<strong>I shed religious piousness a long time ago...
I am a humanist, thats it...</strong><hr></blockquote>
Ok
[quote]<strong>I dont believe the world will end (If it ever does) by any other means than the direct stupidity of man...</strong><hr></blockquote>
Ok, so war, or a biological accident or some doofus mkaing a mistake with anti-matter or such then? So there is really no way to provide a timeline for this argument, could happen tomorrow, could never happen. Ok.
[quote]<strong>mini-rant...
this is what switched me to a humanist...
---
I believe god exists...
I think god exist...
The same thing right? both are basically uncertainty...</strong><hr></blockquote>
I believe the world is round. I have never been in space to see it for myself but that is what I am taught in school, all pictures on TV show it as such, and my globe on my desk is round. However I have no direct knowledge that this is the case, I take it on faith that I am not being lied to by NASA and other organizations and that it is a fact because of this.
I also have faith that when i sit down in a chair it will hold me up. Sometimes that faith is unfounded and the chair collapses under my weight, but for the most part my faith is well placed.
That is the same type of faith that I have in God. Only I trust God much more implicitly.
[quote]<strong>I belief, faith, I think...
All these religous "believers" seem to "know" everything... And get really when you question their "beliefs"... And they fight and argue with each other both verbally and physically... about what's what... And this can get really out of hand...</strong><hr></blockquote>
Many religious believers are this way. Not all. And yes there is far too much bickering in the church. This division is one main point that keeps people such as yourself from seeing the church as anything but religious factions that do not practice what they preach. This is not all churches, but it is some of the more visible ones, and it is pervasive enough that it can be found almost everywhere.
[quote]<strong>Even thou their "fiath" is based solely in uncertainty/"I belief" mentality...
Until I hear any evidence on god... the whole thing is too be held questionable...
This does not mean I am a cold hearted bast@rd... I am a very nice guy, I just believe that theories should remain theories... and be regarded as such...</strong><hr></blockquote>
All faith is there though. The evidence for God is all around you. But if you choose to not see it in that light I cannot change your mind. He is not going to appear to you tomorrow and shake your hand. (He might, but since an impure human cannot live in his presence it would be a short lived, in human form, pleasure. )
Nobody says you are a cold hearted b@st@rd. Least of all me.
[quote]<strong>and a quote:
"Even of what little bit you think you do know, You dont know the half of it..." - The Arrival
Just being a human means you can never know everything... surety is an illusion...
Those quotes can go both ways. I see them as pushing people to let go of their conceptions of what they think they no and to embrace the possibility (reality) that God is real and he loves them. What do you see in these quotes?
[quote]<strong>---
[Edited: Removed this portion... before it might have gotten me into trouble...]
---</strong><hr></blockquote>
Ok. I would be interested to know what was so horrible, but I can live without seeing it.
[quote]<strong>The day I became a humanist...
I went to church once when I was 20 before I had to leave for a long time... And I am a very respectfull person and give people the "benifit of the doubt"... But I could hardly keep from cracking up "out loud"... I couldnt belive people actually let this garbage thru their "reason" filters...</strong><hr></blockquote>
What garbage? What was said? If it made such a huge impression on you so as to push you away from all religion you must remember some of it. Oh, and what church was it? Just curious...
[quote]<strong>I large group of people sang some "whacked out" almost un-intelligible 2000BC song... not that well, I might add... SO many thee's and thou's its hard to understand a word that was uttered...</strong><hr></blockquote>
2000 BC? Wow, a Chrsitian song from before Christ himself. Now that is prophetic!!! What song?
[quote]<strong>ANd then this idiot preacher started droning on-and-on about the same thing for an hour...(I am talking proffesional circular thought here people) then I guess it was "break time" and everyone got up and went over to the snack counter... after this everybody was paired up into "prayer circles"... </strong><hr></blockquote>
Since it was the same thing for an hour, what was he droning on and on about? This story goes nowhere without a little bit of facts.
This time is called fellowship. It is a time for you to get to know your fellow church member and to help them in their struggles. It is a basic tenet of the church for us to pray for one another and build one another up in Christ. The food helps you to relax and enjoy the toime and not think aobut how hungry you are and how you want to go home and eat. I see nothing here too outlandish.
[quote]<strong>This was heart breaking... And at the same time, I almost had a heart attack luaghing inside...
My stupidity alarm was going off "left and right"...
these guys were pouring their hearts out in front on me... this was somewhat scary and unbelievably korny... it was like a football huddle... then it was just over and the open the door to let the people(sheep) out...<hr></blockquote></strong>
Heart breaking? Like when you pour out your heart to someone and he is having a heart attack laughing about it inside while his "stupidity alarm" is going off?
BTW, how do you know it just ended there? Did you make any attempt to meet with any of these people after the time of fellowship was over? I go to barbeques with my church members at their homes sometimes. We go out to movies, river rafting, etc. When something happens that causes me real distress I can talk to my pastors about it, or any church memebers and they can comfort me and sometimes even give real help (in your eyes), beyond the prayer that is always present.
[quote]<strong>And that was the day I became a humanist...
If what I saw there was indicative of the majority of what passes for the norm... we are soo screwed... as a species...
end mini-rant
I am sorry if I have led off track here i just needed to get some stuff of my chest...</strong><hr></blockquote>
This whole post was somewhat off topic but I wanted to answer you on some things. Most of my answers were genuine curiosity. Others were merely observations. None were meant as an attack on you.
<strong>I'm a little concerned about you Noah - you seem obsessed with this topic. Maybe your parents should have named you John rather than Noah? But come to think of it, Noah was kinda apocalyptic too.
When will the world end? Really, I have no idea. I don't believe people can predict much of anything about the future. It's clear to me that financial analysts can't predict interest rates or stock performance. It's clear that psychologists can't predict behavior. Etc.
It's tough to live with uncertainty, but you get used to it after a while.
<- me, trying to predict the future</strong><hr></blockquote>
Not obsessed, intrigued. Besides, it makes for interesting conversations, and sometimes you can even find a good story or two in there that are worth thinking about and repeating later. If nothing else it gets me thinking...I am also not able to predict the future with times and dates, but I believe that there is a roadmap that has been laid out that gives a good idea of how everything will go down when it does.
[quote] The evidence for God is all around you <hr></blockquote>
Now thats an open statement....
The evidence of Buhhda, Alla, gnomes and the tooth fairy is all around you... But if you choose to not see it in that light I cannot change your mind. they are not going to appear to you tomorrow and shake your hand. (they might, but since an impure human cannot live in his presence it would be a short lived, in human form, pleasure. ) <-- thats a bit convenient...
If your willing to suspend any logical answers and only require faith as your guide... then when I see "all" those presents under the tree at christmas...
"I have seen the evidence that santa clause exist..."
but if you look into it a little further... ... ...
---
If you want details... I cant give them too you... I dont remember what the preacher was talking about, the minute he began to overlap I began to look around the room only paying him random moments of attention to keep track...
[quote] Ok, so war, or a biological accident or some doofus making a mistake with anti-matter or such then? So there is really no way to provide a timeline for this argument, could happen tomorrow, could never happen. Ok. <hr></blockquote>
WTH... kind of logic is that?... I am sure that the people who went to work in the trade towers never thought anything like that could happen either...
Heck, nobody did...
Well, a few people did but no one listened...
[quote] Heart breaking? Like when you pour out your heart to someone and he is having a heart attack laughing about it inside while his "stupidity alarm" is going off? <hr></blockquote>
Yes it was really sad the thought proccesses and guilt trips that this religion perpetuates... the "fuzzy logic" that was being mutually accepted and reinforced by these believers was incredibly amuzing and yet very saddening...
