The following is not intended to be a slight on you or anyone else
Perhaps it would be more useful to compare suicide rates amongst similar Chinese firms as a starting point. Rather than simply comparing foxconn rates with the national average.
Why not one better: suicide rates among 18 - 30 year old Chinese who have left their villages to move into a city?
Do you have the data? Do you have a point? Indeed, do you even know what the conversation concerning Foxconn suicides is all about? Or, are you simply trivializing the issue of suicide (as you were accusing others of doing) for the sake of silly argumentation and being pretentious (which you admitted to being)?
Actually, as another member, who is a statistician, pointed out to me, the law of large numbers will take over at this point.
Only if the suicide rate at Foxconn was well above the national average would it be of any concern. When you are talking about a company that employs over 500,000 employees then you can just deduce that if the number of suicides is the same as or below the national average then it is a normal suicide rate and is to be expected.
Your statistician friend is exactly right.
hungover makes up for his lack of knowledge of statistics with a bit of Latin, though.
When you are talking about a company that employs over 500,000 employees then you can just deduce that if the number of suicides is the same as or below the national average then it is a normal suicide rate and is to be expected.
Foxconn had 920,000+ employees as of 2010. With all of the new factories they are opening up, it's probably around a million today, if not more.
I wonder if the person who is trying to make fun of my signature realizes that it uses the same color scheme and the same order of colors as found in the original from Apple.
So what are your credentials that makes you more of an expert than Mueller?
Furthermore, even if 90% of the Oracle suit was dismissed, how does that prove that Oracle can not hurt Google/Android? After all, as Microsoft says, it only takes one bullet.
You dont need a law degree to figure it out. Common sense is all that is required.
After reading the various responses to my early post, I have no choice but to conclude this is the biggest group of elite assholes I have ever met.
Why do you think I don't use any other forums? My 9,000 posts has got to be good for *something*...
Seriously though, not sure what happened in your case, we're not all that bad. In fact due to work comittments I always am a bit lost with the insulting, not sure what's been going on.
Suffice to say not all Apple users are the same.
Don't give up, I've specifically asked people like DaHarder, Gatorguy and so on to continue posting about Android/Samsung/Etc to keep us in touch with "the other side". Though I may be rough on those companies (but making sure not to attack those AI users) ~ it's interesting to see their perspective, as will be yours.
"Fanboisim is not an excuse for insensitivity or racism."
Additionally I cited examples that I considered to be inappropriate and or offensive.
I don't understand how you see that as justification for accusing me of cynically exploiting the suicides of Foxconn workers (for some further gain) and then asking me to prove a point about sucide rates that I never made in the first place.
So addressing your point in post 158
"Incidentally, laying the blame for suicides on Foxconn by using false statistics, innuendo, thin lines of reasoning, and conflating Apple with Foxconn in report after report (to drive who knows what political agenda) are perhaps the most cynical and insensitive use of suicides that I have seen."
Again, I ask where I have ever suggested a causal link between Foxconn and Apple?
All I have done is suggest that there is insufficient data/evidence to either confirm or deny any link.
The rest of your criticisms of me there after are moot given than the premise upon which they are based is flawed (with the possible exception of being pretentious, a flaw I had already alluded to).
I wonder if the person who is trying to make fun of my signature realizes that it uses the same color scheme and the same order of colors as found in the original from Apple.
What a clever boy you are. Did you do that all by yourself?
And yes, I did realise that it was a plagiarism of 1997 ad campaign that Jobs initially called crap, but thank you for letting me know.
Actually, Apple ][ is correct and not being racist at all.
I visit China on a regular basis. Many of Foxconn's employees come from the poorer, regional sections that rely heavily on farming. Fields, as he described, are all over the place. Unfortunately, they are easily affected by droughts.
In fact, in the majority of suicide cases throughout all of China, a large portion are caused from separation from family, not working conditions.
Were you not aware of this?
If you're going to call someone a racist, make sure you know what you're talking about, asshole.
