svanstrom

avon b7 said:

svanstrom said:

avon b7 said:

I can't see this as anything other than an abuse of government powers.

It used to be that sovereign nations were aware of limitations on the sale of US products to third parties before purchase.

I think that's a reasonable approach to applying restrictions but changing the rules at short notice for doubtful reasons and in the concealed name of protectionism but claiming national security concerns AFTER the sale, well that can only end badly because countries and companies will only see the US as an unreliable entity willing to do anything to get its way. In that scenario, the US will find itself in isolation as the world shuns its products. 

We've seen this with Huawei and now with Tik Tok. If WeChat is affected too, it won't be long before Tim Cook is dining at the White House to try and drive a message into Trump's head. 

Get off that pedestal on that horse of yours; even the worst of what that racist orange might do is still less than what Winnie Xi has been doing all the time with that great firewall of his.

People can't react before they react, so any argument of yours along the lines of "but it was ok yesterday" is pretty much null and moot.

I think you missed the point. 

China can do what it likes with its laws over its own sovereign territory. Just like the US. 

However, the US has now moved to an extraterritorial mode and is attempting to apply 'sanctions' on its opponents by restricting what companies in sovereign nations can do with their products, simply because even a small part of them use US technology.

That will not end well for the US because it makes itself an unreliable partner. The worst kind in fact. 

It has set a precedent. The world is taking notice (not least China!) and will look for more reliable partners. 

No one is going to invest billions in a product only to see potential sales wiped out simply because somewhere along the line some tiny percentage of US technology was used. 

That's even without getting into the efforts of the US to stop ASML (no US tech incolced) from doing business with Chinese operations. That is far, far worse. 

avon b7 said:

I can't see this as anything other than an abuse of government powers.

It used to be that sovereign nations were aware of limitations on the sale of US products to third parties before purchase.

I think that's a reasonable approach to applying restrictions but changing the rules at short notice for doubtful reasons and in the concealed name of protectionism but claiming national security concerns AFTER the sale, well that can only end badly because countries and companies will only see the US as an unreliable entity willing to do anything to get its way. In that scenario, the US will find itself in isolation as the world shuns its products. 

We've seen this with Huawei and now with Tik Tok. If WeChat is affected too, it won't be long before Tim Cook is dining at the White House to try and drive a message into Trump's head. 

avon b7 said:

svanstrom said:

avon b7 said:

svanstrom said:

avon b7 said:

SpamSandwich said:

tjwolf said:

razorpit said:

p-dog said:

One word: “gaslighting”!

Well, ok, maybe a couple more: “childish vengeance” - especially against TikTok K-Poppers for spoiling the Toddler-in-Chief’s pro-COVID Tulsa rally.

LOL, no. More like TikTok harvesting data from US citizens, but nice try.

Of course that's what the Administrations *says*.  Just as with Huawei, there's are accusations of wrong-doing - in order to support its actions - without any proof that such wrongdoing actually took place.  To this day, there has been no evidence presented that Huawei snooped on its networks, much less send such information back to China.  Sadly, with the POTUS lying publicly on a daily basis, *nothing* this Administration says can be trusted.

Before someone suggests that there *is* evidence because the UK & Australia have agreed with the US' assessment, I will point out that both countries are economically and ideologically tied to the US - countries that are not beholden to the US, like Germany, have found no evidence at all.  Heck, even the UK said there was no evidence until the US had a few more words with them and they 'folded'.

Not saying TikTok or WeChat or even Huawei are innocent, but what is supposed to separate the US from countries like China is that here, everyone is innocent until proven guilty.  Until Trump came along, "well they're doing it..." wasn't a good enough reason for us to stoop to the same level.

Germany is currently connected at the hip to Russia for their energy consumption and unless things have changed, they use Huawei switching equipment. Germany is screwed.

https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/germanys-dependence-imported-fossil-fuels

All of Europe is dependent on Russian gas. There are plans to reduce that dependency but today it is a real factor.

Huawei is a different story. There is no dependency on Huawei and alternatives exist but they are less technologically advanced and more expensive to implement and maintain. 

All data from Huawei users is stored in Europe and managed by a Huawei subsidiary based in Ireland. Huawei has 15 high security datacenters within Europe for storage of EU user data. There is a Huawei cybersecurity lab in Bonn where the German government can look deep into the inner workings of Huawei ICT equipment. Huawei has a spotless record in ICT security without a single major breach in over 30 years in Europe. Zero evidence of spying and many security experts have said back doors simply are not present. The security experts at the major carrier networks have also said the spying/security/backdoor claims are unfounded. 

