Fanbois are really starting to change my opinions of the Apple community. And not in a good way.
One should never forget that fans, whatever the subject or the devotion (Mac, Microsoft, Madonna...) are not a reference in objectivity. Of course they are going to defend their idols. This, in itself, is not a revelation ! (See Paul Thurot for another example of lack of objectivity in a fanboi.) Most Mac users are not fanbois, although most Mac users love their Macs (this is what differentiate Mac users from Windows users). So, for me, your conclusion is little more than provocation !
Soon enough Zune will start offering SDKs to developers.
Then you'll find games and apps popping-up for the platform.
The developers will market their apps on the internet and magazines, thus indirectly marketing the Zune platform as a product for more than just music.
Zune sales will top iPod sales.
Thanx to Mr. Jobs' ear wax.
Yeah, because millions of people spend $200-$300 on a device just so they can play games! :rolls eyes:
Personally, I don't have any kind of time to play games, whether on my Mac or my iPod/iPhone, I don't have a problem with games, BUT the moment games start to interfere with the hardware or software it has to stop. People say Macs could make a great platform for games if only Apple would work with the developers, well yes and no. Yes Apple has some of the most powerful hardware available in the prebuilt arena. That hardware is great for what it is designed to do, especially in the arena of Graphic/Video working. But the moment the game developers start to try to influence what kind of hardware is built (specifically for their games) the platform can be compromised because what is good for games is NOT necessarily what is best for video editing or desktop publishing. This is an issue I have with PCs, people try to do too much with their PC and a lot of it will conflict, the number of issues I've seen Direct X cause alone is nuts.
I do think that it is ironic that for years PC users called Macs "toys" but most of my PC user friends are heavy gamers and they buy PCs to play games on.
I did build a great setup for games, for the times I might have an hour to play. but that is ALL that computer does, I do all my work on my Mac.
The same goes for iPhones/iPods, Apple is trying to preserve the experience of a system that won't get garbled up with half thought out game developer code. From lesser experienced game developers.
Yeah, because millions of people spend $200-$300 on a device just so they can play games! :rolls eyes:
Actually, yes.
The Wii is $250, the 360 is $280-350, the PS3 is $400-500, the PSP is $170, the DS $130. (US prices) Millions and millions of all those systems have been sold, probably even the PS3, since it doubles as a BR player.
Gaming consoles have almost always been in the $200-300 range.
Apple gets some things, but when it comes to games, they don't have a clue, more or less because Jobs is too stubborn to think outside of iLife-type applications.
I think do like options, but maybe they just figure with Boot Camp, they gather people would just boot into Windows to play games, but they might be missing a good opportunity.
Come on Apple, give us the ultimate mid-tower gamer's choice.
Come on, back in the day, Commodore sold the 64 and it was King.
There's no reason we can't have a good mid-tower/cube range from intergrate to discrete to heavy dute gpu rigs from £795 - £1395.
They just need to redefine the tower. The Cube almost did it.
But a half sized Mac Pro with gpu, 2xhd space, 4 gig ish etc, quad cpu machine with sexy styling would have me all over it.
In short? I feel John 'Id' Carmack's pain. Apple could and should get with it. No I don't expect a money losing console from them. But with the iTunes store? They could storm the casual gaming market and get with it. They just need eg a mid-tower range. An iMac with a choice of GT 8800...etc.
My theory is Sir Steve Jobs doesn't play games so he probably thinks no one else would want to play games. I think the iPod has a long life ahead, people just love music, but the iPhone will loose out sooner or later. It's to closed for a product people want open. Business people need to have Office on their phones, iPhone doesn't have it. Geeks need to have options, iPhone doesn't have that. And teen's to 20 somethings need games and things to play with, which the iPhones doesn't have either. As for the music part of the iPhone, it's horrible, the headphones suck so listening to music on it is not as nice as listening to music on the iPod, plus the phone doesn't have allot of space so I can't hold my music library anyway.