Not sure I follow your point. You suggest that a large proportion of the majority (?)of suicides are attributable to separation. Are these the people that no longer work in the drought prone fields with their extended family. Do the Foxconn factories suffer drought? So industrialisation is the root cause of suicide?
???
Was this the point that Apple ][ was trying to make when he said he doesn't care a jot about Johnny Foreigner?
Actually, as another member, who is a statistician, pointed out to me, the law of large numbers will take over at this point.
Only if the suicide rate at Foxconn was well above the national average would it be of any concern. When you are talking about a company that employs over 500,000 employees then you can just deduce that if the number of suicides is the same as or below the national average then it is a normal suicide rate and is to be expected.
I would have hoped that your friend would have told you that in isolation, statistics are meaningless.
By way of an example; shark attacks increase as ice cream sales increase.
At no point have I claimed to be a statistician, nor have I claimed to be a sociologist with any special insight into suicide rates.
However, if you force me to continue to examine the question of suicide then I would assume that work conditions/income/living conditions etc are contributory factors. Based on those assumptions I would expect that people reputed to have better working conditions (etc) to be less likely to commit suicide than those seasonally facing hardship as the result of drought, for example. In such a scenario, given the significantly smaller base of workers with "superior conditions", parity with national rates would imply a serious problem.
Now as I keep having to stress I don't know what the rates are for China or Foxconn employees and thus I stress, yet again, that I do not know if Apples relationship with the Chinese economy had had any effect or not.
Questioning the methodology with which one arrives at an answer does not make the questioner an asshole, nor does it trivialise the hardships endured by the unfortunate friends and family of the suicided. Glibly stating that you don't give a sh!te about them does.
What more do you want me to say? I suspect that the majority of my detractors will only be happy if I say that as a direct consequence of Apple, Foxconn employees are better treated than anyone else in China. That is something I am not willing to do unless presented with compelling evidence.
hungover makes up for his lack of knowledge of statistics with a bit of Latin, though.
As an English speaker, I am inclined to use Latin from time to time, English is afterall loosly Romance based. Call me a pedant if you will. Oh hang on that's GREEK in derivation, opps.. does that make me pretentious (Latin orig)?
Would you rather I spoke Nadsat or limited myself to terms such as shucks?
As an English speaker, I am inclined to use Latin from time to time, English is afterall loosly Romance based. Call me a pedant if you will. Oh hang on that's GREEK in derivation, opps.. does that make me pretentious (Latin orig)?
Would you rather I spoke Nadsat or limited myself to terms such as shucks?
Er, Mr. English speaker, maybe just focus on English. (See bold italic above)
Just joshing, too much seriousness up in this thread.
I would have hoped that your friend would have told you that in isolation, statistics are meaningless.
By way of an example; shark attacks increase as ice cream sales increase.
At no point have I claimed to be a statistician, nor have I claimed to be a sociologist with any special insight into suicide rates.
However, if you force me to continue to examine the question of suicide then I would assume that work conditions/income/living conditions etc are contributory factors. Based on those assumptions I would expect that people reputed to have better working conditions (etc) to be less likely to commit suicide than those seasonally facing hardship as the result of drought, for example. In such a scenario, given the significantly smaller base of workers with "superior conditions", parity with national rates would imply a serious problem.
Now as I keep having to stress I don't know what the rates are for China or Foxconn employees and thus I stress, yet again, that I do not know if Apples relationship with the Chinese economy had had any effect or not.
Questioning the methodology with which one arrives at an answer does not make the questioner an asshole, nor does it trivialise the hardships endured by the unfortunate friends and family of the suicided. Glibly stating that you don't give a sh!te about them does.
What more do you want me to say? I suspect that the majority of my detractors will only be happy if I say that as a direct consequence of Apple, Foxconn employees are better treated than anyone else in China. That is something I am not willing to do unless presented with compelling evidence.
What a load of waffle. I doubt very much that you care about the workers in China - if you did you would be using your time a lot more fruitfully than spouting off on an apple-centric we forum.