Geopolitically speaking, Germany has huge economic interests in China.

Then there are the China hawks who just fear China overtaking the US in key areas and who simply want to stop them any way they can. Often resulting in questionable actions like trying to destroy Huawei or any emerging Chinese influence (such as the actions detailed in this article).

When it comes to China the new normal is:

"there's an executive order for that" 

Trump is in for a nasty wake up call. 

This is a classic example of how lost the Trump administration is. 

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2020/05/04/world/mike-pompeo-significant-evidence-coronavirus-china-lab-us/

Lots of talk on the public stage but it doesn't even matter if its contradictory - almost in the same breath - as long as the overriding message gets conveyed. Covid-19, 5G, national security, TiK ToK, WeChat... Whatever, as long as it is anti China in some way. 

The rest if the world sees this and is stupefied.

US foreign policy had derailed itself. 

Poor China with all the people being anti them even though they are such an exemplary role model of treating people fairly, and respecting privacy, freedom of speech etc… or… well… let's get some people from Taiwan, Hong Kong, Tibet, Macau, Xinjiang etc into this discussion about how unfairly treated the trustworthy the CCP is.

You're mixing a lot of things up there. 

It's not 'poor China'. They have plenty of stuff that could be frowned upon. So does the US. 

That is not the point here. 

The point is the 'justification', lack of any real evidence and the 'if you can't dominate the system, wreck it' attitude. 

Threats, bullying, consequences, strong arming... 

There are plenty of things that you logically speaking can't prove, that still would fall under common sense; like how you can't prove that it's going to rain, but if you leave your home and see clouds looking a certain way, then you bring an umbrella.

That's the situation with China today. The CCP are acting very aggressively, have even very recently been caught spying, and have very complete and discreet control of any Chinese company if they so wish.

That can't be ignored, and just like you don't leave your umbrella if it looks like rain, you don't leave your networks/people unprotected just because the communist party bully hasn't been caught doing his worst yet.

Edit: Removed non-functioning emojis.

Everybody spies. On everybody else. 

The problem with your argument (from a western perspective) is that it isn't common sense at all. 

If it were, evidence would be required to justify the action.

There is none they can present so they fall back onto magical executive orders tailored to their specific needs. 

This particular case looks like it will be challenged in the courts.

This just part of the wider package of measures to thwart China's rise. Very few people doubt that IMO. 

avon b7 said:

svanstrom said:

avon b7 said:

SpamSandwich said:

tjwolf said:

razorpit said:

p-dog said:

One word: “gaslighting”!

Well, ok, maybe a couple more: “childish vengeance” - especially against TikTok K-Poppers for spoiling the Toddler-in-Chief’s pro-COVID Tulsa rally.

LOL, no. More like TikTok harvesting data from US citizens, but nice try.

Of course that's what the Administrations *says*.  Just as with Huawei, there's are accusations of wrong-doing - in order to support its actions - without any proof that such wrongdoing actually took place.  To this day, there has been no evidence presented that Huawei snooped on its networks, much less send such information back to China.  Sadly, with the POTUS lying publicly on a daily basis, *nothing* this Administration says can be trusted.

Before someone suggests that there *is* evidence because the UK & Australia have agreed with the US' assessment, I will point out that both countries are economically and ideologically tied to the US - countries that are not beholden to the US, like Germany, have found no evidence at all.  Heck, even the UK said there was no evidence until the US had a few more words with them and they 'folded'.

Not saying TikTok or WeChat or even Huawei are innocent, but what is supposed to separate the US from countries like China is that here, everyone is innocent until proven guilty.  Until Trump came along, "well they're doing it..." wasn't a good enough reason for us to stoop to the same level.

Germany is currently connected at the hip to Russia for their energy consumption and unless things have changed, they use Huawei switching equipment. Germany is screwed.

https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/germanys-dependence-imported-fossil-fuels

All of Europe is dependent on Russian gas. There are plans to reduce that dependency but today it is a real factor.

Huawei is a different story. There is no dependency on Huawei and alternatives exist but they are less technologically advanced and more expensive to implement and maintain. 

All data from Huawei users is stored in Europe and managed by a Huawei subsidiary based in Ireland. Huawei has 15 high security datacenters within Europe for storage of EU user data. There is a Huawei cybersecurity lab in Bonn where the German government can look deep into the inner workings of Huawei ICT equipment. Huawei has a spotless record in ICT security without a single major breach in over 30 years in Europe. Zero evidence of spying and many security experts have said back doors simply are not present. The security experts at the major carrier networks have also said the spying/security/backdoor claims are unfounded. 

