avon b7

I found a heavily redacted file of the case,(. pdf):

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.courthousenews.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/Apple-iPhone-motion-for-class-cert.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwi007HX44-EAxVQgP0HHT_kB2A4FBAWegQICBAB&usg=AOvVaw0XWOmus6tWTw53K-NTONpN

And this was part of that:

"First, Prof. McFadden investigated what app store commission rates Apple would have charged in a competitive but-for world (“BFW”). But for Apple’s anticompetitive conduct, there

9secondkox2 said:

avon b7 said:

The whole point is choice. 

Contact of any kind, be it in person or online, comes with risks. 

The App Store itself comes with risks and there is literally nothing Apple can do to really eliminate those risks. We live with them and hope a combination of common sense and common protections will reduce the chances of being impacted. 

The risks exist for everyone, though. 

Are those 600 APIs risk free? Probably not. Will there be some nasty bugs sitting in them? We live with these risks day to day. Some malicious, some not. 

It is also entirely possible for an app store to offer more protections and have a better human review process than the official Apple App Store. I wonder what Phil would say to that? 

It can swing both ways but the user must decide, not Apple (or not only Apple at least). 

It's also entirely possible that an app store could be more restrictive than the App Store with regards to content. 

Anyone who thinks it is dangerous to use non-Apple sanctioned app store will be able to completely ignore third party app stores and any of those risks. 

The most important thing though, is that the user will be choosing to do so and not be obliged to pass through one toll gate where only Apple reaps the rewards in detriment to both users and competitors through lack of competition. 

At the end of the day, and Phil understands this, it's more about money than security. 

The Apple App Store has paid out billions, Apple says. It made a pretty penny in the process (even when taking into account running costs). 

What the EU is trying to do is level the field. Choice is part of that. 

People already have choice. Choice of apps, choice of phones, choice of providers, etc. 

What you propose is a misnomer. 

Right now you can get any app from any company on the App Store. Plenty of choice. 

Oh, wait. You’re not talking about choice, you’re talking about stripping the rights of a business to make money off of something they built with their hard earned money, time, energy, and risk taking - in order for others to get a free ride. 

Sorry. That’s not how business work at its core.

companies can sell apps. But they pay apple a platform commission just like you do when you sell anywhere, be it brick and mortar stores, online retailers, bookstores, coffee shops, etc. 

what you advocate is punishing successful companies and removing their right to earn for their hard earned sales space while propping up the less successful by forcibly making the successful pay for their ride. 

That’s theft at gunpoint. 

You clearly haven't read anything on the DMA/DSA package. 

I suggest you do.

"Sorry. That’s not how business work at its core."

You will find that is completely wrong at its core when applied to the situation the EU (with good reason) wants to tackle. 

Now, if Apple agreed with you, it would have taken measures well before now to get any wrongs righted. 

The fact that it hasn't, says it all and it had margin to do so. 

The hard truth is that Apple knows it's a gatekeeper and has been for a while now. 

It had a good ride. Google too! And the others. 

It's been extremely lucky (the EU banks haven't been) that the EU didn't deem the App Store contract clauses abusive and demand the return of funds to developers and customers. 

The complaints never asked for that. 

Over the last ten years Spanish banks alone have had to return billions to customers. 

If it had been up for consideration I wouldn't like to guess which way that would have gone. 

Your idea of how business works is being challenged in the EU, South Korea, Japan (?) and what do you think will happen in the US? The land of the lobby.

Which way do you think things will go there? 

People have not had choice. There is no argument about that and one of the reasons Apple probably hasn't fought this legally is that it knows full well that the 'informational' side of the 'contract' with users is not transparent in any way. 

Choice was taken from them, in the vast majority of cases without them even knowing because they were never informed. 

I have yet to meet an iOS user that has a relatively decent understanding of the restrictions that buying an iDevice brings. 

I would love for someone to officially tackle that particular issue. 

The EU wants to give that choice back to users. 

Apple has made a proposition but, to be brutally honest, I can't see how it meets even the premise of the preamble of the legal text, let alone the text itself.

But we will see. 

The whole point is choice. 

Contact of any kind, be it in person or online, comes with risks. 

The App Store itself comes with risks and there is literally nothing Apple can do to really eliminate those risks. We live with them and hope a combination of common sense and common protections will reduce the chances of being impacted. 

The risks exist for everyone, though. 

Are those 600 APIs risk free? Probably not. Will there be some nasty bugs sitting in them? We live with these risks day to day. Some malicious, some not. 

It is also entirely possible for an app store to offer more protections and have a better human review process than the official Apple App Store. I wonder what Phil would say to that? 

It can swing both ways but the user must decide, not Apple (or not only Apple at least). 

It's also entirely possible that an app store could be more restrictive than the App Store with regards to content. 

Anyone who thinks it is dangerous to use non-Apple sanctioned app store will be able to completely ignore third party app stores and any of those risks. 

The most important thing though, is that the user will be choosing to do so and not be obliged to pass through one toll gate where only Apple reaps the rewards in detriment to both users and competitors through lack of competition. 

At the end of the day, and Phil understands this, it's more about money than security. 

The Apple App Store has paid out billions, Apple says. It made a pretty penny in the process (even when taking into account running costs). 

What the EU is trying to do is level the field. Choice is part of that. 

It's been known for a while that Huawei is developing 'network sensing' technologies for implementation in 6G.

That has been reported in some of their research papers so it's no secret. 

Network sensing should be a pillar of 6G or that is what is expected.  Basically using wireless signals in an environment as a sensor element. 

Use cases are quite varied but in some situations it could substitute certain wearables. 

It's still a way off (6G isn't expected until 2030) but I just learnt that on one particular 6G research project in Europe, Apple is working with Huawei precisely on network sensing, along with another company, maybe others too. Network sensing in general has been on the lips of the major ICT players for a few years now. 

Looking ahead to the mid-term, it seems such technology would blend well with the needs of the VP. 

Massiveattack87 said:

When can EU realize that their law and regulations will NOT make the environment more competitive among Apple and others? 

The best competition is always offering a competitive infrastructure in Europe where talented people NEVER leave Europe, but build their own enterprises and make them larger and bigger. 

Europe has lost their decades to catch up with American tech enterprises and face more and more newcomers, which threat European enterprises.

You have AI. What does Europe do instead of building their own AI competitors? Regulation. 

It is not sustainable to defend the European market with more regulations. 

Language barrier, living in a rude and stubborn environment, too high taxes... 

Europe is losing and losing talented kids to the US. 

Learn from Apple, Microsoft, OpenAi, Meta, Netflix instead of punishing them. 
Study how Europe can build such enterprises and make them to US competitors.

AI absolutely must be regulated. No one anywhere would argue otherwise. 

Yet, in spite of our regulations, people here are overwhelmingly happy with the EU in general. 

https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/press-room/20231204IPR15637/survey-shows-europeans-value-eu-membership-and-interested-in-european-elections

Nothing will ever be perfect for everyone but issues such as Healthcare, Climate, Security and Poverty are top concerns. That shows an interest for greater good and improving quality of life.