What a load of waffle. I doubt very much that you care about the workers in China - if you did you would be using your time a lot more fruitfully than spouting off on an apple-centric we forum.
Maybe we need a new law similar to Godwins Law.
The Appleinsider law:- as the instances of fandroids being shown to be wrong in any given thread increases, the probability that the suicide rate in factories where Apple products are made being mentioned approaches 1.
Would this be the point that the thread becomes dead?
I would have hoped that your friend would have told you that in isolation, statistics are meaningless.
By way of an example; shark attacks increase as ice cream sales increase.
LOL
You just don't get it, do you.
I will repeat, though,
The statistics are only meaningless (according to your example) if the number of suicides is well above the national average. Any numbers that are equal to the national average show that the suicide rate is in a normal range. [we're talking about a hell of a lot of employees at Foxconn]
You sound as if you are saying that there is a possibility that the suicide level may be less at Foxconn and therefore Apple has had a positive effect on the people who have worked there.
With almost 1 million people working at Foxconn you should know that this is not an isolation case. An isolation case wold be if there was a higher suicide rate amongst a subset of the workers (ie. sweepers at Foxconn have higher suicide rates) and, if that were the case, then, because the suicide rate is at or below the national average overall yet much higher in one subset then we'd have to conclude that overall the suicide rate was much lower than average for the general population of people employed at Foxconn and therefore Apple is having a positive impact for these people.
[There was no fucking insult.... apparently you can say that people's comments are puerile but you are not allowed to say that someone's username is sophomoric... weird...]
Comments
The following is not intended to be a slight on you or anyone else
Perhaps it would be more useful to compare suicide rates amongst similar Chinese firms as a starting point. Rather than simply comparing foxconn rates with the national average.
Why not one better: suicide rates among 18 - 30 year old Chinese who have left their villages to move into a city?
Do you have the data? Do you have a point? Indeed, do you even know what the conversation concerning Foxconn suicides is all about? Or, are you simply trivializing the issue of suicide (as you were accusing others of doing) for the sake of silly argumentation and being pretentious (which you admitted to being)?
I didn't reply to the second paragraph in your earlier post (158) because it was not relevant to anything that I had said (see above).
Uh uh. See your own post, #133.
QED.
Actually, as another member, who is a statistician, pointed out to me, the law of large numbers will take over at this point.
Only if the suicide rate at Foxconn was well above the national average would it be of any concern. When you are talking about a company that employs over 500,000 employees then you can just deduce that if the number of suicides is the same as or below the national average then it is a normal suicide rate and is to be expected.
Your statistician friend is exactly right.
hungover makes up for his lack of knowledge of statistics with a bit of Latin, though.
When you are talking about a company that employs over 500,000 employees then you can just deduce that if the number of suicides is the same as or below the national average then it is a normal suicide rate and is to be expected.
Foxconn had 920,000+ employees as of 2010. With all of the new factories they are opening up, it's probably around a million today, if not more.
Net income\tUS$2.2 billion (2010)[1]
31.1% from 2008
Employees\t920,000+ (2010)[2]
Website\tfoxconn.com
I wonder if the person who is trying to make fun of my signature realizes that it uses the same color scheme and the same order of colors as found in the original from Apple.
Now THAT is thinking different!
So what are your credentials that makes you more of an expert than Mueller?
Furthermore, even if 90% of the Oracle suit was dismissed, how does that prove that Oracle can not hurt Google/Android? After all, as Microsoft says, it only takes one bullet.
You dont need a law degree to figure it out. Common sense is all that is required.
After reading the various responses to my early post, I have no choice but to conclude this is the biggest group of elite assholes I have ever met.
Why do you think I don't use any other forums? My 9,000 posts has got to be good for *something*...
Seriously though, not sure what happened in your case, we're not all that bad. In fact due to work comittments I always am a bit lost with the insulting, not sure what's been going on.
Suffice to say not all Apple users are the same.
