a day.
good, apple needs to learn to stop ripping the customer off. We all have fallen that apple is this hip, down to earth guys, but they are just as bad as microsoft. I rather buy some cheapy china made mp3 player that does the same crap as a ipod of like half the price like them on http://www.mp4nation.com or a archos, now thats a multimedia machine....Hope iPods go iBust.
Yeah like a Creative Zen or Archos. Whatever floats your boat, I guess... This clip-bending is weird though. I smell a class-action lawsuit brewing.
OK, for all those people who say it's a design flaw and should be made stronger:
Think about this. What if it were stronger? What if it didn't bend? What would happen?
If it didn't bend, it would remain stiff, and dig into whatever was putting pressure on it, i.e., the guy's flesh.
So instead of bending (giving way) it would force itself into the guy's flesh and cause who knows what kind of damage. I think having it bend is a safety issue; it's designed well.
It's almost certain the iPod fell because the clip bent (over-opened), and had no reason to stay clipped to my pocket. If the hinge was made so that the clip could be opened all the way, it'd have just fallen out and not put any strength on the clip - which means no damage to anything (except for impact on the ground, which it resisted pretty well).
Why is this a story - so you broke your shuffle - big deal. Plenty of people break valuable equipment that they own every day - but surely we don' t have to suffer another round of why didn't they think of this that and the other.
Bottom line look after your stuff better. I find it hard to believe the clip bent as easily as you say it bent and it wont bend back.
Why are so many of you douche bags? To anyone who isn't a complete moron it's obviously a flaw in the design. If they used something like titanium for the clip parts we wouldn't be having this one-sided ignoramus discussion.
Really? It just looks like he's over bent it. ie. user error. Stick something in your pocket, sit down, and you'll bend it as you bend. It's not rocket science.
The problem here comes because they've used a material which is easy taken past the point where plastic deformation occurs.
Steel would be a better choice for the clip than titanium. Titanium is only about twice as stiff as Aluminium and it deforms too easily still. Steel on the other hand is twice as stiff as Titanium (ie 4 times as stiff as aluminium) and easier to machine plus has a wide elastic range so springs back into shape well.
Both would be heavier and more expensive of course since you can't extrude Titanium or Steel as easily as aluminium or hydroform them.
Some plastics would actually be better than aluminium too but of course Apple would be accused as being cheap and then you'd get the 'I scratched my iPod' whingers instead.
A stainless steel shuffle would be quite cool though.
6000 series (35 ksi yield), 7000 series (60-100 ksi yield).
I'm not sure where you got those figures from but they look wrong to me coming from a bicycle materials background. There's not much difference between 6061-T6 and 7005-T6 for instance, the two most commonly used aluminium alloys used in bicycles which both have around 40-42 kpsi. The choice usually comes down to manufacturing processes and geography rather than a materials choice. USA = 6061, Taiwan = 7005 since 6061 is more labour intensive and requires more post welding work.
There's also some nice 6000 series alloys. For instance 6069 has a 55-71 kpsi yield after T6 and still offers 20-25% elongation as opposed to 10-13% for other aluminiums. It's almost approaching Titanium levels but without the weight penalty.
That'd probably be more apt for Apple here as the clip would have bent and sprung back into shape instead of permanently deforming.
The other nice alloy is 2014-T6 which beats most of the 6 and 7 series alloys but is a bitch to work with. Typically, it's only used for handlebars as making a bike out of it is brutal.
And then there's the Scandium alloys. Mmmm.
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent
7000 series (typically 80 ksi yield) is widely used in the aircraft industry, 5000 series (35 ksi yield) is widely used in the marine industry, any application where weight AND cost are important, in those situations it's tough to beat aluminum! Not by high strength titanium, not by high strength SS, and not by high strength FRP. Strength per dollar and strength per pound. It's important to remember that it's the specific strength (strength divided by density) and specific modulus (modulus divided by density) of any material, if weight is a central issue. After that it's a matter of cost.
Yup. There's much more to it than just material strength and the choice here is obviously manufacturing. There's some some aluminium sausage machine in China squeezing out n shuffles a second out of it's die.
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent
Stress cracking isn't an issue provided it hasn't exceeded it's plastic limit. I'm guessing Apple used something similar to 3003 aluminum (but if it was made in China, who knows), that's usually cheaper than other aluminums.
China is almost entirely 7005. I wonder though if Apple heat treats the clip though as there's quite a difference between unheat treated and treated and with some alloys you've also got to age the alloy post processing. ie. it gets stronger if you leave it a month.
