Apple considers bringing iPhone camera sensor designs in-house

Posted:
in Future Apple Hardware edited November 2023

Apple may continue its trend of designing more of its components in-house by coming up with its own camera sensors, it is rumored, giving it more control over how the iPhone takes and processes photographs.

iPhone 15 Pro Max cameras
iPhone 15 Pro Max cameras



Over the years, Apple has gradually brought the design work of its many components to within the company, using its own internal ideas instead of relying on third-party component suppliers. Now, it seems that cameras could be the next component to be targeted by the iPhone maker.

In Sunday's "Power On" newsletter for Bloomberg, Mark Gurman writes that Apple is looking towards creating an "in-house strategy" for designing camera sensors. Photography is a major selling point for iPhones, reasons Gurman, thanks to initiatives such as Shot on iPhone.

However the design work may go beyond just iPhone. With cameras important to fields such as mixed reality and self-driving vehicles, creating its own cameras could be an opportunity to improve future models of the Apple Vision Pro and the often-rumored Apple Car.

Bringing a design process in-house gives Apple opportunities to not only improve how a component functions, but also to better plan future developments and to deeply integrate the hardware with its software.

This is far from the first time Apple has shifted design duties away from suppliers and to its own engineers. It has famously designed its own processors for use in iPhones, as well as Apple Silicon for Mac hardware.

Its efforts to produce a modem may result in new components arriving in late 2025. Work on battery cells could allow iPhones to last even longer in the future, though this is at an exploratory stage for the moment.

Then there's the development of a noninvasive blood glucose sensor which could eventually make its way to the Apple Watch. That project is said to be led by Apple platform architecture group head Tim Millet.

Read on AppleInsider

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Comments

  • Reply 1 of 24
    XedXed Posts: 2,621member
    lmasanti said:
    It makes total sense!

    Apple likes to own the basic technologies that are the foundation of their devices.

    Long ago… Phil Schiller said that ‘Apple is the biggest camera company.’
    People buys iPhones… at least the ones with the higher prices… for its cameras.

    Apple owns its silicon, is going to own its modem… why not camera sensors?
    Considering their volume it does make sense. If they can pull it off they'd be able to slash component prices long term while offering a better overall product. My question is how much money and time will it take to get there?
    Alex1NiOS_Guy80watto_cobraFileMakerFellerdanoxjony0
  • Reply 2 of 24
    MacProMacPro Posts: 19,745member
    I assume Sony currently supplies Apple at the moment. It will be some feat to best Sony IMHO.   Given Sony also provides sensors for Samsung Galaxy and Google Pixel, not to mention Sony's sensors are also used in a wide range of non-phone cameras, from point-and-shoots to professional DSLRs and mirrorless cameras. Some major camera manufacturers that use Sony sensors include Nikon, Canon, and Fujifilm. To add to Sony's impressive lineup, Sony's new sensor used in the global shutter technology in the A9III is a phenomenal achievement which I would have thought Apple would have lept at.
    edited November 2023 Alex1Nchasmwatto_cobrajony0
  • Reply 3 of 24
    XedXed Posts: 2,621member
    MacPro said:
    I assume Sony currently supplies Apple at the moment. It will be some feat to best Sony IMHO.   Given Sony also provides sensors for Samsung Galaxy and Google Pixel, not to mention Sony's sensors are also used in a wide range of non-phone cameras, from point-and-shoots to professional DSLRs and mirrorless cameras. Some major camera manufacturers that use Sony sensors include Nikon, Canon, and Fujifilm. To add to Sony's impressive lineup, Sony's new sensor used in the global shutter technology in the A9III is a phenomenal achievement which I would have thought Apple would have lept at.
    It will be, but Apple also doesn't have to beat Sony to benefit from trying to compete with Sony. If Sony perceives Apple's intentions as a threat to their bottom line they can lower prices for Apple to make it less advantageous for Apple to move to a difference vendor.
    Alex1Nwatto_cobraFileMakerFeller9secondkox2
  • Reply 4 of 24
    MacProMacPro Posts: 19,745member
    Xed said:
    MacPro said:
    I assume Sony currently supplies Apple at the moment. It will be some feat to best Sony IMHO.   Given Sony also provides sensors for Samsung Galaxy and Google Pixel, not to mention Sony's sensors are also used in a wide range of non-phone cameras, from point-and-shoots to professional DSLRs and mirrorless cameras. Some major camera manufacturers that use Sony sensors include Nikon, Canon, and Fujifilm. To add to Sony's impressive lineup, Sony's new sensor used in the global shutter technology in the A9III is a phenomenal achievement which I would have thought Apple would have lept at.
    It will be, but Apple also doesn't have to beat Sony to benefit from trying to compete with Sony. If Sony perceives Apple's intentions as a threat to their bottom line they can lower prices for Apple to make it less advantageous for Apple to move to a difference vendor.
    And that could be what's going on, of course, although I read it as not going to a different vendor, but rather going in-house.  As soon as I read about the global shutter sensors, I hoped Apple would be all over it; I would assume there would be some patent issues involved for Apple if they go it alone too.