My theory is Sir Steve Jobs doesn't play games so he probably thinks no one else would want to play games. I think the iPod has a long life ahead, people just love music, but the iPhone will loose out sooner or later. It's to closed for a product people want open. Business people need to have Office on their phones, iPhone doesn't have it. Geeks need to have options, iPhone doesn't have that. And teen's to 20 somethings need games and things to play with, which the iPhones doesn't have either. As for the music part of the iPhone, it's horrible, the headphones suck so listening to music on it is not as nice as listening to music on the iPod, plus the phone doesn't have allot of space so I can't hold my music library anyway.
My point, Apple is thick headed sometimes.
1) Steve surely doesn't think "no one" plays games. He probably doesn't think the market is large enough to warrant excessive focus to that small market segment. I agree.
2) How exactly will the iPhone "loose out?" Apple is only looking for 1% of the cell market. With the size and growth of the that market I see no reason why Apple won't continue to profit.
3) Who keeps their entire library on a phone? The iPhone came out as an industry leader in cell phone storage capabilities. It's the capacity as the high-end Nano. Even Nokia is now following Apple by adding 8GB NAND to their N95.
4) The geeks have options. They have been hacking the iPhone since day one and soon their will be a proper SDK. What more do you want?
5) I agree about the headphones but they are no more less comfortable or quality than the iPod ones. I much prefer ear buds. I'm holding out for Sony earbuds for the iPhone.
While I understand ID's desire to spread the gaming market for themselves and others, I really don't understand why Apple hasn't tried harder to appeal to a larger base of user. I'm a recent Mac Convert, and while I love my MacBookPro, I've been really unsatisfied with the range of games.
Consoles are for gaming, computers are for creativity or work, BESIDES, if you want to play games, buy windows, install it on your macbook and stop complaining about something you CAN do but haven't.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenVitruvius
I've only recently switched to Mac because I've become so tired of hardware failures with my past Windows Machines and the lack or true customer service. Unfortunately it seems like Mac is becoming, or maybe has been before, a company more concerned with only a few small NEW endeavors, and isn't as concerned with the follow-up.
It seems to take a very large push from disgruntled clients to really grab Mr. Job's attention. It's really hard to know where they stand, honoring their products and the people who use them, or profiteering and forgetting about where that money came from. The only reason I say this, is because one day they are bringing out the best invention since sliced bread.... then they betray their users who are honoring the spirit of innovation and trying to open new ways of using products like the iPhone by deliberately sabotaging them because it might hurt their kick back money from a Monopoly deal.
The REASON Apple has better customer satisfaction is BECAUSE of the closed environment. You are essentially saying you switched to Apple because they know what they are doing, but that they don't know what they are doing. O_o
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenVitruvius
Well, I guess I'll just put it this way. It makes it hard for me to invest more of my soul into a company that seems to become more morally suspect, the more I look into it.
This I think is most recently evident, by the way Apple just eliminated their Authorized Business Agent program. Frankly, I find it truly heartless to end it in a way like that. Wouldn't it make more sense to simply, stop issuing new licenses for the ABA program and let it fade out. I can't imagine that http://www.firsttech.com/, in my home town of Minneapolis, MN is really giving Apple retail stores a run for their money. But what they have done, is raise awareness of Mac made products for the last 30 years. (by the way I'll honestly say I think first tech is affected by this decision, but I can't be sure).
Don't invest your soul into a company, ever. Besides, you bring up the whole ABA ordeal only to confirm that you have no idea if it's had any impact, like you have an opinion about something you admit you know squat about!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenVitruvius
Well, it's getting late around here, and I'm sure you've all read just about enough of me. HAve a great night and Happy Turkey Weekend! (Probably not for the turkey's though)
I've only recently switched to Mac because I've become so tired of hardware failures with my past Windows Machines and the lack or true customer service. Unfortunately it seems like Mac is becoming, or maybe has been before, a company more concerned with only a few small NEW endeavors, and isn't as concerned with the follow-up.