Don't give up, I've specifically asked people like DaHarder, Gatorguy and so on to continue posting about Android/Samsung/Etc to keep us in touch with "the other side". Though I may be rough on those companies (but making sure not to attack those AI users) ~ it's interesting to see their perspective, as will be yours.
Uh uh. See your own post, #133.
QED.
???
In post 133 I said
"Fanboisim is not an excuse for insensitivity or racism."
Additionally I cited examples that I considered to be inappropriate and or offensive.
I don't understand how you see that as justification for accusing me of cynically exploiting the suicides of Foxconn workers (for some further gain) and then asking me to prove a point about sucide rates that I never made in the first place.
So addressing your point in post 158
"Incidentally, laying the blame for suicides on Foxconn by using false statistics, innuendo, thin lines of reasoning, and conflating Apple with Foxconn in report after report (to drive who knows what political agenda) are perhaps the most cynical and insensitive use of suicides that I have seen."
Again, I ask where I have ever suggested a causal link between Foxconn and Apple?
All I have done is suggest that there is insufficient data/evidence to either confirm or deny any link.
The rest of your criticisms of me there after are moot given than the premise upon which they are based is flawed (with the possible exception of being pretentious, a flaw I had already alluded to).
I wonder if the person who is trying to make fun of my signature realizes that it uses the same color scheme and the same order of colors as found in the original from Apple.
What a clever boy you are. Did you do that all by yourself?
And yes, I did realise that it was a plagiarism of 1997 ad campaign that Jobs initially called crap, but thank you for letting me know.
Bless your cotton socks.
Actually, Apple ][ is correct and not being racist at all.
I visit China on a regular basis. Many of Foxconn's employees come from the poorer, regional sections that rely heavily on farming. Fields, as he described, are all over the place. Unfortunately, they are easily affected by droughts.
In fact, in the majority of suicide cases throughout all of China, a large portion are caused from separation from family, not working conditions.
Were you not aware of this?
If you're going to call someone a racist, make sure you know what you're talking about, asshole.
Not sure I follow your point. You suggest that a large proportion of the majority (?)of suicides are attributable to separation. Are these the people that no longer work in the drought prone fields with their extended family. Do the Foxconn factories suffer drought? So industrialisation is the root cause of suicide?
???
Was this the point that Apple ][ was trying to make when he said he doesn't care a jot about Johnny Foreigner?
Your statistician friend is exactly right.
Would that be 100% of the time? Or based on the probability of large numbers?
Actually, as another member, who is a statistician, pointed out to me, the law of large numbers will take over at this point.
Only if the suicide rate at Foxconn was well above the national average would it be of any concern. When you are talking about a company that employs over 500,000 employees then you can just deduce that if the number of suicides is the same as or below the national average then it is a normal suicide rate and is to be expected.
I would have hoped that your friend would have told you that in isolation, statistics are meaningless.
By way of an example; shark attacks increase as ice cream sales increase.
At no point have I claimed to be a statistician, nor have I claimed to be a sociologist with any special insight into suicide rates.
However, if you force me to continue to examine the question of suicide then I would assume that work conditions/income/living conditions etc are contributory factors. Based on those assumptions I would expect that people reputed to have better working conditions (etc) to be less likely to commit suicide than those seasonally facing hardship as the result of drought, for example. In such a scenario, given the significantly smaller base of workers with "superior conditions", parity with national rates would imply a serious problem.
Now as I keep having to stress I don't know what the rates are for China or Foxconn employees and thus I stress, yet again, that I do not know if Apples relationship with the Chinese economy had had any effect or not.
Questioning the methodology with which one arrives at an answer does not make the questioner an asshole, nor does it trivialise the hardships endured by the unfortunate friends and family of the suicided. Glibly stating that you don't give a sh!te about them does.
What more do you want me to say? I suspect that the majority of my detractors will only be happy if I say that as a direct consequence of Apple, Foxconn employees are better treated than anyone else in China. That is something I am not willing to do unless presented with compelling evidence.
hungover makes up for his lack of knowledge of statistics with a bit of Latin, though.
