Sanctum1972

chasm said:

I think I'm just going to put all the whiners on this thread on permanent "ignore." If you can't find ANYTHING positive to say at all (or even constructive criticism) on your first post about this amazing new machine, I don't need you in my life, and frankly AI will be a far better read without your relentless, boring negativity.

Ignoring the 'whiners' is not going to solve your problem in the sense of turning a deaf ear to reality. And second, those posters on AI are not part of your life and have nothing to do with it. You're on a forum, not hanging out at a sports bar rooting for a football team. And let me say that calling people 'whiners' or 'haters' doesn't make you ANY better than Trump calling the Democrats 'haters' just because he was voted as President. 

It's the wrong attitude and by putting them on ignore, you could be missing out on some valuable feedback or information. You don't just go to a debate just to put on ear plugs and have 'selective hearing' what comes through your head. This is exactly the problem with this forum and other places. 

And lastly, I'm not against the new Mac Pro. It's about effing time Apple got its act together. They got the hardware design right by going old school with the cheese grater approach BUT I do have to agree with some of the users' anger towards the bizarre pricing and set up. I'm a creative professional myself and I know that the Mac Pro is overkill for my case, however I'm acutely aware that this is more geared for the larger clientele base that has the budget for it. On the other hand, their argument on how the Mac Pro, especially how one AI Admin here posted, that it should be scaled down to be price accessible and then upgraded over time for the users' future needs and growth over the years. Trust me on this. I own an old school G4 tower stored away in my apartment and it still works, although I currently run on a mid-2010 iMac with 10 GB of RAM which gets the job done albeit somewhat slowly and I'm considering replacing it by the end of the year with either a new 4k iMac or a PC suited for 2D graphic design/digital illustration workflow. I still rely on the desktop for the heavy lifting and know better that the iPad Pro will NEVER, EVER replace a desktop. EVER. 

Unless Apple grows a pair and makes the iPad Pro 'tabloid sized' as in 11 x 17 with full scale iPad OS and external drive connections. 11 x 17 is the right size to scale for professional comic illustrators, graphic designers and such to work on 100% actual scale without the pinch and zooming. Trust me on this. The pinch and zooming is somewhat discouraged in the creative field especially when digital painting or illustrating. Jony Ive as an industrial designer should've known better than that because people in his field and other creative industries are trained to draw from their shoulders by hand. I should know. It's how one is trained that way in art school. 11 x 17 is a good size to draw widely from your shoulder in loose form. I'm not sure 12.9 is enough. 

Anyway, the new Mac Pro is impressive however I'm not discounting the skeptics either. I'm quite shocked that Nvidia was not mentioned for this machine as I wish Apple would stop acting juvenile and patch things up with that company. By having AMD and Nvidia as alternatives, it would've opened things up even more. 

jdw said:

Sanctum1972 said:

78Bandit said:

My point is it doesn't take decades of bad decisions to imperil a large, well-established company.  It can happen in just a few years even though the ultimate extent of the damage isn't realized until much later.

Exactly! This is what a lot of people are missing the point on. Just because Apple is sitting on so much cash doesn't mean it's immune to external and internal forces. Look at Tim Cook. The guy is literally almost 59 years old because sooner or later, he has to step down or retire within 5 years or less. In other words, Apple has between NOW and within 3-5 years to get a new CEO replacement. The same can be said for the rest of the executive team. Look at Angela Arendts. She just left Apple at the age of 58 and who knows what she plans on doing. I think she's pretty much retired now and might not return to the corporate industry. 

The point I'm making is that once Schiller, Cook, Cue, Williams, Craig Federghi and Ive are gone, Apple is going to have major issues as a lot of them are close to retirement age... You cannot simply replicate the 2007 iPhone revolution, or even the iPad from 2010. 

I clicked Like on your post because you made some excellent points that I agree with.  But at the same time, more than $100 billion in cash really does make Apple immune to all external and internal forces UNTIL most of that cash runs dry, and that may be a long time spanning many years.  I also disagree that Apple would have major issues if Ive and team departed, seeing that Ive and team have been making stupid design decisions over the past few years, like the butterfly keyboard abomination and the choice to gut the MacBook Pro of pro features that Mac-loving pros rely on.  Word has it that Ive and team are making a new Mac Pro which will be so expensive MOST PEOPLE WHO LOVE MACS could never afford it, which makes zero sense for a huge company like Apple who prefers to sell products in high volume.  Powerful people at Apple making stupid decisions need to go, even if those very people are responsible for the success Apple enjoys today.