The evidence of Buhhda, Alla, gnomes and the tooth fairy is all around you... But if you choose to not see it in that light I cannot change your mind. they are not going to appear to you tomorrow and shake your hand. (they might, but since an impure human cannot live in his presence it would be a short lived, in human form, pleasure. ) <-- thats a bit convenient...</strong><hr></blockquote>
Where is the evidence of the tooth fairy? Easter bunny? Gnomes? Buddha? I know where my thoughts come from.
Psalm 19
1 Psalm 19 For the director of music. A psalm of David.
1 The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands.
2 Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they display knowledge.
However I don't want this to become an argument thread about whether my beliefs or yours are right so I am going to answer your questions and try not to perpetuate it too far off topic.
It has been documented in ancient Israeli texts that the high priests that went into the temple of God would go in with a rope tied around their ankles. That way if they had not properly purified themselves before God and died in their encounter with Him they could be pulled out by the rope. Does not sound convenient to me.
[quote]<strong>If your willing to suspend any logical answers and only require faith as your guide... then when I see "all" those presents under the tree at christmas...
"I have seen the evidence that santa clause exist..."
but if you look into it a little further... ... ...</strong><hr></blockquote>
There is a big diffrence. First of all, Santa Clause did exist in one form, a long time ago as well. But there is no evidence that he could do any of what is attributed to him now. In fact, the santa we know now did not really exist until "Twas the Night Before Christams" was written. Nobody is trying to perpetuate the myth of Santa except as something for little kids to look foreward to. I am not teaching my kids that Santa is real. Sime things have no real useful purpose. Not that Santa is bad, i just don't see the use. I never believed in him, I don't feel like I missed anything.
[quote]<strong>If you want details... I cant give them too you... I dont remember what the preacher was talking about, the minute he began to overlap I began to look around the room only paying him random moments of attention to keep track...</strong><hr></blockquote>
That is too bad. Oh well.
[quote]<strong>WTH... kind of logic is that?... I am sure that the people who went to work in the trade towers never thought anything like that could happen either...<hr></blockquote></strong>
Whoa! :eek: Calm down there big guy! I was merely summing up yout point that was relevant to the topic. You do not believe the world is going to end, but if it does it will be by mens stupidity. Thus my quote that you reacted so vehemently to. Think sum up, not argument. Or did I miss your point?
[quote]<strong>Yes it was really sad the thought proccesses and guilt trips that this religion perpetuates... the "fuzzy logic" that was being mutually accepted and reinforced by these believers was incredibly amuzing and yet very saddening...
Read your link, at least partially. All of those things are brought up in bible as lit type courses. The unwillingness of the authour of that site to read in full context is amazing!
I will take one point. The one of the flood.
He states:
[quote]<strong>Contradictions also abound in the biblical account of a worldwide flood. Genesis 6:19-22 says that God ordered Noah to bring "of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort . . . into the ark." Genesis 7:2-3 states, however, that the Lord ordered Noah take into the ark the clean beasts and the birds by sevens and the unclean beasts by twos.
Genesis 7:17 relates that the flood lasted forty days, whereas Genesis 8:3 tells us it lasted one hundred and fifty days. Genesis 8:4 reports that, as the waters of the flood receded, Noah?s ark rested upon the mountains of Ararat in the seventh month. But the very next verse asserts that the mountaintops could not even be seen until the tenth month. Genesis 8:13 states that the earth was dry on the first day of the first month; contrariwise, Genesis 8:14 reports that the earth was not dry until the twenty-seventh day of the second month.</strong><hr></blockquote>
First of all, the animal were brought in 2X2. Male and Female. The 7 animals, clean and unclean, were for food for Noah and his wife and his sons and their wives. This was going to be a long trip, were they not supposed to bring lunch?
And as for the timeline. The Rains lasted 40 days and 40 nights. The flood itself lasted 150 days when the ark rested on the top of mount Ararat. The ark was how big? Very big. A lot of that boat is going to be under water. SO it stands to reason that the top of that mountain could still be covered with water for quite a while after the boat comes to rest on it, thus not visible over the water yet.
As far as the dryness is concerned. I will let you read the verse yourself.
13 By the first day of the first month of Noah's six hundred and first year, the water had dried up from the earth. Noah then removed the covering from the ark and saw that the surface of the ground was dry.
14 By the twenty-seventh day of the second month the earth was completely dry.
The water was dried up by the first month. Still a bit muddy though. By the end of the second month the ground had firmed up and completely dried.
This article goes on to nitpick like this throughout. I only picked the Ark one for brevity, I will not take time to put every one of his facts straight as I have a life outside of this discussion that I could not live if I were to do that. The article is fishy at best. They have an axe they are grinding, but they are not doing it well.
[quote]<strong>The Old Testament is further contradictory as to whether the Lord commanded the Israelites to sacrifice animals to him. According to Jeremiah 7:22, God denied that he ever gave the Israelites commandments about animal sacrifices. In contrast, Exodus 29:38-42 and many other verses in the Pentateuch clearly depict God as requiring the Israelites to offer animal sacrifices.<hr></blockquote></strong>
And now for a bit of reality and reading for comprehension:
22 For when I brought your forefathers out of Egypt and spoke to them, I did not just give them commands about burnt offerings and sacrifices,
23 but I gave them this command: Obey me, and I will be your God and you will be my people. Walk in all the ways I command you, that it may go well with you.
In case you missed it I bolded the operative word, just. It does not say I did not command you to.... It says, I did not JUST command you to...
Totally different meaning which the author could not be bothered with I guess.
Did you even research any of these claims, or do you just accept them as fact because the guy wrote a page about it and it sounds good to you? <img src="confused.gif" border="0">
I will now post the start of what I see as the beginning of the end. This will begin very generically and I will flesh it out as I go on. I will also go in depth as I can if there are any questions that arise along the way. In no way am I the end all expert on such things though so as usual, do your reading and call me on the carpet if I get it wrong!
In the last days there will be a few trends that will not be very obvious as they build up slowly over time. This is why I believe that everyone believes they are in the last days for years and years. These trends have, however, been getting steadily worse and I feel that eventually they will culminate in the beginning of the end.
Some of the signs:
Increase of false prophets and religious compromise within the church. Jesus in Matthew 24 is speaking on the end times. This will be also valid for many of the following points. He speaks of many coming in his name claiming to be the Christ and decieving many. This is reapeated in many other NT books.
Increase of crime and disregard of the law God laid out. People will be oblivious to others and not care so long as their lives are fulfilled and happy. They will not care about the ten commandments or self-purity as they will have found a more enlightened form of morality that allows them greater freedom than that which is laid out for them from their forefathers.
You will see a marked increase in war, famine, and earthquakes. Jesus says, that "You will hear of wars and rumors of wars", and also, "Nation will rise against Nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of birth pains."
There will be a decrease in love and family affection.
The persecution of believers in Jesus as saviour will increase. This is being seen in the Sudan and many other nations. Even in America being a Christian is compared with being part of the Taliban in much of the media.
These are some of the general points that can be found in the Bible. They are quite generic and no doubt many will say, "So, that happens all the time! Is that the best you can come up with?" I will answer, no. There is much more. These are just to set the stage for why the end must come (for those who believe in God and who He is).
They may seem weak to you humanists, and athiests, and pagans, and free thinkers who don't want to be labled. That is fine. I am just putting it out so you have the evidence in front of you. Feel free to post your own thoughts and interpretations.
Verses that were read to come up with some of this:
Matthew 10:21-23; 24:1-24
Luke 17:22-29
and many more, those were just a few to get you started.
It is impossible for us to comprehend certain things that mystify us about the universe. We don't know why we are here. We don't know how the universe was created. We don't know what happens after we die. These are all questions that cannot be answered. I choose not to make up stories or follow someone else's stories just to make myself feel a little better. I don't know what will happen after I die (other than being worm food) and it can be scary to think about it. However, I'm not going to simply make up a story that will comfort me.
