Every touch remote I've used has been absolutely terrible.
They are great when queuing up a music playlist or surfing the TV guide and selecting shows to record (i.e. controlling extra functions not displayed on the sceen), but for the day-to-day functions on a TV they suck. A lot.
Although it's nice to be able to control the TV without pointing ones hand at the screen, constantly switching ones focus between the TV and the touch screen (to see what options are available) is a terrible user experience.
Apple could probably get around it by displaying an on-screen menu and highlighting when you are pressing on the screen, or by implementing gestures, but at the end of the day they would still be trying to cram a square peg into a round hole.
Their best bet would be something like the current Apple TV remote with added accelerometer/gyroscope and the ability to treat it like a pointer. See this patent.
I still think there is a place for iDevice integration with Apple TV, especially if it had access to cable. Browsing the TV guide, setting the recording schedule, gaming, displaying extra show information (like the show website, behind the scenes footage, actor information etc) and "social TV" (stuff like showing what your friends are currently watching or have watched, programs they recommend and if-you-like-this-you-may-also-like information).
All of this and more could be accessed with a touch screen device sync'd with the Apple TV, but that doesn't mean Apple should try and force the touch screen as the remote.
A click wheel-based device and an on-screen menu could work. You wouldn't have to look at the remote control at all.
But, as we've been discussing, how do you control the apps? Do you make it a requirement that you have to own an iPhone, iPad or Touch? Because Apple won't do that.
Until there's a remote that is both simple to use and can do a reasonable job of replicating the iOS touch experience, Apple won't be selling Apple TV apps.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brometheus
A click wheel-based device and an on-screen menu could work. You wouldn't have to look at the remote control at all.
As mentioned earlier, I am using a Magic Trackpad to run Angry Birds on an iMac.
A Magic Trackpad or a Magic Mouse-like device would be inexpensive and work for any apps where the user looks at the big screen (TV) and does not need to look at the remote device,
This should include any game apps that run on the Mac that use a mouse or a trackpad as a controller.
IMO, a click wheel would be less easy to use than the multitouch Magic Trackpad.
Apple needs to address this issue soon. They also need to step up content acquisition and build subscription services for both music and TV content.
i don't think apple has much to worry about here. samsung couldn't make a good user interface in 50 years....love their tv's as tv's..hate every software interface on every device i own by them.
A Magic Trackpad or a Magic Mouse-like device would be inexpensive and work for any apps where the user looks at the big screen (TV) and does not need to look at the remote device,
This should include any game apps that run on the Mac that use a mouse or a trackpad as a controller.
IMO, a click wheel would be less easy to use than the multitouch Magic Trackpad.
.
How do envision the common remote functions (channel up/down, volume up/down, view guide, play, pause, mute, skip forward/back etc) working with a Magic Trackpad.
i don't think apple has much to worry about here. samsung couldn't make a good user interface in 50 years....love their tv's as tv's..hate every software interface on every device i own by them.
I am not suggesting that they need to do these things in response to Samsung; rather, they need to do them to advance their own living room strategy.
You know, iOS Apple TV reportedly has the Bluetooth HW functionality -- maybe Apple will enable it shortly enabling a new world of possibilities...
As I recall, the chip that also supplies WiFi also contains BT. This could have been the cheapest method seeing as how they already use 10s of millions of these in other iDevices or it could be a sign of things to come.
I think the 16GB NAND is the only HW feature that can?t be justified as cost savings without any future use.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Firefly7475
How do envision the common remote functions (channel up/down, volume up/down, view guide, play, pause, mute, skip forward/back etc) working with a Magic Trackpad.
I think he was just using it as an example of controlling a game with a separate touch-based device whilst looking at a separate screen in an attempt to mimic how a touched-based controller might work for future apps. I think one would use a touch-based controller with visual feedback to know where the virtual buttons are, or just use the remote it come with.
How do envision the common remote functions (channel up/down, volume up/down, view guide, play, pause, mute, skip forward/back etc) working with a Magic Trackpad.
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism
I think he was just using it as an example of controlling a game with a separate touch-based device whilst looking at a separate screen in an attempt to mimic how a touched-based controller might work for future apps. I think one would use a touch-based controller with visual feedback to know where the virtual buttons are, or just use the remote it come with.
