tenthousandthings
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Early M2 Max benchmarks may have just leaked online
I've been waiting for a thread to post this in, I guess it can go here. The tl;dr version is there has been one other unusual, long time interval in the past history of Apple Silicon, between the A10 and the A10X, and that is the only case where Apple switched process nodes in between. This fact could indicate that the reason for the similarly long interval between the M2 and the M2Pro/Max (at least) is because of a process node change.Below is a history of the A-Series and M-series to date. This is selective, but everything here is accurate and known, not speculative. I don't track every device. For Macs, I only note those that are not transitional. For example, for the M1 I only list the iMac 24" -- every other M1 Mac was transitional. I also track the TSMC process nodes.A4 (March 2010) iPad 1 :: iPhone 4A5 (March 2011) iPad 2 :: iPhone 4SA5X (March 2012) iPad 3A6 (September 2012) iPhone 5A6X (October 2012) iPad 4A7 (September 2013) iPhone 5S :: iPad Air 1A8 (September 2014) iPhone 6 [TSMC 20nm]A8X (October 2014) iPad Air 2 [TSMC 20nm]A9 (September 2015) iPhone 6S :: iPad 5 [TSMC 16nm]A9X (November 2015) iPad Pro 1 [TSMC 16nm]A10 (September 2016) iPhone 7 :: iPad 6 :: iPad 7 [TSMC 16nm gen3]A10X (June 2017) iPad Pro 2 [TSMC 10nm]A11 (September 2017) iPhone 8, iPhone X [TSMC 10nm]A12 (September 2018) iPhone XS :: iPad Air 3 :: iPad 8 [TSMC 7nm gen1 "N7"]A12X (October 2018) iPad Pro 3 [TSMC 7nm gen1 "N7"]A12Z (March 2020) iPad Pro 4 :: Developer Transition Kit [TSMC 7nm gen1 "N7"]A13 (September 2019) iPhone 11 :: iPad 9 [TSMC 7nm gen2 "N7P" (P = Plus)]A14 (October 2020) iPhone 12 :: iPad Air 4 :: iPad 10 [TSMC 5nm gen1 "N5"]M1 (November 2020) iMac 24" :: iPad Pro 5 [TSMC 5nm gen1 "N5"]M1 Pro/Max (October 2021) MacBook Pro 14" 16" [TSMC 5nm gen1 "N5"]M1 Ultra (March 2022) Mac Studio [TSMC 5nm gen1 "N5"]A15 (September 2021) iPhone 13 :: iPhone 14 [TSMC 5nm gen2 "N5P"]M2 (June 2022) MacBook Air 4 :: iPad Pro 6 [TSMC 5nm gen2 "N5P"]A16 (September 2022) iPhone 14 Pro [TSMC 5nm gen3 "N4"]Notice the long time interval between the A10 and the A10X. In every other case (the A6/A6X, A8/A8X, A9/A9X, and A12/A12X), there is one month between the release of the flagship iPhone SoC and the flagship iPad SoC. Only the A10 and A10X have a nine-month gap between them. How is that different from the others? It's the only one with a process node change. Moreover, it's a big jump, from the third generation of TSMC's 16nm node to its new 10nm node.The second thing to point out is that all of the M1 SoCs share the same process node. That's currently our only M-series data point, so we can't draw any conclusions, but I've arranged the releases in a way that highlights the fact the M-series has replaced the X variants.Next, a lot of speculation has been made about future 3nm TSMC process nodes. But TSMC has two still-upcoming 5nm nodes: gen4 "N4P" (P = Plus) and gen5 "N4X" (X = Extreme). The N4X node is especially intriguing with respect to a new Mac Pro: https://pr.tsmc.com/english/news/2895 -- I don't know about you, but this press release, with its emphasis on HPC, advanced packaging, and "the common design rules of the N5 process," reads like a recipe for M2 Ultra/Extreme SoCs.In conclusion: if the past history of the A-series is any indication, the long, likely eight- or nine-month gap between the M2 and the M2 Pro+ probably indicates a process node change. It still seems too early for TSMC's 3nm tech, so that leaves the N4P and N4X nodes. Here's a wild guess for what the end of my list above will look like prior to the start of a new cycle with the M3.M2 Pro/Max (March 2023) iMac 24" :: Mac mini 6 :: MacBook Pro 14" 16" [TSMC 5nm gen4 "N4P"]M2 Ultra/Extreme (June 2023) Mac Studio :: Mac Pro [TSMC 5nm gen5 "N4X"]
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Intel's Thunderbolt 5 has twice the speed of Thunderbolt 4
The other major integrated elements are support for display protocols (DisplayPort) and charging. Apple needs TB5 to support a future ProMotion 8K XDR display in a single cable, and they (and the rest of the industry) are getting that.mpantone said:
I agree, I don't see how Joe Consumer will be able to saturate TB5 bandwidth.rob53 said:Not sure NVMe single blades will max out that projected speed and I can guarantee you that TB5 hardware will not be inexpensive. Article talks about 8K displays and only a bit about faster SSDs (for gaming? what about for real work like video production), which also will cost more. Higher bandwidth also ends up meaning people will want larger storage because, conceivably, faster speeds will allow more data to be pushed and stored. There is a usable limit to these speeds, which always has to do with money. You got it, you can buy it. Most consumers will never see the speed of TB5, same as now because most consumers only use USB3.x speeds instead of TB3/4 speeds because of the extra cost in making the interface hardware.
