bshank

crowley said:

bshank said:

crowley said:

bshank said:

crowley said:

bshank said:

crowley said:

bshank said:

crowley said:

bshank said:

crowley said:

mjtomlin said:

crowley said:

Beats said:

They want full access to Apples developments? WTF?!

No one is entitled to anyone's technology.

CheeseFreeze said:

The App Store is hugely anti-competitive. 

A 30% cut is ridiculous in 2020, and their ability to push their own software and reject others is also a clear example of that behavior, including the fact you can’t change your default email client, music software, navigation software, etc. Being a ‘third party’ always is second to ‘first party’ Apple. 

What does 2020 have to do with anything? Are you one of those who say "it's [current year], people can do what they want!!" and update the year every year with the same message?

georgie01 said:

It really gets tiring to see iOS developers complain about Apple, seeming to show no awareness that if it weren’t for Apple’s App Store many of them wouldn’t even have jobs in the first place (no resources to start a company and to sell their work). We so quickly become entitled, like we deserve the good things we have, even when they come from someone else.

THIS.

And if it weren't for third party developers creating apps, the iPhone quite possibly wouldn't have nearly been as successful.  It flows both ways.  If Apple want the benefits of a rich app ecosystem then they should play fair with developers.  If Apple really are ripping off Tile's idea and using their platform owner position as leverage over a developer in their ecosystem, then where's your criticism of their entitlement? 

Apple didn't build their technology in a sealed off  bunker, they stood on the shoulders of other giants.  That's fine, but now they're a giant, and it seem liike all too often they're flicking off and stomping on the newcomers who are trying to stand on their shoulders just a little bit.

No. That argument only holds water if the iPhone became popular while Apple did not charge the 30% fee for apps. The fact is, that 30% has always been in place and both the iPhone and App Store became hugely successful despite that. Apple has and does play fair with developers, but they cannot play fair with EVERYONE. There will be some that lose out due to the natural evolution of the platform, which has to compete with other platforms.

Furthermore, it is Apple's hardware, and iOS only runs on Apple's hardware and always has. Developers know this. And they know Apple will always have some kind of advantage because they create the whole widget.

I don't really know what the 30% cut is supposed to do with this, the OP that brought that up appears to just be ranting, and I don't agree with his point.

The problem here is that Apple are providing both a product and a platform.  The two not particularly compatible and create a conflict of interest.  I think the greater value of iOS is as a platform, I use non-Apple apps far more than I use Apple apps, so I wish Apple would stop pulling this shit.

Apple spent billions of dollars building the infrastructure that makes the App Store work, provide developers the tools they need to make their apps work well on the devices, and continues to hire employees who constantly monitor the App Store for apps that violate guidelines and protects the privacy of Apple customers. The App Store is one of many different stores that exist in the world. If you don’t like Apple’s App Store then there are third party ways to make other apps work on iPhone or you can go to Android. I will never understand the lame arguments of people who want everything for free despite the fact that a competent steward like Apple makes the convenience we all enjoy possible. If this COVID-19 hasn’t made clear that there are companies and bureaucracies that are managed well and have responsibly saved resources and capital to endure a crisis and some that are not and will fail because of mismanagement then I am at a loss. Just because Apple comes up with a good idea does not mean it should be forced to become a public service or utility. If you feel so strongly you, Elizabeth Warren, and Margarethe Vestager can take over the App Store and do all the work that Apple does for free for all of us and we’ll see how good a job you can do (and how long you will last). 

Very little of that has anything to do with this complaint.  Apple's general competence doesn't mean they can't be criticised.  And just because I can't run Apple as well as Tim Cook doesn't mean I shouldn't feel able to take issue with some of Apple's policies.

It appears you have a lot more than just an issue with some of Apple’s policies. You complain up and down about things Apple does, But have zero reasonable alternative solution to whatever you complain about other than implying Apple needs to pay more or let grifters ride for free.