You are making this way too complicated!
How do you do these things with the ATV remote?
How do you do these things on an iMac with a mouse?
The answer: The same way you do it on a Magic Trackpad -- watch the screen and move/press your fingers.
How do you do these things on an iMac with a mouse?
The answer: The same way you do it on a Magic Trackpad -- watch the screen and move/press your fingers.
Then I did misread your intent. The problem with your solution is it requires a mouse pointer on the primary display. That will not happen! That is the one of the primary problems with HTPCs.
Samsung and Sony have captured the living room with Blu-ray and Internet downloads. Apple made a huge mistake in not embracing Blu-ray if they thought to capture the living room experience. History will note that this was a huge mistake.
The problem with your solution is it requires a mouse pointer on the primary display. That will not happen! That is the one of the primary problems with HTPCs.
Why? With the ATV remote you have a surrounding-box cursor -- that can be handled by software. We don't need an always-in-play mouse pointer -- rather, a pointer that stays put until you move it -- ala touch and drag.
The iPad has an invisible cursor: touch (get position) drag....
A touchpad has a visible cursor: touch... Drag to position... Tap to get position (drag)...
Why? With the ATV remote you have a surrounding-box cursor -- that can be handled by software. We don't need an always-in-play mouse pointer -- rather, a pointer that stays put until you move it -- ala touch and drag.
The iPad has an invisible cursor: touch (get position) drag....
A touchpad has a visible cursor: touch... Drag to position... Tap to get position (drag)...
Slightly more involved... Yet intuitive!
Okay, I see your point. There are those directional boxed selectors (do they have an official name?), but I still can?t see a multi-touch input device with no visual output being the way you control a TV. It?s never worked well before. I say this need to be redesigned from the ground up to not act like a PC connected to a TV if it?s expected to crack this nut.
Okay, I see your point. There are those directional boxed selectors (do they have an official name?), but I still can?t see a multi-touch input device with no visual output being the way you control a TV. It?s never worked well before. I say this need to be redesigned from the ground up to not act like a PC connected to a TV if it?s expected to crack this nut.
Why? With the ATV remote you have a surrounding-box cursor -- that can be handled by software. We don't need an always-in-play mouse pointer -- rather, a pointer that stays put until you move it -- ala touch and drag.
The iPad has an invisible cursor: touch (get position) drag....
A touchpad has a visible cursor: touch... Drag to position... Tap to get position (drag)...
Slightly more involved... Yet intuitive!
This will work for the most basic of games but Apple needs a solution that provides visible "hot spots" on the remote much like game console remote buttons for more advanced gameplay.
This will work for the most basic of games but Apple needs a solution that provides visible "hot spots" on the remote much like game console remote buttons for more advanced gameplay.
Nothing a few thousand new AppleTV OS APIs can?t resolve.
And I can't see them adding functionality to the Apple TV that requires you to have an iPhone, Touch or iPad. Obviously, they will do that in addition to whatever other solution they come up with, but an Apple TV that is dependent on another expensive device to be fully functional isn't Apple's style.
Airplay?
atv game (or other) apps don't necessarily have to be sold separately in it's own store. If you "airplay enable" an iOS game via the SDK then in theory you could have the aTV download the aTV app via the net when the iOS device is paired to the aTV for playing the iOS app.
All the aTV remote has to do is answer Yes or No to the request to pair and to download the aTV component to support the "airplay" enhancement.
Like how scrabble on the iPad can use an iPhone or touch as a tile rack. Except in this case the iOS app uses the aTV app for display and coordination when available.
To the user, the only user facing aTV apps are those like Netflix and other apps with simple UIs. These server apps are more like airplay capability for the iOS device.
atv game (or other) apps don't necessarily have to be sold separately in it's own store. If you "airplay enable" an iOS game via the SDK then in theory you could have the aTV download the aTV app via the net when the iOS device is paired to the aTV for playing the iOS app.
All the aTV remote has to do is answer Yes or No to the request to pair and to download the aTV component to support the "airplay" enhancement.
