thompr

enuf said:

thompr said:

Then the current 200+ pending requests all get the same treatment by their judges.  Then such cases accelerate after that.

New problem.

Good. Apple should have foreseen this eventuality. It is not as if it hadn't been talked of by endless security experts, industry insiders, law enforcement agencies, politicians and news media bloviators for the last several years especially.

Had Apple shown the ability to plan ahead they would have had time to devise a plan that would protect everyone while making it possible to deprive cold blooded butchers of innocent people the means to hide their information.

Apple has only itself to blame for this mess.

It seems to me that Apple did foresee this and that they are planting their flag in the sand to fight against every bit of it.  Whether that is a "mess" only depends on which side of the issue you fall and which side of the issue wins in court.

enuf said:

Tim Cook deserves to be arrested, charged with Contempt of Court and jailed until he complies. If not for his failure to comply then for his failure to find a workable solution.

The FBI has stated repeatedly they are only asking for this one phone so as to determine what, if any, vital evidence there may be about other persons involved in this horrific attack. So, why does Apple fail to hold the FBI to that limitation? Apple should demand that Apple itself maintain physical security of the phone. Do all the work on Apple's premises, by Apple's employees. No network connectivity, in a space isolated from a Wi-Fi and Cell signals. Upon completion the FBI gets the data and Apple wipes the phone and it's own hack if they so desire.

At that point there is no more threat of Apple's internal hack reaching the outside world then there is of Apple's operating system source code or the formula for Coca-Cola or Kentucky Fried Chicken's secret recipe. If Apple cannot maintain physical security of information not connected to any outside system, not live on any powered system, then they are hardly worthwhile in any case.

Apple should move to comply immediately. With all the safeguards they can think to apply.

Short of that, jail time for the corporate officers and engineers who refuse is the only reasonable response.

Like anybody under such a court order, Apple has five days to file an appeal to have the order rescinded.  This signals that they will do that.

So either you were ignorant to that fact or you so hate Apple that you want them punished instantly whereas other companies and/or individuals would get their opportunity to fight the order.

boltsfan17 said:

hammerd2 said:

Has anybody bothered asking the FBI exactly what they're hoping to find, and what proof there is that any such information will actually be, on the phone. I think you Americans call it probable cause or something although I may have watched one too many police programmes for my own good.

As I said in the other thread, I think this is just a fishing expedition by the FBI to get public support/court order for a back door. I'm sure they already have the terrorists iCloud data along with their e-mails, texts, computer hard drives, etc. I'm sure there is nothing on this iPhone that the FBI doesn't already know. Since the crime already happened, the FBI just needed to have a federal/local judge sign off on a search warrant to seize property (iPhone) for the investigation. It doesn't matter if there is something of value or not on the phone.

After a murder, any murder at all, not just a terrorist attack, it is common practice at crimes scenes to leave no stone unturned.  It doesn't matter whether you think you've already milked the information dry of all possible good leads, you still turn over all stones.  That's what the FBI is doing, and they are right to try to do it.  The only problem is they are NOT right to force Apple to build a tool to help them... especially a tool which could be misused later.

Alan Engle said:

Idea.  Give the phone to Apple, Apple gets the data off the phone, Apple gives the data to the FBI.  

Problem solved.

Then the current 200+ pending requests all get the same treatment by their judges.  Then such cases accelerate after that.

New problem.

hammerd2 said:

Has anybody bothered asking the FBI exactly what they're hoping to find, and what proof there is that any such information will actually be, on the phone. I think you Americans call it probable cause or something although I may have watched one too many police programmes for my own good.

I'm not on the Justice Department's side in all of this, but some misconceptions should be fixed:

First of all, my understanding is that the FBI has established probable cause and have obtained a warrant for this.  They just don't have the technical ability to perform the task.  It's like they have a warrant to search a house that is impossible to enter.  That should answer your second sentence.

Secondly, if you know that someone has committed a terrorist act (in this case, that particular person dies in a shootout with law enforcement) then it is reasonable to gather as much info as you can from their possessions, because there is a chance that it can lead you to other people that may be planning future attacks.  (That's probably the grounds upon which the FBI got its warrant to search the phone, and I don't think that's a bad thing at all.)  You do not need to know what you are going to find in advance.  You just hope you'll find something that may give you a chance to avert future bad events.  That should answer your first sentence.

So while I do sympthasize with the FBI and truly do hope they find a way to magically get into that phone - maybe they'll "win the lottery" and guess the right passcode before it wipes itself - I disagree with them forcing Apple to create a capability that facilitates brute force attack.  This case is quite unique since it involves a dead terrorist's phone and a proper warrant, but eventually another case will arise that some judge, somewhere, believes is worthy of demanding the same treatment.  And then another.  And then another.  Eventually, we will watch as the circumstances evolve from "dead terrorist's phone" to "suspected criminal's phone" to "person of interest".  Ultimately, law enforcement will simply acquire the means to do this without any Apple assistance, so we'll have to "trust" them only to do it with warrant in hand, much like wire tapping.  Not.