Some decry the Apple after Steve left as "failing," but that Apple created some amazing things like the SE/30 and the first Mac notebooks which, while insanely priced, were in many ways insanely great.  The SE/30 especially would never have happened under Steve's "no expansion slot" philosophy, yet it is the ultimate compact Mac BECAUSE of that expandability.  In other words, there is a risk that Apple could fail under new leadership (i.e., under well-groomed MBA's targeting Wall Street investors above all else), but there is an equal possibility it may thrive and "replicate the 2007 iPhone revolution" because new blood (especially "hippy non-conformist Apple-tech-loving creative types") tends to Think Different.  That's serious food for though for The Rest of Us.  It's only doom and gloom at a company when genuine creativity and innovation dies and/or the product line loses touch with the practical needs and demands of its most loyal consumers.

Surely it will take many years for the cash to bleed out completely, but on the other hand, I don't see how well it's being utilized these days as unless this is intended for emergency uses. I still think Apple isn't immune because the political landscape and change affects it greatly especially the economy from outside the United States. I believe that the larger the company is, the harder it is to maneuver it, and the more people you have on staff, the more likely quality control will slip. Jobs went to almost every department to inspect his products' development to ensure quality and I understand this is why many people feared him for that. It would be like having a drill sergeant come in to inspect your gear and if he sees a whiff of a mistake, you get smoked hard ( disclaimer: I've never served but my late parents and uncles did in the 1940s-50s, so I kind of understand that mentality ). Whereas, Cook is more of a lassez faire type with a " I trust you all so I'll go ahead and take a flight to Sweden for a conference talk " kind of attitude ( my impression ). I may be old school, but Cook's attitude is what rubs me off the wrong way. 

Everything starts at the top and it all trickles down. And I think the sense of complacency or laziness began after Jobs' passing and Cook changed that culture of fear into something else akin to 'kumbaya'. 

As far as the the new Mac Pro, I'm very leery about it. I'm a creative professional which I work independently as a digital artist/illustrator ( sometimes graphic design ) that rely on my old school 2010 iMac, Wacom tablet, Microsoft keyboard ( very comfy ), and Kensington trackball mouse along with the iPad Pro 12.9 original model. These two machines work together like a team so I can build out projects in between. On the Mac, I use Adobe CS5, Clip Studio Paint, Sketchbook Pro and a few other apps and because I prefer the desktop, the screen is easier on my eyes due to my astigmatism, and also I can see everything to actual 100% scale especially when creating page layouts. On iPad Pro, not quite even though it's close. Before all that, I used a 2002 Power Mac G4 tower ( mirror drive ) which kicked ass along with the 15 inch Titanium G4 PowerBook laptop. These two machines are still here with me as my legacy back ups along with the 19 inch LCD matte monitor, just in case even though they're stored away. I even have the original iPad stored away until then. I still prefer the Wacom device because the stylus does not need recharging at all and one can go all day using the tablet without worry via USB, plus it's got an eraser on top of it. I even have a Belkin Nostromo keypad which only works for the G4, not iMac unfortunately, which was a godsend for custom shortcuts while drawing on the tablet. This was before Razer bought it out and redesigned it into the new Chroma or Tartarus models which look sweet.

The thing is that Apple's desktop blunders these days really disturbs me because my G4 tower was SO easy to upgrade. EASY. All I had to do was pop open the side and add in any RAM I want. Nowadays? The iMac Pro is extortionately expensive along with the 'trashcan' Mac Pro which is ridiculous to the point that it's insulting. That's why the lack of practical industrial design is an issue and Apple needs to go back to that. And because Cook's lack of design taste contributed to that. Jobs had better taste, however, as one poster astutely pointed out. My concern is their new Mac Pro might end up being more expensive and they might even force users to use modular units as upgrade parts over time. And because I plan on upgrading to a new computer by the end of the year, I'm still unsure if getting another Mac is practical because I want to get away from the AIO ( all in one ) design and get a larger external monitor ( probably 27-32 inches ) for better screen estate to move palettes and images around, replace the old Nostromo with a Razer keypad for shortcuts and replace the Wacom with a screen model this time around, and so on.

