It's such a shame that Hydra won't support tabbed editing.
n their FAQ, they state that 'Tabbed editing seems to be an interesting idea, but at the moment it doesn't really fit into Cocoa's mulit-document architecture, which we don't want to harm by doing something like this.' (typo theirs).
Not adding such a killer feature (tabs) because of nearly-religious beliefs in Apple's OS X guidelines is not the best thing to do IMHO.
Even Apple themselves seem to have moved from their 'classic OS X' guidelines to a new, mixed and less radical interface. Generalization of brushed aluminium in their apps and, above all, tabbed browsing in Safari are steps in this (right) direction.
Another thing that bugs me with Hydra is its chat system: il relies on iChat, which is of course the right thing to do, but Hydra and iChat aren't well integrated: having a window for editing changes (Hydra) and another one (iChat) for commenting them is quickly becoming a pain in the ass. You quickly end up chatting in the edition window: welcome to Hell!
So here's my little contribution to the establishment of a Better World?. This is a screen make-up I photoshopped where I arbitrarily took the best of UltraEdit (Windows), Hydra, Safari and even a (forthcoming) IRC client and sticked them together. I hope that will give ideas to cocoa-knowledgable brains around here. Or even to that Hydra team <G>.
This is a screen make-up I photoshopped where I arbitrarily took the best of UltraEdit (Windows), Hydra, Safari and even a (forthcoming) IRC client and sticked them together.
You know, in 1984, working on only one document on the Macintosh was a great thing. And It was only running one application at one time... and today, we're in 2003.
Do you think it's great to switch between each documents with the "Window" menu ? Or by searching them in the dock between
some other minimised windows from many other apps ? Or by moving your front window and search the other document's window on the screen ?
And, do you think that ALL of Windows' GUI is bad? I don't think so. There are some great ideas in Linux and Windows GUI. The only problem is that they're making a mess with them and that they are incoherent.
You know, in 1984, working on only one document on the Macintosh was a great thing. And It was only running one application at one time... and today, we're in 2003.
And you know what? Working on System 1 through 7 was much more fun, because applications were actually designed well.
...and today, we have lots of ports, REALbasic-based cheapware, an oooh-it-has-funny-looking-effects Office v.X, and, of course, TabbedBrowsing.
Quote:
Do you think it's great to switch between each documents with the "Window" menu ?
No.
Quote:
Or by searching them in the dock between
some other minimised windows from many other apps ?
No. I demand optical feedback (meaning a simple GUI) from Apple for Cmd-~ window switching.
Quote:
Or by moving your front window and search the other document's window on the screen ?
Actually, with reasonably-sized windows, that works well.
Quote:
And, do you think that ALL of Windows' GUI is bad?
No. I work more with Windows than with Mac OS X. Yet I know that Mac OS' GUI is, and has always been, way superior.
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I don't think so. There are some great ideas in Linux and Windows GUI. The only problem is that they're making a mess with them and that they are incoherent.
Not sure what you mean by Linux GUI - it's a kernel. You might mean KDE or GNOME (they don't have anything to do with Linux except that they run on it, but they run on almost any other OS, too). KDE and GNOME, for me, are two funny spare time experiments to take the best of Mac OS' and Windows' GUIs, and add on lots of features that might be of use (when they mostly are just in the way). Even Windows' GUI is far better than KDE and GNOME.
And you know what? Working on System 1 through 7 was much more fun, because applications were actually designed well.
...and today, we have lots of ports, REALbasic-based cheapware, an oooh-it-has-funny-looking-effects Office v.X, and, of course, TabbedBrowsing.
I haven't say that Office v.X was a great well designed product.
Don't forget something. TabbedBrowsing and what I've designed on that make-up is for "power users" So it's an option. Like Safari.
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Originally posted by Chucker
No. I demand optical feedback (meaning a simple GUI) from Apple for Cmd-~ window switching.
You want what ? Tabs are not enough easy for you ?
Having something optical that switch between non grouped windows (like here on the make up), can only looks like tabs...
But you want something external of a windows app ? like the hmmmm Windows' Taskbar ?
Quote:
Originally posted by Chucker
Actually, with reasonably-sized windows, that works well.
If you're think of what Hydra is meant to do, you'll quick understand that editing text is not great to do in a tiny window on the coner of you you're screen.
Quote:
Originally posted by Chucker
No. I work more with Windows than with Mac OS X. Yet I know that Mac OS' GUI is, and has always been, way superior.
