Agreed. There is no 'war'. Apple and Jobs might take jabs at Microsoft but that's about it.
If Microsoft really wanted to 'kill' Apple off, they would have done it in 1996 with no agreement with Apple, discontinuation of Microsoft Office for the Mac (all MS apps in fact), and no settlement of Apple's lawsuit.
You might see Apple in a similar position to Be- a failing company that in death was still suing MS.
But that didn't happen. I think we might see some actual improvements in VPC if MS continues work on it. If they ever had any intention of 'porting' Windows to PPC, we might see those efforts included.
<strong>Forgive my ignorace on all this, but what do you all use VPC for? What programs absolutely need to run in windows which don't mind running really slowly?
Thanks in advance!</strong><hr></blockquote>
that's easy for me (haven't read others' replies, but..), i design and code web pages. no scripting or programming, mind you. just a lot of HTML grunt work. and i gotta test across EVERYTHING.
you have no idea how convenient it is to have just a whackload of browsers and versions and different operating systems all running simultaneously to check layout, etc. plus, windows won't let you run multiple version of internet explorer on the same system, so i have one win 95 environment with IE5, windows 2000 Pro with IE6, win 98 with various flavors of netscape, and on and on and on...
VPC is worth its weight in gold for those purposes alone. IMHO.
my friend's got a girlfriendman he hates that bitch
he tells me everyday
he says "man i really gotta lose my chick
in the worst kinda way"
she sits on her ass he works his hands to the bone
to give her money every payday
but she wants more dinero just to stay at home
well my friend you gotta say
chorus--i won't pay i won't pay ya no way
why don't you get a job
say no way say no way no way
why don't you get a job
i guess all his money well it isn't enough
to keep her bill collectors at bay
i guess all his money well it isn't enough
cause that girl's got expensive taste
chorus
well i guess it ain't easy doin nothin at all
oh yeah
but hey man free rides just don't come along
everyday
(let me tell ya bout my other friend now)
my friend's got a boyfriend
man she hates that dick
she tells me everyday
he wants more dinero just to stay at home
well my friend you gotta say
chorus
i won't give ya no money
i always pay
why don't you get a job
say no way say no way no way
why don't you get a joooooooooob
----------------
Hopefully Apple will make the Mac 100% Microsoft independant. It's nice to have Microsoft, and Microsoft products for Macs are good, but depending on MS means certain death for Apple in the long run.
Apple is becoming more and more radical. In the long run, that's the only way for the platform to survive.
for the people saying MS should be slapped with another antitrust trial if they kill VPC for Mac, isn't that exactly what Apple did to that music product they purchased a couple of months ago?
Apple can be totally obnoxious at times too. Personally I think they should have been sued for that kind of openly anticompetitive behavior. The fact that they have less than 5% market share shouldn't make a difference, from a moral standpoint.
Of course us being Mac users, we barely complained about it.
At present, you can buy a low-priced version of VPC for US $129 with nothing but DOS, allowing you to install an existing copy of whatever OS you'd want.
I won't be surprised to see that option go away soon, so that even if you wanted to run Linux on VPC, or a copy of Windows that you already own, you'd be forced to pay for a new copy of Windows by buying one the VPC versions currently priced at $219-$249.
At present, you can have multiple virtual PCs, each with their own copy of some OS. On the Mac at least (I haven't tried VPC for Windows yet), the individual virtual PCs all look essentially the same in terms of any "hardware signature" that might be used to identify them. I wouldn't be surprised is MS tries to embed a unique hardware signature in each virtual PC you create so that you'd be required to buy a separate copy of Windows for each one, or else run afoul of MS's licensing restrictions.
I wouldn't put it past Microsoft to try to use their control of VPC against Apple.
I won't be surprised to start seeing VPC for Mac versions slipping behind VPC for Windows versions, getting lower priority, and becoming buggier. Or (see above) the Mac version might be dropped completely after whatever MS considers a "respectable" time for coming up with excuses for doing something they might have planned from the beginning.
I actually wouldn't put it past MS to do something like what blue2kdave mentioned. Corel did something similar with its Linux version of WordPerfect Office. All they did was embed WINE into the Win32 product and ship as a 'native' Linux version...
While I didn't find this news thrilling you seem to have forgotten one thing. The prime motivating factor behind MS is turning a buck.
This they can do quite nicely by selling you VPC and Office for the Mac also. See, there's two products they can sell you. They wouldn't incorporate office into VPC because then they couldn't sell you two products. Before you start about them only selling a VPC version of Office remember they have already poured a great deal of development dollars into Office for the Mac. Also if it ran only in VPC nobody would buy it. Too expensive just to run Office. Now why would they discontinue a lucrative way to sell you two products?
