why are americans all so fat???? - Page 3

Eugene, what i'm saying is that there is no one out there who can't help but get fat. (there are probably .1% of the population with messed up thyriods, i'll dicount them)

what i'm talking about are people who look at a guy in college playing volleyball, soccer and lacrosse, and saying it's not fair that they can't eat like him, 'cause it's genetics.

it's a load of bull. as for the hostess cupcake example, that's perfect. if you want to feel like you've had some sustinence, maybe hostess cupcakes aren't the way to go. i don't think that anyone (excluding the aformentioned) can get fat on a 2,000 calorie a day diet.

a comparison for you.

1 cup of uncooked rice has 200 calories. cooked, that's a meal.
1 sprite (as you mentioned) has 140.

which is better for you? now, people will drink a 64oz. pop with their burger and fries, and they're instantly over 2,000 calories.

fact is, if that was all you ate in a day, you wouldn't starve. (if it were 2,000, not sure about that)

you only need 2,000 (unless you doing a lot of active stuff) in a day. if you cram 2,000+ into one meal, you're going to probably feel hungery later in the day, but you don't actually need to eat. you just want to eat.

if someone can come in here and explain how anyone could possibly gain weight by taking in less calories than they burn, i'll apologize and never bring up the subject again.

it is a non issue that there are individuals that can eat grotesque amounts of food and not gain weight. everyone has slight differences, i'll agree to that. that doesn't mean that some people are geneticaly predetermined to get fat. is it easier for them to put on weight, yes. is in unavoidable, no. they'll only get fat if they eat more than they need to. period

10 cups of rice a day would be more food (volume wise) than the average person can eat in a day, but is at 2,000 calories. just stay away from the mayo and bacon sandwhiches if volume of food intake is an issue.

-alcimedes

*bravo* alchimedes. I personally enjoy a large bowl of white steamed rice with hot salsa.
I also like chocolate.
I also enjoy working with weights. I hate running. I am very bulky.

Thus, I am fat.

If only rice didn't taste so bad.

Once you get used to eating small amounts of food it actually gets kinda fun.

I used to be really chubby when I was in 6th grade or so but now I'm 5' 8" 125 lbs.

[quote]Originally posted by MacAddict:
<strong>If only rice didn't taste so bad. </strong><hr></blockquote>

Since when does rice taste bad?

what i'm talking about are people who look at a guy in college playing volleyball, soccer and lacrosse, and saying it's not fair that they can't eat like him, 'cause it's genetics.

Actually those cases do exist.
2 examples:
I knew a kid a few years back who was not fat so much persay, but he was wide. He was chubby we'll say (he had the tell tale signs of being slightly overweight). He lived more or less on fresh vegitables and the odd thing he could snag elsewhere (Id say that his parents were negligent), and he probably rode 13km a day down dirt roads and up hills (he rode to town and back, which was each about 6-7km). His fathers side of the family (he didnt live with his dad)was fairly overweight, not bad, but he had a pot belly, and was generally less than tip top shape.

On the other hand, a friend of mine today.
This kid walks around a bit, but generally stays home a lot. He usually doesnt get up until 12pm at the earliest, and stays up late playing games. His diet is good, but he eats in very large quanitities, easily scarfing down a couple of dishes (and were talking BIG dishes) at our local chinese restaurant.
Hes a tooth pick. He seriously gains NO weight. I think he ways 100lb and hes close to 6ft tall.
His family? All exactly the same.

Now for the lardos (the people who get pit cheese in their folds of fat) are legitly overweight. That kind of fat deposit comes from a negligent lifestyle, and as such is simply their own fault.

It depends what you call fat. If you are a woman and you are one pound over the limit of 100 pounds and 6 feet tall in our society now you are fat.

In another time voluptuous women would not be considered fat but healthy. Why do we all have to be at the same weight and the same height. Isn't beauty inside instead of outside. Aren't beautiful smile, beautiful eyes more important than being a skeleton. People often mistake being healthy with being ultra skinny. Maybe you guys should take more to develop your intellect.