I haven't contest that. I was talking about ideas
Quote:
Originally posted by Chucker
Not sure what you mean by Linux GUI - it's a kernel. You might mean KDE or GNOME (they don't have anything to do with Linux except that they run on it, but they run on almost any other OS, too). KDE and GNOME, for me, are two funny spare time experiments to take the best of Mac OS' and Windows' GUIs, and add on lots of features that might be of use (when they mostly are just in the way). Even Windows' GUI is far better than KDE and GNOME.
I'm not stupid... so why don't you talking about Aqua that run over Darwin using Quartz engine ? hum ?
You want what ? Tabs are not enough easy for you ?
I want useful window management, not alternatives to it.
Quote:
Having something optical that switch between non grouped windows (like here on the make up), can only looks like tabs...
I am talking about windows, not tabs. Tabs are a bad idea.
Quote:
But you want something external of a windows app ? like the hmmmm Windows' Taskbar ?
Yes, but more cleverly-designed.
Quote:
If you're think of what Hydra is meant to do, you'll quick understand that editing text is not great to do in a tiny window on the coner of you you're screen.
Umm. Hydra is a simple text editor whose main strength is collaborative working. Window management is the window manager's domain, as the name implies. Not the application's.
Quote:
I'm not stupid... so why don't you talking about Aqua that run over Darwin using Quartz engine ? hum ?
Right now, the main problem with any tabbed interface on OS X — including Safari's — is that they're completely DIY, and they require that the application do window management. This is exactly the kind of inconsistency- and bug- introducing makework that OS X was supposed to free us from having to do in the first place. Even people who like the tabbed interface in Safari acknowledge that there are sharp corners and things that haven't been thought through yet, and there are all kinds of ambiguities, like the expected behavior of Command-N, Command-O and Command-W, introduced because all of a sudden a window is not a document and a document is not a window, and 17 years of elegant consistency is moot.
I despise MDI on principle, but I will grudgingly accept it on OS X if and only if:
1) the creation and management of subwindows becomes the responsibility of the Window Manager (which, in turn, would allow for system-standard ways to interact with them).
2) These windows do not recycle the tab widget, which is meant to organize static forms, but introduce a new "subwindow" widget like the one in the screenshot above, or (better) like Safari's.
3) Apple sits down and thinks all the way through the implication of turning a window into a folder of sorts. The document-based application becomes a special case of a larger, more complex system that has to be accomodated unambiguously in the menu selections and keyboard shortcuts, and presented in a way that is logical and intuitive, and which scales down to the more natural document=window paradigm so that the added complexity of MDI only clutters up the rest of the interface when it has to.
In any other case, MDI is not only complex and inelegant, but an ugly, inconsistent hack.
I can't see those three points happening (i.e. I can't think of an acceptable, comfortable, elegant way of consistently handling "sub-windows").
As said, one implementation of elegant window-switching would be a Dock-like translucent panel in the middle of the main screen that only appears during Cmd-~. Like the Dock's minimize pane, it uses thumbnails of the windows, or, in special cases, different icons (like buddy icons in iChat). Like the Dock, it shows the name of the currently selected window. Like the Dock, it also optionally hightlights the selection using magnification.
Of course, there are also different ways to do this, like the already existant - albeit inconsistent in certain apps - Window menu, or the - also inconsistent or even non-existant, like in Proteus, for instance - Dock icon's window list.
What I don't want is window management to become hierarchical, because implementing that is too difficult and has yet to be achieved in an elegant way (and it'll take a lot to convince me).
Benjamin Frere, where were you during the great tabs debate? It's an old thread about an earlier build of Safari. This topic caused so much arguement that it reached 4 pages over night. But anyway, why bother to use tabs when just hitting 'Command ~' is easier tp switch windows? I used to feel the same way about tabs, but after the last huge tabs debate, I just decided that different windows are more efficient and consistent with how the Macintosh interface should behave. Heh, ask Eugene, he'll write you an essay
And I don't know if you knew that, but command-~ doesn't work very well with non qwerty keybord. On french mac keyboards for example, ~ is a dead key. So, you type option-n, and you must type another character. So the command-~ can't work.
Not if it's also available as menu item(s), as I've mentioned before.
Quote:
And I don't know if you knew that, but command-~ doesn't work very well with non qwerty keybord. On french mac keyboards for example, ~ is a dead key. So, you type option-n, and you must type another character. So the command-~ can't work.
On most international keyboards, it's Command-< / Command->. Oh and, as a German, I do know that.
Tabbed browsing has little do with good text editors! Anyway, having seen the light I couldn't go back. Using tabs one can always see the headers of his/her open pages. Why should one need to use cmd-tab (or whatever) just to look what pages one has open. Tabs are a very nice application of the principle of "overview-beside-detail" - usability research makes big noise about that.