    I always hoped Apple would buy Sony, after ESPN that is ;)
    edited November 2023 InspiredCodeAlex1Nwatto_cobraFileMakerFeller9secondkox2
  • Reply 5 of 24
    MacPro said:
    Xed said:
    MacPro said:
    I assume Sony currently supplies Apple at the moment. It will be some feat to best Sony IMHO.   Given Sony also provides sensors for Samsung Galaxy and Google Pixel, not to mention Sony's sensors are also used in a wide range of non-phone cameras, from point-and-shoots to professional DSLRs and mirrorless cameras. Some major camera manufacturers that use Sony sensors include Nikon, Canon, and Fujifilm. To add to Sony's impressive lineup, Sony's new sensor used in the global shutter technology in the A9III is a phenomenal achievement which I would have thought Apple would have lept at.
    It will be, but Apple also doesn't have to beat Sony to benefit from trying to compete with Sony. If Sony perceives Apple's intentions as a threat to their bottom line they can lower prices for Apple to make it less advantageous for Apple to move to a difference vendor.
    And that could be what's going on, of course, although I read it as not going to a different vendor, but rather going in-house.  As soon as I read about the global shutter sensors, I hoped Apple would be all over it; I would assume there would be some patent issues involved for Apple if they go it alone too.

    I always hoped Apple would buy Sony, after ESPN that is ;)
    Apple and Sony have a good relationship and a lot in common between their corporate cultures. Maybe Apple brings sensor design in house by acquiring Sony?

    I bet Apple Silicon would be great for PS6.
    edited November 2023 chasmwatto_cobrajony0
  • Reply 6 of 24
    XedXed Posts: 2,621member
    MacPro said:
    Xed said:
    MacPro said:
    I assume Sony currently supplies Apple at the moment. It will be some feat to best Sony IMHO.   Given Sony also provides sensors for Samsung Galaxy and Google Pixel, not to mention Sony's sensors are also used in a wide range of non-phone cameras, from point-and-shoots to professional DSLRs and mirrorless cameras. Some major camera manufacturers that use Sony sensors include Nikon, Canon, and Fujifilm. To add to Sony's impressive lineup, Sony's new sensor used in the global shutter technology in the A9III is a phenomenal achievement which I would have thought Apple would have lept at.
    It will be, but Apple also doesn't have to beat Sony to benefit from trying to compete with Sony. If Sony perceives Apple's intentions as a threat to their bottom line they can lower prices for Apple to make it less advantageous for Apple to move to a difference vendor.
    And that could be what's going on, of course, although I read it as not going to a different vendor, but rather going in-house.  As soon as I read about the global shutter sensors, I hoped Apple would be all over it; I would assume there would be some patent issues involved for Apple if they go it alone too.

    I always hoped Apple would buy Sony, after ESPN that is ;)
    Apple producing their own parts is still a different vendor from using Sony. I used the more generic "different vendor" because this tactic is beneficial when you can keep a vendor from having a monopoly, thereby keeping them from dictating terms and prices.
    Alex1Nwatto_cobra
  • Reply 7 of 24
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,747member
    For the glucose sensor, Apple is almost certain to use a third party. Rockley Photonics is the rumoured party.

    As for rumours of phone manufacturers brewing their own image sensors, there have been rumours of Huawei doing the same but as a way of protecting itself against sanctions shenanigans. 

    That isn't the case with Apple, and Sony's new shutter technology really seems to be game changing on the sensor front so it's hard to see why Apple might want to go that route without that kind of technology, especially as over the last few years more and more weight has been put behind post processing of images. Sony has also been very accommodating of custom modifications of its sensors.