Don't worry about things you can't understand. Now, some of you will cry, "Atheist!" Sorry to disappoint you, but I'm not an atheist. I simply just don't give a damn whether or not a god exists. If your god is as benevolent as you claim, I don't think he'd be so insecure as to condemn me to enternal pits of fire if I, a mere mortal, don't care to believe in him.
[quote]Originally posted by Exercise in Frivolity:
<strong>It is impossible for us to comprehend certain things that mystify us about the universe. We don't know why we are here. We don't know how the universe was created. We don't know what happens after we die. These are all questions that cannot be answered. I choose not to make up stories or follow someone else's stories just to make myself feel a little better. I don't know what will happen after I die (other than being worm food) and it can be scary to think about it. However, I'm not going to simply make up a story that will comfort me.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I can see your point of view here. I do not fear what happens after I die, but it definitely does intrigue me.
[quote]<strong>Don't worry about things you can't understand. Now, some of you will cry, "Atheist!" Sorry to disappoint you, but I'm not an atheist. I simply just don't give a damn whether or not a god exists. If your god is as benevolent as you claim, I don't think he'd be so insecure as to condemn me to enternal pits of fire if I, a mere mortal, don't care to believe in him.</strong><hr></blockquote>
John 3:16-17
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[2] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
2 Peter 3:8-10
8But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. 10But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.
As you say, it is your choice. And in the end you are held accountable for your choices. It is not God's fault what choice you make, He gave us freedom of choice so that when we do choose Him it is out of true love, not as a programmed robot.
This is off-topic, Noah, but what the heck. You've always been very open and honest about your thoughts on these topics, and so I don't want to flame you about it. But reading your thoughts is disturbing to me in a way, and reminds me of why I choose not to be religious.
Basically, that:
? there is a Supreme Being who will destroy the world
? this being will choose who is and isn't saved
? the rules for determining who is saved boil down to whether or not you believe in the being
? the evidence of the being is based on (IMO) vague hints and questionable historical events
It really seems like something out of science fiction to me, and in some ways, it seems like a cruel hoax.
Of course, just because it sounds ridiculous to me doesn't mean it's not true. But in my judgment, it's not true, and reading your thoughts about it makes me even more certain of that.
And to top it off, I really find it difficult to get into your mind and understand why someone would believe these things. It's different than political views, or tastes in music or movies - with those things I can completely understand why someone's experiences and personality lead to different opinions than mine.
But this - I just have a hard time appreciating where it comes from. It seems SO outlandish and patently ridiculous (sorry), that I just can't grasp why people believe in it.
And it's not from lack of exposure to people who believe it - I think around 95% of people believe in God, and my parents, and my entire extended family, and most of the people I interact with on a daily basis. But it doesn't help. I just don't get it.
It really does feel like some weird science fiction story where everyone acts like nothing is wrong, but they're all in on it together, like they're all aliens or vampires or something, and you're the only one who doesn't know.
I have noticed, though, that when this topic comes up, most people on internet boards seem to be atheists/agnostics. Hmmm...
Again, I don't mean to flame you, but you've been honest with your views, so there are mine.
<strong>This is off-topic, Noah, but what the heck. You've always been very open and honest about your thoughts on these topics, and so I don't want to flame you about it. But reading your thoughts is disturbing to me in a way, and reminds me of why I choose not to be religious.<hr></blockquote></strong>
First of all, questioning my beliefs is not flaming me, I have no problems answering questions at all. If I don't know the answer I will research it and get back later. Flaming to me is, "You're an idiot, why don't you go hang yourself from the nearest cross you homophobic bigot!" Or something of that mindset.
[quote]<strong>Basically, that:
? there is a Supreme Being who will destroy the world
? this being will choose who is and isn't saved
? the rules for determining who is saved boil down to whether or not you believe in the being
? the evidence of the being is based on (IMO) vague hints and questionable historical events</strong><hr></blockquote>
Point 1: Yes, this is a fact. This will be done because the creation became tainted and the only way to fix that is to completely destroy it an build it up again. Either that or remove free will and accept that your followers are mind numbed robots that have no choice but to follow you and do not truly love you by choice.
Point 2: Wrong. We choose to accept salvation. It is God's will that all be saved. Some point to the verse that says that only those called by God will be saved, but my further research has brought me to the conclusion that all are called by God. Only those who answer that call are saved, all others who reject the free gift of salvation are not save. Not God's choice, theirs.
Point 3: Basically, yes. If you want more on this I will be happy to expand with further questioning if I can.
Point 4: Depend on what you call vauge hints and questionable hitsorical events. I will neither concede this point nor disagree as it is far too open-ended to aswer in its present form.
[quote]<strong>It really seems like something out of science fiction to me, and in some ways, it seems like a cruel hoax.
Of course, just because it sounds ridiculous to me doesn't mean it's not true. But in my judgment, it's not true, and reading your thoughts about it makes me even more certain of that.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I am sorry to hear that. That was not my intention, and remember, I am not most knowlegable person, I just happen to have a bit of knowledge and am sharing said information with any who care to look.
BTW, what parts made you sure that this stance is wrong and why? I am truly interested to see if I am presenting things the way I intend to or not. It is hard to judge how others will read and interpret what I have written sometimes.
[quote]<strong>And to top it off, I really find it difficult to get into your mind and understand why someone would believe these things. It's different than political views, or tastes in music or movies - with those things I can completely understand why someone's experiences and personality lead to different opinions than mine.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I can see how that would be the case. Religion is one of the biggest polarizing points in the world. That, I feel, is because religion is not just a belief, it is typically a way of life and sometimes it does not make sense to those that do not agree with it or choose not to believe in it.
[quote]<strong>But this - I just have a hard time appreciating where it comes from. It seems SO outlandish and patently ridiculous (sorry), that I just can't grasp why people believe in it.
And it's not from lack of exposure to people who believe it - I think around 95% of people believe in God, and my parents, and my entire extended family, and most of the people I interact with on a daily basis. But it doesn't help. I just don't get it. </strong><hr></blockquote>
Heck, believing in God is easy. How hard can it be for most people to believe that there is something or someone out there that is responsible for many of the unexplained mysteries that confront us day after day? When you take it one step further and define your beliefs is where people start to diverge the most. The more narrowly you define it, the more divergence.
[quote]<strong>It really does feel like some weird science fiction story where everyone acts like nothing is wrong, but they're all in on it together, like they're all aliens or vampires or something, and you're the only one who doesn't know.</strong><hr></blockquote>
LOL! Like The Twilight Zone...
[quote]<strong>I have noticed, though, that when this topic comes up, most people on internet boards seem to be atheists/agnostics. Hmmm...
Again, I don't mean to flame you, but you've been honest with your views, so there are mine.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Thnank you for your sincerity. I hope I have answered your questions in such a way that you can live with. If not, feel free to ask more. If I am not clear to you, or you have a problem with any points I have made let me know. I am not trying to change your mind, just trying to put forth my viewpoint as clearly as possible so when you decide whether or not I am full of it that I am sure I put it forth clearly enough. As I have said before, I will answer what I can.
The next point of the events leading up to the end is a little thing known as "The Rapture". This part of the post for me will be short as I am the least sure of this than all the rest of the things I will post later on.
For those not aware, The Rapture is when the church is removed from the earth. You can argue who the Church is, and I would be interested to see some views on that, but I will suffice it to say, those that have accepted Jesus as their personal Lord and Saviour are supposed to be Raptured sometime near the end of the world.
There are three main views on when The Rapture is to happen. Pre-Tribulation, Mid-Tribulation, and Post-Tribulation.