I don't complain about Apple all that much, I like most of what they do.  But I don't think Tile are grifters.  Nor are Amazon or other content providers who baulk at the 30% fee for content that Apple isn't even hosting.  Apple's products are made better by a rich ecosystem of apps, content, and compatible hardware, and yet the power balance is very much in Apple's favour, which is why when their stance is that of a bully or a "like it or lump it" people rightly get annoyed.  I think Apple could be better.

Not sure it’s a balance of power, but that Apple created this entire market for device makers like Tile and developers and all the accessory makers. Tile aren’t grifters now, but if they get what they want (which is for Apple not allowed to make a similar product while Tile refuses to or does not have the talent to innovate) they will be grifting. calling Apple a bully sure seems to convey more contempt than liking what they do. Where were most of these companies before 2008? Non existent or flailing. Apple has created markets for many companies and the markets they’ve created through their products have created companies. Unfortunately in like there are winners and losers. Tile Should lose if all they can do is scream “it’s not fair”. Apple already said they will provide the Always Allow feature Tile wants back so I’m really not sure what you’re referencing that is bully-like, but I’m confident you’ll find a way to spin it despite Apple agreeing to change their code and rules again for a company. 

If you’re going to pursue this as a personal grievance and attempt to pre-dismiss any counterpoint I may make with prejudice then there’s really no point in continuing.  I have no interest in that kind of bad faith debate, be better than that.

Your choice of words. Whatever man. You’re correct. The transcript is perfect. You never used the word bully or any other word that conveyed contempt. You were perfect.

What?  I'm talking about you claiming I'll "spin it". Fuck off with that, and the sarcasm while you're at it.  I'm quite happy to have a conversation about Apple's custodianship of the platform and the store, but if you're going to go out of your way to demean and insult then that's not a conversation, it's internet bullshit.  Grow up.

Geez! Again, excuse the hell out of me for reading your actual words to try to understand your perspective.  

If you're claiming that I'll "spin it" then I don't think you're trying in good faith.  That's it.  End of.  Not worth either of our time.

crowley said:

bshank said:

crowley said:

bshank said:

crowley said:

bshank said:

crowley said:

bshank said:

crowley said:

mjtomlin said:

crowley said:

Beats said:

They want full access to Apples developments? WTF?!

No one is entitled to anyone's technology.

CheeseFreeze said:

The App Store is hugely anti-competitive. 

A 30% cut is ridiculous in 2020, and their ability to push their own software and reject others is also a clear example of that behavior, including the fact you can’t change your default email client, music software, navigation software, etc. Being a ‘third party’ always is second to ‘first party’ Apple. 

What does 2020 have to do with anything? Are you one of those who say "it's [current year], people can do what they want!!" and update the year every year with the same message?

georgie01 said:

It really gets tiring to see iOS developers complain about Apple, seeming to show no awareness that if it weren’t for Apple’s App Store many of them wouldn’t even have jobs in the first place (no resources to start a company and to sell their work). We so quickly become entitled, like we deserve the good things we have, even when they come from someone else.

THIS.

And if it weren't for third party developers creating apps, the iPhone quite possibly wouldn't have nearly been as successful.  It flows both ways.  If Apple want the benefits of a rich app ecosystem then they should play fair with developers.  If Apple really are ripping off Tile's idea and using their platform owner position as leverage over a developer in their ecosystem, then where's your criticism of their entitlement? 

Apple didn't build their technology in a sealed off  bunker, they stood on the shoulders of other giants.  That's fine, but now they're a giant, and it seem liike all too often they're flicking off and stomping on the newcomers who are trying to stand on their shoulders just a little bit.

No. That argument only holds water if the iPhone became popular while Apple did not charge the 30% fee for apps. The fact is, that 30% has always been in place and both the iPhone and App Store became hugely successful despite that. Apple has and does play fair with developers, but they cannot play fair with EVERYONE. There will be some that lose out due to the natural evolution of the platform, which has to compete with other platforms.

Furthermore, it is Apple's hardware, and iOS only runs on Apple's hardware and always has. Developers know this. And they know Apple will always have some kind of advantage because they create the whole widget.

I don't really know what the 30% cut is supposed to do with this, the OP that brought that up appears to just be ranting, and I don't agree with his point.