First of all, it's "Apple", not Mac. Mac is a product name. Do you hear people going around saying "Hey, does Accord make a minivan? How about Corvette? Does Corvette make an SUV?"
This complaint is a load! Sure, you can say you are unhappy there is no SDK yet. But to use that conclude that Apple is doesn't listen. Apple cannot bow to the whims of everyone, no matter how much you want them to.
Hey, why can't I go download a Nintendo DS SDK and make freeware DS games and post them on the Internet? Why isn't Carmack complaining about Nintendo? Or Sony? Or where's the free XBox360 SDK?
Carmack is upset there's no public games SDK for a telephone, yet he has no problem that there are no public SDKs for actual gaming machines? I find that puzzling.
the moment games start to interfere with the hardware or software it has to stop.
But the moment the game developers start to try to influence what kind of hardware is built (specifically for their games) the platform can be compromised because what is good for games is NOT necessarily what is best for video editing or desktop publishing.
Games would encourage better graphics driver development and better hardware. This would only benefit other graphics applications as they use the same features. It seems the iMac freeze was caused by bad graphics drivers so whatever benefit avoiding gaming is supposed to offer, it clearly isn't working.
Quote:
Originally Posted by roehlstation
Yes Apple has some of the most powerful hardware available in the prebuilt arena. That hardware is great for what it is designed to do, especially in the arena of Graphic/Video working.
Apple's hardware is not great for what it's designed to do. It's designed to do the same job as a Windows PC but Windows PCs use faster and cheaper desktop parts. One of the biggest additions to Final Cut Studio was Motion, which is completely hardware accelerated. For that kind of software, you need the highest end video card you can buy with as much video memory as possible. Since the rendering is done on the GPU, you can get away with a slower CPU but Apple don't build a desktop machine with a dual core CPU and a high end GPU.
The Mac Pro is a good machine but it's way too expensive. It's not just about being able to afford it either, people would be stupid to buy a machine with a low-mid end graphics card for £1700 when you can get a PC with a high end GPU for half the price if they needed good hardware graphics performance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by roehlstation
This is an issue I have with PCs, people try to do too much with their PC and a lot of it will conflict, the number of issues I've seen Direct X cause alone is nuts.
That doesn't mean the same things would happen with OpenGL and OS X.
Quote:
Originally Posted by roehlstation
I do think that it is ironic that for years PC users called Macs "toys" but most of my PC user friends are heavy gamers and they buy PCs to play games on.
When they say toys they mean in the derogatory sense when an inferior product is compared to a superior one not in the sense that it plays games. Like I would say that a Nintendo DS is a toy compared to a PSP because it's about 1/5th the speed or something. They both play games and are both toys essentially.
Anything short of a £1700 workstation from Apple will be considered a toy relative to what is on offer in the PC industry and since that workstation is out of the price range of most people, Apple generally sell 'toys'. That will change after they compete on a price/performance ratio with PCs but Apple's products have been so poor performance-wise for so long, it will take a while to shift that reputation. Now that they have intel CPUs, things are starting to change but then Apple go and leave their highest end machines with graphics cards from 3 or more years ago.
If you pay top dollar for hardware, you expect to get the best hardware and it's by dismissing gaming that Apple feels they have a right to push out pathetic GPU options to even their highest paying customers.
This is funny and sad. It's funny, beause Steve Jobs is a chess player. He's constantly weighing odds, even while the market is interactively trying to second-guess him. Like Gates said at the D conference, both of them have been around long enough to see the peeks and vallies of things, and they know what they want to focus on to be successful not JUST in the short-term, bt in the long term.
...snip....
