Erm . Sony's annual financial reports. They are in the public domain.
C.
i took you to task to back up your figures with specific citations (you didn't) and you declined (as i knew you would) because you simply tossed off numbers to push your agenda (as expected).
Sony is nowhere near in bad shape as you claim. significant losses were incurred, absolutely, with most hardware console launches and it takes years to recover. the main three (3) hardware console manufacturers (i.e., Sony, Microsoft and Nintendo) are all doing well with clear and distinct indications. and, for the record, i think iOS is a great platform for casual gaming. the market is large enough for the dedicated gaming devices like the Sony NGP and PS3 as well as the casual mobile gaming devices that run Android or iOS.
i took you to task to back up your figures with specific citations (you didn't) and you declined (as i knew you would) because you simply tossed off numbers to push your agenda (as expected).
Sony is nowhere near in bad shape as you claim. losses were incurred, absolutely, with most hardware console launches and it takes years to recover. the main three (3) hardware console manufacturers (i.e., Sony, Microsoft and Nintendo) are all doing well with clear and distinct indications. and, for the record, i think iOS is a great platform for casual gaming. the market is large enough for the dedicated gaming devices like the Sony NGP and PS3 as well as the casual mobile gaming devices that run Android or iOS.
You need to look at YEAR END reports. Not third quarter!
You need to look at YEAR END reports. Not third quarter!
C.
third link of http://forums.appleinsider.com/showp...8&postcount=66 summaries year end reports up until 2009. quarter end results of subsequent years are over at http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/IR/financial/fr/ it seems that Q4 2010 shows an operating profit http://bit.ly/hw2Z5M (with year end losses significantly reduced compared to 09). having said all this, the fact remains you exaggerate for the purposes to supporting a false claim. although i acknowledge people, including myself, do make mistakes in forum postings i simply couldn't let such a gross fallacy of Sony's problems in the console gaming arena go unchallenged.
i dislike the bashing of any company (including Apple); it's so childish.
third link of http://forums.appleinsider.com/showp...8&postcount=66 summaries year end reports up until 2009. quarter end results of subsequent years are over at http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/IR/financial/fr/ it seems that Q4 2010 shows an operating profit http://bit.ly/hw2Z5M (with year end losses significantly reduced compared to 09). having said all this, the fact remains you exaggerate for the purposes to supporting a false claim. although i acknowledge people, including myself, do make mistakes in forum postings i simply couldn't let such a gross fallacy of Sony's problems in the console gaming arena go unchallenged.
i dislike the bashing of any company (including Apple); it's so childish.
And you need to look at just the profits of the game division - and not the entire company. Which is largely profitable.
My point is that the PS3 was a flop. Not that Sony as a whole was a flop.
And you need to look at just the profits of the game division - and not the entire company. Which is largely profitable ... My point is that the PS3 was a flop.
off-topic
i quoted year end gaming division losses by Sony. here's the link yet again http://neogaf.net/forum/showpost.php...6&postcount=90 fiscal year 2010 (which ends in April 2011 for Sony, i believe) may be a very good year for the Sony division under which the PS3 is included. and, simply put, your view on the PS3 is absolutely and totally unfounded; market realities simply do not support your agenda here. designing, manufacturing and distributing a product as complex as the PS3 is a non-trivial task. worldwide sales of almost 48 million (ending FY Q3 2010) http://www.scei.co.jp/corporate/data...s3_sale_e.html is impressive, especially with the various instances of new technology residing within the console.
on-topic
if there are indications within iOS 4.3 that gaming will have a higher profile, this will only lead to great things for Apple. recently, Ubisoft alluded to an interest in developing games for mobile devices (apart from the Nintendo 3DS and Sony NGP) http://www.joystiq.com/2011/02/14/ub...t-the-other-m/
i quoted year end gaming division losses by Sony. here's the link yet again http://neogaf.net/forum/showpost.php...6&postcount=90 fiscal year 2010 (which ends in April 2011 for Sony, i believe) may be a very good year for the Sony division under which the PS3 is included. and, simply put, your view on the PS3 is absolutely and totally unfounded; market realities simply do not support your agenda here. designing, manufacturing and distributing a product as complex as the PS3 is a non-trivial task. worldwide sales of almost 48 million (ending FY Q3 2010) http://www.scei.co.jp/corporate/data...s3_sale_e.html is impressive, especially with the various instances of new technology residing within the console.
What those number show, is that since the introduction of the PS3 - Sony's gaming division has lost money. If Sony were a ship, the PS3 would be a big hole, letting water in and letting cash out.
