acgmph

sog35 said:

And the stock is down $6 billion today because of a $300 million fine.

Friken ridiculous.  Its time to fire Tim Cook and install a CEO who knows how to deal with Wall Street. 

You obviously have no idea how the stock market works... You probably thought you'll make a killing by buying a few AAPL shares early in the year and wait for them to grow to $150 to sell and make a quick buck. There are many other forces at play when price is set, and if you look at the overall market today, most of the companies I follow are in the red, including AAPL, and the ones that aren't are only fractions up. For example, Netflix is down 1.5% today.... did you hear anything negative about them?? So please take your amateurish stock market understanding somewhere else. Moderators should ban you for the foul language you used in the forum too

maestro64 said:

First for those of you who do not understand this topic of taxes, there is a thing call the university and they offer you a 4 year degree in tax accounting.

This issue if very complicated and as the others pointed out the US laws are old and out dated from the stand point it is base on companies making all their profits in the US not out side the US, and it get more complicated depending on where the product was manufactured and then finally sold.

Simply put the US law does not tax profits made out side the US where the product was not originally sold from within the US Boarders. Apple products sold in the EU are still manufactures in China and then sold through it Irish operations. Because the Ireland if part of the EU all the profits Apple makes in the EU are taxed on the Ireland tax code. Plus Ireland does not tax profits on products sold outside the EU as long as the company paid local taxes where the item was sold.

Now, Apple does not keep its non-US profits in the Ireland they are kept in the Cayman Island because of their great tax codes with companies.

All the US government had to do is pass a tax law which says all US companies will pay taxes on all profits made anywhere in the world even if they pay taxes in those companies. France does this, and look at all the great companies who want to set up headquarters there. This is the point Cook is making without coming out and saying it, the Laws only assuming profits are made in the US. There are some countries which tax their companies on all profits world wide, but it is at a reduced rate, why, since those companies were not using resourcing in the home countries to make those profits in other countries, the tax is proportional to the home companies resources being uses to support that company.

Oh even if the US change the tax laws most companies will still not pay the tax, why most operate a business entity within the region they are doing business to shelter it from various tax and legal issues. I world for a large company and we had 46 entities around the world which operate as their own company from the main parent company.

To personalize this for people. Imagine you work in the UK for a UK company and you are a US citizen and you pay UK taxes because you have too and it is 50% tax rate which is close to that. Then you return home with your savings and the US saysyou owe them 25% for federal taxes plus 15% for self employment tax (social security - both your's and the company's portion) and you also have to pay 3% medicare. This is what would happen to apple in a way if they brought the money home.

BTW, what the us does for individual in this situation is allows you to deduct the taxes you pay to other countries and if those taxes are higher than what you would have paid in the US then you do not have to pay the US taxes, not true for companies. 

That's all true, and in addition to your post there's the transfer prices issue, a magnificent way for a multinational to lower its tax bill. Take R&D for example, at Apple, they can cross-charge their US HQ for "R&D" cost and transfer US-earned sales money to Ireland where they pay a lower tax rate, paying less taxes in the US, because of R&D cost. That's the reason every time I hear Apple hiring more people for their R&D center in Ireland I call BS because I know it's just for lowering their tax bill and they don't innovate squat in Ireland. This is tax evasion, and it's hard to prove because there's no way to quantify the cost R&D for each product. More so, this adds to the reason why Apple is so secretive about its innovation center (on top of IP theft). 

People who defend these practices are stealing from their own pockets. Every time you defend Apple's tax policies, you're defending the massive US budget deficit. 

sog35 said:

acgmph said:

At least I wasn't the only one who thought the thing was a boring Apple PR piece: http://qz.com/578585/every-missed-opportunity-during-the-apple-puff-piece-on-60-minutes/

As for the tax piece, I only have this to say: if a country taxes corporations considerably less than its people, then it's a tax heaven. Ireland does that. So does the Netherlands and other places. In the Netherlands (where I lived and worked) companies that cut deals with the government there to have a PO Box company there (literally, just a PO Box -- like Apple and Facebook do) pay less than 10% tax (usually about 7%). Meanwhile, Dutch residents pay up to 52% tax (yes, you're reading that right). No wonder Europeans are pissed off at these deals and the EU Parliament and Commission are investigating, when the Europeans, and not the corporations that generated these crises are the ones paying for bailouts and failures of their governments to regulate into place these transborder "digital age" and financial services goliaths.

And if you're defending these practices because they have to protect the interest of their shareholders and they paid the legal tax rate, then you're just a tool to them, because none of these companies care about you, they only care about your money. Period. Why people care so much and jump to defend these companies is beyond me. Probably, secretly, you think Apple loves you. They don't. You're just a dollar sign to them. Stop being a tool. Stop having feelings for these companies, you will be disappointed when you find out what you really are to them. 

DUMB.

Stop treating Corporations like humans. They are NOT humans.

Corporations make profits and they need to pay taxes.
Corporations pay dividends to shareholders and shareholders need to pay taxes on those dividends.
Shareholders need to pay taxes AGAIN when they sell their shares.

At the end of the day shareholders are paying 60%+ tax rate when you combine the corporate taxes, local taxes, and individual taxes.  The DOUBLE taxation of corporations and shareholders is ridiculous.  All these tax laws do is make companies move operations and jobs to countries that have fair tax laws unlike the USA and much of western Europe.

I am not defending Apple, on the contrary, I hope they get burned by the EU with a few billion dollars in fines. Read my post again - was referring to people on this forum and others alike that always jump to defend a corporation, which is DUMB.
OT: How's that banishment going? Share price is not even close to $150

At least I wasn't the only one who thought the thing was a boring Apple PR piece: http://qz.com/578585/every-missed-opportunity-during-the-apple-puff-piece-on-60-minutes/

As for the tax piece, I only have this to say: if a country taxes corporations considerably less than its people, then it's a tax heaven. Ireland does that. So does the Netherlands and other places. In the Netherlands (where I lived and worked) companies that cut deals with the government there to have a PO Box company there (literally, just a PO Box -- like Apple and Facebook do) pay less than 10% tax (usually about 7%). Meanwhile, Dutch residents pay up to 52% tax (yes, you're reading that right). No wonder Europeans are pissed off at these deals and the EU Parliament and Commission are investigating, when the Europeans, and not the corporations that generated these crises are the ones paying for bailouts and failures of their governments to regulate into place these transborder "digital age" and financial services goliaths.

And if you're defending these practices because they have to protect the interest of their shareholders and they paid the legal tax rate, then you're just a tool to them, because none of these companies care about you, they only care about your money. Period. Why people care so much and jump to defend these companies is beyond me. Probably, secretly, you think Apple loves you. They don't. You're just a dollar sign to them. Stop being a tool. Stop having feelings for these companies, you will be disappointed when you find out what you really are to them.