mr. h

Stabitha_Christie said:

mr. h said:

Stabitha_Christie said:

mr. h said:

SlimyYetSatisfying said:

No one should buy this.

Indeed. I have difficulty believing Apple have kept this around for any reason other than to make the new Air and the 14” MBP look like good deals.

Per Apple, this is the second best selling Mac in the line up. That is a pretty compelling reason to keep it around. 

I would expect that to change with the launch of the new Air. Yes, the M2 13" MBP has three minor advantages over the Air:
1. Longer battery life (20 hr vs 18 hr)
2. TouchBar (obviously only an advantage if you like the TouchBar)
3. Teeny tiny performance advantage due to fan enabling longer sustained running of CPU/GPU at max power

However, the Air has some compelling advantages that, I think for most people, tip the balance heavily in its favour:
1. 27% Smaller 
2. 11% Lighter
3. Larger screen
4. Better webcam
5. No TouchBar (plenty of people don't like the TouchBar)
6. MagSafe
7. Wider range of colours
8. Probably better sound, but we'll have to wait for reviews to confirm
9. Completely silent operation
10. Cheaper

The majority of your advantages were the same with the M1 MBA and MBP 

No. This is not correct.

1. M1 Air is only 9% smaller than 13" MBP
2. M1 Air is 8% lighter
3. M1 Air screen is the same size and less bright
4. M1 Air webcam is not better
5. -
6. M1 Air doesn't have MagSafe
7. M1 Air only has one additional colour
8. M1 Air doesn't have better sound
9. -
10. -

So, only three of the ten advantages I listed applied to the M1 air vs. the 13" MBP. And on top of that, the M1 MBP had a larger performance advantage over the M1 Air, because it had an extra GPU core. Compared to the 13" MBP, the new Air is a much more compelling alternative and that's my point.

Stabitha_Christie said:

mr. h said:

Stabitha_Christie said:

mr. h said:

Stabitha_Christie said:

mr. h said:

Stabitha_Christie said:

mr. h said:

SlimyYetSatisfying said:

No one should buy this.

Indeed. I have difficulty believing Apple have kept this around for any reason other than to make the new Air and the 14” MBP look like good deals.

Per Apple, this is the second best selling Mac in the line up. That is a pretty compelling reason to keep it around. 

I would expect that to change with the launch of the new Air. Yes, the M2 13" MBP has three minor advantages over the Air:
1. Longer battery life (20 hr vs 18 hr)
2. TouchBar (obviously only an advantage if you like the TouchBar)
3. Teeny tiny performance advantage due to fan enabling longer sustained running of CPU/GPU at max power

However, the Air has some compelling advantages that, I think for most people, tip the balance heavily in its favour:
1. 27% Smaller 
2. 11% Lighter
3. Larger screen
4. Better webcam
5. No TouchBar (plenty of people don't like the TouchBar)
6. MagSafe
7. Wider range of colours
8. Probably better sound, but we'll have to wait for reviews to confirm
9. Completely silent operation
10. Cheaper

My point is there is clearly a market for the 13 inch MBP. How do I know that? Because it's the second best selling computer in the Mac lineup.

Yes, second best selling in the absence of the new Air, which is what I was comparing it to. Before, I could see the point (just about) of buying the 13" MBP over an Air. But now, I just don't see why any significant number of people would chose the 13" MBP over the new Air. Are there enough people who do no research and just "assume" that it's better because it's a "Pro" not an "Air", or who simply must have a TouchBar?

I don't know why but people really struggle with this. You are assuming your needs and wants in a computer align with the average Mac buyer

No, I'm doing no such thing. I have a 16" M1 MBP. I am attempting to make an objective comparison between the 13" MBP and the new Air. You saw my lists. Where is the mistake? Where is the opinion?

For the avoidance of doubt, by "where is the opinion", I mean in the lists themselves. Clearly I have offered the opinion, based on the factual lists, that for the vast majority of people the pros of the Air should outweigh the cons, and the sales of the 13" MBP are going to fall, in favour of the new Air, and perhaps the 14" MBP. Now, perhaps that opinion is wrong. But if it is, someone is going to have to explain to me what the appeal is of the MBP over the new Air. Is it the TouchBar? 2 Hours battery life? 5% better performance?

I responded to your list above, most of it was applicable to the the M1 MBA vs. the M1 13" MBP.

"But if it is, someone is going to have to explain to me what the appeal is of the MBP over the new Air. Is it the TouchBar?"

Why do you feel anyone owes you an explanation for their purchasing? That is bonkers. It is their money and their decision. It has zero impact on you. 

My point is and remains, there is clearly a market for the the 13" MBP. You and I aren't the market and we don't get it but It wouldn't be a best seller if there was no market. This is a factual as you would say. It is really strange that stating that bothers you so much. 

It doesn't really bother me. You and I are having an enjoyable and illuminating debate; well, that's how I see it anyway.

It again appears that you have missed my central point. The 13" MBP was popular. Now, there is a new Air to compare it to. I have stated a case as to why I think demand for the 13" MBP will go down, now that there is this new Air to compare it to.