The majority of the 48M sales were at a loss. Sony hoped that revenues from games sales would compensate them for the loss. But the attach rates of the PS3 were very low. And so the PS3 project didn't go into profit.
There were a bunch of reasons for this.
1) The technology was too expensive to develop. Costing Sony dearly. And causing them to be late to market.
2) The technology was exotic and difficult and expensive to develop for. This slowed the production of games, and drove many developers to rival platforms. Sony failed to create an easy development environment. And often had to deploy engineers into developer teams to assist them.
3) The performance of the exotic technology was not sufficiently better than rival products. (And according to some arguably worse.)
4) The inclusion of Blu Ray had many people buying the console as a BR player. These purchasers did not buy any games. Which drove down the attach rates.
Honestly, it has been a disaster for Sony. It's possible that over the next 5 years, the PS3 will bring in gigantic profits which will erase the epic losses of the past. But I don't think many analysts think that is going to happen.
Also, I am not arguing that the 360 is without faults. It has. Plenty.
My point is a wider one. The pursuit of the hardcore gamer by Sony and Microsoft, has not turned out to be a smart move. The costs of developing games has been rising at a rate linked to Moore's law. The revenues from games has been rising much more slowly.
We are now seeing a lot of studios go out of business because of this decision.
What those number show, is that since the introduction of the PS3 - Sony's gaming division has lost money ... The majority of the 48M sales were at a loss.
cost of business; no surprise.
Quote:
My point is a wider one. The pursuit of the hardcore gamer by Sony and Microsoft, has not turned out to be a smart move.
your point relied on fiction to bolster an unfounded bias. this claim of "the pursuit of the hardcore label" is also myopic at best. witness the breadth of games available via the PSN and LIVE for two examples, as well as the library of games for the PlayStation brand since 1994. the likes of Sony, Nintendo, Microsoft and Apple have been and will continue to do well in the gaming industry.
Successful businesses make profits. Failing businesses lose money.
The PS3, as a platform, has been a financial disaster for Sony.
Partly this was caused by a number of disastrous engineering decisions. Made by engineers who don't really understand the nature of the industry.
But also by targeting the device solely at a minority audience : the hardcore games market.
Quote:
Originally Posted by emacs72
your point relied on fiction to bolster an unfounded bias. this claim of "the pursuit of the hardcore label" is also myopic at best. witness the breadth of games available via the PSN and LIVE for two examples, as well as the library of games for the PlayStation brand since 1994. the likes of Sony, Nintendo, Microsoft and Apple have been and will continue to do well in the gaming industry.
What fiction? What bias?
I have worked in the gaming industry since its inception. Costs of game production have risen explosively to keep up with increasing power in the platforms. And while costs have risen, revenues have not kept up. How could they? Hence the declining number of titles, studio closures and collapsing profits.
An average hardcore game now costs $15M to make and $15M to market. And yet typical sales are usually in the 300K to 750K area. When the money is shared out, only the stores and advertising companies are making a profit.
However there is a way to make money with games. When...
1) Production costs are kept under control
2) Products are targeted at the widest possible audience.
Nintendo understands this. Also the PSN and XBLA sub-platforms also address this common sense approach. And we are seeing the app store focus on these values.
Unfortunately targeting an industry to meet the needs of a small and demanding minority didn't work. And Sony's collapse in profitability proves this.
The future will be in downloaded mass-market titles with modest production costs.
The bluray license fees for the next 20 years will more than make up for it. As I suspect, Bluray will be around for a long time, and most locales don't have fiber to the premises to support effective video over IP, nor will they in 20 years. Doing business today is about selling to emerging markets.
Nonetheless, I am not so interested in Sony or the PS3. Sony has to fight just to stay relevant in any industry there are a part of, now. MS, well, it is increasingly the same thing. Portable games and simple games are much more interesting to me as the market goes, and you don't always need advanced HW to run them.
My numbers came from Sony's financial reports. Take it up with them.
i checked the sources mentioned at http://forums.appleinsider.com/showp...0&postcount=68 (which are, in fact, related to their game division) and the numbers you posted don't match up at all against published results. if you're going to be critical against a non-Apple company, with quantitative means, the least you can do is be factual.
i checked the sources mentioned at http://forums.appleinsider.com/showp...0&postcount=68 (which are, in fact, related to their game division) and the numbers you posted don't match up at all against published results. if you're going to be critical against a non-Apple company, with quantitative means, the least you can do is be factual.
I made that table some while ago. So I thought I should go back and check my numbers. I went to the Sony website and collated the year end figures for the game division. The 2010 figure represents "Network Services" which includes games.