    Perhaps in the distant future or maybe the rumour is wrong. 
    edited November 2023 Alex1N
  • Reply 8 of 24
    XedXed Posts: 2,621member
    avon b7 said:
    Perhaps in the distant future or maybe the rumours is wrong. 
    When you're designing something as advanced as a camera component (or a cellular baseband chip) you assume the distance future, not something arriving in the next product release.
    Alex1Nchasmwatto_cobratmayjony0
  • Reply 9 of 24
    No, no, nooooooooooooooooooo! Apple, you have to leave the sensor and the lenses to those that have been making them for a hundred years. Don’t embarrass yourself.
  • Reply 10 of 24
    XedXed Posts: 2,621member
    No, no, nooooooooooooooooooo! Apple, you have to leave the sensor and the lenses to those that have been making them for a hundred years. Don’t embarrass yourself.
    Just like how they should leave the cellphone to those who had been making them for decades? And how about Apple making their own chips when Intel had a half a century lead over them?
    chasmwatto_cobratmayjony0
  • Reply 11 of 24
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,747member
    Xed said:
    avon b7 said:
    Perhaps in the distant future or maybe the rumours is wrong. 
    When you're designing something as advanced as a camera component (or a cellular baseband chip) you assume the distance future, not something arriving in the next product release.
    Absolutely. However, timeframes are dependent on when the rumoured strategy got the green light. If it was already slow cooking somewhere and waiting for the OK or if they have simply decided now to shoot for their own sensor.

    Job listings in sensor imaging might point to something although I'm inclined to think this kind of move would play off a company they may have quietly snapped up in the past. 
    chasmAlex1Ndanox
  • Reply 12 of 24
    chasmchasm Posts: 3,334member
    First let me say that this has been an enlightening and informative series of posts, and (almost) entirely consisting of educated, enlightening speculation.

    Second, assuming this report is correct, I would not expect to see Apple replacing Sony as the sensor supplier anytime soon. I’m thinking 2027 or even later on that — the iPhone took two years (in secret) from commitment to Steve’s introduction, and that first model was full of third-party parts to help speed development.

    Specifically to 12Strangers’ concerns: nothing in this report talked about lenses at all, but I would remind you that Apple may ALREADY be in the lens business with the forthcoming Apple Vision Pro, which will features custom lenses for those with imperfect eyesight.

    I don’t know who (if anyone) they are using to supply those lenses now, but many reviewers who have tried the headset have repeatedly mentioned the perfect vision of the lenses used for their test experiences.
    Alex1Nwatto_cobra
  • Reply 13 of 24
    XedXed Posts: 2,621member
    chasm said:
    I don’t know who (if anyone) they are using to supply those lenses now, but many reviewers who have tried the headset have repeatedly mentioned the perfect vision of the lenses used for their test experiences.
    The inserts for vision correction are to be supplied by a partnership with Zeiss AG.

    https://www.zeiss.com/vision-care/en/highlights/home.html
    watto_cobraFileMakerFellerdanoxjony0
  • Reply 14 of 24
    MacPro said:
    I assume Sony currently supplies Apple at the moment. It will be some feat to best Sony IMHO.   Given Sony also provides sensors for Samsung Galaxy and Google Pixel, not to mention Sony's sensors are also used in a wide range of non-phone cameras, from point-and-shoots to professional DSLRs and mirrorless cameras. Some major camera manufacturers that use Sony sensors include Nikon, Canon, and Fujifilm. To add to Sony's impressive lineup, Sony's new sensor used in the global shutter technology in the A9III is a phenomenal achievement which I would have thought Apple would have lept at.
    Thanks very much for the headsup on the universal shutter, MacPro. I went looking and found some preliminary info on at least one camera review site (dpreview.com). It does indeed seem a ground-breaking development. My current mirrorless DSLR (an OM-1) uses a(n allegedly SONY) stacked sensor, but this is something way beyond what’s in my camera. I’ll be watching this with intense interest. 
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 15 of 24
    mattinozmattinoz Posts: 2,345member
    Xed said:
    MacPro said:
    I assume Sony currently supplies Apple at the moment. It will be some feat to best Sony IMHO.   Given Sony also provides sensors for Samsung Galaxy and Google Pixel, not to mention Sony's sensors are also used in a wide range of non-phone cameras, from point-and-shoots to professional DSLRs and mirrorless cameras. Some major camera manufacturers that use Sony sensors include Nikon, Canon, and Fujifilm. To add to Sony's impressive lineup, Sony's new sensor used in the global shutter technology in the A9III is a phenomenal achievement which I would have thought Apple would have lept at.
    It will be, but Apple also doesn't have to beat Sony to benefit from trying to compete with Sony. If Sony perceives Apple's intentions as a threat to their bottom line they can lower prices for Apple to make it less advantageous for Apple to move to a difference vendor.
    Apple has traded innovation from in-house research for favourable terms or advanced suppliers from manufacturers before. 