The problem here is that Apple are providing both a product and a platform.  The two not particularly compatible and create a conflict of interest.  I think the greater value of iOS is as a platform, I use non-Apple apps far more than I use Apple apps, so I wish Apple would stop pulling this shit.

Apple spent billions of dollars building the infrastructure that makes the App Store work, provide developers the tools they need to make their apps work well on the devices, and continues to hire employees who constantly monitor the App Store for apps that violate guidelines and protects the privacy of Apple customers. The App Store is one of many different stores that exist in the world. If you don’t like Apple’s App Store then there are third party ways to make other apps work on iPhone or you can go to Android. I will never understand the lame arguments of people who want everything for free despite the fact that a competent steward like Apple makes the convenience we all enjoy possible. If this COVID-19 hasn’t made clear that there are companies and bureaucracies that are managed well and have responsibly saved resources and capital to endure a crisis and some that are not and will fail because of mismanagement then I am at a loss. Just because Apple comes up with a good idea does not mean it should be forced to become a public service or utility. If you feel so strongly you, Elizabeth Warren, and Margarethe Vestager can take over the App Store and do all the work that Apple does for free for all of us and we’ll see how good a job you can do (and how long you will last). 

Very little of that has anything to do with this complaint.  Apple's general competence doesn't mean they can't be criticised.  And just because I can't run Apple as well as Tim Cook doesn't mean I shouldn't feel able to take issue with some of Apple's policies.

It appears you have a lot more than just an issue with some of Apple’s policies. You complain up and down about things Apple does, But have zero reasonable alternative solution to whatever you complain about other than implying Apple needs to pay more or let grifters ride for free.

I don't complain about Apple all that much, I like most of what they do.  But I don't think Tile are grifters.  Nor are Amazon or other content providers who baulk at the 30% fee for content that Apple isn't even hosting.  Apple's products are made better by a rich ecosystem of apps, content, and compatible hardware, and yet the power balance is very much in Apple's favour, which is why when their stance is that of a bully or a "like it or lump it" people rightly get annoyed.  I think Apple could be better.

Not sure it’s a balance of power, but that Apple created this entire market for device makers like Tile and developers and all the accessory makers. Tile aren’t grifters now, but if they get what they want (which is for Apple not allowed to make a similar product while Tile refuses to or does not have the talent to innovate) they will be grifting. calling Apple a bully sure seems to convey more contempt than liking what they do. Where were most of these companies before 2008? Non existent or flailing. Apple has created markets for many companies and the markets they’ve created through their products have created companies. Unfortunately in like there are winners and losers. Tile Should lose if all they can do is scream “it’s not fair”. Apple already said they will provide the Always Allow feature Tile wants back so I’m really not sure what you’re referencing that is bully-like, but I’m confident you’ll find a way to spin it despite Apple agreeing to change their code and rules again for a company. 

If you’re going to pursue this as a personal grievance and attempt to pre-dismiss any counterpoint I may make with prejudice then there’s really no point in continuing.  I have no interest in that kind of bad faith debate, be better than that.

Your choice of words. Whatever man. You’re correct. The transcript is perfect. You never used the word bully or any other word that conveyed contempt. You were perfect.

What?  I'm talking about you claiming I'll "spin it". Fuck off with that, and the sarcasm while you're at it.  I'm quite happy to have a conversation about Apple's custodianship of the platform and the store, but if you're going to go out of your way to demean and insult then that's not a conversation, it's internet bullshit.  Grow up.

crowley said:

bshank said:

crowley said:

bshank said:

crowley said:

bshank said:

crowley said:

mjtomlin said:

crowley said:

Beats said:

They want full access to Apples developments? WTF?!

No one is entitled to anyone's technology.

CheeseFreeze said:

The App Store is hugely anti-competitive. 

A 30% cut is ridiculous in 2020, and their ability to push their own software and reject others is also a clear example of that behavior, including the fact you can’t change your default email client, music software, navigation software, etc. Being a ‘third party’ always is second to ‘first party’ Apple. 

