wiggin

macxpress said:

tokyojimu said:

They better not drop it from the Mini!

Or else what? This is old technology and Apple sees its not widely used. There are better ways of getting digital audio in and out of your Mac. 

So out of genuine curiosity, how does Apple know how often it's used? I know I always uncheck the box during setup to not allow my devices to send Apple "diagnostic and usage" information if that's their source. Granted, I seldom use it on my MBP, but I definitely use it on my minis.

macgui said:

igorsky said:

You just blew the minds of every serial Apple complainer on the internet.  Although this will surely not satisfy that user who feels that his/her personal use case should be everyone's personal use case.

Yes! Emphasis added.

I just don't see 'pent up demand' as being a sufficient motivator for record orders of a book that on its face obviously now lacks 'Pro' features that people supposedly need. 'This MBP dropped features I use and need but I'll spend >$1000 anyway' just doesn't play.

And I'd expect a slowdown in the purchase of most any major computing product from any manufacture after six months.

My guess is that more users will be happy with this MBP than not, and that buyers' remorse will not be anywhere nearly as widespread as some people expect/hope. 

Apple should have kept one previous model 15", kept its feature set and added Ethernet, souped it up, 32G RAM and battery life be damned, and sold it as the Mac Book PRO, and renamed all the others MacBooks. 

I don't need a such a Mac, but there are still those who do. Make the Pro label really means something. Doing that would open up Apple to all the 'Apple admits...' click-bait articles. Apple could weather that teapot tempest.

Not exactly your "keep a previous model", but there is precedent for Apple reinstating a port they removed from a laptop. In the Fall of 2008 Apple dropped FW from the MacBook. Supposedly Steve Jobs later stated it was because there wasn't a need for it anymore. Less than a year later, much sooner than their normal product refresh, Apple put FW back on the MacBook. The point being that sometimes Apple can be a bit too aggressive with it's minimalist designs (buttonless shuffle, anyone?).

Do I think Apple will return any ports lost with this MBP revision? Unlikely. If for no other reason that they've used the absence of these ports to reduce the thinness of the MBP to the point that they would likely need a complete redesign and retooling of the production lines to put anything back in the design. Returning FW to the MacBook design was trivial by comparison. So even if there was strong evidence that the removal of the ports was premature, Apple has backed themselves into a corner and for better or worse there is no turning back.

Also, FYI...in case folks weren't already aware, Apple still sells the 2015 MBPs, so they clearly knew/suspected that the lack of ports might be an issue for some. But the models they still sell are the integrated graphics only models, no discrete graphics. If they had simply upgraded the CPU/GPU of those models with the 2016 options I'd likely have purchased one. If they had also swapped the TB 2 ports for TB3 my order would already be placed.

macplusplus said:

blastdoor said:

Rayz2016 said:

blastdoor said:

Well, there's a lot of pent-up demand because they haven't updated for so long. 

Let's see how the sales look after 6 months. 

But if this thing is as bad as people have been saying it is, then no one would buy it. They'll wait for the next one, or move to Windows as folk here have said they would. I mean if you cannot POSSIBLY work in anything less than 32GB of RAM then the machine is useless to you. 

I suspect the real reason is that Apple knows more about its customers than we do. 

It's not that black/white. 

There are a variety of needs among Apple's customers. I don't doubt that these new laptops meet the needs of many (perhaps even a majority) of Apple's customers. 

But the new machines are clearly a disappointment to many (probably not a majority) of Apple's high-end customers. 

I think it is a mistake for Apple (and those Panglossian Apple fans who reflexively defend everything Apple does) to believe that just because these high-end customers are not a majority of consumers that they don't matter. Partly they matter because some of these folks are Apple's most die hard fans -- the ones who evangelize Apple products and provide support to family and friends. Partly they matter because while every individual niche represents a minority of users, it could very well be that the some of all the minorities is a majority. 

Speaking strictly as an owner many AAPL shares, I think Apple needs to figure out how to provide a broader product range. I don't think they should pursue low margin or "cheap" products, but I do think they should be more open to pursuing low volume (but high margin) products that are direct offshoots of their more high volume products. For example, they need more than one basic Mac Pro configuration and they need to update it more than every 3 to 4 years. As another example, I think it was a mistake to kill off Apple-branded monitors. 

A high-end customer is the one who is technically mature enough to not depend on Apple and able to find her/his way around. Not those whining about adapters at every product launch. And they matter to Apple since Apple releases products capable of answering even the most challenging technical demands as seen with Final Cut Pro, Logic Pro and of course the hardware range.

That broader product range was the catastrophe of the 90s bringing Apple to the point of extinction: laserwriters, stylewriters, crappy cameras overlapping and inconsistent tower and desktop models... Apple will not go back to these days.

Low volume but high margin products are a feature of vertical markets. There are system integrators, turnkey solution sellers to do that. Apple is not in that business. Apple will not be a Sun, DEC, Compaq, HP either. Apple produces for the mass market, not for vertical markets. Vertical markets prefer Apple products because they are the best, not because they are specifically produced for vertical markets. There will not be a broad range of Mac Pro. Apple provides one expandable power core. The system integrator people take that core and expand it with several solutions to build complete powerhouses for their customers. There are so many talented PC-guys out there that even if they don't know anything about Apple, they can expose a complete wizardry when it comes to building an Apple based solution.

So, that high-end customer everyone pretends to be is an urban legend. There are just customers with myriads of different needs.