A pro certain probably could, writing multiple streams of 8K video (or other data) to a disk array with multiple NVMe drives. TB5 is intended more for that professional audience; Thunderbolt compatible hardware is already expensive.
In any case, TB5 is still in the proposal stage. Once it's approved in its final form, there would be more activity to develop compliant hardware.
Up until now, Thunderbolt has essentially been an externalization of the PCIe bus as far as I can tell. As PCIe bus bandwidth increases, Thunderbolt follows.
Apple’s original involvement was developing DisplayPort support and adapting Light Peak to support both optical cable and copper cable. To answer July’s question above, I don’t think Apple’s role is any different from the rest of the industry at this point. Here’s an early AI article about it:
https://appleinsider.com/articles/11/02/24/intel_details_thunderbolt_as_exclusive_to_apple_until_2012
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Satechi Thunderbolt 4 Dock review: A compact port extender for Mac
You’re forgetting that one of the (minimum) two on the MacBook is still free. So that’s four total I/O. So net gain is two, not one. And if it’s a 13" Pro or an M1 Air, the net gain for I/O is three if you need to charge the battery, because the hub does that as well.JP234 said:
So you have one port that connects to the Mac. That leaves three that can be used for I/O. But without the hub, you have (minimum) 2 that you can use for I/O. Net gain: 1 port.roundaboutnow said:
FTA: On the front of the dock is a Thunderbolt 4 host port, which connects to your Mac and can provide 96 watts of power delivery.JP234 said:
Your math is just one port off: you have to connect one of those 3 on the dock to one of the TB ports on your Mac. That's a total of 3.ITGUYINSD said:
Depends on what Mac you connect it to. Worst case, the MBP 13 M1 has 2 TB ports. One used for this dock, leaves me with 1 on the MBP and 3 on the dock. 4 Total by my count. And it's not just "some USB" ports, they are 10Gbps each. So yes -- if you just need some generic ports to plug in a mouse or a thumb drive, a $20 dock is fineJP234 said:So give up a Thunderbolt port on your Mac to get more thunderbolt ports? You had two, now you have three. And some USB ports, Ethernet, and an SD port.I got a dock with HDMI, Ethernet, SD, micro-SD, (2) USB 3.0 for $16.19 on Amazon.
Is this one really worth $300? Not to me. Maybe you.
For those who need more TB4 ports and high-speed USB 3.2 ports plus Ethernet, this is good. Expensive, but good. There isn't much else out there like this.
Like M68000 said -- no HDMI is a big bummer.Thunderbolt is expensive tech, no matter who's producing it, and it's really only useful to a handful of professionals in the I/O intensive applications. 10Gb/s USB-C will do just fine for the other 99.99%. So will two USB-C ports, for that matter.So there are four TB ports — one in front, three in back.Also, an HDMI port would be nice, but a TB to HDMI cable about the same price as an HDMI-HDMI cable.
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Microsoft cranks up entire Surface line with new Intel processors
Yes, exactly, art is made on poster boards—in reality, Apple is hesitant to compete with Wacom (e.g., Cintiq Pro 16" 24" 27" 32"), and graphics tablets are a niche market anyway. But Wacom tablets and pens are input devices, they are tethered to computers. An M3 iPad+ graphics tablet wouldn’t have that limitation, at least not to the same extent.charlesatlas said:
That wouldn’t be a tablet. That would be a poster board.tenthousandthings said:I’d still love to see Apple come out with an M2 iPad+ in two sizes, around 16-18" and 22-24" …
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Apple isn't done with 2022 -- here's what's still coming
The point is that the so-called “4nm” is still the 5nm tech. It’s inaccurate to suggest that it’s not, which is what netrox did. 4nm (N4 and N4P) is just a marketing name.9secondkox2 said:
Um… it’s been 2022 for a while now… plenty of time to have produced the A16 at 4nm and Apple is stating that explicitly and emphatically. It’s 4nm - actually matching the statement and timeline you quoted. There is no disagreement or contradiction.tenthousandthings said:
No, maybe you should take like three seconds to look it up before responding. This is text directly from the TSMC site:netrox said:
No, Apple literally said, "4 nanometer" - here's a screenshot of the video:tenthousandthings said:
Yes, that’s correct. And it’s thought to be the N4P process. It’s useful to know that it is still 5nm, “4nm” is just a name, indicating further refinements. TSMC has four generations of 5nm: N5, N5P, N4, and N4P.netrox said:I am pretty sure that the new M2 MacBook Pros will be based on 4nm process, not 5nm process. Apple said that A16 is created on 4nm process and it's likely that it will use the same process.So the M2 being N5P (A15) and M2 Pro/Max being N4P (A16), nicely mirrors the iPhone 14 and 14 Pro divide.
“TSMC’s 5nm (N5) Fin Field-Effect Transistor (FinFET) technology successfully entered volume production in the second quarter of 2020 and experienced a strong ramp in the second half of 2020. […]
In addition, TSMC plans to launch 4nm (N4) technology, an enhanced version of N5 technology. N4 provides further enhancement in performance, power and density for the next wave of N5 products. The development of N4 technology is on schedule with good progress, and volume production is expected to start in 2022.”
Source: https://www.tsmc.com/english/dedicatedFoundry/technology/logic/l_5nm
It’s been broadly discussed as such — it’s not a secret or anything.
Yes, it is a refinement. But no, it’s completely wrong to suggest it is like the transition from 5nm to 3nm technology, or from 7nm to 5nm before that, or from 10nm to 7nm before that.