I will get into the Tribulation in another post, but suffice it to say that this will be the hardest time in the history of man. The only paralell I can draw is the plagues on Egypt during Exodus, only global and worse.
Those who are Pre-Tribulation believe that God will pull out the Church before the Tribulation to keep them from any of the bad things that are to happen, sort of as a reward for being on the right side and sort of in protection like a father protects his children.
Those who are Mid-Tribulation believe that the Church will be pulled out in the middle of the Tribulation. The reasoning behind this is that the first part of the Tribulation will be mostly natural disasters and such, and when we get to the second and worst part of the Tribulation that will be when God pours out His wrath on a sinful world that refuses to accept Him. This for them makes sense that He would not make His Church live through this time as they would not be the objects of His wrath. This one is most reasonable to me, but I am unsure.
The last is Post-Tribulation. This is the least popular of the three. God will make everyone go through all of the Tribulation, and in the end those who stay loyal to him will be raptured. Harsh, but no one knows which is really true as the bible does not give a clear timeline on this that I can be absolutely sure I have interpreted right.
I heard of one other type that I fall squarely into. This type is called a Pan-Tribulation. This one falls under, it will all pan out in the end.
The start post of this thread is so wide in scope...
re. prophecy: this is definitely a large part of 'evangelical Christianity'. Do we live in a 'free-will zone'? Every moment of every instance in time there are 6 billion conscious humans making decisions and acting upon them, and each one of these affects the timeline. The number of interactions and decisions and choices is mindbogglingly immense, and the world is subject to change at each infinitessimally tiny slice of time. Each human decision, no matter how seemingly insignificant affects the course of history; the one world in which we exist at any moment in the present is just one of an almost infinity of parallel possibilities, or worlds that are outside of our consciousness. If there really is something concrete and valid to prophecy/clairvoyance etc., then does not that mean that everything is premapped, and we don't make conscious choices, and free-will is but an illusion? Does that mean that nobody is responsible for their actions, no matter how benevolent/malevolent in intent?
I get a little uncomfortable with all those kitsch new-agey interpetations of physics (Deepak Chopra et al), but the implications of the validity of prophecy just don't seem to tally with anything we currently know about the nature of time/relativity and the (popularly portrayed) 'link' between consciousness, observation, intent and decisions and quantum mechanics. If time progresses in a linear fashion, as is perceived by the brain, then the ability to go forward in time (centuries? millennia?) to just one scenario in an infinite number of possibilities of bifurcations resulting from all those human decisions seems to cast doubt on that perceived linear nature of time. Perhaps this is all a grand illusion? Perhaps it's all a hoax? How are we to know amyway? The more we discover about the nature of things, the horizon seems to expand exponentially out in front of us, as if for each discovery, there's a hundred new mysteries.
Some native American groups such as the Hopi have 'flexible' prophecies, in that trends are seen and extrapolated into the future, and change is acknowledged and recommended concerning activities and behavior of a destructive nature.
All faiths have their own prophecies, just like all faiths have their take on 'universal truth' (argh), and each faith righteously has a "my gang is better than your gang" take. I've watched evangelical Christian versions of prophecy, and they seem to be very rigid and have a manipulative stance: like....it's all going to end at some point so why should we give a damn? There's nothing we can do about it anyway, so as long as you give yourself to Jesus and believe in him, then you will be 'saved', and if you don't you are going to 'eternal hell and damnation'. There is almost a heirarchical and military feel to the way religion and prophecy is dispensed, in that folk are demanded to have faith, always accept and never question. Prophecy is a powerful tool in the hands of a charismatic speaker, specially when addressing the uneducated and gullible.
[quote]And as for the timeline. The Rains lasted 40 days and 40 nights. The flood itself lasted 150 days when the ark rested on the top of mount Ararat. The ark was how big? Very big. A lot of that boat is going to be under water. SO it stands to reason that the top of that mountain could still be covered with water for quite a while after the boat comes to rest on it, thus not visible over the water yet.<hr></blockquote>
This one always gets me....Ararat is a huge volcano 18000 high...thats over 3 miles above current sealevel!!. Since water finds its own level, this flood, after 150 days would therefore have ended up covering the entire Earth to a depth of at least 3 miles (!?!?!?). This is more water than currently exists in all the oceans...all falling as rain in 40 days and nights?!! Where is the geological evidence that the Earth (in very recent geological times) suddenly became more than 90% covered in a cataclysmic flood 3 miles deep..and then mysteriously disappear? Some of these literal interpretations of scripture tend to stretch the limits of credulity to well beyond the absurd.
Nobody has found the ark (yet), despite Marco Polo and others for centuries saying that its up there in the snows of Ararat. Ararat is here on Earth (not on Mars) and if the ark was truly there...it would most probably have been found by now, despite the Turkish Government's recent uncooperative stance and the local conflicts. However, CIA spy satellites did take pictures of some strange-looking artifacts near the summit of Ararat inthe 70s and were instantly classified as "Top Secret" by US intelligence. Sheesh!
I was wondering when you would join the discussion. Good post. Good questions. I don't have the evidence you seek as I am not a geologist nor do I study geology. You are right about the depth i believe, so long as the mountain we now call Ararat is the same mountain called that then.
Some things we will have to wait till we die to find out. If when we die there is nothing, it will cease mattering anyhow. If when we die there is an afterlife then we will know (that is if we care about that anymore anyhow .)
Anyhow, your questions and such seemed very reasoned in my skimming of your long post. I will revisit it if there is any questions you brought up that you wanted me to address when I read it more thoroughly later.
Strange there is a huge contradiction between the god related by the old testimony : a god very rigid : follow me in the way of right or you are doomed (excuse me for this simplistic resume) and the god of Love describe by Jesus Christ.
Jesus has sacrified his life for the sake of Humankind even if this humankind was not very gratefull, and the god described by the old testimony is ready to destroy and rebuilt if the things does not go in the right way. It's seems to me it's 180 % opposite.
Strange there is a huge contradiction between the god related by the old testimony : a god very rigid : follow me in the way of right or you are doomed (excuse me for this simplistic resume) and the god of Love describe by Jesus Christ.
Jesus has sacrified his life for the sake of Humankind even if this humankind was not very gratefull, and the god described by the old testimony is ready to destroy and rebuilt if the things does not go in the right way. It's seems to me it's 180 % opposite.</strong><hr></blockquote>
The difference is Jesus. Before Jesus there was no payment for sin except death. The only way to atone for your sin was to sacrifice an animal on an alter to God, its blood was shed to atone for your sins. But this only covered past sins, not future sins. And not everyone practiced this so their sins just began to pile up and get worse. After quite a while God would get fed up like with Sodom and Gomorrah, and the Flood, and just wipe the slate clean. Unfortunately this would happen not by animals dying to atone for their sins, but by the people reaping the judgement of death.
When God sent his son Jesus to die on the cross for the sins of the world he, a perfect man, took the judgement for all the sins of the world on himself and took away the need for any more to die for sins sake. He paid that price for us because we could not pay it.
So, to sum up, God used to seem much more harsh because sin would get between Him and His people. He tried to give them a way to atone for it through sacrificing animals, but that did not fix the problem, it only put it off for a bit. He eventually decided that the only way for the problem to be resolved was if a perfect man were to choose (get that, the man had to make the choice by himself) to die for everyone elses sins. And now we no longer live under Gods judgement because of that. Since we no longer live under that judgement, it would make God seem quite a bit brighter and happier, wouldn't you say?
Bear in mind this is a very brief overview of atonement and I may have missed some points here or there, but I thing it is valid overall. Anyone care to fix any misstatments or fill in any blanks?
Comments
<strong>I shed religious piousness a long time ago...