[quote]Originally posted by Jane:
<strong>It depends what you call fat. If you are a woman and you are one pound over the limit of 100 pounds and 6 feet tall in our society now you are fat.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Oh Please

[quote]Originally posted by Jane:
<strong>It depends what you call fat. If you are a woman and you are one pound over the limit of 100 pounds and 6 feet tall in our society now you are fat.

In another time voluptuous women would not be considered fat but healthy.</strong><hr></blockquote>The problem is that being overweight is unhealthy. It's associated with all kinds of health problems, like CVD, cancer, breathing-related disorders, and, like I said in an earlier post in this thread, adult-onset diabetes is basically an epidemic in the US right now, due almost entirely to people being so fat.

Rather than trying to make people feel better about being overweight, I think some stigma is a good thing. I guess I'm a jerk.

[quote] It depends what you call fat. If you are a woman and you are one pound over the limit of 100 pounds and 6 feet tall in our society now you are fat.<hr></blockquote>

Certainly in the eyes of some other women...

There's fat and there's fat. From a health perspective, most women can hover around 15%-25% body fat and be perfectly fine, even if they don't look like Kate Moss. Some can carry more. Out where I am (Iowa) women with a bit extra are quite common, and judging by the scene here, they're not pariahs for sporting a few curves. But then, this is a colder climate with a lot of northern European blood, so people are just bigger as a rule.

For myself, I'm 6'2" and 280 pounds, and that doesn't say much either (neither does my handle, before you ask ). I just about fit into an athletic cut jacket, and I'm about 30 pounds overweight according to the last trainer I talked to. I'm down from almost 300, and it feels great.

There's a lot to be said for being healthy. It has nothing to do with the aesthetic tyranny of Cosmopolitan. It has to do with feeling comfortable in your own skin.

[quote]Originally posted by MacAddict:
<strong>If only rice didn't taste so bad.

Once you get used to eating small amounts of food it actually gets kinda fun.

I used to be really chubby when I was in 6th grade or so but now I'm 5' 8" 125 lbs.

</strong><hr></blockquote>

I think rice tastes ok.

You sound like how I was. In 5th grade I was kinda chubby but now I'm 5'8" and 130lbs.

whats it with all the Americans always feeling victimized when they see a title like this one? Jesus, we always think everyone is out to get us or something!!!!

Americans can be thanked for the wonderful creation of fast food and the ever evading promise of an easier life... which is supposed to mean more time free, etc... but then translates into us just being lazier.

In Italy, just 10 years ago it was pretty odd to give your kids 'twinkies' or other wrappered foods as snacks. There always used to be some bread, ham, cheese, etc... but not just reprocessed meat mind you... I mean smoked ham and fresh cheese... not that Real (which is actually fake) cheese. Anyway, thanks to the wonderful import of american-style living, I see thousands of 10-15year old obese kids all over the place.
When I was in Rome in the summers as a kid, we would always be outside and play.... now every kid is hooked in front of a play station or pc playing games... and I mean all of them.

In 10 more years I really fear for the average Italian.

So, is this anti-american? No, not really. But I can say this much, it IS American corporations and "way of life" that is continously FORCED and PUSHED onto EVERY DAMN CULTURE OF THE WORLD in one way or another and its really really incredibly disturbing. Just because the USA IS the most powerful nation in the world DOES NOT mean we have to continously change everyone's thinking all the damn time!

It's all the fast food McDonalds etc. and television. But check this: I love my Burger King and Taco Bell, eat junk food all the time, and I look like a bean pole!!!

It is becoming more and more clear to me, Zo, that you are very close to being an imbecile.

And drop this "we" shit, you are not an American so do not speak as one or attempt to speak for Americans. You are an idiot, plain and simple.