It also appears you took my "someone will have to explain to me" comment rather too literally. Of course no-one owes me such an explanation. It's just a colloquial method of emphasising one's incredulity. Since you are here discussing this with me, perhaps I was hoping that you might offer an analysis/opinion on how/why 13" MBP demand will be sustained in light of the new Air existing, beyond just "it was popular in the past, therefore it will continue to be popular in the future. End of story"

Stabitha_Christie said:

mr. h said:

Stabitha_Christie said:

mr. h said:

Stabitha_Christie said:

mr. h said:

SlimyYetSatisfying said:

No one should buy this.

Indeed. I have difficulty believing Apple have kept this around for any reason other than to make the new Air and the 14” MBP look like good deals.

Per Apple, this is the second best selling Mac in the line up. That is a pretty compelling reason to keep it around. 

I would expect that to change with the launch of the new Air. Yes, the M2 13" MBP has three minor advantages over the Air:
1. Longer battery life (20 hr vs 18 hr)
2. TouchBar (obviously only an advantage if you like the TouchBar)
3. Teeny tiny performance advantage due to fan enabling longer sustained running of CPU/GPU at max power

However, the Air has some compelling advantages that, I think for most people, tip the balance heavily in its favour:
1. 27% Smaller 
2. 11% Lighter
3. Larger screen
4. Better webcam
5. No TouchBar (plenty of people don't like the TouchBar)
6. MagSafe
7. Wider range of colours
8. Probably better sound, but we'll have to wait for reviews to confirm
9. Completely silent operation
10. Cheaper

My point is there is clearly a market for the 13 inch MBP. How do I know that? Because it's the second best selling computer in the Mac lineup.

Yes, second best selling in the absence of the new Air, which is what I was comparing it to. Before, I could see the point (just about) of buying the 13" MBP over an Air. But now, I just don't see why any significant number of people would chose the 13" MBP over the new Air. Are there enough people who do no research and just "assume" that it's better because it's a "Pro" not an "Air", or who simply must have a TouchBar?

I don't know why but people really struggle with this. You are assuming your needs and wants in a computer align with the average Mac buyer

No, I'm doing no such thing. I have a 16" M1 MBP. I am attempting to make an objective comparison between the 13" MBP and the new Air. You saw my lists. Where is the mistake? Where is the opinion?

For the avoidance of doubt, by "where is the opinion", I mean in the lists themselves. Clearly I have offered the opinion, based on the factual lists, that for the vast majority of people the pros of the Air should outweigh the cons, and the sales of the 13" MBP are going to fall, in favour of the new Air, and perhaps the 14" MBP. Now, perhaps that opinion is wrong. But if it is, someone is going to have to explain to me what the appeal is of the MBP over the new Air. Is it the TouchBar? 2 Hours battery life? 5% better performance?

Stabitha_Christie said:

mr. h said:

SlimyYetSatisfying said:

No one should buy this.

Indeed. I have difficulty believing Apple have kept this around for any reason other than to make the new Air and the 14” MBP look like good deals.

Per Apple, this is the second best selling Mac in the line up. That is a pretty compelling reason to keep it around. 

I would expect that to change with the launch of the new Air. Yes, the M2 13" MBP has three minor advantages over the Air:
1. Longer battery life (20 hr vs 18 hr)
2. TouchBar (obviously only an advantage if you like the TouchBar)
3. Teeny tiny performance advantage due to fan enabling longer sustained running of CPU/GPU at max power

However, the Air has some compelling advantages that, I think for most people, tip the balance heavily in its favour:
1. 27% Smaller 
2. 11% Lighter
3. Larger screen
4. Better webcam
5. No TouchBar (plenty of people don't like the TouchBar)
6. MagSafe
7. Wider range of colours
8. Probably better sound, but we'll have to wait for reviews to confirm
9. Completely silent operation
10. Cheaper

jdw said:

On some level, the more options available to savvy consumers, the better in regards to getting the right Mac for the job.  But on the other hand, a more complex product lineup makes it harder to choose.  I still wonder what Steve would do if he was here.  When Steve came back to Apple in the 1990's, he took an axe to the Newton and all the complexity of the Mac product line to simply it.  I'm therefore torn in how I feel.  I like options personally, but the Mac landscape seems to be getting overly complex, especially with the existence of the 13" MacBook which hasn't had a design update and therefore still offers the TouchBar, which Apple has largely phased out.  This adds a bit of confusion to the product lineup.

Steve did that for two inter-related reasons:
1. The lineup was a convoluted mess that confused customers 
2. Apple was having severe inventory management and cash flow problems due to difficulty predicting which models would sell best

Really, he had no choice as Apple would have died if he hadn’t done it.

The situation today is different:
Apple’s user base is massively larger and generally more tech literate; plus there are more free resources available (e.g. YouTube) to help people select the right model. Apple is also in rude financial health so could easily afford a demand mis-prediction, and in any case supply chains are generally more flexible now (excluding temporary Covid-induced hiccups of course) and demand can be responded to more dynamically.

Finally, having said all that, Apple’s lineup is still a damn sight more intelligible than many competitors. Have you been to the Dell, HP, Acer or Asus websites lately?