I am a humanist, thats it...</strong><hr></blockquote>
Ok
[quote]<strong>I dont believe the world will end (If it ever does) by any other means than the direct stupidity of man...</strong><hr></blockquote>
Ok, so war, or a biological accident or some doofus mkaing a mistake with anti-matter or such then? So there is really no way to provide a timeline for this argument, could happen tomorrow, could never happen. Ok.
[quote]<strong>mini-rant...
this is what switched me to a humanist...
---
I believe god exists...
I think god exist...
The same thing right? both are basically uncertainty...</strong><hr></blockquote>
I believe the world is round. I have never been in space to see it for myself but that is what I am taught in school, all pictures on TV show it as such, and my globe on my desk is round. However I have no direct knowledge that this is the case, I take it on faith that I am not being lied to by NASA and other organizations and that it is a fact because of this.
I also have faith that when i sit down in a chair it will hold me up. Sometimes that faith is unfounded and the chair collapses under my weight, but for the most part my faith is well placed.
That is the same type of faith that I have in God. Only I trust God much more implicitly.
[quote]<strong>I belief, faith, I think...
All these religous "believers" seem to "know" everything... And get really
Many religious believers are this way. Not all. And yes there is far too much bickering in the church. This division is one main point that keeps people such as yourself from seeing the church as anything but religious factions that do not practice what they preach. This is not all churches, but it is some of the more visible ones, and it is pervasive enough that it can be found almost everywhere.
[quote]<strong>Even thou their "fiath" is based solely in uncertainty/"I belief" mentality...
Until I hear any evidence on god... the whole thing is too be held questionable...
This does not mean I am a cold hearted bast@rd... I am a very nice guy, I just believe that theories should remain theories... and be regarded as such...</strong><hr></blockquote>
All faith is there though. The evidence for God is all around you. But if you choose to not see it in that light I cannot change your mind. He is not going to appear to you tomorrow and shake your hand. (He might, but since an impure human cannot live in his presence it would be a short lived, in human form, pleasure.
Nobody says you are a cold hearted b@st@rd. Least of all me.
[quote]<strong>and a quote:
"Even of what little bit you think you do know, You dont know the half of it..." - The Arrival
Just being a human means you can never know everything... surety is an illusion...
"question everything, rule nothing out..." - Unknown</strong><hr></blockquote>
Those quotes can go both ways. I see them as pushing people to let go of their conceptions of what they think they no and to embrace the possibility (reality) that God is real and he loves them. What do you see in these quotes?
[quote]<strong>---
[Edited: Removed this portion... before it might have gotten me into trouble...]
---</strong><hr></blockquote>
Ok. I would be interested to know what was so horrible, but I can live without seeing it.
[quote]<strong>The day I became a humanist...
I went to church once when I was 20 before I had to leave for a long time... And I am a very respectfull person and give people the "benifit of the doubt"... But I could hardly keep from cracking up "out loud"... I couldnt belive people actually let this garbage thru their "reason" filters...</strong><hr></blockquote>
What garbage? What was said? If it made such a huge impression on you so as to push you away from all religion you must remember some of it. Oh, and what church was it? Just curious...
[quote]<strong>I large group of people sang some "whacked out" almost un-intelligible 2000BC song... not that well, I might add... SO many thee's and thou's its hard to understand a word that was uttered...</strong><hr></blockquote>
2000 BC? Wow, a Chrsitian song from before Christ himself. Now that is prophetic!!!
[quote]<strong>ANd then this idiot preacher started droning on-and-on about the same thing for an hour...(I am talking proffesional circular thought here people) then I guess it was "break time" and everyone got up and went over to the snack counter... after this everybody was paired up into "prayer circles"... </strong><hr></blockquote>
Since it was the same thing for an hour, what was he droning on and on about? This story goes nowhere without a little bit of facts.
This time is called fellowship. It is a time for you to get to know your fellow church member and to help them in their struggles. It is a basic tenet of the church for us to pray for one another and build one another up in Christ. The food helps you to relax and enjoy the toime and not think aobut how hungry you are and how you want to go home and eat. I see nothing here too outlandish.
[quote]<strong>This was heart breaking... And at the same time, I almost had a heart attack luaghing inside...
My stupidity alarm was going off "left and right"...
these guys were pouring their hearts out in front on me... this was somewhat scary and unbelievably korny... it was like a football huddle... then it was just over and the open the door to let the people(sheep) out...<hr></blockquote></strong>
Heart breaking? Like when you pour out your heart to someone and he is having a heart attack laughing about it inside while his "stupidity alarm" is going off?
BTW, how do you know it just ended there? Did you make any attempt to meet with any of these people after the time of fellowship was over? I go to barbeques with my church members at their homes sometimes. We go out to movies, river rafting, etc. When something happens that causes me real distress I can talk to my pastors about it, or any church memebers and they can comfort me and sometimes even give real help (in your eyes), beyond the prayer that is always present.
[quote]<strong>And that was the day I became a humanist...
If what I saw there was indicative of the majority of what passes for the norm... we are soo screwed... as a species...
end mini-rant
I am sorry if I have led off track here i just needed to get some stuff of my chest...</strong><hr></blockquote>
This whole post was somewhat off topic but I wanted to answer you on some things. Most of my answers were genuine curiosity. Others were merely observations. None were meant as an attack on you.
<strong>I'm a little concerned about you Noah - you seem obsessed with this topic. Maybe your parents should have named you John rather than Noah? But come to think of it, Noah was kinda apocalyptic too.
When will the world end? Really, I have no idea. I don't believe people can predict much of anything about the future. It's clear to me that financial analysts can't predict interest rates or stock performance. It's clear that psychologists can't predict behavior. Etc.
It's tough to live with uncertainty, but you get used to it after a while.
Not obsessed, intrigued. Besides, it makes for interesting conversations, and sometimes you can even find a good story or two in there that are worth thinking about and repeating later. If nothing else it gets me thinking...I am also not able to predict the future with times and dates, but I believe that there is a roadmap that has been laid out that gives a good idea of how everything will go down when it does.
Now thats an open statement....
The evidence of Buhhda, Alla, gnomes and the tooth fairy is all around you... But if you choose to not see it in that light I cannot change your mind. they are not going to appear to you tomorrow and shake your hand. (they might, but since an impure human cannot live in his presence it would be a short lived, in human form, pleasure.
If your willing to suspend any logical answers and only require faith as your guide... then when I see "all" those presents under the tree at christmas...
"I have seen the evidence that santa clause exist..."
but if you look into it a little further... ... ...
---
If you want details... I cant give them too you... I dont remember what the preacher was talking about, the minute he began to overlap I began to look around the room only paying him random moments of attention to keep track...
[quote] Ok, so war, or a biological accident or some doofus making a mistake with anti-matter or such then? So there is really no way to provide a timeline for this argument, could happen tomorrow, could never happen. Ok. <hr></blockquote>
WTH... kind of logic is that?... I am sure that the people who went to work in the trade towers never thought anything like that could happen either...
Heck, nobody did...
Well, a few people did but no one listened...
[quote] Heart breaking? Like when you pour out your heart to someone and he is having a heart attack laughing about it inside while his "stupidity alarm" is going off?
Yes it was really sad the thought proccesses and guilt trips that this religion perpetuates... the "fuzzy logic" that was being mutually accepted and reinforced by these believers was incredibly amuzing and yet very saddening...
I suggest you read this... <a href="http://www.americanhumanist.org/humanism/thebible.html"; target="_blank">thebible.html</a>
------------------------------------
© FERRO 2001-2002
[ 04-22-2002: Message edited by: FERRO ]</p>
<strong>Now thats an open statement....