Quite funny how you turn such a blind eye to your own precious continent's culpability for its own state. Blame your own watered-down socialist states for their own flaws.

lol, if someone can explain to me how Hostess and McDonalds are forcing Italians into eating their food i'll take that Corporate America is Evil crap with a touch of respect.

fact is, everyone wants to eat it 'cause it tastes great, and it's really friggin' easy. Americans just lead the way. then everyone else goes "hey, that's a good idea" (except for cell phones and pagers, where we're years behind)

and a women without curves looks like a boy, so what's the point?

[quote]

It depends what you call fat. If you are a woman and you are one pound over the limit of 100 pounds and 6 feet tall in our society now you are fat.

In another time voluptuous women would not be considered fat but healthy. Why do we all have to be at the same weight and the same height. Isn't beauty inside instead of outside. Aren't beautiful smile, beautiful eyes more important than being a skeleton. People often mistake being healthy with being ultra skinny. Maybe you guys should take more to develop your intellect.

<hr></blockquote>

I prefer a healthy woman.5' 4" and 140 lbs. is perfect for me.I like women who are soft and round,they are the most beautiful.Unfortunately there is a lot of prejudice against women of this type,generally they have a negative self-image,and it's very difficult for me to express the fact that I adore them-they think I'm crazy because they themselves want to be thin-a tragic situation.

[quote]Originally posted by Jane:
<strong>It depends what you call fat. If you are a woman and you are one pound over the limit of 100 pounds and 6 feet tall in our society now you are fat.

In another time voluptuous women would not be considered fat but healthy. Why do we all have to be at the same weight and the same height. Isn't beauty inside instead of outside. Aren't beautiful smile, beautiful eyes more important than being a skeleton. People often mistake being healthy with being ultra skinny. Maybe you guys should take more to develop your intellect.</strong><hr></blockquote>


Jane:

We can't do it, at least, not while we're young guys. Y'see, where you women have one brain (capable of processing FOUR separate tracks of thought-wet ware multiprocessing) we are stuck with THREE brains. The brain between our ears is for huntin', gatherin', an' lookin' at women. Our programming is such that we're looking for breeding stock (that's a fact according to TV . ) That's all that we do.

Now if you consult Gray's Anatomy, and turn to the section on testicles and compare them to the brain you will make the astonishing discovery that the brain has a more than passing resemblance to the testicle! (This is why you read AppleInsider; to learn stuff).

College bio prof tried to tell us that testicles had something to do with sperm(?) or somesuch tomfoolery. Ha! I instantly saw the resemblance and realized that the testicles are actually assistant brains. In the event that the cranial brain stops thinking about mating issues, the testicles issue interrupt vectors to the crainial brain telling it to keep looking for a mate.

This situation only changes when the male has a ribbon of precious metal affixed to his left hand. From that point on, the testicles... just hang there, doing what, I do not know.

Doubt that this helps, but I hope it put a smile on your face.

Aries 1B

[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>It is becoming more and more clear to me, Zo, that you are very close to being an imbecile.

And drop this "we" shit, you are not an American so do not speak as one or attempt to speak for Americans. You are an idiot, plain and simple.

Quite funny how you turn such a blind eye to your own precious continent's culpability for its own state. Blame your own watered-down socialist states for their own flaws.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I am American. And if need be I can prove it... but I don't think you give a damn any way. I've just been able to step away from the USA for a while be able to see American life from different perspectives instead of the closed and padded view most Americans like to think of themselves as being in.

I wasn't blaming the USA for the fact that people are attracted to junk food and what not. Its just that the USA basically created junk food and has been pushing it like crazy over here these last few decades. I don't blame the USA that Europeans, or others, are eating the junk food. From a place where quality comes before quantity, its rapidly becoming like the USA where so much is just fluff and appearences... but very little substance. You cannot deny this. Case in point, when you have the money and want to buy QUALITY do you buy American luxury goods or European? Do you buy a Rolex, Ferrari, Cartier, etc or a Belair watch, Cadillac, etc? Im not dissing the quality of the latter but, do you get my point? Heck there was even 3 issue special on Newsweek sometime this summer with about 20pages each issue on European quality, etc and how Americans look to Europe for good stuff.