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent
A redesign would seem to be in order, if this situation occurs with any reasonable frequency of occurrence.
A nice steel spring clip perhaps then they could have done away with the hinge entirely though it may not have looked so pretty.
Or people could just be more careful, or is that not so obvious?
Titanium is only about twice as stiff as Aluminium and it deforms too easily still. Steel on the other hand is twice as stiff as Titanium (ie 4 times as stiff as aluminium) and easier to machine plus has a wide elastic range so springs back into shape well.
Actually... It's much much stiffer than even T6 aluminum. The Shuffle's probably made from T0, not very tough. A tougher aluminum like T3 would be better. The higher the T rating, the higher the percentage of titanium in the aluminum. Titanium is amazingly hard to bend, much harder than steel at the same thickness. (Aircraft engineer speaking)
Actually... It's much much stiffer than even T6 aluminum. The Shuffle's probably made from T0, not very tough. A tougher aluminum like T3 would be better. The higher the T rating, the higher the percentage of titanium in the aluminum. Titanium is amazingly hard to bend, much harder than steel at the same thickness. (Aircraft engineer speaking)
I'm going to ask which aircraft company you work for because you're freaking me out now and I don't want to be on one of your planes.
Tn refers to the level of post processing - ie heat treatment, aging, tempering and working after a structure is produced to restore the strength lost through welding usually.
There's NO Titanium in any commercial aluminium alloys I've come across such as 6061, 7005, 7075, 2014 etc. If you know one then let me know as it sounds like a cool alloy and we'll knock up a bike frame with it.
Titanium alloy on the other hand is usually an alloy containing Aluminium and Vanadium, usually 3Al/2.5V or 6Al/4V. Commercially pure Titanium is rarely used as it's weaker than the alloys just as pure Aluminium isn't either or Pure Iron either. The n000 series numbers indicate the metals it's alloyed with such as Magnesium, Zinc, Copper...
Titanium has a Youngs Modulus that's about half that of steel - ie. it's twice as easy to bend at the same thickness. You have to use more of it to get the same stiffness. It's about 60% as dense as steel though so you can get away with using more of it but it's almost as strong as lower grade steel so often you don't need to if you don't mind a bit more flex. Often that's desirable in a bicycle frame so you can end up with something as strong as steel but weighing 40% less and nice and comfy. Bitch to weld though.
I think the Aircraft Industry uses somewhat different (and higher quality) aluminum alloys than the stuff that goes into bikes. They have to throw away aluminum that's passed it's 1~2 year expiry date, even when it's been kept in a sealed environment. I'm in the UK, maybe we use a different system for naming the types of aluminum.
So instead of bending (giving way) it would force itself into the guy's flesh and cause who knows what kind of damage. I think having it bend is a safety issue; it's designed well.
Unless you've stuffed a knife down your pocket I don't think hard metal things will cause serious harm to one's flesh. Uncomfortable when you have a mobile phone press against your stomach, or a bag of coins, or a big wallet with a lot of hard credit/ ATM/ other cards in it, but damaging flesh, I don't think so. You could probably implant a Shuffle under your skin around your lower belly area without causing too much damage. I'm no surgeon, but iMHO, my two cents.... said two cents pressing against my belly right now.
OK, for all those people who say it's a design flaw and should be made stronger:
Think about this. What if it were stronger? What if it didn't bend? What would happen?
If it didn't bend, it would remain stiff, and dig into whatever was putting pressure on it, i.e., the guy's flesh.
So instead of bending (giving way) it would force itself into the guy's flesh and cause who knows what kind of damage. I think having it bend is a safety issue; it's designed well.
If you are not being serious I think this is the best post so far.
I think the Aircraft Industry uses somewhat different (and higher quality) aluminum alloys than the stuff that goes into bikes. They have to throw away aluminum that's passed it's 1~2 year expiry date, even when it's been kept in a sealed environment. I'm in the UK, maybe we use a different system for naming the types of aluminum.
I'm in the UK too. We don't use different names for different types or the Tn treatment schemes anymore. There's a very old naming scheme but it's years old and doesn't even name some of the alloys now in use. eg. 6061 (not 6061-T6) was H20 in the UK.
And no, the aircraft industry uses the exact same alloys and often of lesser quality. They can use a lot more of it so it's less critical than in say a bicycle handlebar weighing 130g that your face depends on or a 200g seatpost that's pointing up your arse.
