swineone

melgross said:

swineone said:

melgross said:

swineone said:

melgross said:

swineone said:

"This works with any Intel Mac app" [quoted from the article, regarding Rosetta 2]

Are you sure? Does that include Parallels running x86-64 Windows? It's quite telling that they mentioned Rosetta and virtualization, yet made no mention of this, which could alleviate concerns on many pro users' minds (myself included).

I doubt they meant that. But as Apple has said, only 2% of Macs coming in for service had Windows installed in Bootcamp. How many are using Parallels or other virtualization software with Windows, I don’t know, but it’s not a lot. I have it too, but I haven’t run Windows for more than a year. I still do Run Linux occasionally though. So likely, from what I hear, that’s more important.

i doubt I’d too many pro users use Windows on their Mac these days. It’s mostly used by gamers.

I have zero games on my Windows installation under Parallels. I do have EDA software (electronics simulation, schematic capture, PCB routing, FPGAs, etc.), test & measurement software to interface with electronics T&M gear, MCAD software, software development apps (Visual Studio, the real one not the toy Code version, plus various embedded software tools), etc.

Another group of people will have in-house apps that are Windows only.

Maybe in your line of work pro users don't need Windows software. It doesn't mean no one else does.

And those like you consist of what, 0.5% of Apple’s user base?

I hypothesize that those like me are 50% of the user base.

Absurd, you say?

Not any more than your figure. Both of us took these numbers straight out of our rear end.

You were never 50%. Maybe 10% in the beginning, but almost nothing now. My figure isn’t out of my ear. It’s based on writing of those who have in the business. We do know that Apple said that 2% of Macs coming in for service have Windows installed in Bootcamp. Most are used for gaming. That’s been written about too. There are somewhat over 110 million Macs being used, according to Apple. 0.5% would be 500,000 people. So sure, that’s a lot of people, but as a percentage, it’s very small.

I see you keep taking numbers off your rear end: not 50%, 10%, 2% (this one, while not taken out of your rear end, is irrelevant to the discussion), 110 million, 0.5%, 500,000. Taking numbers off your rear end is not a valid argumentative technique.

Let me repeat, very slowly: what matters is the percentage of people who run VIRTUALIZATION software. Boot Camp is not virtualization. Anyone who runs Boot Camp is a PC user who happened to find, at a certain point of time, that the Mac hardware being offered at the time was a better deal to them than the rest of PC hardware he looked at, and it happened to have Intel compatibility, so it met those users' needs. So this was merely an accidental Mac sale; these users are not macOS converts with concrete chances of staying in the Apple ecosystem. These kinds of users most likely are buying PC hardware from now on, no question about it. Additionally, because in general Apple hardware is more expensive than the equivalent PC hardware, these users are not really representative, as I've already tried to argue.

To see how many real Mac users Apple will lose, it's necessary to find reports of the percentage of users running VMware, Parallels or VirtualBox. Note that I said "reports" there, not "numbers taken out of one's rear end". Without that figure, the discussion cannot proceed.

rob53 said:

melgross said:

swineone said:

"This works with any Intel Mac app" [quoted from the article, regarding Rosetta 2]

Are you sure? Does that include Parallels running x86-64 Windows? It's quite telling that they mentioned Rosetta and virtualization, yet made no mention of this, which could alleviate concerns on many pro users' minds (myself included).

I doubt they meant that. But as Apple has said, only 2% of Macs coming in for service had Windows installed in Bootcamp. How many are using Parallels or other virtualization software with Windows, I don’t know, but it’s not a lot. I have it too, but I haven’t run Windows for more than a year. I still do Run Linux occasionally though. So likely, from what I hear, that’s more important.

i doubt I’d too many pro users use Windows on their Mac these days. It’s mostly used by gamers.

I went back through the Keynote and at the 1:40:11 mark, Docker (docker.com) was shown running Linux. At the 1:41:58 mark Parallels was shown running Debian. Craig said all macOS Big Sur demoes were run on an AS Mac so I assume it's either the AS Mac mini or another development AS Mac. Parallels has made some big changes in ver 15 but I run VMWare Fusion so haven't looked at Parallels for a long time. Anyway, at this point in the keynote they were talking about Rosetta 2 so I assume they simply installed Parallels ver 15 and it converted it to run on Apple Silicon. They didn't show Windows running but that's really Parallels and Dockers responsibility to provide the hardware interface between Windows and the host platform. It appears this is working but as everyone (else) wants to know, will it run Windows. We'll have to wait for the first developer to try it on the developer kit.

One other thing. I checked the serial number of the AS Mac mini in the keynote and it says "We’re sorry, but this serial number isn’t valid. Please check your information and try again." I don't remember if this was simply a faked screen shot or if Craig did an About this Mac and it showed up. Apple could also be blocking certain serial numbers.