There's a chance I might switch to a DELL tower (maybe HP) to save money and go for practicality, allowing me the ability to upgrade over time. Because of the advent of virtual reality, I'm very intriqued by the Tilt Paint app for Vive or Oculus and would like to experiment with this new medium as I'm hearing a lot of artists are getting into that. The only concern is the compatibility issue between the VR units and the Macs ( the PC has more flexibility I believe due to the wide variety of NVIDIA chips ). 

Also the problem from Apple lies in, from what I heard, that the Industrial Design team has more power over the Engineering department. This, to me, is wrong. Jobs was able to keep Jony Ive in check but not Cook. And I think if Jony and a few others left, sure, Apple will have some challenges along the way in transition until it finds a 'voice' again. 

In regards to the Mac SE/30, yes I remember it well and the high price tag it held especially with the other computers as well. An old friend of mine was lucky to own the Mac Classic ( revised 1984 version made in 1991, I think? ). A beautiful machine. The keyboards were a mechanical godsend to my fingers. My cousin had a Apple II at his old house back in the day and we used to play the games on it every Christmas. It was awesome. Although, in the mid to late 80s, I had a Commodore 128 ( Vic 20 before that ). I didn't get a Mac until the early 1990s because I had to use Adobe Illustrator at home while studying at art school. And then I started getting into PowerPC later on with Photoshop and a scanner. It got the job done. And then got the Power Mac G3 ( gone now which was a used machine and died out ) and then G4. Nowadays, I scan with my old school iPhone 7 ( any smartphone would do the trick regardless ) if I have to, even I still have the old SE here because I freaking love the flat edge design and comfortable size which is my back up and camera for reference purposes. 

I think it's going to take Apple about a decade to get that '2007' lightning in the bottle sensation again but only with the new generation of new leadership. And if Apple wants to get there again, it needs some serious house cleaning starting at the top as soon as possible. The problem is that the current leadership is aging fast close to retirement and until they step the hell down soon or be flushed out, the company will likely be out of touch from reality for quite a while. 

horvatic said:

The answer is no. Why? Apple has a lot more money in the bank and has lots of other things making money for the company. The environment has changed significantly and things are just way different from the 90's. 

All this talk about money in the bank, high stocks, and large company size is an illusion. It's a distraction to what's really going on under the hood at Apple Park. Is the environment different? Yes but not for the better for Apple. Back then, they got lucky because of Jobs' vision, discipline, sense of timing, and balls of steel between 1998-2011.

Now? Not so much from what I'm seeing. 

78Bandit said:

My point is it doesn't take decades of bad decisions to imperil a large, well-established company.  It can happen in just a few years even though the ultimate extent of the damage isn't realized until much later.

Exactly! This is what a lot of people are missing the point on. Just because Apple is sitting on so much cash doesn't mean it's immune to external and internal forces. Look at Tim Cook. The guy is literally almost 59 years old because sooner or later, he has to step down or retire within 5 years or less. In other words, Apple has between NOW and within 3-5 years to get a new CEO replacement. The same can be said for the rest of the executive team. Look at Angela Arendts. She just left Apple at the age of 58 and who knows what she plans on doing. I think she's pretty much retired now and might not return to the corporate industry. 

The point I'm making is that once Schiller, Cook, Cue, Williams, Craig Federghi and Ive are gone, Apple is going to have major issues as a lot of them are close to retirement age. Most of the executives are nearly about the same age with each other except for Craig who is 49 now, apparently the youngest it seems. And he's literally two years older than me! Within 10 years from now, the old Apple Leadership will be already gone and whoever sits in those chairs are going to make decisions that may differ vastly from today's, either for better or for worse. 

One poster here mentioned about how the Apple leadership might not be so 'hungry' anymore due to complacency and I think that's a very likely scenario. I grew up with the company in the 80s and have witnessed their missteps in the 1990s during my years at art school ( Majored in Illustration. I studied with Graphic Design students on the same floor. Industrial Design was in another building at the basement level ) prior to Jobs' return. When Jobs returned, Apple became laser focused with discipline and got products out on time ( for the most part ) compared to what we see now. 