What am I getting to? I'm worried that the cultural implications of fast food (quantity and no substance over quality) will become a common way of thinking for my and future generations of Europeans will cut corners, become superficial, and look at speed speed speed and make sure its just cheaper and to hell with quality... lets just sell more! Jaguar started going that way. Only recently have they gotten their act together... but otherwise, they were making some of the worst cars in the world. The common saying was that if you get a Jag, you better be rich enough to buy two of them... one will always be in the garage getting repaired! (just to clarify for the rabid USA #1 patriots, I am NOT blaming this on the USA... yeeesh).

You can call Europeans names all you want... but, just like with Americans, you can't generalize. And whats wrong with socialism? You act like its a damn disease or something! Sure, too much socialism sucks, but heck, its done great things here. Too much of anything is bad. One of the lesser goods it has done, admittedly, is create incredibly bloated bureaucracies... but otherwise, it ain't that bad here. Trust me, I came to Europe thinking the same things as Groverat and others.. that this place was just a commie cove and USA haters. It ain't folks, get over it. After 10+ years here, you come to appreciate the goods and the bads of my beloved USA as well as the good and the bads of Europe.

I always love getting sh!t on this forum because I give something else to think about or from a different perspective... albeit sometimes a bit too dofferent. But why do some of you take what I say so damn litterally? Be a bit more open minded!

Alcimedes, I can't say that McDonalds is soley responsible for Italians getting fatter, but as I said before, its these types of places that are changing the very fabric of any culture, like the italian one. Not that I think it should be banned or that I don't go there myself... but some kids don't have meals at home anymore where for centuries the people of a certain culture is used to a certian DIET. Italian food has always been, central and southern italy, very healthy... bread, pasta, vegetables, olive oil, etc. Now all of a sudden you have kids, and adults, changing their diets radically to grease oils, vegetable fried oils, sugars, cholesterol, etc etc. This is a major change! And you can see it! Is this America's fault? Yes and no. They are not forcing anyone to eat it, but then again, it wasn't available until they came. McDonald's has been in Italy only for about 15years and I still remember when it first opened in Rome. No one used to go because Italians that went were like "what is this crap? its terrible". Then younger generations started going and getting used to the artificial tastes, and after 15 years its everywhere... like a damn cancer. Because kids command the costs of a house-hold, parents have to go to McDonald's as well and they have gotten used to it. Now most Italians accept mediocre (not to say disgusting) cuisine. We have instant foods, microwave dinners (another bane of society) and other mediocre sh!t. You get used to mediocre, and it carries on to how you live life and your attitude twords life and work and society.

Hah, just thought of a good example. I live in the center of Rome where you always have droves of American tourists, and they go to the restaurants that are set-up for them by tourist agencies. An Italian would die rather than eat that food they are given... but the American tourists just laugh and are happy that they are being fed what they think is super Italian cuisine. And its not like its bad... its just mediocre... and the tourists LOVE it! I have brought many many many of my American friends out to eat and GOOD restaurants... and you know what... they usually dont like it much because its too good. Huh? What I mean is that the food has more 'personality' to it... it TASTES of something... and it seems that my American friends want an average taste, not too much, not to little. Mediocre taste. So, I bring them to a tourist trap restaurant and they are happy. Go figure.

Do I exagerrate? Not a bit. If you could have seen or witnessed this change as I have, you would know that what I am saying is not BS. Do I want culture to stop and stay at a stand still? No, but maybe we should ALL be a bit more responsible as to making some quick money and changing the diets and culture of entire societies and countries.

Dang... that was a hell of a post. Can't wait for the abuse... bring it on.

[quote]nd whats wrong with socialism? You act like its a damn disease or something!<hr></blockquote>

This explains a lot about the rest of your ideas.

One cup of *uncooked* rice is more than a meal, but that's beside the point. Besides cooking rice will change its nutritional value.