While I hope you’re right, they were quite explicit to mention the game as an Intel binary. They never did the same for Parallels. So it’s possible that it’s a Parallels ARM port. Evidently Linux runs on ARM as well, and I assume Docker also does, so either wouldn’t be a roadblock.

Overall they were quite vague with the wording during the keynote, so it’s a coin toss as to whether it was running Linux on ARM or Linux on Intel.

melgross said:

swineone said:

melgross said:

swineone said:

"This works with any Intel Mac app" [quoted from the article, regarding Rosetta 2]

Are you sure? Does that include Parallels running x86-64 Windows? It's quite telling that they mentioned Rosetta and virtualization, yet made no mention of this, which could alleviate concerns on many pro users' minds (myself included).

I doubt they meant that. But as Apple has said, only 2% of Macs coming in for service had Windows installed in Bootcamp. How many are using Parallels or other virtualization software with Windows, I don’t know, but it’s not a lot. I have it too, but I haven’t run Windows for more than a year. I still do Run Linux occasionally though. So likely, from what I hear, that’s more important.

i doubt I’d too many pro users use Windows on their Mac these days. It’s mostly used by gamers.

I have zero games on my Windows installation under Parallels. I do have EDA software (electronics simulation, schematic capture, PCB routing, FPGAs, etc.), test & measurement software to interface with electronics T&M gear, MCAD software, software development apps (Visual Studio, the real one not the toy Code version, plus various embedded software tools), etc.

Another group of people will have in-house apps that are Windows only.

Maybe in your line of work pro users don't need Windows software. It doesn't mean no one else does.

And those like you consist of what, 0.5% of Apple’s user base?

I hypothesize that those like me are 50% of the user base.

Absurd, you say?

Not any more than your figure. Both of us took these numbers straight out of our rear end.

rob53 said:

melgross said:

swineone said:

"This works with any Intel Mac app" [quoted from the article, regarding Rosetta 2]

Are you sure? Does that include Parallels running x86-64 Windows? It's quite telling that they mentioned Rosetta and virtualization, yet made no mention of this, which could alleviate concerns on many pro users' minds (myself included).

I doubt they meant that. But as Apple has said, only 2% of Macs coming in for service had Windows installed in Bootcamp. How many are using Parallels or other virtualization software with Windows, I don’t know, but it’s not a lot. I have it too, but I haven’t run Windows for more than a year. I still do Run Linux occasionally though. So likely, from what I hear, that’s more important.

i doubt I’d too many pro users use Windows on their Mac these days. It’s mostly used by gamers.

I went back through the Keynote and at the 1:40:11 mark, Docker (docker.com) was shown running Linux. At the 1:41:58 mark Parallels was shown running Debian. Craig said all macOS Big Sur demoes were run on an AS Mac so I assume it's either the AS Mac mini or another development AS Mac. Parallels has made some big changes in ver 15 but I run VMWare Fusion so haven't looked at Parallels for a long time. Anyway, at this point in the keynote they were talking about Rosetta 2 so I assume they simply installed Parallels ver 15 and it converted it to run on Apple Silicon. They didn't show Windows running but that's really Parallels and Dockers responsibility to provide the hardware interface between Windows and the host platform. It appears this is working but as everyone (else) wants to know, will it run Windows. We'll have to wait for the first developer to try it on the developer kit.

One other thing. I checked the serial number of the AS Mac mini in the keynote and it says "We’re sorry, but this serial number isn’t valid. Please check your information and try again." I don't remember if this was simply a faked screen shot or if Craig did an About this Mac and it showed up. Apple could also be blocking certain serial numbers.

While I hope you’re right, they were quite explicit to mention the game as an Intel binary. They never did the same for Parallels. So it’s possible that it’s a Parallels ARM port. Evidently Linux runs on ARM as well, and I assume Docker also does, so either wouldn’t be a roadblock.

Overall they were quite vague with the wording during the keynote, so it’s a coin toss as to whether it was running Linux on ARM or Linux on Intel.

pslice said:

Is Apple going to offer an AppleCare extension to bridge Intel users to the Apple Silicon? My AppleCare expired on 6/15. I had hoped Apple would announce new iMacs. Right now I feel naked without AppleCare coverage.

You want Apple to replace parts for free on an 8-year old computer? Does that sound reasonable?

EDIT: OK, looks like I made a mistake, I read that as June of 2015, but you probably meant June 15th, 2020.

Either way I don't think they'll offer an extension for free. Maybe they could sell an extended Apple Care at a considerably higher rate (3-5 year old computers fail more often than 1-3 year old ones), but I don't expect them to do so.