The evidence of Buhhda, Alla, gnomes and the tooth fairy is all around you... But if you choose to not see it in that light I cannot change your mind. they are not going to appear to you tomorrow and shake your hand. (they might, but since an impure human cannot live in his presence it would be a short lived, in human form, pleasure. ) <-- thats a bit convenient...</strong><hr></blockquote>
Where is the evidence of the tooth fairy? Easter bunny? Gnomes? Buddha? I know where my thoughts come from.
Psalm 19
1 Psalm 19 For the director of music. A psalm of David.
1 The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands.
2 Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they display knowledge.
However I don't want this to become an argument thread about whether my beliefs or yours are right so I am going to answer your questions and try not to perpetuate it too far off topic.
It has been documented in ancient Israeli texts that the high priests that went into the temple of God would go in with a rope tied around their ankles. That way if they had not properly purified themselves before God and died in their encounter with Him they could be pulled out by the rope. Does not sound convenient to me.
[quote]<strong>If your willing to suspend any logical answers and only require faith as your guide... then when I see "all" those presents under the tree at christmas...
"I have seen the evidence that santa clause exist..."
but if you look into it a little further... ... ...</strong><hr></blockquote>
There is a big diffrence. First of all, Santa Clause did exist in one form, a long time ago as well. But there is no evidence that he could do any of what is attributed to him now. In fact, the santa we know now did not really exist until "Twas the Night Before Christams" was written. Nobody is trying to perpetuate the myth of Santa except as something for little kids to look foreward to. I am not teaching my kids that Santa is real. Sime things have no real useful purpose. Not that Santa is bad, i just don't see the use. I never believed in him, I don't feel like I missed anything.
[quote]<strong>If you want details... I cant give them too you... I dont remember what the preacher was talking about, the minute he began to overlap I began to look around the room only paying him random moments of attention to keep track...</strong><hr></blockquote>
That is too bad. Oh well.
[quote]<strong>WTH... kind of logic is that?... I am sure that the people who went to work in the trade towers never thought anything like that could happen either...<hr></blockquote></strong>
Whoa! :eek: Calm down there big guy! I was merely summing up yout point that was relevant to the topic. You do not believe the world is going to end, but if it does it will be by mens stupidity. Thus my quote that you reacted so vehemently to. Think sum up, not argument. Or did I miss your point?
[quote]<strong>Yes it was really sad the thought proccesses and guilt trips that this religion perpetuates... the "fuzzy logic" that was being mutually accepted and reinforced by these believers was incredibly amuzing and yet very saddening...
I suggest you read this... <a href="http://www.americanhumanist.org/humanism/thebible.html"; target="_blank">thebible.html</a></strong><hr></blockquote>
Examples? What guilt trips? Fuzzy logic? Does it tickle?
If I get time. I have a lot of other reading that is more important right now that is work related....
I will take one point. The one of the flood.
He states:
[quote]<strong>Contradictions also abound in the biblical account of a worldwide flood. Genesis 6:19-22 says that God ordered Noah to bring "of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort . . . into the ark." Genesis 7:2-3 states, however, that the Lord ordered Noah take into the ark the clean beasts and the birds by sevens and the unclean beasts by twos.
Genesis 7:17 relates that the flood lasted forty days, whereas Genesis 8:3 tells us it lasted one hundred and fifty days. Genesis 8:4 reports that, as the waters of the flood receded, Noah?s ark rested upon the mountains of Ararat in the seventh month. But the very next verse asserts that the mountaintops could not even be seen until the tenth month. Genesis 8:13 states that the earth was dry on the first day of the first month; contrariwise, Genesis 8:14 reports that the earth was not dry until the twenty-seventh day of the second month.</strong><hr></blockquote>
First of all, the animal were brought in 2X2. Male and Female. The 7 animals, clean and unclean, were for food for Noah and his wife and his sons and their wives. This was going to be a long trip, were they not supposed to bring lunch?
And as for the timeline. The Rains lasted 40 days and 40 nights. The flood itself lasted 150 days when the ark rested on the top of mount Ararat. The ark was how big? Very big. A lot of that boat is going to be under water. SO it stands to reason that the top of that mountain could still be covered with water for quite a while after the boat comes to rest on it, thus not visible over the water yet.
As far as the dryness is concerned. I will let you read the verse yourself.
13 By the first day of the first month of Noah's six hundred and first year, the water had dried up from the earth. Noah then removed the covering from the ark and saw that the surface of the ground was dry.
14 By the twenty-seventh day of the second month the earth was completely dry.
The water was dried up by the first month. Still a bit muddy though. By the end of the second month the ground had firmed up and completely dried.
This article goes on to nitpick like this throughout. I only picked the Ark one for brevity, I will not take time to put every one of his facts straight as I have a life outside of this discussion that I could not live if I were to do that. The article is fishy at best. They have an axe they are grinding, but they are not doing it well.
[quote]<strong>The Old Testament is further contradictory as to whether the Lord commanded the Israelites to sacrifice animals to him. According to Jeremiah 7:22, God denied that he ever gave the Israelites commandments about animal sacrifices. In contrast, Exodus 29:38-42 and many other verses in the Pentateuch clearly depict God as requiring the Israelites to offer animal sacrifices.<hr></blockquote></strong>
And now for a bit of reality and reading for comprehension:
22 For when I brought your forefathers out of Egypt and spoke to them, I did not just give them commands about burnt offerings and sacrifices,
23 but I gave them this command: Obey me, and I will be your God and you will be my people. Walk in all the ways I command you, that it may go well with you.
In case you missed it I bolded the operative word, just. It does not say I did not command you to.... It says, I did not JUST command you to...
Totally different meaning which the author could not be bothered with I guess.
Did you even research any of these claims, or do you just accept them as fact because the guy wrote a page about it and it sounds good to you? <img src="confused.gif" border="0">
In my attempt to refute you I linked a page for reference I had only found and browsed thru recently...
And you quickly shot me down...
I waited a day to respond...
I will make sure I read what I use as a defense of my oppinions in the future.... <img src="graemlins/smokin.gif" border="0" alt="[Chilling]" />
Always good to have people keep you in check...
doesnt mean I agree with you...
------------------------------------
© FERRO 2001-2002
[ 04-27-2002: Message edited by: FERRO ]</p>
<strong>I concede...
In my attempt to refute you I linked a page for reference I had only found and browsed thru recently...
And you quickly shot me down...
I waited a day to respond...
I will make sure I read what I use as a defense of my oppinions in the future.... <img src="graemlins/smokin.gif" border="0" alt="[Chilling]" />
Always good to have people keep you in check...
doesnt mean I agree with you...
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I don't expect you to just lay down your beliefs and roll over because I say so!
In the last days there will be a few trends that will not be very obvious as they build up slowly over time. This is why I believe that everyone believes they are in the last days for years and years. These trends have, however, been getting steadily worse and I feel that eventually they will culminate in the beginning of the end.
Some of the signs:
- Increase of false prophets and religious compromise within the church. Jesus in Matthew 24 is speaking on the end times. This will be also valid for many of the following points. He speaks of many coming in his name claiming to be the Christ and decieving many. This is reapeated in many other NT books.
- Increase of crime and disregard of the law God laid out. People will be oblivious to others and not care so long as their lives are fulfilled and happy. They will not care about the ten commandments or self-purity as they will have found a more enlightened form of morality that allows them greater freedom than that which is laid out for them from their forefathers.
- You will see a marked increase in war, famine, and earthquakes. Jesus says, that "You will hear of wars and rumors of wars", and also, "Nation will rise against Nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of birth pains."
- There will be a decrease in love and family affection.
- The persecution of believers in Jesus as saviour will increase. This is being seen in the Sudan and many other nations. Even in America being a Christian is compared with being part of the Taliban in much of the media.