It turns out I *had* made an error with the Yen -> Dollar exchange rate. And I had one year totally wrong. I apologise for this.
But the point I was trying to make has really not changed. These figures represent a colossal disaster for Sony. There is no imaginable scenario in which the console will repay these losses.
It turns out I *had* made an error with the Yen -> Dollar exchange rate. And I had one year totally wrong. I apologise for this.
I have redone the figures ...
yes. all i wanted was to ensure the facts are presented.
Quote:
But the point I was trying to make has really not changed. These figures represent a colossal disaster for Sony.
this is where is our opinions disagree. although it's clear the Network Products & Services division faced significant losses for several quarters, the trends indicate improvement. fiscal year ends of 2011 and 2012 should be interesting to note.
One or two years of modest profits will not un-do this disaster ...
i don't harbour some near-pathological pessimism for a consumer electronics division so i'm unfazed as to when and by how much the company will see returns of their investment. and it's timely to see the state of the gaming industry given we're in the midst of GDC.
Comments
define win and what objective metrics are used in such a definition, and also tell us what signs you are alluding to in your claim.
Sony Game Division Profits
2006 ($872M) loss
2007 ($2800M) loss
2008 ($1510M) loss
2009 ($700M) loss
2010 ($88M) loss
C.
Sony Game Division Profits
2006 ($872M) loss
2007 ($2800M) loss
2008 ($1510M) loss
2009 ($700M) loss
2010 ($88M) loss
C.
... and where are the citations for these figures?
... and where are the citations for these figures?
Erm . Sony's annual financial reports. They are in the public domain.
C.
Erm . Sony's annual financial reports. They are in the public domain.
C.
i took you to task to back up your figures with specific citations (you didn't) and you declined (as i knew you would) because you simply tossed off numbers to push your agenda (as expected).
here are the real numbers
http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/IR/fina.../09q3_sony.pdf
http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/IR/fina.../10q3_sony.pdf
http://neogaf.net/forum/showpost.php...6&postcount=90
Sony is nowhere near in bad shape as you claim. significant losses were incurred, absolutely, with most hardware console launches and it takes years to recover. the main three (3) hardware console manufacturers (i.e., Sony, Microsoft and Nintendo) are all doing well with clear and distinct indications. and, for the record, i think iOS is a great platform for casual gaming. the market is large enough for the dedicated gaming devices like the Sony NGP and PS3 as well as the casual mobile gaming devices that run Android or iOS.
i took you to task to back up your figures with specific citations (you didn't) and you declined (as i knew you would) because you simply tossed off numbers to push your agenda (as expected).
here are the real numbers
http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/IR/fina.../09q3_sony.pdf
http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/IR/fina.../10q3_sony.pdf
http://neogaf.net/forum/showpost.php...6&postcount=90
Sony is nowhere near in bad shape as you claim. losses were incurred, absolutely, with most hardware console launches and it takes years to recover. the main three (3) hardware console manufacturers (i.e., Sony, Microsoft and Nintendo) are all doing well with clear and distinct indications. and, for the record, i think iOS is a great platform for casual gaming. the market is large enough for the dedicated gaming devices like the Sony NGP and PS3 as well as the casual mobile gaming devices that run Android or iOS.
You need to look at YEAR END reports. Not third quarter!
C.
You need to look at YEAR END reports. Not third quarter!
C.
third link of http://forums.appleinsider.com/showp...8&postcount=66 summaries year end reports up until 2009. quarter end results of subsequent years are over at http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/IR/financial/fr/ it seems that Q4 2010 shows an operating profit http://bit.ly/hw2Z5M (with year end losses significantly reduced compared to 09). having said all this, the fact remains you exaggerate for the purposes to supporting a false claim. although i acknowledge people, including myself, do make mistakes in forum postings i simply couldn't let such a gross fallacy of Sony's problems in the console gaming arena go unchallenged.
i dislike the bashing of any company (including Apple); it's so childish.
third link of http://forums.appleinsider.com/showp...8&postcount=66 summaries year end reports up until 2009. quarter end results of subsequent years are over at http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/IR/financial/fr/ it seems that Q4 2010 shows an operating profit http://bit.ly/hw2Z5M (with year end losses significantly reduced compared to 09). having said all this, the fact remains you exaggerate for the purposes to supporting a false claim. although i acknowledge people, including myself, do make mistakes in forum postings i simply couldn't let such a gross fallacy of Sony's problems in the console gaming arena go unchallenged.
i dislike the bashing of any company (including Apple); it's so childish.
And you need to look at just the profits of the game division - and not the entire company. Which is largely profitable.