I'm not a fan of MS but I do know they think with their wallet first.
The only time Apple would be in real danger is if by some fluke they gain significant market share or through some deal where they want Apple to cooperate ( like the Quicktime " knife the baby " thing ). Otherwise it's business as usual for MS.
The other thing is that MS needs Apple. When the DOJ points their finger they can say " See we're not a monopoly ". It's a screwy world but that's pretty much the way it is.
cygsid get real the fact that Apple has 3 (yes 3%) market share DOES change everything. Also the fact that Logic doesn't control 95% of the music industry software. This is FAR different.
MS will develop VPC for MACOSX but stop with all other products for OSX, notably MS Office. Anti- trust-wise they cannot be touched, while butchering Apple.
[quote] Forgive my ignorace on all this, but what do you all use VPC for? What programs absolutely need to run in windows which don't mind running really slowly? <hr></blockquote>
-PolyTrans-3D translation SW. The developer will not make a Mac version and reccommends VPC to get the job done.
-BMW ETK-These are the service CDs that the dealer uses. Windoze only. I can't really complain since only dealers are supposed to have them, but I use mine 2-3 times a week for all kinds of project on my car.
-Web Dev-Test pages.
Yup, Apple should have snatched this one up. After sleeping on this news, I don't see any real upside to it.
<strong>While I didn't find this news thrilling you seem to have forgotten one thing. The prime motivating factor behind MS is turning a buck...
I'm not a fan of MS but I do know they think with their wallet first.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
So, how does this answer my concern about MS eliminating the cheaper DOS-only version of VPC, and making you have to buy a bundled version of Windows?
Seeing the obnoxious hardware signature method that MS is using now to try to make sure you don't use a copy XP on more than one machine, how does citing MS profit motive allay my fears that MS might try to make you pay for a separate copy of Windows for each virtual PC that you create?
I think it's a pretty safe bet that VPC will become crap, but think silver lining.
The product has been very successful, there were VPC competitors in the past and making new ones should be easier in OSX.
If M$ makes it much faster so that they don't have to ship any Mac native product, that's not so bad for the emulator itself, and then a 3rd party or 2 WILL emerge with a VPC replacement.
Office will soon be a commodity, you'll see. M$ will claw and kick and scratch to keep it from happening, but they're going to suffer a big hit in that revenue stream. The future of the Office Suite is running in a platform agnostic virtual machine.
[quote]While I didn't find this news thrilling you seem to have forgotten one thing. The prime motivating factor behind MS is turning a buck.<hr></blockquote>
jimmac, have you ever heard of a gaming console called the Xbox? It's a money pit. Every time someone buys an Xbox, Microsoft loses money. Last weekend, MS was selling the Xbox with 5 games and 2 controllers for a little over $200.
They aren't making money off of it any time soon and they've thrown billions into the market to get it into a good position for the next generation of consoles. But from now until 2005 or 2006, MS is losing money on the Xbox.
Why are they doing this? They want to have leverage over the gaming industry like they do over the computer industry. To do this, they bought Bungie and Rare. They are doing everything they can to gain market share.
The difference between what MS is doing in the console industry and what they are doing here is that MS already has the market control they want in the computer industry. If they want to keep pushing into other markets (and taking losses), they are going to have to keep making profits elsewhere. That's why I don't see any of Microsoft's Mac apps (including VPC) going away. It doesn't make sense.
1- MS ceases all development of all Mac apps, and simply markets a VirtualXP product, no support for other OSes.
2- MS ceases all Mac apps, sells only VPC, but allows multiple versions of Windows but no Linux partitions.
mixed bag scenarios...
1- MS continues development of Office Apps and MSN, but no IE, sells only VXP. VXP maintains current performance capabilities, ie good for mosy stuff but no high end apps or games
2- Office X etc, VXP hardware optimized. (what if MS included some sort of DirectX support? Could Windows games be run?)
best case scenarios...
1- MS continues development of major Mac apps, VPC keeps all of its current flexibility, hardware integration added allowing seemless exectution of Windows apps. This could be done as more of an X11 implementation than current VPC model.
Any other scenarios I have missed? Any bets on which one will come true.?