My favourite design of late using aluminium in a really special way was the Ibis Ripley by John Castellano - He's an aircraft engineer btw - which uses the properties of 6069 to provide a pivotless flexible suspension strut in flat plate aluminium. Like an aircraft wing, it flexes up and down which is something some materials ignoramuses just don't get.
crap, i hit mine with a hammer, i'm going to sue apple, its mushed and the click ring fell off. talk about bad design. I knew I should have bought the FP3 player instead!!
Comments
Here's what I mean by the clip would've bent the other way:
Man that is some awesome Modern Art.
good, apple needs to learn to stop ripping the customer off. We all have fallen that apple is this hip, down to earth guys, but they are just as bad as microsoft. I rather buy some cheapy china made mp3 player that does the same crap as a ipod of like half the price like them on http://www.mp4nation.com or a archos, now thats a multimedia machine....Hope iPods go iBust.
Yeah like a Creative Zen or Archos.
Yeah like a Creative Zen or Archos.
That's his first post, he probably just joined to say that.
I've two previos iPods, and have had no problems with them.
He just wants you to stuff your fingers down your pants... Or someone elses pants. Awwww yeah.................
Stuffing fingers down someone else's pants. Mmmmm, lawsuit.
Think about this. What if it were stronger? What if it didn't bend? What would happen?
If it didn't bend, it would remain stiff, and dig into whatever was putting pressure on it, i.e., the guy's flesh.
So instead of bending (giving way) it would force itself into the guy's flesh and cause who knows what kind of damage. I think having it bend is a safety issue; it's designed well.
Bottom line look after your stuff better. I find it hard to believe the clip bent as easily as you say it bent and it wont bend back.
Why are so many of you douche bags? To anyone who isn't a complete moron it's obviously a flaw in the design. If they used something like titanium for the clip parts we wouldn't be having this one-sided ignoramus discussion.
Really? It just looks like he's over bent it. ie. user error. Stick something in your pocket, sit down, and you'll bend it as you bend. It's not rocket science.
The problem here comes because they've used a material which is easy taken past the point where plastic deformation occurs.
Steel would be a better choice for the clip than titanium. Titanium is only about twice as stiff as Aluminium and it deforms too easily still. Steel on the other hand is twice as stiff as Titanium (ie 4 times as stiff as aluminium) and easier to machine plus has a wide elastic range so springs back into shape well.
Both would be heavier and more expensive of course since you can't extrude Titanium or Steel as easily as aluminium or hydroform them.
Some plastics would actually be better than aluminium too but of course Apple would be accused as being cheap and then you'd get the 'I scratched my iPod' whingers instead.
A stainless steel shuffle would be quite cool though.
6000 series (35 ksi yield), 7000 series (60-100 ksi yield).
I'm not sure where you got those figures from but they look wrong to me coming from a bicycle materials background. There's not much difference between 6061-T6 and 7005-T6 for instance, the two most commonly used aluminium alloys used in bicycles which both have around 40-42 kpsi. The choice usually comes down to manufacturing processes and geography rather than a materials choice. USA = 6061, Taiwan = 7005 since 6061 is more labour intensive and requires more post welding work.
There's also some nice 6000 series alloys. For instance 6069 has a 55-71 kpsi yield after T6 and still offers 20-25% elongation as opposed to 10-13% for other aluminiums. It's almost approaching Titanium levels but without the weight penalty.
That'd probably be more apt for Apple here as the clip would have bent and sprung back into shape instead of permanently deforming.
The other nice alloy is 2014-T6 which beats most of the 6 and 7 series alloys but is a bitch to work with. Typically, it's only used for handlebars as making a bike out of it is brutal.
And then there's the Scandium alloys. Mmmm.
7000 series (typically 80 ksi yield) is widely used in the aircraft industry, 5000 series (35 ksi yield) is widely used in the marine industry, any application where weight AND cost are important, in those situations it's tough to beat aluminum! Not by high strength titanium, not by high strength SS, and not by high strength FRP. Strength per dollar and strength per pound. It's important to remember that it's the specific strength (strength divided by density) and specific modulus (modulus divided by density) of any material, if weight is a central issue. After that it's a matter of cost.
Yup. There's much more to it than just material strength and the choice here is obviously manufacturing. There's some some aluminium sausage machine in China squeezing out n shuffles a second out of it's die.
Stress cracking isn't an issue provided it hasn't exceeded it's plastic limit. I'm guessing Apple used something similar to 3003 aluminum (but if it was made in China, who knows), that's usually cheaper than other aluminums.
China is almost entirely 7005. I wonder though if Apple heat treats the clip though as there's quite a difference between unheat treated and treated and with some alloys you've also got to age the alloy post processing. ie. it gets stronger if you leave it a month.