Second, opening my dozen daily bookmarks with one click to tabs is just great. One click, not a dozen.
My main problem with tabs is that I can not figure out how to switch between tabs without using my mouse. It frustrates me to the extent that I just use multiple windows and command tilde.
If I could switch between tabs with a simple keyboard shortcut, I would not object to them. Though I do think they mesh poorly with macintosh design principles, practical matters are the only reason I am really opposed to tabs.
Comments
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It's such a shame that Hydra won't support tabbed editing.
n their FAQ, they state that 'Tabbed editing seems to be an interesting idea, but at the moment it doesn't really fit into Cocoa's mulit-document architecture, which we don't want to harm by doing something like this.' (typo theirs).
Not adding such a killer feature (tabs) because of nearly-religious beliefs in Apple's OS X guidelines is not the best thing to do IMHO.
Even Apple themselves seem to have moved from their 'classic OS X' guidelines to a new, mixed and less radical interface. Generalization of brushed aluminium in their apps and, above all, tabbed browsing in Safari are steps in this (right) direction.
Another thing that bugs me with Hydra is its chat system: il relies on iChat, which is of course the right thing to do, but Hydra and iChat aren't well integrated: having a window for editing changes (Hydra) and another one (iChat) for commenting them is quickly becoming a pain in the ass. You quickly end up chatting in the edition window: welcome to Hell!
So here's my little contribution to the establishment of a Better World?. This is a screen make-up I photoshopped where I arbitrarily took the best of UltraEdit (Windows), Hydra, Safari and even a (forthcoming) IRC client and sticked them together. I hope that will give ideas to cocoa-knowledgable brains around here. Or even to that Hydra team <G>.
Now that's what I'd call ergonomic design ! :-)
Let's give up the zoom button. Let's give up the global menubar. Let's give up tru document-based interfaces. Let's give up the Apple menu.
Let's introduce maximize, local menubars, MDI, a Start button, ...
Originally posted by Benjamin Frere
This is a screen make-up I photoshopped where I arbitrarily took the best of UltraEdit (Windows), Hydra, Safari and even a (forthcoming) IRC client and sticked them together.
Where's the kitchen sink
Do you think it's great to switch between each documents with the "Window" menu ? Or by searching them in the dock between
some other minimised windows from many other apps ? Or by moving your front window and search the other document's window on the screen ?
And, do you think that ALL of Windows' GUI is bad? I don't think so. There are some great ideas in Linux and Windows GUI. The only problem is that they're making a mess with them and that they are incoherent.
Originally posted by Benjamin Frere
You know, in 1984, working on only one document on the Macintosh was a great thing. And It was only running one application at one time... and today, we're in 2003.
And you know what? Working on System 1 through 7 was much more fun, because applications were actually designed well.
...and today, we have lots of ports, REALbasic-based cheapware, an oooh-it-has-funny-looking-effects Office v.X, and, of course, TabbedBrowsing.
Do you think it's great to switch between each documents with the "Window" menu ?
No.
Or by searching them in the dock between
some other minimised windows from many other apps ?
No. I demand optical feedback (meaning a simple GUI) from Apple for Cmd-~ window switching.
Or by moving your front window and search the other document's window on the screen ?
Actually, with reasonably-sized windows, that works well.
And, do you think that ALL of Windows' GUI is bad?
No. I work more with Windows than with Mac OS X. Yet I know that Mac OS' GUI is, and has always been, way superior.
I don't think so. There are some great ideas in Linux and Windows GUI. The only problem is that they're making a mess with them and that they are incoherent.
Not sure what you mean by Linux GUI - it's a kernel. You might mean KDE or GNOME (they don't have anything to do with Linux except that they run on it, but they run on almost any other OS, too). KDE and GNOME, for me, are two funny spare time experiments to take the best of Mac OS' and Windows' GUIs, and add on lots of features that might be of use (when they mostly are just in the way). Even Windows' GUI is far better than KDE and GNOME.
Originally posted by Chucker
And you know what? Working on System 1 through 7 was much more fun, because applications were actually designed well.
...and today, we have lots of ports, REALbasic-based cheapware, an oooh-it-has-funny-looking-effects Office v.X, and, of course, TabbedBrowsing.
I haven't say that Office v.X was a great well designed product.
Don't forget something. TabbedBrowsing and what I've designed on that make-up is for "power users" So it's an option. Like Safari.
Originally posted by Chucker
No. I demand optical feedback (meaning a simple GUI) from Apple for Cmd-~ window switching.
You want what ? Tabs are not enough easy for you ?
Having something optical that switch between non grouped windows (like here on the make up), can only looks like tabs...