My point is that the PS3 was a flop. Not that Sony as a whole was a flop.
C.
And you need to look at just the profits of the game division - and not the entire company. Which is largely profitable ... My point is that the PS3 was a flop.
off-topic
i quoted year end gaming division losses by Sony. here's the link yet again http://neogaf.net/forum/showpost.php...6&postcount=90 fiscal year 2010 (which ends in April 2011 for Sony, i believe) may be a very good year for the Sony division under which the PS3 is included. and, simply put, your view on the PS3 is absolutely and totally unfounded; market realities simply do not support your agenda here. designing, manufacturing and distributing a product as complex as the PS3 is a non-trivial task. worldwide sales of almost 48 million (ending FY Q3 2010) http://www.scei.co.jp/corporate/data...s3_sale_e.html is impressive, especially with the various instances of new technology residing within the console.
on-topic
if there are indications within iOS 4.3 that gaming will have a higher profile, this will only lead to great things for Apple. recently, Ubisoft alluded to an interest in developing games for mobile devices (apart from the Nintendo 3DS and Sony NGP) http://www.joystiq.com/2011/02/14/ub...t-the-other-m/
off-topic
i quoted year end gaming division losses by Sony. here's the link yet again http://neogaf.net/forum/showpost.php...6&postcount=90 fiscal year 2010 (which ends in April 2011 for Sony, i believe) may be a very good year for the Sony division under which the PS3 is included. and, simply put, your view on the PS3 is absolutely and totally unfounded; market realities simply do not support your agenda here. designing, manufacturing and distributing a product as complex as the PS3 is a non-trivial task. worldwide sales of almost 48 million (ending FY Q3 2010) http://www.scei.co.jp/corporate/data...s3_sale_e.html is impressive, especially with the various instances of new technology residing within the console.
What those number show, is that since the introduction of the PS3 - Sony's gaming division has lost money. If Sony were a ship, the PS3 would be a big hole, letting water in and letting cash out.
The majority of the 48M sales were at a loss. Sony hoped that revenues from games sales would compensate them for the loss. But the attach rates of the PS3 were very low. And so the PS3 project didn't go into profit.
There were a bunch of reasons for this.
1) The technology was too expensive to develop. Costing Sony dearly. And causing them to be late to market.
2) The technology was exotic and difficult and expensive to develop for. This slowed the production of games, and drove many developers to rival platforms. Sony failed to create an easy development environment. And often had to deploy engineers into developer teams to assist them.
3) The performance of the exotic technology was not sufficiently better than rival products. (And according to some arguably worse.)
4) The inclusion of Blu Ray had many people buying the console as a BR player. These purchasers did not buy any games. Which drove down the attach rates.
Honestly, it has been a disaster for Sony. It's possible that over the next 5 years, the PS3 will bring in gigantic profits which will erase the epic losses of the past. But I don't think many analysts think that is going to happen.
Also, I am not arguing that the 360 is without faults. It has. Plenty.
My point is a wider one. The pursuit of the hardcore gamer by Sony and Microsoft, has not turned out to be a smart move. The costs of developing games has been rising at a rate linked to Moore's law. The revenues from games has been rising much more slowly.
We are now seeing a lot of studios go out of business because of this decision.
C.
What those number show, is that since the introduction of the PS3 - Sony's gaming division has lost money ... The majority of the 48M sales were at a loss.
cost of business; no surprise.
My point is a wider one. The pursuit of the hardcore gamer by Sony and Microsoft, has not turned out to be a smart move.
your point relied on fiction to bolster an unfounded bias. this claim of "the pursuit of the hardcore label" is also myopic at best. witness the breadth of games available via the PSN and LIVE for two examples, as well as the library of games for the PlayStation brand since 1994. the likes of Sony, Nintendo, Microsoft and Apple have been and will continue to do well in the gaming industry.
cost of business; no surprise.
What?
Successful businesses make profits. Failing businesses lose money.
The PS3, as a platform, has been a financial disaster for Sony.
Partly this was caused by a number of disastrous engineering decisions. Made by engineers who don't really understand the nature of the industry.
But also by targeting the device solely at a minority audience : the hardcore games market.
your point relied on fiction to bolster an unfounded bias. this claim of "the pursuit of the hardcore label" is also myopic at best. witness the breadth of games available via the PSN and LIVE for two examples, as well as the library of games for the PlayStation brand since 1994. the likes of Sony, Nintendo, Microsoft and Apple have been and will continue to do well in the gaming industry.
What fiction? What bias?