What does 2020 have to do with anything? Are you one of those who say "it's [current year], people can do what they want!!" and update the year every year with the same message?

georgie01 said:

It really gets tiring to see iOS developers complain about Apple, seeming to show no awareness that if it weren’t for Apple’s App Store many of them wouldn’t even have jobs in the first place (no resources to start a company and to sell their work). We so quickly become entitled, like we deserve the good things we have, even when they come from someone else.

THIS.

And if it weren't for third party developers creating apps, the iPhone quite possibly wouldn't have nearly been as successful.  It flows both ways.  If Apple want the benefits of a rich app ecosystem then they should play fair with developers.  If Apple really are ripping off Tile's idea and using their platform owner position as leverage over a developer in their ecosystem, then where's your criticism of their entitlement? 

Apple didn't build their technology in a sealed off  bunker, they stood on the shoulders of other giants.  That's fine, but now they're a giant, and it seem liike all too often they're flicking off and stomping on the newcomers who are trying to stand on their shoulders just a little bit.

No. That argument only holds water if the iPhone became popular while Apple did not charge the 30% fee for apps. The fact is, that 30% has always been in place and both the iPhone and App Store became hugely successful despite that. Apple has and does play fair with developers, but they cannot play fair with EVERYONE. There will be some that lose out due to the natural evolution of the platform, which has to compete with other platforms.

Furthermore, it is Apple's hardware, and iOS only runs on Apple's hardware and always has. Developers know this. And they know Apple will always have some kind of advantage because they create the whole widget.

I don't really know what the 30% cut is supposed to do with this, the OP that brought that up appears to just be ranting, and I don't agree with his point.

The problem here is that Apple are providing both a product and a platform.  The two not particularly compatible and create a conflict of interest.  I think the greater value of iOS is as a platform, I use non-Apple apps far more than I use Apple apps, so I wish Apple would stop pulling this shit.

Apple spent billions of dollars building the infrastructure that makes the App Store work, provide developers the tools they need to make their apps work well on the devices, and continues to hire employees who constantly monitor the App Store for apps that violate guidelines and protects the privacy of Apple customers. The App Store is one of many different stores that exist in the world. If you don’t like Apple’s App Store then there are third party ways to make other apps work on iPhone or you can go to Android. I will never understand the lame arguments of people who want everything for free despite the fact that a competent steward like Apple makes the convenience we all enjoy possible. If this COVID-19 hasn’t made clear that there are companies and bureaucracies that are managed well and have responsibly saved resources and capital to endure a crisis and some that are not and will fail because of mismanagement then I am at a loss. Just because Apple comes up with a good idea does not mean it should be forced to become a public service or utility. If you feel so strongly you, Elizabeth Warren, and Margarethe Vestager can take over the App Store and do all the work that Apple does for free for all of us and we’ll see how good a job you can do (and how long you will last). 

Very little of that has anything to do with this complaint.  Apple's general competence doesn't mean they can't be criticised.  And just because I can't run Apple as well as Tim Cook doesn't mean I shouldn't feel able to take issue with some of Apple's policies.

It appears you have a lot more than just an issue with some of Apple’s policies. You complain up and down about things Apple does, But have zero reasonable alternative solution to whatever you complain about other than implying Apple needs to pay more or let grifters ride for free.

I don't complain about Apple all that much, I like most of what they do.  But I don't think Tile are grifters.  Nor are Amazon or other content providers who baulk at the 30% fee for content that Apple isn't even hosting.  Apple's products are made better by a rich ecosystem of apps, content, and compatible hardware, and yet the power balance is very much in Apple's favour, which is why when their stance is that of a bully or a "like it or lump it" people rightly get annoyed.  I think Apple could be better.

Not sure it’s a balance of power, but that Apple created this entire market for device makers like Tile and developers and all the accessory makers. Tile aren’t grifters now, but if they get what they want (which is for Apple not allowed to make a similar product while Tile refuses to or does not have the talent to innovate) they will be grifting. calling Apple a bully sure seems to convey more contempt than liking what they do. Where were most of these companies before 2008? Non existent or flailing. Apple has created markets for many companies and the markets they’ve created through their products have created companies. Unfortunately in like there are winners and losers. Tile Should lose if all they can do is scream “it’s not fair”. Apple already said they will provide the Always Allow feature Tile wants back so I’m really not sure what you’re referencing that is bully-like, but I’m confident you’ll find a way to spin it despite Apple agreeing to change their code and rules again for a company. 