The way I see this is an attempt for Microsoft to gain much more control over software development by making VPC run well on any platform. Convince the developers to develop apps using the W32 instruction set and run it on any platform (albeit virtually). This would make sense from a developer perspective with having only one codebase to maintain. MS keeps most of the development on their tools and ensures that Windows stays relevant even if OS X or Linux begins to make serious market advances. They stay relevant even if IBM's chips relegate Intel and AMD to the low end. They at MS now know that they cannot stop opensource and to compete against it conventionally will not work. They are going to now leverage their dominance in software development to maintain dominance on any and all platforms. Hooray, we get to stay in the dark ages for a much longer time. Downright depressing.
Comments
"Office 11 is a pipe dream. It will never see the light of day."
They really should stop announcing it, then.
"The war has now begun in earnest."
IT IS NOT A WAR. If it becomes a war we'll know, because our platform will be hosed and killed dead within 5 years.
It is tense, yes. But mostly on the Apple side.
If Microsoft really wanted to 'kill' Apple off, they would have done it in 1996 with no agreement with Apple, discontinuation of Microsoft Office for the Mac (all MS apps in fact), and no settlement of Apple's lawsuit.
You might see Apple in a similar position to Be- a failing company that in death was still suing MS.
But that didn't happen. I think we might see some actual improvements in VPC if MS continues work on it. If they ever had any intention of 'porting' Windows to PPC, we might see those efforts included.
<strong>Forgive my ignorace on all this, but what do you all use VPC for? What programs absolutely need to run in windows which don't mind running really slowly?
Thanks in advance!</strong><hr></blockquote>
that's easy for me (haven't read others' replies, but..), i design and code web pages. no scripting or programming, mind you. just a lot of HTML grunt work. and i gotta test across EVERYTHING.
you have no idea how convenient it is to have just a whackload of browsers and versions and different operating systems all running simultaneously to check layout, etc. plus, windows won't let you run multiple version of internet explorer on the same system, so i have one win 95 environment with IE5, windows 2000 Pro with IE6, win 98 with various flavors of netscape, and on and on and on...
VPC is worth its weight in gold for those purposes alone. IMHO.
[ 02-19-2003: Message edited by: rok ]</p>
he tells me everyday
he says "man i really gotta lose my chick
in the worst kinda way"
she sits on her ass he works his hands to the bone
to give her money every payday
but she wants more dinero just to stay at home
well my friend you gotta say
chorus--i won't pay i won't pay ya no way
why don't you get a job
say no way say no way no way
why don't you get a job
i guess all his money well it isn't enough
to keep her bill collectors at bay
i guess all his money well it isn't enough
cause that girl's got expensive taste
chorus
well i guess it ain't easy doin nothin at all
oh yeah
but hey man free rides just don't come along
everyday
(let me tell ya bout my other friend now)
my friend's got a boyfriend
man she hates that dick
she tells me everyday
he wants more dinero just to stay at home
well my friend you gotta say
chorus
i won't give ya no money
i always pay
why don't you get a job
say no way say no way no way
why don't you get a joooooooooob
----------------
Hopefully Apple will make the Mac 100% Microsoft independant. It's nice to have Microsoft, and Microsoft products for Macs are good, but depending on MS means certain death for Apple in the long run.
Apple is becoming more and more radical. In the long run, that's the only way for the platform to survive.
Barto
Apple can be totally obnoxious at times too. Personally I think they should have been sued for that kind of openly anticompetitive behavior. The fact that they have less than 5% market share shouldn't make a difference, from a moral standpoint.
Of course us being Mac users, we barely complained about it.
At present, you can buy a low-priced version of VPC for US $129 with nothing but DOS, allowing you to install an existing copy of whatever OS you'd want.
I won't be surprised to see that option go away soon, so that even if you wanted to run Linux on VPC, or a copy of Windows that you already own, you'd be forced to pay for a new copy of Windows by buying one the VPC versions currently priced at $219-$249.
At present, you can have multiple virtual PCs, each with their own copy of some OS. On the Mac at least (I haven't tried VPC for Windows yet), the individual virtual PCs all look essentially the same in terms of any "hardware signature" that might be used to identify them. I wouldn't be surprised is MS tries to embed a unique hardware signature in each virtual PC you create so that you'd be required to buy a separate copy of Windows for each one, or else run afoul of MS's licensing restrictions.
I wouldn't put it past Microsoft to try to use their control of VPC against Apple.
I won't be surprised to start seeing VPC for Mac versions slipping behind VPC for Windows versions, getting lower priority, and becoming buggier. Or (see above) the Mac version might be dropped completely after whatever MS considers a "respectable" time for coming up with excuses for doing something they might have planned from the beginning.