Like how scrabble on the iPad can use an iPhone or touch as a tile rack. Except in this case the iOS app uses the aTV app for display and coordination when available.
To the user, the only user facing aTV apps are those like Netflix and other apps with simple UIs. These server apps are more like airplay capability for the iOS device.
That makes sense, but doesn't it seem like Apple would still like to drive adoption of aTV by making it a game capable STB without needing to have an iOS device? It would seem like a missed opportunity, if the only missing piece was a cheap touch screen with basic graphics and WiFi/bluetooth.
A $99 iOS device attached to hundreds of millions of TVs would be such a huge asset for the platform that I can't imagine that Apple would hope for the best on that count (that either people will settle for limited functionality or they'll have another, more expensive iOS in the household). An aTV with full iOS functionality with the addition of a cheap or bundled remote that could replicate the touch screen experience would be a massive, massive win. All your iPad and iPhone apps on the family 52" LCD? They couldn't make them fast enough.
That makes sense, but doesn't it seem like Apple would still like to drive adoption of aTV by making it a game capable STB without needing to have an iOS device? It would seem like a missed opportunity, if the only missing piece was a cheap touch screen with basic graphics and WiFi/bluetooth.
A $99 iOS device attached to hundreds of millions of TVs would be such a huge asset for the platform that I can't imagine that Apple would hope for the best on that count (that either people will settle for limited functionality or they'll have another, more expensive iOS in the household). An aTV with full iOS functionality with the addition of a cheap or bundled remote that could replicate the touch screen experience would be a massive, massive win. All your iPad and iPhone apps on the family 52" LCD? They couldn't make them fast enough.
This mirrors my thinking. I had given Airplay a thought but I think it is not as easily marketed to the living room entertainment crowd - they understand a box connected to a TV with a remote. I'm basically thinking of technophobes who would have a hard time understanding why they need a phone or an iPad to control that box.
Comments
Every touch remote I've used has been absolutely terrible.
They are great when queuing up a music playlist or surfing the TV guide and selecting shows to record (i.e. controlling extra functions not displayed on the sceen), but for the day-to-day functions on a TV they suck. A lot.
Although it's nice to be able to control the TV without pointing ones hand at the screen, constantly switching ones focus between the TV and the touch screen (to see what options are available) is a terrible user experience.
Apple could probably get around it by displaying an on-screen menu and highlighting when you are pressing on the screen, or by implementing gestures, but at the end of the day they would still be trying to cram a square peg into a round hole.
Their best bet would be something like the current Apple TV remote with added accelerometer/gyroscope and the ability to treat it like a pointer. See this patent.
I still think there is a place for iDevice integration with Apple TV, especially if it had access to cable. Browsing the TV guide, setting the recording schedule, gaming, displaying extra show information (like the show website, behind the scenes footage, actor information etc) and "social TV" (stuff like showing what your friends are currently watching or have watched, programs they recommend and if-you-like-this-you-may-also-like information).
All of this and more could be accessed with a touch screen device sync'd with the Apple TV, but that doesn't mean Apple should try and force the touch screen as the remote.
A click wheel-based device and an on-screen menu could work. You wouldn't have to look at the remote control at all.
But, as we've been discussing, how do you control the apps? Do you make it a requirement that you have to own an iPhone, iPad or Touch? Because Apple won't do that.
Until there's a remote that is both simple to use and can do a reasonable job of replicating the iOS touch experience, Apple won't be selling Apple TV apps.
A click wheel-based device and an on-screen menu could work. You wouldn't have to look at the remote control at all.
As mentioned earlier, I am using a Magic Trackpad to run Angry Birds on an iMac.
http://forums.appleinsider.com/showt...76#post1780376
A Magic Trackpad or a Magic Mouse-like device would be inexpensive and work for any apps where the user looks at the big screen (TV) and does not need to look at the remote device,
This should include any game apps that run on the Mac that use a mouse or a trackpad as a controller.
IMO, a click wheel would be less easy to use than the multitouch Magic Trackpad.
.
Apple needs to address this issue soon. They also need to step up content acquisition and build subscription services for both music and TV content.
i don't think apple has much to worry about here. samsung couldn't make a good user interface in 50 years....love their tv's as tv's..hate every software interface on every device i own by them.