    They don't need to beat Sony; they need to beat them to ideas that suit Apple but might not be in Sony's focus at this point. To keep the development heading in the direction Apple wants it to move. 
    Alex1Nwatto_cobraFileMakerFellerdanox
  • Reply 16 of 24
    Personally i feel that Apple is stretched as-is on the silicon side. Baseband modem design in the works, a plethora of SoCs and co-processors to maintain.

    Sony is best in class and will be very hard to beat and the question is - aside from unit price, what is currently a pain point with Sony’s sensors?

    I just do not see any limitations at this stage and seems like the ISP component inside the SoC combined with the Neural Engine may be better areas of deep innovation and investment due to so much more being done in computational photography.

    Photo sensor is not a piece of silicon that can be integrated into the AS chip as is physically separate. Baseband modem seems like a more logical SoC integration piece which they are already working on.

    Vision Pro may throw up a range of pain points worthy of investment though.

    Personally i am hoping they are doubling down on GPU, ISP and Neural Engine advancements instead. More direct to satellite tech in the iPhone would also be fantastic.
    netroxmattinozAlex1NFileMakerFeller
  • Reply 17 of 24
    Sure apple is considering it. But actually becoming a camera company and expecting to whoop up on Sony? Not yet if ever. 
  • Reply 18 of 24
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,530member
    I’m surprised Apple hasn't done this earlier. Sony could still manufacturer the sensors, or Canon could. It’s less the manufacturing than the design though. Sensors are vastly easier than current modems. That doesn’t mean that it is easy. But I imagine Apple has engineers who have been investigating this for some time. And Apple has to,have a good understanding of it to just design cameras around current sensors, so it isn’t as though it will be entirely new for them. In past years they even stated that the sensors they use have Apple technology, so possibly they already have some Apple DNA inside.

    doing their own would be advantageous not necessarily because Apple could design a better sensor, but because they could design one that matches the way their SoC and software manipulates the info coming off the sensor. Right now, they have to work with whatever the sensor provides. That means the specific limitations of the sensor has to be understood and worked around. Their own sensor could be worked to give better results where Apple believes they can do less with the results, and slightly worse where they can do better with it. I know that sound like stepping backwards, but it isn’t. It’s playing into Apple’s strengths

    id like to see Apple design a sensor with more onboard processing than they have now. This has been a trend over the years, but it has a long way to go. Apple can do this much better than Sony could.

    nikon has an agreement with Sony to modify their designs which Sony then produces from them. It’s a reason why Nikon is understood to be able to pull slightly more IQ out of it than Sony does in their own cameras with the same sensor. That shows that Sony’s designs, by themselves, aren’t the best that can be done. There’s plenty of room for improvement in camera sensors. I’d love to see if Apple can make those improvements.
    edited November 2023 FileMakerFellerAlex1Ndanoxtmay
  • Reply 19 of 24
    Normally, I would say that a bit of competition is beneficial for the climate of innovation. However, in the case of SONY and their near-complete dominance in the camera sensor market, they have consistently impressed with their achievements in repeatedly disrupting their own products. This disruption has been in a very positive sense, and almost entirely without any pressure from competition.

    With that said, I still think Apple could find some upside in designing their own camera sensors. And perhaps they have found a completely new and clever way of integrating this with other tech skills that no company has yet thought of.

    I’m just giving one idea here: The first thing that happens after a picture is taken in an iPhone today is it’s sent through various AI processing. This means the signals move from light capturing on the sensor plate, which is parallel, to shift-out serialization, and then back to parallel processing in the neural net. It would have been so much more efficient if the camera sensor elements (or bins of them) were directly connected to the AI circuit. Of course I’m not talking about simply slapping the two chips onto each other. This would require a bit more of chip engineering, but it would revolutionize image capturing/processing in ways that SONY couldn’t. It would resemble how a biological eye-brain system works.
    FileMakerFellerAlex1Ndanox
  • Reply 20 of 24
    danoxdanox Posts: 2,955member
    Xed said:
    lmasanti said:
    It makes total sense!

    Apple likes to own the basic technologies that are the foundation of their devices.

    Long ago… Phil Schiller said that ‘Apple is the biggest camera company.’
    People buys iPhones… at least the ones with the higher prices… for its cameras.

    Apple owns its silicon, is going to own its modem… why not camera sensors?
    Considering their volume it does make sense. If they can pull it off they'd be able to slash component prices long term while offering a better overall product. My question is how much money and time will it take to get there?
    Indeterminate it takes what it takes……
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