Like I said before, it all depends on what you eat, not how many calories are on the food package. How many calories do you think end up in your poop? How many in your neighbor's? The answer isn't always the same.

[quote]Alcimedes, I can't say that McDonalds is soley responsible for Italians getting fatter, but as I said before, its these types of places that are changing the very fabric of any culture, like the italian one. .................................................. ..........................Do I want culture to stop and stay at a stand still? No, but maybe we should ALL be a bit more responsible as to making some quick money and changing the diets and culture of entire societies and countries.
<hr></blockquote>

actually, when you rephrase that, that's fine with me, i don't disagree with you there. you could get into whether or not parents should let their kids dictate that stuff, but it's really a superficial arguement at that point. you're essentially right.

[quote]Like I said before, it all depends on what you eat, not how many calories are on the food package. How many calories do you think end up in your poop? How many in your neighbor's? The answer isn't always the same.<hr></blockquote>

my point is to some people is does matter how many calories are in the food package. what you poop out is a moot point. if you don't take in a crapload ( ) more than you need, you won't be pooping a bunch out, or converting a bunch to fat.

i'm talking about controlling the problem before it enters into the system. you're talking about how different people deal with it after it's in the system. just don't let it enter the system and you can't have a problem with it.

one reason i focus on rice is that i ate a lot of it in college. i had a rice cooker and would consistantly go through a 50lb. bag every semester. you basically can't eat enough rice to get fat, if that makes up 80% of your diet.

[ 12-13-2001: Message edited by: alcimedes ]</p>

[quote]Originally posted by beer:
<strong>

This explains a lot about the rest of your ideas.</strong><hr></blockquote>

do you even know what Socialism is? I am NOT a Socialist... but there are some things and ideas that have been done in the name of socialism that were good. Not everything is black and white you know?

And at least back-up your ideas with some thoughts or comments as to WHY you think that instead of some silly one-liners like above.

Im not out to convert the masses or PROVE everyone wrong, Im just trying to open more points of view and input. I certainly don't expect everyone to agree with me either. But I sure as hell am not going to just fade away because I present different views.

Well, I'm all set to go to lunch at the all-you-can-eat Golden Corral Steakhouse Buffet. For only $5.79 I can choose damn near anything I want to eat. If I choose to eat healthy, I will/do.

Compare this to $5 spent at McDonald's.

It's a bargain. And they have plenty of fresh fruits, grains, virii, etc. to choose from.

That is why I wear a stretchy-belt!

[quote]And at least back-up your ideas with some thoughts or comments as to WHY you think that instead of some silly one-liners like above. <hr></blockquote>

Okay.

McDonald's freely purchases a parcel of land in Italy. Abiding entirely within the laws of the country, they build a McDonalds fast food joint. They charge for their goods. Italians come into the McDonalds, are enticed by the products, and purchase them. They enjoy the products, so they return often.

Seeing the potential for profits, other Italian businessmen open up McDonalds franchises around the country. More people visit them. More people find they like the food.

Some of these patrons enjoy the food a little bit too much and exercise not quite enough. They willingly spend more money on the junk food than they should, and they willingly don't exercise. They grow fat.

That's the way the whole process works. Individuals do what they want and accept the burden of responsibility for their free actions.

And yet, in your mind, you see this:

[quote]But I can say this much, it IS American corporations and "way of life" that is continously FORCED and PUSHED onto EVERY DAMN CULTURE OF THE WORLD in one way or another and its really really incredibly disturbing. Just because the USA IS the most powerful nation in the world DOES NOT mean we have to continously change everyone's thinking all the damn time!<hr></blockquote>

Your statement is radically collectivist. You abdicate the rights and responsibilities of the Individual in favor of some greater cultural good, and some greater collective responsibility. By that standard, you made a caustic attack on the USA.

Thus, when you stated that you didn't consider Socialism such a bad thing, you made it crystal clear that your attack on the culture of the USA wasn't conducted simply out of ignorance or bitterness; it was based on your (in my opinion, dangerously misguided) collectivist tendancies.