But you want something external of a windows app ? like the hmmmm Windows' Taskbar ?
Originally posted by Chucker
Actually, with reasonably-sized windows, that works well.
If you're think of what Hydra is meant to do, you'll quick understand that editing text is not great to do in a tiny window on the coner of you you're screen.
Originally posted by Chucker
No. I work more with Windows than with Mac OS X. Yet I know that Mac OS' GUI is, and has always been, way superior.
I haven't contest that. I was talking about ideas
Originally posted by Chucker
Not sure what you mean by Linux GUI - it's a kernel. You might mean KDE or GNOME (they don't have anything to do with Linux except that they run on it, but they run on almost any other OS, too). KDE and GNOME, for me, are two funny spare time experiments to take the best of Mac OS' and Windows' GUIs, and add on lots of features that might be of use (when they mostly are just in the way). Even Windows' GUI is far better than KDE and GNOME.
I'm not stupid... so why don't you talking about Aqua that run over Darwin using Quartz engine ? hum ?
I won't reply anymore...
Originally posted by Benjamin Frere
You want what ? Tabs are not enough easy for you ?
I want useful window management, not alternatives to it.
Having something optical that switch between non grouped windows (like here on the make up), can only looks like tabs...
I am talking about windows, not tabs. Tabs are a bad idea.
But you want something external of a windows app ? like the hmmmm Windows' Taskbar ?
Yes, but more cleverly-designed.
If you're think of what Hydra is meant to do, you'll quick understand that editing text is not great to do in a tiny window on the coner of you you're screen.
Umm. Hydra is a simple text editor whose main strength is collaborative working. Window management is the window manager's domain, as the name implies. Not the application's.
I'm not stupid... so why don't you talking about Aqua that run over Darwin using Quartz engine ? hum ?
Er. What?
I despise MDI on principle, but I will grudgingly accept it on OS X if and only if:
1) the creation and management of subwindows becomes the responsibility of the Window Manager (which, in turn, would allow for system-standard ways to interact with them).
2) These windows do not recycle the tab widget, which is meant to organize static forms, but introduce a new "subwindow" widget like the one in the screenshot above, or (better) like Safari's.
3) Apple sits down and thinks all the way through the implication of turning a window into a folder of sorts. The document-based application becomes a special case of a larger, more complex system that has to be accomodated unambiguously in the menu selections and keyboard shortcuts, and presented in a way that is logical and intuitive, and which scales down to the more natural document=window paradigm so that the added complexity of MDI only clutters up the rest of the interface when it has to.
In any other case, MDI is not only complex and inelegant, but an ugly, inconsistent hack.
As said, one implementation of elegant window-switching would be a Dock-like translucent panel in the middle of the main screen that only appears during Cmd-~. Like the Dock's minimize pane, it uses thumbnails of the windows, or, in special cases, different icons (like buddy icons in iChat). Like the Dock, it shows the name of the currently selected window. Like the Dock, it also optionally hightlights the selection using magnification.
Of course, there are also different ways to do this, like the already existant - albeit inconsistent in certain apps - Window menu, or the - also inconsistent or even non-existant, like in Proteus, for instance - Dock icon's window list.
What I don't want is window management to become hierarchical, because implementing that is too difficult and has yet to be achieved in an elegant way (and it'll take a lot to convince me).
And I don't know if you knew that, but command-~ doesn't work very well with non qwerty keybord. On french mac keyboards for example, ~ is a dead key. So, you type option-n, and you must type another character. So the command-~ can't work.
Originally posted by Benjamin Frere
A keyboard shorcut is a bad idea.
Not if it's also available as menu item(s), as I've mentioned before.
And I don't know if you knew that, but command-~ doesn't work very well with non qwerty keybord. On french mac keyboards for example, ~ is a dead key. So, you type option-n, and you must type another character. So the command-~ can't work.
On most international keyboards, it's Command-< / Command->. Oh and, as a German, I do know that.
Second, opening my dozen daily bookmarks with one click to tabs is just great. One click, not a dozen.
Teppo
Originally posted by Chucker
On most international keyboards, it's Command-< / Command->. Oh and, as a German, I do know that.
YEHHHHHHAAAAAAA!!!!!
Thank you sooooooooooooo much, Chucker!!! finally I can switch between windows!!! Olé!!!!
Originally posted by Defiant
Thank you sooooooooooooo much, Chucker!
Glad to be of help
Originally posted by Aquatic
Tabs rock.
You are so dead.
If I could switch between tabs with a simple keyboard shortcut, I would not object to them. Though I do think they mesh poorly with macintosh design principles, practical matters are the only reason I am really opposed to tabs.