The gamer crowd is an extremely demanding audience to approach. Highly diverse, territorial, critical, and generally spoiled. While I might anxiously await their rumored Nintendo announcement that may never come... I also accept that we may never see Apple push non-casual games on its multi-touch system. We may never see Apple transform the Apple TV into a game box. We may never see Apple add DVR capabilities to the Apple TV. --Rumors come and go, but the market is always speaking, and sooner or later Apple will respond, whether or not they ever dreamed they would.
The last thing Apple seems inclined to do, is to be the instigator of unreasonable, unmanageable, and unattainable expectations for its target market.
~ CB
One of the best, reasoned, comments on this topic. Its a shame that no one on the boards seems to have bothered to read it.
Personally, I don't have any kind of time to play games, whether on my Mac or my iPod/iPhone, I don't have a problem with games, BUT the moment games start to interfere with the hardware or software it has to stop. People say Macs could make a great platform for games if only Apple would work with the developers, well yes and no. Yes Apple has some of the most powerful hardware available in the prebuilt arena. That hardware is great for what it is designed to do, especially in the arena of Graphic/Video working. But the moment the game developers start to try to influence what kind of hardware is built (specifically for their games) the platform can be compromised because what is good for games is NOT necessarily what is best for video editing or desktop publishing.
I don't think it's necessarily about the hardware, except maybe to support more powerful consumer video chips or offer a single-CPU-socket tower.
I tried to make a simulation and external device control system, it's not a game, but I wanted many similar system capabilities, plus other things that I did manage to get working in short order. The problem is that Apple's device support for developers is pretty poor, particularly when it comes to joysticks. The code required to use it is needlessly contrived. I have a book that pointed out how easy it was write code to grab a joystick in OS 9, and showed how complicated it was to do the same reliably in OS X, and it's just baffling. And the ease of use on the user's side was more consistent too, since the OS handled a lot more that the game didn't have to, you don't get different games not being able to use the same joystick properly, or improper compensation for the button order and so on.
Quote:
This is an issue I have with PCs, people try to do too much with their PC and a lot of it will conflict, the number of issues I've seen Direct X cause alone is nuts.
I do think that it is ironic that for years PC users called Macs "toys" but most of my PC user friends are heavy gamers and they buy PCs to play games on.
I did build a great setup for games, for the times I might have an hour to play. but that is ALL that computer does, I do all my work on my Mac.
The same goes for iPhones/iPods, Apple is trying to preserve the experience of a system that won't get garbled up with half thought out game developer code. From lesser experienced game developers.
I still do most of my productive stuff using Windows, though I am gradually shifting things to Mac when I can. I really don't play games. I don't think for a minute that games would corrupt OS X or the hardware. I think most of the maintenance problems with PC gaming is unique to the peculiarities of poor execution in various parts of the Windows platform.
I'm not a gamer either but if the future about carrying around a phone that has your life on it then I'd want that platform to be as open as possible. I don't want one company dictating what I can and cannot put on my portable computer (iPhone or iPod Touch). Hence, I'll sit on the sidelines until 3rd party apps are rolling in on their OSX device platforms.
Despite being the last bastion of OpenGL commercial big-title gaming, iD software as per Carmack is slowly slipping into irrelevance. Just consider the biggest PC and console titles of this holiday season: NeedForSpeed:ProStreet, BioShock, Crysis, MassEffect, UnrealTournament3, FearXP2[Perseus], Command&Conquer3. Pretty much all DirectX PC, PS3/Xbox360, Cider-on-Mac, etc.
iD having to make iPhone games shows their desperation. There's always Java on Nokia and stuff like that. Why aren't they big in that market???
Bootcamp WinXP2Pro or Vista(heavenforbid) on MacBookPro or iMac24", and Apple has virtually all the PC gaming *in the world* covered. Simple as that. Not happy, can build your own overclocked PC beast [fun] or get a Wii. Please don't get XBox360, touched by the chip-of-death, namely, any consumer CPU influenced by IBM (Xbox360, g5, Cell -- wherefore art PS3 super-popularity?)