If you’re going to pursue this as a personal grievance and attempt to pre-dismiss any counterpoint I may make with prejudice then there’s really no point in continuing.  I have no interest in that kind of bad faith debate, be better than that.

crowley said:

bshank said:

crowley said:

bshank said:

crowley said:

mjtomlin said:

crowley said:

Beats said:

They want full access to Apples developments? WTF?!

No one is entitled to anyone's technology.

CheeseFreeze said:

The App Store is hugely anti-competitive. 

A 30% cut is ridiculous in 2020, and their ability to push their own software and reject others is also a clear example of that behavior, including the fact you can’t change your default email client, music software, navigation software, etc. Being a ‘third party’ always is second to ‘first party’ Apple. 

What does 2020 have to do with anything? Are you one of those who say "it's [current year], people can do what they want!!" and update the year every year with the same message?

georgie01 said:

It really gets tiring to see iOS developers complain about Apple, seeming to show no awareness that if it weren’t for Apple’s App Store many of them wouldn’t even have jobs in the first place (no resources to start a company and to sell their work). We so quickly become entitled, like we deserve the good things we have, even when they come from someone else.

THIS.

And if it weren't for third party developers creating apps, the iPhone quite possibly wouldn't have nearly been as successful.  It flows both ways.  If Apple want the benefits of a rich app ecosystem then they should play fair with developers.  If Apple really are ripping off Tile's idea and using their platform owner position as leverage over a developer in their ecosystem, then where's your criticism of their entitlement? 

Apple didn't build their technology in a sealed off  bunker, they stood on the shoulders of other giants.  That's fine, but now they're a giant, and it seem liike all too often they're flicking off and stomping on the newcomers who are trying to stand on their shoulders just a little bit.

No. That argument only holds water if the iPhone became popular while Apple did not charge the 30% fee for apps. The fact is, that 30% has always been in place and both the iPhone and App Store became hugely successful despite that. Apple has and does play fair with developers, but they cannot play fair with EVERYONE. There will be some that lose out due to the natural evolution of the platform, which has to compete with other platforms.

Furthermore, it is Apple's hardware, and iOS only runs on Apple's hardware and always has. Developers know this. And they know Apple will always have some kind of advantage because they create the whole widget.

I don't really know what the 30% cut is supposed to do with this, the OP that brought that up appears to just be ranting, and I don't agree with his point.

The problem here is that Apple are providing both a product and a platform.  The two not particularly compatible and create a conflict of interest.  I think the greater value of iOS is as a platform, I use non-Apple apps far more than I use Apple apps, so I wish Apple would stop pulling this shit.

Apple spent billions of dollars building the infrastructure that makes the App Store work, provide developers the tools they need to make their apps work well on the devices, and continues to hire employees who constantly monitor the App Store for apps that violate guidelines and protects the privacy of Apple customers. The App Store is one of many different stores that exist in the world. If you don’t like Apple’s App Store then there are third party ways to make other apps work on iPhone or you can go to Android. I will never understand the lame arguments of people who want everything for free despite the fact that a competent steward like Apple makes the convenience we all enjoy possible. If this COVID-19 hasn’t made clear that there are companies and bureaucracies that are managed well and have responsibly saved resources and capital to endure a crisis and some that are not and will fail because of mismanagement then I am at a loss. Just because Apple comes up with a good idea does not mean it should be forced to become a public service or utility. If you feel so strongly you, Elizabeth Warren, and Margarethe Vestager can take over the App Store and do all the work that Apple does for free for all of us and we’ll see how good a job you can do (and how long you will last). 

Very little of that has anything to do with this complaint.  Apple's general competence doesn't mean they can't be criticised.  And just because I can't run Apple as well as Tim Cook doesn't mean I shouldn't feel able to take issue with some of Apple's policies.