A click wheel-based device and an on-screen menu could work. You wouldn't have to look at the remote control at all.
the future is a kinect type interface. i shouldn't have to touch anything to navigate on the tele.
As mentioned earlier, I am using a Magic Trackpad to run Angry Birds on an iMac.
http://forums.appleinsider.com/showt...76#post1780376
A Magic Trackpad or a Magic Mouse-like device would be inexpensive and work for any apps where the user looks at the big screen (TV) and does not need to look at the remote device,
This should include any game apps that run on the Mac that use a mouse or a trackpad as a controller.
IMO, a click wheel would be less easy to use than the multitouch Magic Trackpad.
.
How do envision the common remote functions (channel up/down, volume up/down, view guide, play, pause, mute, skip forward/back etc) working with a Magic Trackpad.
i don't think apple has much to worry about here. samsung couldn't make a good user interface in 50 years....love their tv's as tv's..hate every software interface on every device i own by them.
I am not suggesting that they need to do these things in response to Samsung; rather, they need to do them to advance their own living room strategy.
You know, iOS Apple TV reportedly has the Bluetooth HW functionality -- maybe Apple will enable it shortly enabling a new world of possibilities...
As I recall, the chip that also supplies WiFi also contains BT. This could have been the cheapest method seeing as how they already use 10s of millions of these in other iDevices or it could be a sign of things to come.
I think the 16GB NAND is the only HW feature that can?t be justified as cost savings without any future use.
How do envision the common remote functions (channel up/down, volume up/down, view guide, play, pause, mute, skip forward/back etc) working with a Magic Trackpad.
I think he was just using it as an example of controlling a game with a separate touch-based device whilst looking at a separate screen in an attempt to mimic how a touched-based controller might work for future apps. I think one would use a touch-based controller with visual feedback to know where the virtual buttons are, or just use the remote it come with.
How do envision the common remote functions (channel up/down, volume up/down, view guide, play, pause, mute, skip forward/back etc) working with a Magic Trackpad.
I think he was just using it as an example of controlling a game with a separate touch-based device whilst looking at a separate screen in an attempt to mimic how a touched-based controller might work for future apps. I think one would use a touch-based controller with visual feedback to know where the virtual buttons are, or just use the remote it come with.
You are making this way too complicated!
How do you do these things with the ATV remote?
How do you do these things on an iMac with a mouse?
The answer: The same way you do it on a Magic Trackpad -- watch the screen and move/press your fingers.
You are making this way too complicated!
How do you do these things with the ATV remote?
How do you do these things on an iMac with a mouse?
The answer: The same way you do it on a Magic Trackpad -- watch the screen and move/press your fingers.
Then I did misread your intent. The problem with your solution is it requires a mouse pointer on the primary display. That will not happen! That is the one of the primary problems with HTPCs.
PS: I saw your post on Monday Note.
1080p vs 720p = big difference.
The problem with your solution is it requires a mouse pointer on the primary display. That will not happen! That is the one of the primary problems with HTPCs.
Why? With the ATV remote you have a surrounding-box cursor -- that can be handled by software. We don't need an always-in-play mouse pointer -- rather, a pointer that stays put until you move it -- ala touch and drag.
The iPad has an invisible cursor: touch (get position) drag....
A touchpad has a visible cursor: touch... Drag to position... Tap to get position (drag)...
Slightly more involved... Yet intuitive!
Why? With the ATV remote you have a surrounding-box cursor -- that can be handled by software. We don't need an always-in-play mouse pointer -- rather, a pointer that stays put until you move it -- ala touch and drag.
The iPad has an invisible cursor: touch (get position) drag....
A touchpad has a visible cursor: touch... Drag to position... Tap to get position (drag)...
Slightly more involved... Yet intuitive!
Okay, I see your point. There are those directional boxed selectors (do they have an official name?), but I still can?t see a multi-touch input device with no visual output being the way you control a TV. It?s never worked well before. I say this need to be redesigned from the ground up to not act like a PC connected to a TV if it?s expected to crack this nut.
