spice-boy

GeorgeBMac said:

spice-boy said:

GeorgeBMac said:

spice-boy said:

lkrupp said:

spice-boy said:

lkrupp said:

spice-boy said:

GeorgeBMac said:

spice-boy said:

apple ][ said:

spice-boy said:

Yes, jobs that pay above minimum wage is what built the middle class, 40 years ago we paid what things actually cost to make without using slave labor. 

There is no slave labor. That would be false.

The Chinese workers make a decent wage.

And if anybody truly believes that Apple uses slave labor and those same people go around making slanderous, false and dumb claims, why in the world would they continue to use any Apple products or even come to an Apple forum?

These people obviously have zero principles in addition to having a very loose relationship with the truth and facts.

Please watch the documentary "American Factory" don't worry it almost no subtitles. You should educate yourself to the differences to what American workers have compared to their direct counterparts in the same company's factory in China. I don't expect an apology from you but educating you would be my reward. 

Perhaps the reasons you site are the same reasons American industry started becoming Asian industry 50 years ago.

100+ years ago America became the industrial center of the world by being the best and the cheapest.   Now that title belongs to Asia -- and mostly to China.  When and only when we can reclaim being the best and the cheapest will industry be returning here.

The type of industry you mentioned will never come back to the USA. Here's an example, I walked by a store on lower 5th Ave here in NYC, men's jeans were $15 a pair. When I entered the 7th grade in 1970 I recall buying a pair of pants in my small hometown's Main Street those pants were $15, Forty some years ago we bought things made by union workers, people I knew parent's were union workers, we all had what we needed to get by and be happy. Today consuming is non stop, the price of clothes, and other manufactured things are way below where they should be to encourage more consumption. The way this is done is to keep labor cost as low as possible and that is only possible in countries which are controlled by dictatorships like China. Every time you buy an Apple product a dictator gets his wings. 

So can we assume you neither own nor use any Apple products? If you do, why? If not, why are you here? Very simple questions but I'm thinking you won't answer them. Or are you just a hypocrite who doesn't put their pocketbook where their ideology is?

First Mac was the 6100 Power Mac, bought new in I believe 94'. Most recent purchase, Apple Watch white ceramic series 5, 2019 iMac 3.7 ghz, owned various iPads and the original iPhone bought on launch day at the Soho Store in NYC. in 2007. Never owned a PC, or non Apple cell phone. I got my employer in the 90's to switch from PC's to Macs. Unlike so many of you I do not defend Apple's missteps and am openly critical of bad products and software because they are all a bunch of grownups who make tons of money and can handle it. I have also introduced many friends to Apple over the years including those "beleaguered years". 
I am openly politically progressive and would be a perfect fit with most people who run Apple. I also like to argue with people with libertarian ideas who I consider selfish, only concerned about money and self wealth. Proud New Yorker who speaks his mind and has super low tolerance for bullshit artist such as that low class street thug from Queens who scammed this country's country bumpkins into electing him as President. Any other questions?

So you don't mind a dictator getting his wings when you buy Apple products, or Chinese made clothing, or Chinese made appliances? Would you mind paying double for your Apple products if they were truly made in America by a unionized workforce? See, that's the trouble I have with your kind of attitude. You rage against capitalism for its so-called exploitation of workers yet you continue to participate in the very evil you rage against. Where's the line you won't cross? The arbitrary line between the rich and the middle class has been set at $250,000.00 by liberal politicians. If you make more than $250,000.00/yr you are part of the problem and you need to have your wealth confiscated and redistributed.

...

If you don't think that Chinese workers are not exploited you are being naive. Check out the documentary "American Factory" to understand the work "culture" differences between us and them. Then tell me that 72 hour work weeks should be acceptable for anyone. 

....

There is, somewhere, a happy medium.

In the 70's we had unskilled laborers in a steel mill making $70K (in 1970's $!) with 13 weeks vacation, guaranteed job security and cadillac level healthcare and pensions.  And, that was one of the contributing factors to losing our steel industry to Japan.  (It wasn't the only factor, both management & government contributed as well.  But it was a major one.)

Conversely, 70 years before that workers in the exact same physical mill were working 12 hour days 6 and 7 days a week at subsistence wages, no benefits and in highly dangerous, even deadly conditions.

Both extremes are wrong.
Globalization is today widely criticized.  But it does appear to be the great leveler because ultimately over the long run, like nature, the free market is always in charge.

My home town was the largest textile city in the world 120 years ago. Children lost limbs in the weaving machines, my grandmother told me many years ago when she was a child the city's river changed color each day depending which color dye was used by the factories. By the 1950's textile companies started moving to southern states in the USA where people were even less educated and would work for even less money. By the time I was a teenager the empty century old mills were being demolished I knew I had to leave since there was no way to make a living wage if I remained. I can't speak of the steel industry but I assume competition was their undoing when war demolished Japan rebuilt its steel industry with more modern and efficient factories it gave the US some serious competition. Blaming workers wages on killing the industry is standard excuse for company owners. Globalization is the same formula but spread over continents rather than cities, states or regions within one country. Manufacturing jobs will continue to grow where modern factories are being built and supplied by a non-union, and with little options population. 

Yeh, that was the main excuse -- along with "We taught them how to do it" or "They stole the technology".

The truth is that it was a team effort.
To address your point:  the mills were a hundred years old using hundred year old technology.   Instead of investing in keeping them current they were wasting the money paying exorbitant wages and the rest went to exorbitant dividends to the stockholders (which is why I'm so opposed to Apple doing the same).

Another factor, as I mentioned were unskilled labor making exorbitant wages and benefits because their unions, while very much needed 100 years ago, had gained too much power.   Every time they shut down a mill it lost more customers to Japan.

Another factor was bad management.  Not only did they fail to invest their enormous profits to modernize the mills, but they stopped fighting the unions -- partly because every time the unions got a raise so did they.  (and #MeToo!)

And finally, the EPA may have put the final nail in the coffin.   At the time the rivers were black and slimy with polution.  Nothing but some cat fish could live in them.  And near the plants the air was literally almost unbreathable -- it smelled like an old man fart.  But, when Pittsburghers saw the smoke belching from the stacks they would say:  "Those are good paying jobs!"

But basically, Japan won because of hubris.   We thought NOBODY could out compete US.  We thought we were unbeatable.  And, we got fat, lazy and sloppy while Japan was lean, hungry, smart and hard working.  Unfortunately, I don't think we learned that lesson because today we are using the same excuses to blame China ("they stole it", etc., etc., etc....) while chanting USA!  USA!   USA!

SpamSandwich said:

eightzero said:

Yes, thoughts and prayers going out to those profits that are most at risk during this difficult time.

Why are you here?

apple ][ said:

spice-boy said:

Yes, jobs that pay above minimum wage is what built the middle class, 40 years ago we paid what things actually cost to make without using slave labor. 

There is no slave labor. That would be false.

The Chinese workers make a decent wage.

And if anybody truly believes that Apple uses slave labor and those same people go around making slanderous, false and dumb claims, why in the world would they continue to use any Apple products or even come to an Apple forum?

These people obviously have zero principles in addition to having a very loose relationship with the truth and facts.