<a href="http://linux.corel.com/support/wine_faq.htm"; target="_blank">http://linux.corel.com/support/wine_faq.htm</a>;
[ 02-19-2003: Message edited by: Eugene ]</p>
While I didn't find this news thrilling you seem to have forgotten one thing. The prime motivating factor behind MS is turning a buck.
This they can do quite nicely by selling you VPC and Office for the Mac also. See, there's two products they can sell you. They wouldn't incorporate office into VPC because then they couldn't sell you two products. Before you start about them only selling a VPC version of Office remember they have already poured a great deal of development dollars into Office for the Mac. Also if it ran only in VPC nobody would buy it. Too expensive just to run Office. Now why would they discontinue a lucrative way to sell you two products?
I'm not a fan of MS but I do know they think with their wallet first.
The only time Apple would be in real danger is if by some fluke they gain significant market share or through some deal where they want Apple to cooperate ( like the Quicktime " knife the baby " thing ). Otherwise it's business as usual for MS.
The other thing is that MS needs Apple. When the DOJ points their finger they can say " See we're not a monopoly ". It's a screwy world but that's pretty much the way it is.
[ 02-20-2003: Message edited by: jimmac ]</p>
All I have to say is ****.
that really makes me sad, but it´s Apples own fault: They should have buyed VPC....
Pim
-PolyTrans-3D translation SW. The developer will not make a Mac version and reccommends VPC to get the job done.
-BMW ETK-These are the service CDs that the dealer uses. Windoze only. I can't really complain since only dealers are supposed to have them, but I use mine 2-3 times a week for all kinds of project on my car.
-Web Dev-Test pages.
Yup, Apple should have snatched this one up. After sleeping on this news, I don't see any real upside to it.
<strong>While I didn't find this news thrilling you seem to have forgotten one thing. The prime motivating factor behind MS is turning a buck...
I'm not a fan of MS but I do know they think with their wallet first.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
So, how does this answer my concern about MS eliminating the cheaper DOS-only version of VPC, and making you have to buy a bundled version of Windows?
Seeing the obnoxious hardware signature method that MS is using now to try to make sure you don't use a copy XP on more than one machine, how does citing MS profit motive allay my fears that MS might try to make you pay for a separate copy of Windows for each virtual PC that you create?
The product has been very successful, there were VPC competitors in the past and making new ones should be easier in OSX.
If M$ makes it much faster so that they don't have to ship any Mac native product, that's not so bad for the emulator itself, and then a 3rd party or 2 WILL emerge with a VPC replacement.
Office will soon be a commodity, you'll see. M$ will claw and kick and scratch to keep it from happening, but they're going to suffer a big hit in that revenue stream. The future of the Office Suite is running in a platform agnostic virtual machine.
jimmac, have you ever heard of a gaming console called the Xbox? It's a money pit. Every time someone buys an Xbox, Microsoft loses money. Last weekend, MS was selling the Xbox with 5 games and 2 controllers for a little over $200.
They aren't making money off of it any time soon and they've thrown billions into the market to get it into a good position for the next generation of consoles. But from now until 2005 or 2006, MS is losing money on the Xbox.
Why are they doing this? They want to have leverage over the gaming industry like they do over the computer industry. To do this, they bought Bungie and Rare. They are doing everything they can to gain market share.
The difference between what MS is doing in the console industry and what they are doing here is that MS already has the market control they want in the computer industry. If they want to keep pushing into other markets (and taking losses), they are going to have to keep making profits elsewhere. That's why I don't see any of Microsoft's Mac apps (including VPC) going away. It doesn't make sense.
1- MS ceases all development of all Mac apps, and simply markets a VirtualXP product, no support for other OSes.
2- MS ceases all Mac apps, sells only VPC, but allows multiple versions of Windows but no Linux partitions.
mixed bag scenarios...
1- MS continues development of Office Apps and MSN, but no IE, sells only VXP. VXP maintains current performance capabilities, ie good for mosy stuff but no high end apps or games
2- Office X etc, VXP hardware optimized. (what if MS included some sort of DirectX support? Could Windows games be run?)
best case scenarios...
1- MS continues development of major Mac apps, VPC keeps all of its current flexibility, hardware integration added allowing seemless exectution of Windows apps. This could be done as more of an X11 implementation than current VPC model.
Any other scenarios I have missed? Any bets on which one will come true.?
WTF?
Is forcing Mac users to buy a copy of Windows if they want Office compatibility NOT anti-trust???
Of course the Bush administration doesn't give a rats arse about their economic markets.
Barto
<strong>so would it be a bad idea to go out and buy VPC 6 DOS just to have it before it is pulled?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Better idea: i can now pirate VPC with a clean conscience...