It appears you have a lot more than just an issue with some of Apple’s policies. You complain up and down about things Apple does, But have zero reasonable alternative solution to whatever you complain about other than implying Apple needs to pay more or let grifters ride for free.

I don't complain about Apple all that much, I like most of what they do.  But I don't think Tile are grifters.  Nor are Amazon or other content providers who baulk at the 30% fee for content that Apple isn't even hosting.  Apple's products are made better by a rich ecosystem of apps, content, and compatible hardware, and yet the power balance is very much in Apple's favour, which is why when their stance is that of a bully or a "like it or lump it" people rightly get annoyed.  I think Apple could be better.

crowley said:

bshank said:

crowley said:

mjtomlin said:

crowley said:

Beats said:

They want full access to Apples developments? WTF?!

No one is entitled to anyone's technology.

CheeseFreeze said:

The App Store is hugely anti-competitive. 

A 30% cut is ridiculous in 2020, and their ability to push their own software and reject others is also a clear example of that behavior, including the fact you can’t change your default email client, music software, navigation software, etc. Being a ‘third party’ always is second to ‘first party’ Apple. 

What does 2020 have to do with anything? Are you one of those who say "it's [current year], people can do what they want!!" and update the year every year with the same message?

georgie01 said:

It really gets tiring to see iOS developers complain about Apple, seeming to show no awareness that if it weren’t for Apple’s App Store many of them wouldn’t even have jobs in the first place (no resources to start a company and to sell their work). We so quickly become entitled, like we deserve the good things we have, even when they come from someone else.

THIS.

And if it weren't for third party developers creating apps, the iPhone quite possibly wouldn't have nearly been as successful.  It flows both ways.  If Apple want the benefits of a rich app ecosystem then they should play fair with developers.  If Apple really are ripping off Tile's idea and using their platform owner position as leverage over a developer in their ecosystem, then where's your criticism of their entitlement? 

Apple didn't build their technology in a sealed off  bunker, they stood on the shoulders of other giants.  That's fine, but now they're a giant, and it seem liike all too often they're flicking off and stomping on the newcomers who are trying to stand on their shoulders just a little bit.

No. That argument only holds water if the iPhone became popular while Apple did not charge the 30% fee for apps. The fact is, that 30% has always been in place and both the iPhone and App Store became hugely successful despite that. Apple has and does play fair with developers, but they cannot play fair with EVERYONE. There will be some that lose out due to the natural evolution of the platform, which has to compete with other platforms.

Furthermore, it is Apple's hardware, and iOS only runs on Apple's hardware and always has. Developers know this. And they know Apple will always have some kind of advantage because they create the whole widget.

I don't really know what the 30% cut is supposed to do with this, the OP that brought that up appears to just be ranting, and I don't agree with his point.

The problem here is that Apple are providing both a product and a platform.  The two not particularly compatible and create a conflict of interest.  I think the greater value of iOS is as a platform, I use non-Apple apps far more than I use Apple apps, so I wish Apple would stop pulling this shit.

Apple spent billions of dollars building the infrastructure that makes the App Store work, provide developers the tools they need to make their apps work well on the devices, and continues to hire employees who constantly monitor the App Store for apps that violate guidelines and protects the privacy of Apple customers. The App Store is one of many different stores that exist in the world. If you don’t like Apple’s App Store then there are third party ways to make other apps work on iPhone or you can go to Android. I will never understand the lame arguments of people who want everything for free despite the fact that a competent steward like Apple makes the convenience we all enjoy possible. If this COVID-19 hasn’t made clear that there are companies and bureaucracies that are managed well and have responsibly saved resources and capital to endure a crisis and some that are not and will fail because of mismanagement then I am at a loss. Just because Apple comes up with a good idea does not mean it should be forced to become a public service or utility. If you feel so strongly you, Elizabeth Warren, and Margarethe Vestager can take over the App Store and do all the work that Apple does for free for all of us and we’ll see how good a job you can do (and how long you will last). 

Very little of that has anything to do with this complaint.  Apple's general competence doesn't mean they can't be criticised.  And just because I can't run Apple as well as Tim Cook doesn't mean I shouldn't feel able to take issue with some of Apple's policies.