Bootcamp WinXP2Pro or Vista(heavenforbid) on MacBookPro or iMac24", and Apple has virtually all the PC gaming *in the world* covered. Simple as that. Not happy, can build your own overclocked PC beast [fun] or get a Wii. Please don't get XBox360, touched by the chip-of-death, namely, any consumer CPU influenced by IBM (Xbox360, g5, Cell -- wherefore art PS3 super-popularity?)
Er, the Wii has an IBM PowerPC based chip in it also so by your reckoning, don't get that either. These days it's only Macs and PCs that don't.
Yeah, it's really too bad that I won't have constant access to ultraviolent fantasies. I can't have blood, guts and gore while I'm sitting on the crapper at work. I guess the iPhone sucks in that way.
I'd like to see Carmack come out with a game where scoring is based on hands held, hugs given and verses of Kumbayah belted out!
Comments
Fanbois are really starting to change my opinions of the Apple community. And not in a good way.
One should never forget that fans, whatever the subject or the devotion (Mac, Microsoft, Madonna...) are not a reference in objectivity. Of course they are going to defend their idols. This, in itself, is not a revelation ! (See Paul Thurot for another example of lack of objectivity in a fanboi.) Most Mac users are not fanbois, although most Mac users love their Macs (this is what differentiate Mac users from Windows users). So, for me, your conclusion is little more than provocation !
Soon enough Zune will start offering SDKs to developers.
Then you'll find games and apps popping-up for the platform.
The developers will market their apps on the internet and magazines, thus indirectly marketing the Zune platform as a product for more than just music.
Zune sales will top iPod sales.
Thanx to Mr. Jobs' ear wax.
Yeah, because millions of people spend $200-$300 on a device just so they can play games! :rolls eyes:
I do think that it is ironic that for years PC users called Macs "toys" but most of my PC user friends are heavy gamers and they buy PCs to play games on.
I did build a great setup for games, for the times I might have an hour to play. but that is ALL that computer does, I do all my work on my Mac.
The same goes for iPhones/iPods, Apple is trying to preserve the experience of a system that won't get garbled up with half thought out game developer code. From lesser experienced game developers.
Yeah, because millions of people spend $200-$300 on a device just so they can play games! :rolls eyes:
Actually, yes.
The Wii is $250, the 360 is $280-350, the PS3 is $400-500, the PSP is $170, the DS $130. (US prices) Millions and millions of all those systems have been sold, probably even the PS3, since it doubles as a BR player.
Gaming consoles have almost always been in the $200-300 range.
Apple gets some things, but when it comes to games, they don't have a clue, more or less because Jobs is too stubborn to think outside of iLife-type applications.
I think do like options, but maybe they just figure with Boot Camp, they gather people would just boot into Windows to play games, but they might be missing a good opportunity.
but they might be missing a good opportunity.
Aint that the truth.
Come on Apple, give us the ultimate mid-tower gamer's choice.
Come on, back in the day, Commodore sold the 64 and it was King.
There's no reason we can't have a good mid-tower/cube range from intergrate to discrete to heavy dute gpu rigs from £795 - £1395.
They just need to redefine the tower. The Cube almost did it.
But a half sized Mac Pro with gpu, 2xhd space, 4 gig ish etc, quad cpu machine with sexy styling would have me all over it.
In short? I feel John 'Id' Carmack's pain. Apple could and should get with it. No I don't expect a money losing console from them. But with the iTunes store? They could storm the casual gaming market and get with it. They just need eg a mid-tower range. An iMac with a choice of GT 8800...etc.
Lemon Bon Bon.
My point, Apple is thick headed sometimes.
My theory is Sir Steve Jobs doesn't play games so he probably thinks no one else would want to play games. I think the iPod has a long life ahead, people just love music, but the iPhone will loose out sooner or later. It's to closed for a product people want open. Business people need to have Office on their phones, iPhone doesn't have it. Geeks need to have options, iPhone doesn't have that. And teen's to 20 somethings need games and things to play with, which the iPhones doesn't have either. As for the music part of the iPhone, it's horrible, the headphones suck so listening to music on it is not as nice as listening to music on the iPod, plus the phone doesn't have allot of space so I can't hold my music library anyway.