I see a potential contradiction here... On the one hand you say the MBP should be purely intended for high-end customers, not those of us whining about adapters; but then say Apple produces for the mass market, not the low volume market. Historically speaking, do we have any idea what % of MBPs were purchased by your hypothetical high-end customer vs what we'll call the prosumers? Those who perhaps don't need all the power but can afford to purchase the higher-end hardware and appreciate the convenience and features of the pro models? I'd wager that a significant portion were purchased by people who didn't necessarily need the power/features but bought it anyway because they could afford it.

If you drive away those prosumers, what will happen to the MBP market? Will it become a low volume product without sufficient economies of scale to keep prices and upgrade cycles reasonable? Isn't this basically the situation with the Mac Pro?

Rayz2016 said:

cali said:

If the Touchbar shipped on the cheaper/smaller MacBooks I could really see them shipping iPad numbers.

Funny they kept the headphone jack for "professional audio".  This was the same argument I had for the headphone jack and got bashed for it like crazy here on Apple Insider.
It's still confusing why they didn't include a lightning port for optional charging, headphones and headphone adapters. Makes Apple seem less confident in their choices.

If you have wired headphones, you're good.
If you have wireless headphones, you're good.

Which leaves the question, how many people charge gadgets through their laptops? I don't, but unlike the anti-Macbook Pro crowd, I'm not going to assume that everyone else is the same.

I do, all the time (for the record, 2011 17" MBP). When travelling I frequently have all three USB ports in use charging devices. That means a single charger (the MBP's) plugged into the wall will charge my laptop and any three USB devices at the same time (iPhone, iPad, wife's iPhone, wireless headphones, GPS watch, etc). This is very valuable in hotel rooms which typically have very few free outlets. Even more so when travelling internationally and you need adapters just to plug anything into the wall. I also make heavy use of the ExpressCard slot with an adapter (which inserts fully and flush so nothing is sticking out) to duplicate the recent MBP SD card slots.

To me, the definition of "Pro" is not just about raw power or the ability to drive multiple 5K monitors. Just how many MBP owners do you think ever really do that? How many ever even connect to a single external monitor, let alone two? "Pro" is also about being able to get things done with minimal fuss, which includes not being dependent on a bunch of adapters. It includes being practically anywhere in the world and being able to easily buy a cable if I should lose mine or if mine fails for any reason. Adapters can fail and often do not provide the same seamless experience as a native port. And they are much more difficult to replace when you are traveling or otherwise need one on short notice. I can step into any Walgreens or 7-11 in the country at 10 PM and get any cord I'd currently ever need. The same simply is not true of USB C cords/adapters and won't be for quite some time.

The new MBPs are fine machines, but probably more so if yours spends more time sitting on a desk at home or in the office connected to a dock or via adapters to various motionless devices. Less so if your needs are more mobile. The power it provides is fantastic (for my needs, others have more demanding needs) and I think I would really like the new screen tech (the monitor, I don't care either way about the Touch Bar); but it comes with compromises with regards to other "pro" requirements I have. In a few years when USB C is more common place, the situation will be different. But that doesn't address my requirements today. 

I was finally prepared to give up my 17" screen and upgrade my aging MBP. I was looking forward to Apple's MBP update this Fall and was planning on upgrading, but now I've determined that it will not be a 2016 model. I'll look for a 2015 model, hopefully at a discounted price. In 3-5 years the USB C story will be different. It's unfortunate (in my mind) that Apple couldn't have provided a transition model like they have with every past MBP port migration which would allow me to start purchasing USB C and Thunderbolt 3 devices and be in a better position for going all-C with my next laptop purchase.

You are correct that we shouldn't assume that everyone's requirements are the same as ours, but that also means understanding that thinness and raw power are perhaps not the only requirements for a "pro" machine.

You also have to admit that there are far, far more negative comments and upset folks with this upgrade than there has been for any Apple release in recent memory...perhaps ever. There are always going to be at least some number of people who are upset/disappointed, but the sheer volume of complaints this time around should perhaps give you a little pause to ask yourself if this is really just the same ranting that always accompanies an Apple announcement? Or perhaps, just perhaps, there might me a bit more legitimacy to the complaints this time around.

kpom said:

JayB said:

I wonder how many commenters are paid by Apple about these things. Along with how many commenters are only getting this new computer cause they work at a tech site.

Apple is a joke without Steve Jobs. Their new business strategy is change everything just slightly enough to get gullible tech geeks that still think Apple is high end to buy their product. 

Let's just change all the ports so people t
Have to buy out our new cords. Lets claim everything not sold directly from us is a fake.
Let's over price our computer that is using technology from 4 years ago. 

Funny how all you claim so many people are buying Apple. All my Mac friends have switched to PC in the last few years. So I guess the claim goes both ways.

You are right. Steve Jobs would never have released a Mac that dropped every legacy port Apple had ever used in the past. /S. 

You might want to check your /s at the door and take a look at the complete history, not just one cherry picked example. Yes, Jobs did this once, in the late 90s with the original iMac. At the time, pretty much the only thing anyone plugged into two of the "lost" ports (SCSI and serial) was a printer. Any other devices were quite rare.  (ADB was also removed, but Apple included a USB keyboard and mouse in the box, so no functionality was lost. And the iMac still had built-in modem and Ethernet ports.)

There are at least two more recent examples where Jobs did, in fact, leave the old ports in place...the first Apple laptop with FW800 (still had FW400) and the first one with Thunderbolt (still had FW800).

So you conveniently ignore these much more recent examples of Apple providing an orderly port migration design iteration and have to go back 15 years to find an example that supports your position. Not really a very solid argument.