When Microsoft promoted Nadella to CEO, it was the smartest thing they've ever done while Cook still sat at his position. The moment Microsoft promoted him should have been when Apple made that change up right there. People don't seem to realize that it's almost impossible for Apple to put the 2007 lightning in the bottle again for 2019 and forward. You cannot simply replicate the 2007 iPhone revolution, or even the iPad from 2010. 

lkrupp said:

fastasleep said:

Just saw a comment on Facebook about the market drop being led by Apple: "$1000 phones, what do you expect!"  LOL

Well, the critics and haters have to have something to bitch about don’t they? For years it was performance, now it’s price. All the top flagship smartphones are approaching $1K but let’s single out the iPhone for ridicule. No amount of editorializing will stop the carping. The haters and disgruntled desktop crowd think they’ve found a new path to Apple’s doom and they will milk it for all it’s worth. Let them wallow in their negativity. Let them stew in their own hate filled juices. Let them be consumed by their own inadequacies. Let them think people who remain fans of the company are delusional.

This kind of talk doesn't help address the problem. Calling them haters or disgruntled is considered 'gaslighting' and that's exactly what you're doing, in a defensive manner to deflect any Apple issues. There are angry people and there are ANGRY people. The users who have owned Apple products for years have a right to be angry and that doesn't make them haters. And when you call those people 'haters', it makes the situation worse and they would view you as arrogant or ignorant, even both which is much worse. 

Gaslighting behavior like your's is EXACTLY the problem at forums from here to other websites and it draws in angry posters. 

I, for one, have followed Apple for years and prefer their older products because they were well produced. I own a 2010-11 iMac which still works to this day, original iPad, iPad Pro 12.9, iPhone SE ( my previous phone ) and iPhone 7 ( now my current device). I also have stored away an original lime green iBook, PowerBook G4 Titanium (old school workhorse ), and G4 tower. Those last three computers plus my iMac were user upgradable on RAM and it was beautiful, providing me flexibility for my graphic design/dgitial art needs. Those old machines I've had were worth it which is why I'm still holding on to my iMac until I find something more practical to upgrade to ( and no, not the new Mac Mini which I have serious reservations about ). EDIT: I also have an original iPad (click wheel ) and iPod Touch. I also have a Lenovo Chromebook for daily webmail and browsing which gets the job done. No need for a fancy $2,000 laptop to do the basic things nor do I need it to talk to my iOS eco-system which is also connected to my wifi and wireless Brother laser printer. Simple set up. 

Am I impressed with Apple's current direction? No. Not by a long shot. They can do far, far better than what they're offering. I'm not saying Steve Jobs was perfect, but at least, he kept the company in line under an 'iron fist' with a laser like focus on quality while on the other hand, you have Cook who doesn't have the mojo to get things back on the right track with products' quality control slacking. Under Tim's watch. There's a reddit topic going on now which is growing regarding the nickle and diming and I'm not going to link it here but you can find it. And it doesn't make them haters as they're pointing out what's wrong with the products and the pricing. 

Here's a good example of what's wrong with Apple now. The new iPad Pro 12.9's industrial design looks nice but the problem was that this was what they should've went with in the FIRST place including a magnetic Pencil stylus to charge on. Surface got it right the first time which Apple pooh-poohed and then they do a 180 degree turn by going with that design after a few years. See the problem? It's called arrogance. The original iPad Pro worked fine for me and still does but I found charging it at the port side to be. . .weird as if it was some kind of 'sick joke' by someone inside Apple when Microsoft, OTOH, got it right the first time. However, the 12.9 size may be handy due to the portable nature of it which is fine, although had they gone with, say, a 20 inch iPad Pro, it would've been more practical for the professional creatives so that we can view images or projects at 100% actual scale. For example, comic book artists use an 11 x 17 illustration board for each page to be scaled down and if they do it on iPad Pro, they have to do a lot of zooming/scaling to see the whole thing while a larger tablet would make it easier, providing more room for palettes and seeing the entire image at once. Or page layout for magazine designers so that they can view both page spreads at the same time. This is why large screened monitors are handy for this reason.

Although, I doubt having a  USB-C outlet to an external monitor for iPad Pro would solve the problem because the process would require looking at the monitor to view the image's actual print scale. Why Apple didn't come out with an actual touch screen monitor at 21 inches or larger to dock with iPad or other devices is beyond me. And it's NOT the first time Apple has made docking products. 

Remember the Powerbook Duo Dock from the 1990s? Look it up. All Apple. If they can do this back then, they should've already done it again by now. 

But that's just one example out of many. And that doesn't make me a hater.