My point, Apple is thick headed sometimes.
1) Steve surely doesn't think "no one" plays games. He probably doesn't think the market is large enough to warrant excessive focus to that small market segment. I agree.
2) How exactly will the iPhone "loose out?" Apple is only looking for 1% of the cell market. With the size and growth of the that market I see no reason why Apple won't continue to profit.
3) Who keeps their entire library on a phone? The iPhone came out as an industry leader in cell phone storage capabilities. It's the capacity as the high-end Nano. Even Nokia is now following Apple by adding 8GB NAND to their N95.
4) The geeks have options. They have been hacking the iPhone since day one and soon their will be a proper SDK. What more do you want?
5) I agree about the headphones but they are no more less comfortable or quality than the iPod ones. I much prefer ear buds. I'm holding out for Sony earbuds for the iPhone.
While I understand ID's desire to spread the gaming market for themselves and others, I really don't understand why Apple hasn't tried harder to appeal to a larger base of user. I'm a recent Mac Convert, and while I love my MacBookPro, I've been really unsatisfied with the range of games.
Consoles are for gaming, computers are for creativity or work, BESIDES, if you want to play games, buy windows, install it on your macbook and stop complaining about something you CAN do but haven't.
I've only recently switched to Mac because I've become so tired of hardware failures with my past Windows Machines and the lack or true customer service. Unfortunately it seems like Mac is becoming, or maybe has been before, a company more concerned with only a few small NEW endeavors, and isn't as concerned with the follow-up.
It seems to take a very large push from disgruntled clients to really grab Mr. Job's attention. It's really hard to know where they stand, honoring their products and the people who use them, or profiteering and forgetting about where that money came from. The only reason I say this, is because one day they are bringing out the best invention since sliced bread.... then they betray their users who are honoring the spirit of innovation and trying to open new ways of using products like the iPhone by deliberately sabotaging them because it might hurt their kick back money from a Monopoly deal.
The REASON Apple has better customer satisfaction is BECAUSE of the closed environment. You are essentially saying you switched to Apple because they know what they are doing, but that they don't know what they are doing. O_o
Well, I guess I'll just put it this way. It makes it hard for me to invest more of my soul into a company that seems to become more morally suspect, the more I look into it.
This I think is most recently evident, by the way Apple just eliminated their Authorized Business Agent program. Frankly, I find it truly heartless to end it in a way like that. Wouldn't it make more sense to simply, stop issuing new licenses for the ABA program and let it fade out. I can't imagine that http://www.firsttech.com/, in my home town of Minneapolis, MN is really giving Apple retail stores a run for their money. But what they have done, is raise awareness of Mac made products for the last 30 years. (by the way I'll honestly say I think first tech is affected by this decision, but I can't be sure).
Don't invest your soul into a company, ever. Besides, you bring up the whole ABA ordeal only to confirm that you have no idea if it's had any impact, like you have an opinion about something you admit you know squat about!!
Well, it's getting late around here, and I'm sure you've all read just about enough of me. HAve a great night and Happy Turkey Weekend! (Probably not for the turkey's though)
-GreenV
mmmmm. Turkey.
I've only recently switched to Mac because I've become so tired of hardware failures with my past Windows Machines and the lack or true customer service. Unfortunately it seems like Mac is becoming, or maybe has been before, a company more concerned with only a few small NEW endeavors, and isn't as concerned with the follow-up.
First of all, it's "Apple", not Mac. Mac is a product name. Do you hear people going around saying "Hey, does Accord make a minivan? How about Corvette? Does Corvette make an SUV?"
This complaint is a load! Sure, you can say you are unhappy there is no SDK yet. But to use that conclude that Apple is doesn't listen. Apple cannot bow to the whims of everyone, no matter how much you want them to.