Okay, I see your point. There are those directional boxed selectors (do they have an official name?), but I still can?t see a multi-touch input device with no visual output being the way you control a TV. It?s never worked well before. I say this need to be redesigned from the ground up to not act like a PC connected to a TV if it?s expected to crack this nut.
Agreed!
Boxcursors?
Why? With the ATV remote you have a surrounding-box cursor -- that can be handled by software. We don't need an always-in-play mouse pointer -- rather, a pointer that stays put until you move it -- ala touch and drag.
The iPad has an invisible cursor: touch (get position) drag....
A touchpad has a visible cursor: touch... Drag to position... Tap to get position (drag)...
Slightly more involved... Yet intuitive!
This will work for the most basic of games but Apple needs a solution that provides visible "hot spots" on the remote much like game console remote buttons for more advanced gameplay.
This will work for the most basic of games but Apple needs a solution that provides visible "hot spots" on the remote much like game console remote buttons for more advanced gameplay.
Nothing a few thousand new AppleTV OS APIs can?t resolve.
And I can't see them adding functionality to the Apple TV that requires you to have an iPhone, Touch or iPad. Obviously, they will do that in addition to whatever other solution they come up with, but an Apple TV that is dependent on another expensive device to be fully functional isn't Apple's style.
Airplay?
atv game (or other) apps don't necessarily have to be sold separately in it's own store. If you "airplay enable" an iOS game via the SDK then in theory you could have the aTV download the aTV app via the net when the iOS device is paired to the aTV for playing the iOS app.
All the aTV remote has to do is answer Yes or No to the request to pair and to download the aTV component to support the "airplay" enhancement.
Like how scrabble on the iPad can use an iPhone or touch as a tile rack. Except in this case the iOS app uses the aTV app for display and coordination when available.
To the user, the only user facing aTV apps are those like Netflix and other apps with simple UIs. These server apps are more like airplay capability for the iOS device.
Airplay?
atv game (or other) apps don't necessarily have to be sold separately in it's own store. If you "airplay enable" an iOS game via the SDK then in theory you could have the aTV download the aTV app via the net when the iOS device is paired to the aTV for playing the iOS app.
All the aTV remote has to do is answer Yes or No to the request to pair and to download the aTV component to support the "airplay" enhancement.
Like how scrabble on the iPad can use an iPhone or touch as a tile rack. Except in this case the iOS app uses the aTV app for display and coordination when available.
To the user, the only user facing aTV apps are those like Netflix and other apps with simple UIs. These server apps are more like airplay capability for the iOS device.
That makes sense, but doesn't it seem like Apple would still like to drive adoption of aTV by making it a game capable STB without needing to have an iOS device? It would seem like a missed opportunity, if the only missing piece was a cheap touch screen with basic graphics and WiFi/bluetooth.
A $99 iOS device attached to hundreds of millions of TVs would be such a huge asset for the platform that I can't imagine that Apple would hope for the best on that count (that either people will settle for limited functionality or they'll have another, more expensive iOS in the household). An aTV with full iOS functionality with the addition of a cheap or bundled remote that could replicate the touch screen experience would be a massive, massive win. All your iPad and iPhone apps on the family 52" LCD? They couldn't make them fast enough.
That makes sense, but doesn't it seem like Apple would still like to drive adoption of aTV by making it a game capable STB without needing to have an iOS device? It would seem like a missed opportunity, if the only missing piece was a cheap touch screen with basic graphics and WiFi/bluetooth.
A $99 iOS device attached to hundreds of millions of TVs would be such a huge asset for the platform that I can't imagine that Apple would hope for the best on that count (that either people will settle for limited functionality or they'll have another, more expensive iOS in the household). An aTV with full iOS functionality with the addition of a cheap or bundled remote that could replicate the touch screen experience would be a massive, massive win. All your iPad and iPhone apps on the family 52" LCD? They couldn't make them fast enough.
This mirrors my thinking. I had given Airplay a thought but I think it is not as easily marketed to the living room entertainment crowd - they understand a box connected to a TV with a remote. I'm basically thinking of technophobes who would have a hard time understanding why they need a phone or an iPad to control that box.