A redesign would seem to be in order, if this situation occurs with any reasonable frequency of occurrence.
A nice steel spring clip perhaps then they could have done away with the hinge entirely though it may not have looked so pretty.
Or people could just be more careful, or is that not so obvious?
What will I do? How will I survive?
sjt
What will I do? How will I survive?
There's always bubble wrap.
Titanium is only about twice as stiff as Aluminium and it deforms too easily still. Steel on the other hand is twice as stiff as Titanium (ie 4 times as stiff as aluminium) and easier to machine plus has a wide elastic range so springs back into shape well.
Actually... It's much much stiffer than even T6 aluminum. The Shuffle's probably made from T0, not very tough. A tougher aluminum like T3 would be better. The higher the T rating, the higher the percentage of titanium in the aluminum. Titanium is amazingly hard to bend, much harder than steel at the same thickness. (Aircraft engineer speaking)
Actually... It's much much stiffer than even T6 aluminum. The Shuffle's probably made from T0, not very tough. A tougher aluminum like T3 would be better. The higher the T rating, the higher the percentage of titanium in the aluminum. Titanium is amazingly hard to bend, much harder than steel at the same thickness. (Aircraft engineer speaking)
I'm going to ask which aircraft company you work for because you're freaking me out now and I don't want to be on one of your planes.
Tn refers to the level of post processing - ie heat treatment, aging, tempering and working after a structure is produced to restore the strength lost through welding usually.
There's NO Titanium in any commercial aluminium alloys I've come across such as 6061, 7005, 7075, 2014 etc. If you know one then let me know as it sounds like a cool alloy and we'll knock up a bike frame with it.
Titanium alloy on the other hand is usually an alloy containing Aluminium and Vanadium, usually 3Al/2.5V or 6Al/4V. Commercially pure Titanium is rarely used as it's weaker than the alloys just as pure Aluminium isn't either or Pure Iron either. The n000 series numbers indicate the metals it's alloyed with such as Magnesium, Zinc, Copper...
Titanium has a Youngs Modulus that's about half that of steel - ie. it's twice as easy to bend at the same thickness. You have to use more of it to get the same stiffness. It's about 60% as dense as steel though so you can get away with using more of it but it's almost as strong as lower grade steel so often you don't need to if you don't mind a bit more flex. Often that's desirable in a bicycle frame so you can end up with something as strong as steel but weighing 40% less and nice and comfy. Bitch to weld though.
So instead of bending (giving way) it would force itself into the guy's flesh and cause who knows what kind of damage. I think having it bend is a safety issue; it's designed well.
OK, for all those people who say it's a design flaw and should be made stronger:
Think about this. What if it were stronger? What if it didn't bend? What would happen?
If it didn't bend, it would remain stiff, and dig into whatever was putting pressure on it, i.e., the guy's flesh.
So instead of bending (giving way) it would force itself into the guy's flesh and cause who knows what kind of damage. I think having it bend is a safety issue; it's designed well.
If you are not being serious I think this is the best post so far.
I think the Aircraft Industry uses somewhat different (and higher quality) aluminum alloys than the stuff that goes into bikes. They have to throw away aluminum that's passed it's 1~2 year expiry date, even when it's been kept in a sealed environment. I'm in the UK, maybe we use a different system for naming the types of aluminum.
I'm in the UK too. We don't use different names for different types or the Tn treatment schemes anymore. There's a very old naming scheme but it's years old and doesn't even name some of the alloys now in use. eg. 6061 (not 6061-T6) was H20 in the UK.
And no, the aircraft industry uses the exact same alloys and often of lesser quality. They can use a lot more of it so it's less critical than in say a bicycle handlebar weighing 130g that your face depends on or a 200g seatpost that's pointing up your arse.
My favourite design of late using aluminium in a really special way was the Ibis Ripley by John Castellano - He's an aircraft engineer btw - which uses the properties of 6069 to provide a pivotless flexible suspension strut in flat plate aluminium. Like an aircraft wing, it flexes up and down which is something some materials ignoramuses just don't get.
http://www.castellanodesigns.com/tech.html
Anyway, straying off topic somewhat.
crap, i hit mine with a hammer, i'm going to sue apple, its mushed and the click ring fell off. talk about bad design. I knew I should have bought the FP3 player instead!!
http://www.fisher-price.com/fp.aspx?...0&e=fp3landing
You're going to sue over a $79 shuffle? Get real. If you hit any electronic device with a hammer, you might as well put the hammer to your head next.