Hey, why can't I go download a Nintendo DS SDK and make freeware DS games and post them on the Internet? Why isn't Carmack complaining about Nintendo? Or Sony? Or where's the free XBox360 SDK?
Carmack is upset there's no public games SDK for a telephone, yet he has no problem that there are no public SDKs for actual gaming machines? I find that puzzling.
the moment games start to interfere with the hardware or software it has to stop.
But the moment the game developers start to try to influence what kind of hardware is built (specifically for their games) the platform can be compromised because what is good for games is NOT necessarily what is best for video editing or desktop publishing.
Games would encourage better graphics driver development and better hardware. This would only benefit other graphics applications as they use the same features. It seems the iMac freeze was caused by bad graphics drivers so whatever benefit avoiding gaming is supposed to offer, it clearly isn't working.
Yes Apple has some of the most powerful hardware available in the prebuilt arena. That hardware is great for what it is designed to do, especially in the arena of Graphic/Video working.
Apple's hardware is not great for what it's designed to do. It's designed to do the same job as a Windows PC but Windows PCs use faster and cheaper desktop parts. One of the biggest additions to Final Cut Studio was Motion, which is completely hardware accelerated. For that kind of software, you need the highest end video card you can buy with as much video memory as possible. Since the rendering is done on the GPU, you can get away with a slower CPU but Apple don't build a desktop machine with a dual core CPU and a high end GPU.
The Mac Pro is a good machine but it's way too expensive. It's not just about being able to afford it either, people would be stupid to buy a machine with a low-mid end graphics card for £1700 when you can get a PC with a high end GPU for half the price if they needed good hardware graphics performance.
This is an issue I have with PCs, people try to do too much with their PC and a lot of it will conflict, the number of issues I've seen Direct X cause alone is nuts.
That doesn't mean the same things would happen with OpenGL and OS X.
I do think that it is ironic that for years PC users called Macs "toys" but most of my PC user friends are heavy gamers and they buy PCs to play games on.
When they say toys they mean in the derogatory sense when an inferior product is compared to a superior one not in the sense that it plays games. Like I would say that a Nintendo DS is a toy compared to a PSP because it's about 1/5th the speed or something. They both play games and are both toys essentially.
Anything short of a £1700 workstation from Apple will be considered a toy relative to what is on offer in the PC industry and since that workstation is out of the price range of most people, Apple generally sell 'toys'. That will change after they compete on a price/performance ratio with PCs but Apple's products have been so poor performance-wise for so long, it will take a while to shift that reputation. Now that they have intel CPUs, things are starting to change but then Apple go and leave their highest end machines with graphics cards from 3 or more years ago.
If you pay top dollar for hardware, you expect to get the best hardware and it's by dismissing gaming that Apple feels they have a right to push out pathetic GPU options to even their highest paying customers.
This is funny and sad. It's funny, beause Steve Jobs is a chess player. He's constantly weighing odds, even while the market is interactively trying to second-guess him. Like Gates said at the D conference, both of them have been around long enough to see the peeks and vallies of things, and they know what they want to focus on to be successful not JUST in the short-term, bt in the long term.
...snip....
The gamer crowd is an extremely demanding audience to approach. Highly diverse, territorial, critical, and generally spoiled. While I might anxiously await their rumored Nintendo announcement that may never come... I also accept that we may never see Apple push non-casual games on its multi-touch system. We may never see Apple transform the Apple TV into a game box. We may never see Apple add DVR capabilities to the Apple TV. --Rumors come and go, but the market is always speaking, and sooner or later Apple will respond, whether or not they ever dreamed they would.
The last thing Apple seems inclined to do, is to be the instigator of unreasonable, unmanageable, and unattainable expectations for its target market.
~ CB
One of the best, reasoned, comments on this topic. Its a shame that no one on the boards seems to have bothered to read it.