These are some of the general points that can be found in the Bible. They are quite generic and no doubt many will say, "So, that happens all the time! Is that the best you can come up with?" I will answer, no. There is much more. These are just to set the stage for why the end must come (for those who believe in God and who He is).They may seem weak to you humanists, and athiests, and pagans, and free thinkers who don't want to be labled. That is fine. I am just putting it out so you have the evidence in front of you. Feel free to post your own thoughts and interpretations.
Verses that were read to come up with some of this:
Matthew 10:21-23; 24:1-24
Luke 17:22-29
and many more, those were just a few to get you started.
More to come as I get more time....
Don't worry about things you can't understand. Now, some of you will cry, "Atheist!" Sorry to disappoint you, but I'm not an atheist. I simply just don't give a damn whether or not a god exists. If your god is as benevolent as you claim, I don't think he'd be so insecure as to condemn me to enternal pits of fire if I, a mere mortal, don't care to believe in him.
<strong>It is impossible for us to comprehend certain things that mystify us about the universe. We don't know why we are here. We don't know how the universe was created. We don't know what happens after we die. These are all questions that cannot be answered. I choose not to make up stories or follow someone else's stories just to make myself feel a little better. I don't know what will happen after I die (other than being worm food) and it can be scary to think about it. However, I'm not going to simply make up a story that will comfort me.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I can see your point of view here. I do not fear what happens after I die, but it definitely does intrigue me.
[quote]<strong>Don't worry about things you can't understand. Now, some of you will cry, "Atheist!" Sorry to disappoint you, but I'm not an atheist. I simply just don't give a damn whether or not a god exists. If your god is as benevolent as you claim, I don't think he'd be so insecure as to condemn me to enternal pits of fire if I, a mere mortal, don't care to believe in him.</strong><hr></blockquote>
John 3:16-17
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[2] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
2 Peter 3:8-10
8But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. 10But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.
As you say, it is your choice. And in the end you are held accountable for your choices. It is not God's fault what choice you make, He gave us freedom of choice so that when we do choose Him it is out of true love, not as a programmed robot.
[ 04-24-2002: Message edited by: NoahJ ]</p>
Basically, that:
? there is a Supreme Being who will destroy the world
? this being will choose who is and isn't saved
? the rules for determining who is saved boil down to whether or not you believe in the being
? the evidence of the being is based on (IMO) vague hints and questionable historical events
It really seems like something out of science fiction to me, and in some ways, it seems like a cruel hoax.
Of course, just because it sounds ridiculous to me doesn't mean it's not true. But in my judgment, it's not true, and reading your thoughts about it makes me even more certain of that.
And to top it off, I really find it difficult to get into your mind and understand why someone would believe these things. It's different than political views, or tastes in music or movies - with those things I can completely understand why someone's experiences and personality lead to different opinions than mine.
But this - I just have a hard time appreciating where it comes from. It seems SO outlandish and patently ridiculous (sorry), that I just can't grasp why people believe in it.
And it's not from lack of exposure to people who believe it - I think around 95% of people believe in God, and my parents, and my entire extended family, and most of the people I interact with on a daily basis. But it doesn't help. I just don't get it.
It really does feel like some weird science fiction story where everyone acts like nothing is wrong, but they're all in on it together, like they're all aliens or vampires or something, and you're the only one who doesn't know.
I have noticed, though, that when this topic comes up, most people on internet boards seem to be atheists/agnostics. Hmmm...
Again, I don't mean to flame you, but you've been honest with your views, so there are mine.
<img src="confused.gif" border="0">
<strong>This is off-topic, Noah, but what the heck. You've always been very open and honest about your thoughts on these topics, and so I don't want to flame you about it. But reading your thoughts is disturbing to me in a way, and reminds me of why I choose not to be religious.<hr></blockquote></strong>
First of all, questioning my beliefs is not flaming me, I have no problems answering questions at all. If I don't know the answer I will research it and get back later.
[quote]<strong>Basically, that:
? there is a Supreme Being who will destroy the world
? this being will choose who is and isn't saved
? the rules for determining who is saved boil down to whether or not you believe in the being
? the evidence of the being is based on (IMO) vague hints and questionable historical events</strong><hr></blockquote>
Point 1: Yes, this is a fact. This will be done because the creation became tainted and the only way to fix that is to completely destroy it an build it up again. Either that or remove free will and accept that your followers are mind numbed robots that have no choice but to follow you and do not truly love you by choice.
Point 2: Wrong. We choose to accept salvation. It is God's will that all be saved. Some point to the verse that says that only those called by God will be saved, but my further research has brought me to the conclusion that all are called by God. Only those who answer that call are saved, all others who reject the free gift of salvation are not save. Not God's choice, theirs.
Point 3: Basically, yes. If you want more on this I will be happy to expand with further questioning if I can.
Point 4: Depend on what you call vauge hints and questionable hitsorical events. I will neither concede this point nor disagree as it is far too open-ended to aswer in its present form.
[quote]<strong>It really seems like something out of science fiction to me, and in some ways, it seems like a cruel hoax.
Of course, just because it sounds ridiculous to me doesn't mean it's not true. But in my judgment, it's not true, and reading your thoughts about it makes me even more certain of that.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I am sorry to hear that.
BTW, what parts made you sure that this stance is wrong and why? I am truly interested to see if I am presenting things the way I intend to or not. It is hard to judge how others will read and interpret what I have written sometimes.
[quote]<strong>And to top it off, I really find it difficult to get into your mind and understand why someone would believe these things. It's different than political views, or tastes in music or movies - with those things I can completely understand why someone's experiences and personality lead to different opinions than mine.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I can see how that would be the case. Religion is one of the biggest polarizing points in the world. That, I feel, is because religion is not just a belief, it is typically a way of life and sometimes it does not make sense to those that do not agree with it or choose not to believe in it.
[quote]<strong>But this - I just have a hard time appreciating where it comes from. It seems SO outlandish and patently ridiculous (sorry), that I just can't grasp why people believe in it.
And it's not from lack of exposure to people who believe it - I think around 95% of people believe in God, and my parents, and my entire extended family, and most of the people I interact with on a daily basis. But it doesn't help. I just don't get it. </strong><hr></blockquote>
Heck, believing in God is easy. How hard can it be for most people to believe that there is something or someone out there that is responsible for many of the unexplained mysteries that confront us day after day? When you take it one step further and define your beliefs is where people start to diverge the most. The more narrowly you define it, the more divergence.
[quote]<strong>It really does feel like some weird science fiction story where everyone acts like nothing is wrong, but they're all in on it together, like they're all aliens or vampires or something, and you're the only one who doesn't know.</strong><hr></blockquote>
LOL! Like The Twilight Zone...
[quote]<strong>I have noticed, though, that when this topic comes up, most people on internet boards seem to be atheists/agnostics. Hmmm...
Again, I don't mean to flame you, but you've been honest with your views, so there are mine.
Thnank you for your sincerity. I hope I have answered your questions in such a way that you can live with. If not, feel free to ask more. If I am not clear to you, or you have a problem with any points I have made let me know. I am not trying to change your mind, just trying to put forth my viewpoint as clearly as possible so when you decide whether or not I am full of it that I am sure I put it forth clearly enough. As I have said before, I will answer what I can.
For those not aware, The Rapture is when the church is removed from the earth. You can argue who the Church is, and I would be interested to see some views on that, but I will suffice it to say, those that have accepted Jesus as their personal Lord and Saviour are supposed to be Raptured sometime near the end of the world.
There are three main views on when The Rapture is to happen. Pre-Tribulation, Mid-Tribulation, and Post-Tribulation.
I will get into the Tribulation in another post, but suffice it to say that this will be the hardest time in the history of man. The only paralell I can draw is the plagues on Egypt during Exodus, only global and worse.