As an English speaker, I am inclined to use Latin from time to time, English is afterall loosly Romance based. Call me a pedant if you will. Oh hang on that's GREEK in derivation, opps.. does that make me pretentious (Latin orig)?
Would you rather I spoke Nadsat or limited myself to terms such as shucks?
As an English speaker, I am inclined to use Latin from time to time, English is afterall loosly Romance based. Call me a pedant if you will. Oh hang on that's GREEK in derivation, opps.. does that make me pretentious (Latin orig)?
Would you rather I spoke Nadsat or limited myself to terms such as shucks?
Er, Mr. English speaker, maybe just focus on English.
Just joshing, too much seriousness up in this thread.
Er, Mr. English speaker, maybe just focus on English.
Just joshing, too much seriousness up in this thread.
My spelling sux (although it is much worse in other languages).
Tnx
Just waiting for the next erroneous claim levelled at me.
Ho hum...
I would have hoped that your friend would have told you that in isolation, statistics are meaningless.
By way of an example; shark attacks increase as ice cream sales increase.
At no point have I claimed to be a statistician, nor have I claimed to be a sociologist with any special insight into suicide rates.
However, if you force me to continue to examine the question of suicide then I would assume that work conditions/income/living conditions etc are contributory factors. Based on those assumptions I would expect that people reputed to have better working conditions (etc) to be less likely to commit suicide than those seasonally facing hardship as the result of drought, for example. In such a scenario, given the significantly smaller base of workers with "superior conditions", parity with national rates would imply a serious problem.
Now as I keep having to stress I don't know what the rates are for China or Foxconn employees and thus I stress, yet again, that I do not know if Apples relationship with the Chinese economy had had any effect or not.
Questioning the methodology with which one arrives at an answer does not make the questioner an asshole, nor does it trivialise the hardships endured by the unfortunate friends and family of the suicided. Glibly stating that you don't give a sh!te about them does.
What more do you want me to say? I suspect that the majority of my detractors will only be happy if I say that as a direct consequence of Apple, Foxconn employees are better treated than anyone else in China. That is something I am not willing to do unless presented with compelling evidence.
What a load of waffle. I doubt very much that you care about the workers in China - if you did you would be using your time a lot more fruitfully than spouting off on an apple-centric we forum.
What a load of waffle. I doubt very much that you care about the workers in China - if you did you would be using your time a lot more fruitfully than spouting off on an apple-centric we forum.
Maybe we need a new law similar to Godwins Law.
The Appleinsider law:- as the instances of fandroids being shown to be wrong in any given thread increases, the probability that the suicide rate in factories where Apple products are made being mentioned approaches 1.
Would this be the point that the thread becomes dead?
I would have hoped that your friend would have told you that in isolation, statistics are meaningless.
By way of an example; shark attacks increase as ice cream sales increase.
LOL
You just don't get it, do you.
I will repeat, though,
The statistics are only meaningless (according to your example) if the number of suicides is well above the national average. Any numbers that are equal to the national average show that the suicide rate is in a normal range. [we're talking about a hell of a lot of employees at Foxconn]
You sound as if you are saying that there is a possibility that the suicide level may be less at Foxconn and therefore Apple has had a positive effect on the people who have worked there.
With almost 1 million people working at Foxconn you should know that this is not an isolation case. An isolation case wold be if there was a higher suicide rate amongst a subset of the workers (ie. sweepers at Foxconn have higher suicide rates) and, if that were the case, then, because the suicide rate is at or below the national average overall yet much higher in one subset then we'd have to conclude that overall the suicide rate was much lower than average for the general population of people employed at Foxconn and therefore Apple is having a positive impact for these people.
[There was no fucking insult.... apparently you can say that people's comments are puerile but you are not allowed to say that someone's username is sophomoric... weird...]
Just waiting for the next erroneous claim levelled at me.
.
You are a poopy-head.