I have worked in the gaming industry since its inception. Costs of game production have risen explosively to keep up with increasing power in the platforms. And while costs have risen, revenues have not kept up. How could they? Hence the declining number of titles, studio closures and collapsing profits.
An average hardcore game now costs $15M to make and $15M to market. And yet typical sales are usually in the 300K to 750K area. When the money is shared out, only the stores and advertising companies are making a profit.
However there is a way to make money with games. When...
1) Production costs are kept under control
2) Products are targeted at the widest possible audience.
Nintendo understands this. Also the PSN and XBLA sub-platforms also address this common sense approach. And we are seeing the app store focus on these values.
Unfortunately targeting an industry to meet the needs of a small and demanding minority didn't work. And Sony's collapse in profitability proves this.
The future will be in downloaded mass-market titles with modest production costs.
C.
What?
several console manufacturers sell their devices at a loss during launch and for a period of time thereafter.
What fiction? What bias?
http://forums.appleinsider.com/showp...3&postcount=64
several console manufacturers sell their devices at a loss during launch and for a period of time thereafter.
Yes. I have worked in the games industry since forever. We all understand this.
But as I understand it, the idea is to sell consoles at a loss, but to eventually make an overall profit.
Sony has not done this. Even if they had five straight years of modest profits, it would not fill-in the grand-canyon sized pit of debt.
I say again, by any rational and dispassionate perspective, the PS3 has been an unparalleled commercial disaster for Sony.
http://forums.appleinsider.com/showp...3&postcount=64
My numbers came from Sony's financial reports. Take it up with them.
C.
Sony Game Division Profits
2006 ($872M) loss
2007 ($2800M) loss
2008 ($1510M) loss
2009 ($700M) loss
2010 ($88M) loss
C.
The bluray license fees for the next 20 years will more than make up for it. As I suspect, Bluray will be around for a long time, and most locales don't have fiber to the premises to support effective video over IP, nor will they in 20 years. Doing business today is about selling to emerging markets.
Nonetheless, I am not so interested in Sony or the PS3. Sony has to fight just to stay relevant in any industry there are a part of, now. MS, well, it is increasingly the same thing. Portable games and simple games are much more interesting to me as the market goes, and you don't always need advanced HW to run them.
The bluray license fees for the next 20 years will more than make up for it.
I'd happily take a bet against that.
C.
My numbers came from Sony's financial reports. Take it up with them.
i checked the sources mentioned at http://forums.appleinsider.com/showp...0&postcount=68 (which are, in fact, related to their game division) and the numbers you posted don't match up at all against published results. if you're going to be critical against a non-Apple company, with quantitative means, the least you can do is be factual.
i checked the sources mentioned at http://forums.appleinsider.com/showp...0&postcount=68 (which are, in fact, related to their game division) and the numbers you posted don't match up at all against published results. if you're going to be critical against a non-Apple company, with quantitative means, the least you can do is be factual.
I made that table some while ago. So I thought I should go back and check my numbers. I went to the Sony website and collated the year end figures for the game division. The 2010 figure represents "Network Services" which includes games.
It turns out I *had* made an error with the Yen -> Dollar exchange rate. And I had one year totally wrong. I apologise for this.
I have redone the figures.
Anyone who wants to double check can look at
http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/IR/financial/fr/index.html
But the point I was trying to make has really not changed. These figures represent a colossal disaster for Sony. There is no imaginable scenario in which the console will repay these losses.
C.
It turns out I *had* made an error with the Yen -> Dollar exchange rate. And I had one year totally wrong. I apologise for this.
I have redone the figures ...
yes. all i wanted was to ensure the facts are presented.
But the point I was trying to make has really not changed. These figures represent a colossal disaster for Sony.
this is where is our opinions disagree. although it's clear the Network Products & Services division faced significant losses for several quarters, the trends indicate improvement. fiscal year ends of 2011 and 2012 should be interesting to note.
fiscal year ends of 2011 and 2012 should be interesting to note.
One or two years of modest profits will not un-do this disaster. Finding a penny on Friday is no compensation for losing your whole wallet on Monday.
This platform is old already. There are too few titles appearing, and development costs remain stubbornly high.
If there is a credible scenario in which the PS3 gets to break-even, I for one, cannot see it.
And remember what break-even means; That the supposed leading company in videogames has sat for eight or ten years and not made a single penny.
C.
One or two years of modest profits will not un-do this disaster ...
i don't harbour some near-pathological pessimism for a consumer electronics division so i'm unfazed as to when and by how much the company will see returns of their investment. and it's timely to see the state of the gaming industry given we're in the midst of GDC.