Those who are Pre-Tribulation believe that God will pull out the Church before the Tribulation to keep them from any of the bad things that are to happen, sort of as a reward for being on the right side and sort of in protection like a father protects his children.
Those who are Mid-Tribulation believe that the Church will be pulled out in the middle of the Tribulation. The reasoning behind this is that the first part of the Tribulation will be mostly natural disasters and such, and when we get to the second and worst part of the Tribulation that will be when God pours out His wrath on a sinful world that refuses to accept Him. This for them makes sense that He would not make His Church live through this time as they would not be the objects of His wrath. This one is most reasonable to me, but I am unsure.
The last is Post-Tribulation. This is the least popular of the three. God will make everyone go through all of the Tribulation, and in the end those who stay loyal to him will be raptured. Harsh, but no one knows which is really true as the bible does not give a clear timeline on this that I can be absolutely sure I have interpreted right.
I heard of one other type that I fall squarely into. This type is called a Pan-Tribulation. This one falls under, it will all pan out in the end.
re. prophecy: this is definitely a large part of 'evangelical Christianity'. Do we live in a 'free-will zone'? Every moment of every instance in time there are 6 billion conscious humans making decisions and acting upon them, and each one of these affects the timeline. The number of interactions and decisions and choices is mindbogglingly immense, and the world is subject to change at each infinitessimally tiny slice of time. Each human decision, no matter how seemingly insignificant affects the course of history; the one world in which we exist at any moment in the present is just one of an almost infinity of parallel possibilities, or worlds that are outside of our consciousness. If there really is something concrete and valid to prophecy/clairvoyance etc., then does not that mean that everything is premapped, and we don't make conscious choices, and free-will is but an illusion? Does that mean that nobody is responsible for their actions, no matter how benevolent/malevolent in intent?
I get a little uncomfortable with all those kitsch new-agey interpetations of physics (Deepak Chopra et al), but the implications of the validity of prophecy just don't seem to tally with anything we currently know about the nature of time/relativity and the (popularly portrayed) 'link' between consciousness, observation, intent and decisions and quantum mechanics. If time progresses in a linear fashion, as is perceived by the brain, then the ability to go forward in time (centuries? millennia?) to just one scenario in an infinite number of possibilities of bifurcations resulting from all those human decisions seems to cast doubt on that perceived linear nature of time. Perhaps this is all a grand illusion? Perhaps it's all a hoax? How are we to know amyway? The more we discover about the nature of things, the horizon seems to expand exponentially out in front of us, as if for each discovery, there's a hundred new mysteries.
Some native American groups such as the Hopi have 'flexible' prophecies, in that trends are seen and extrapolated into the future, and change is acknowledged and recommended concerning activities and behavior of a destructive nature.
All faiths have their own prophecies, just like all faiths have their take on 'universal truth' (argh), and each faith righteously has a "my gang is better than your gang" take. I've watched evangelical Christian versions of prophecy, and they seem to be very rigid and have a manipulative stance: like....it's all going to end at some point so why should we give a damn? There's nothing we can do about it anyway, so as long as you give yourself to Jesus and believe in him, then you will be 'saved', and if you don't you are going to 'eternal hell and damnation'. There is almost a heirarchical and military feel to the way religion and prophecy is dispensed, in that folk are demanded to have faith, always accept and never question. Prophecy is a powerful tool in the hands of a charismatic speaker, specially when addressing the uneducated and gullible.
[quote]And as for the timeline. The Rains lasted 40 days and 40 nights. The flood itself lasted 150 days when the ark rested on the top of mount Ararat. The ark was how big? Very big. A lot of that boat is going to be under water. SO it stands to reason that the top of that mountain could still be covered with water for quite a while after the boat comes to rest on it, thus not visible over the water yet.<hr></blockquote>
This one always gets me....Ararat is a huge volcano 18000 high...thats over 3 miles above current sealevel!!. Since water finds its own level, this flood, after 150 days would therefore have ended up covering the entire Earth to a depth of at least 3 miles (!?!?!?). This is more water than currently exists in all the oceans...all falling as rain in 40 days and nights?!! Where is the geological evidence that the Earth (in very recent geological times) suddenly became more than 90% covered in a cataclysmic flood 3 miles deep..and then mysteriously disappear? Some of these literal interpretations of scripture tend to stretch the limits of credulity to well beyond the absurd.
Nobody has found the ark (yet), despite Marco Polo and others for centuries saying that its up there in the snows of Ararat. Ararat is here on Earth (not on Mars) and if the ark was truly there...it would most probably have been found by now, despite the Turkish Government's recent uncooperative stance and the local conflicts. However, CIA spy satellites did take pictures of some strange-looking artifacts near the summit of Ararat inthe 70s and were instantly classified as "Top Secret" by US intelligence. Sheesh!
I would have to lower my standards considerably,
in order to follow such an uncaring, evil god.
<strong>Noah, thanks for confirming why I will never be a christian.
I would have to lower my standards considerably,
in order to follow such an uncaring, evil god.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Uncaring? Evil? Explain please. <img src="confused.gif" border="0">
I was wondering when you would join the discussion. Good post. Good questions. I don't have the evidence you seek as I am not a geologist nor do I study geology. You are right about the depth i believe, so long as the mountain we now call Ararat is the same mountain called that then.
Some things we will have to wait till we die to find out. If when we die there is nothing, it will cease mattering anyhow. If when we die there is an afterlife then we will know (that is if we care about that anymore anyhow
Anyhow, your questions and such seemed very reasoned in my skimming of your long post. I will revisit it if there is any questions you brought up that you wanted me to address when I read it more thoroughly later.
<strong>
Uncaring? Evil? Explain please.
Strange there is a huge contradiction between the god related by the old testimony : a god very rigid : follow me in the way of right or you are doomed (excuse me for this simplistic resume) and the god of Love describe by Jesus Christ.
Jesus has sacrified his life for the sake of Humankind even if this humankind was not very gratefull, and the god described by the old testimony is ready to destroy and rebuilt if the things does not go in the right way. It's seems to me it's 180 % opposite.
<strong>
Strange there is a huge contradiction between the god related by the old testimony : a god very rigid : follow me in the way of right or you are doomed (excuse me for this simplistic resume) and the god of Love describe by Jesus Christ.
Jesus has sacrified his life for the sake of Humankind even if this humankind was not very gratefull, and the god described by the old testimony is ready to destroy and rebuilt if the things does not go in the right way. It's seems to me it's 180 % opposite.</strong><hr></blockquote>
The difference is Jesus. Before Jesus there was no payment for sin except death. The only way to atone for your sin was to sacrifice an animal on an alter to God, its blood was shed to atone for your sins. But this only covered past sins, not future sins. And not everyone practiced this so their sins just began to pile up and get worse. After quite a while God would get fed up like with Sodom and Gomorrah, and the Flood, and just wipe the slate clean. Unfortunately this would happen not by animals dying to atone for their sins, but by the people reaping the judgement of death.
When God sent his son Jesus to die on the cross for the sins of the world he, a perfect man, took the judgement for all the sins of the world on himself and took away the need for any more to die for sins sake. He paid that price for us because we could not pay it.
So, to sum up, God used to seem much more harsh because sin would get between Him and His people. He tried to give them a way to atone for it through sacrificing animals, but that did not fix the problem, it only put it off for a bit. He eventually decided that the only way for the problem to be resolved was if a perfect man were to choose (get that, the man had to make the choice by himself) to die for everyone elses sins. And now we no longer live under Gods judgement because of that. Since we no longer live under that judgement, it would make God seem quite a bit brighter and happier, wouldn't you say?
Bear in mind this is a very brief overview of atonement and I may have missed some points here or there, but I thing it is valid overall. Anyone care to fix any misstatments or fill in any blanks?