Geopolitically speaking, Germany has huge economic interests in China.

Then there are the China hawks who just fear China overtaking the US in key areas and who simply want to stop them any way they can. Often resulting in questionable actions like trying to destroy Huawei or any emerging Chinese influence (such as the actions detailed in this article).

When it comes to China the new normal is:

"there's an executive order for that" 

Trump is in for a nasty wake up call. 

This is a classic example of how lost the Trump administration is. 

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2020/05/04/world/mike-pompeo-significant-evidence-coronavirus-china-lab-us/

Lots of talk on the public stage but it doesn't even matter if its contradictory - almost in the same breath - as long as the overriding message gets conveyed. Covid-19, 5G, national security, TiK ToK, WeChat... Whatever, as long as it is anti China in some way. 

The rest if the world sees this and is stupefied.

US foreign policy had derailed itself. 

Poor China with all the people being anti them even though they are such an exemplary role model of treating people fairly, and respecting privacy, freedom of speech etc… or… well… let's get some people from Taiwan, Hong Kong, Tibet, Macau, Xinjiang etc into this discussion about how unfairly treated the trustworthy the CCP is.

You're mixing a lot of things up there. 

It's not 'poor China'. They have plenty of stuff that could be frowned upon. So does the US. 

That is not the point here. 

The point is the 'justification', lack of any real evidence and the 'if you can't dominate the system, wreck it' attitude. 

Threats, bullying, consequences, strong arming... 

avon b7 said:

SpamSandwich said:

tjwolf said:

razorpit said:

p-dog said:

One word: “gaslighting”!

Well, ok, maybe a couple more: “childish vengeance” - especially against TikTok K-Poppers for spoiling the Toddler-in-Chief’s pro-COVID Tulsa rally.

LOL, no. More like TikTok harvesting data from US citizens, but nice try.

Of course that's what the Administrations *says*.  Just as with Huawei, there's are accusations of wrong-doing - in order to support its actions - without any proof that such wrongdoing actually took place.  To this day, there has been no evidence presented that Huawei snooped on its networks, much less send such information back to China.  Sadly, with the POTUS lying publicly on a daily basis, *nothing* this Administration says can be trusted.

Before someone suggests that there *is* evidence because the UK & Australia have agreed with the US' assessment, I will point out that both countries are economically and ideologically tied to the US - countries that are not beholden to the US, like Germany, have found no evidence at all.  Heck, even the UK said there was no evidence until the US had a few more words with them and they 'folded'.

Not saying TikTok or WeChat or even Huawei are innocent, but what is supposed to separate the US from countries like China is that here, everyone is innocent until proven guilty.  Until Trump came along, "well they're doing it..." wasn't a good enough reason for us to stoop to the same level.

Germany is currently connected at the hip to Russia for their energy consumption and unless things have changed, they use Huawei switching equipment. Germany is screwed.

https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/germanys-dependence-imported-fossil-fuels

All of Europe is dependent on Russian gas. There are plans to reduce that dependency but today it is a real factor.

Huawei is a different story. There is no dependency on Huawei and alternatives exist but they are less technologically advanced and more expensive to implement and maintain. 

All data from Huawei users is stored in Europe and managed by a Huawei subsidiary based in Ireland. Huawei has 15 high security datacenters within Europe for storage of EU user data. There is a Huawei cybersecurity lab in Bonn where the German government can look deep into the inner workings of Huawei ICT equipment. Huawei has a spotless record in ICT security without a single major breach in over 30 years in Europe. Zero evidence of spying and many security experts have said back doors simply are not present. The security experts at the major carrier networks have also said the spying/security/backdoor claims are unfounded. 

Geopolitically speaking, Germany has huge economic interests in China.

Then there are the China hawks who just fear China overtaking the US in key areas and who simply want to stop them any way they can. Often resulting in questionable actions like trying to destroy Huawei or any emerging Chinese influence (such as the actions detailed in this article).

When it comes to China the new normal is:

"there's an executive order for that" 

Trump is in for a nasty wake up call. 

This is a classic example of how lost the Trump administration is. 

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2020/05/04/world/mike-pompeo-significant-evidence-coronavirus-china-lab-us/

Lots of talk on the public stage but it doesn't even matter if its contradictory - almost in the same breath - as long as the overriding message gets conveyed. Covid-19, 5G, national security, TiK ToK, WeChat... Whatever, as long as it is anti China in some way. 

The rest if the world sees this and is stupefied.

US foreign policy had derailed itself.