Personally, I don't have any kind of time to play games, whether on my Mac or my iPod/iPhone, I don't have a problem with games, BUT the moment games start to interfere with the hardware or software it has to stop. People say Macs could make a great platform for games if only Apple would work with the developers, well yes and no. Yes Apple has some of the most powerful hardware available in the prebuilt arena. That hardware is great for what it is designed to do, especially in the arena of Graphic/Video working. But the moment the game developers start to try to influence what kind of hardware is built (specifically for their games) the platform can be compromised because what is good for games is NOT necessarily what is best for video editing or desktop publishing.
I don't think it's necessarily about the hardware, except maybe to support more powerful consumer video chips or offer a single-CPU-socket tower.
I tried to make a simulation and external device control system, it's not a game, but I wanted many similar system capabilities, plus other things that I did manage to get working in short order. The problem is that Apple's device support for developers is pretty poor, particularly when it comes to joysticks. The code required to use it is needlessly contrived. I have a book that pointed out how easy it was write code to grab a joystick in OS 9, and showed how complicated it was to do the same reliably in OS X, and it's just baffling. And the ease of use on the user's side was more consistent too, since the OS handled a lot more that the game didn't have to, you don't get different games not being able to use the same joystick properly, or improper compensation for the button order and so on.
This is an issue I have with PCs, people try to do too much with their PC and a lot of it will conflict, the number of issues I've seen Direct X cause alone is nuts.
I do think that it is ironic that for years PC users called Macs "toys" but most of my PC user friends are heavy gamers and they buy PCs to play games on.
I did build a great setup for games, for the times I might have an hour to play. but that is ALL that computer does, I do all my work on my Mac.
The same goes for iPhones/iPods, Apple is trying to preserve the experience of a system that won't get garbled up with half thought out game developer code. From lesser experienced game developers.
I still do most of my productive stuff using Windows, though I am gradually shifting things to Mac when I can. I really don't play games. I don't think for a minute that games would corrupt OS X or the hardware. I think most of the maintenance problems with PC gaming is unique to the peculiarities of poor execution in various parts of the Windows platform.
As a non-gamer I have to say "Waaah!"
I'm not a gamer either but if the future about carrying around a phone that has your life on it then I'd want that platform to be as open as possible. I don't want one company dictating what I can and cannot put on my portable computer (iPhone or iPod Touch). Hence, I'll sit on the sidelines until 3rd party apps are rolling in on their OSX device platforms.
Wither AppleTV?
iD having to make iPhone games shows their desperation. There's always Java on Nokia and stuff like that. Why aren't they big in that market???
I don't have a problem with games, BUT the moment games start to interfere with the hardware or software it has to stop.
Games commoditized all the fancy 3D video hardware that Apple uses for UI effects. If anything they've "interfered" only in a positive way.
Bootcamp WinXP2Pro or Vista(heavenforbid) on MacBookPro or iMac24", and Apple has virtually all the PC gaming *in the world* covered. Simple as that. Not happy, can build your own overclocked PC beast [fun] or get a Wii. Please don't get XBox360, touched by the chip-of-death, namely, any consumer CPU influenced by IBM (Xbox360, g5, Cell -- wherefore art PS3 super-popularity?)
Er, the Wii has an IBM PowerPC based chip in it also so by your reckoning, don't get that either. These days it's only Macs and PCs that don't.
Yeah, it's really too bad that I won't have constant access to ultraviolent fantasies. I can't have blood, guts and gore while I'm sitting on the crapper at work. I guess the iPhone sucks in that way.
I'd like to see Carmack come out with a game where scoring is based on hands held, hugs given and verses of Kumbayah belted out!
Thats gotta be up there for post of the year!
Er, the Wii has an IBM PowerPC based chip in it also so by your reckoning, don't get that either. These days it's only Macs and PCs that don't.
As much as I dislike the lame popularity contests, XBox360 has done pretty darn well, despite nvidia2008's protestations otherwise.