Hence the "silly" one liner:

[quote]This explains a lot about the rest of your ideas.<hr></blockquote>

lol, beer, that has to be the best reply to a "silly one liner" i've ever seen here.

you read his second statement though? that one makes a bit more sense, at least it did to me.

and i took exception to the same phrases you did from the first one.

[quote]Originally posted by Aries 1B:
<strong>Have you read the Atkins diet book?

What specific part didn't you agree with? Why?</strong><hr></blockquote>
It's not a matter of agree or disagree - it's not an opinion issue. There is a ton of scientific research on nutrition, all of it consistent with the food guide pyramid, and inconsistent with the overwhelmingly popular Atkins / Zone / Carbohydrate Addict / Sugar Busters / Hellers / Eades diets.

I'm friends with lots of scientists and clinicians in this area, and this stuff drives them crazy. It's like evolution to biologists, or free trade to economists - it's so obvious and clear to people who are scientists in the area, but most people seem to think they know better.

1. There is absolutely zero empirical research demonstrating the effectiveness of these diets. The arguments come from historical ramblings about mummies and pseudoscientific and inaccurate babble about insulin and ketosis.

2. All of the research supports the basic food pyramid, i.e., that most of your calories should come from the bottom category of breads and pastas and rice, etc., and fewer of your calories should come from fat. The low-carb diets reverse this, so that most of your calories are coming from fat, and little from carbs, fruits, and veggies

3. There are two ways a diet like this reduces your weight:
a. By reducing your overall calorie intake, which will happen if you massively restrict a huge portion of your food.
b. By putting you into ketosis, which diminishes your appetite and makes you lose water.
Neither of these are genuine methods of long-term weight loss.

4. When Atkins initially published his book 30 years ago, it was very popular, and then discredited by scientists. So he waited a couple of decades, and is now at it again.

5. Long-term use of a low-carb diet leads to increased risk of CVD and cancer, among other things - basically, you lose the health benefits provided by basing your diet on all the great foods at the base of the pyramid.

6. In order to sell a diet book (and recipe books, and foods, and vitamins and herbs, and videos, and classes, etc.), you have to be different. You're not going to sell your products if you simply restate basic science - how boring. Plus the basic science says it's hard to lose weight - you've got to consume less and exercise more.

7. Fat tastes good. Even better than the bottom of the pyramid foods, like breads, pasta, rice, etc., at least to most of us. That's why these diets are attractive to people. "I can eat good tasting food, and still lose weight!"

Don't know exactly how much such a thing affects the nutritional and caloric content of the meal, but if you want to get rice to taste good enough, try this sauce recipe, my own version of traditional Panang. This is all off the top of my head, but I've cooked it enough that I probably remember everything.

Ingredients:

2 tbsp Panang curry paste. Be careful to get pure curry paste and not stuff that's already flavoured with the rest of the ingredients.

1 14 oz can of coconut milk. Let can sit upright overnight.

1 tbsp Nam Pla (Thai fish sauce). Get the stuff that's watery, brown, and partially transparent, not the viscous stuff.

2 tbsp golden brown sugar.

1 pineapple ring in juice or syrup.

1/4 cup whole basil. Preferably Thai or purple.

Directions:

Skim the heavy cream off the top of the coconut milk can and heat in a saucepan until boiling. The cream will be approximately half of the volume of the can. Add the curry paste and cook for 3 minutes, stirring continuously. Add the rest of the coconut milk and return to a boil. Taste to determine correct level of spiciness. Keep in mind you can use as little sauce per volume of rice as you want, but it is difficult to exceed the spiciness of the sauce at this point without adding more curry now.

Cut the pineapple ring into bite-sized pieces (I prefer eighths) and add to the sauce. Cook for one minute. Add brown sugar and fish sauce. Cook for 2-3 minutes.

Remove from heat and add the basil. The ambient heat in the sauce should be just enough to make the leaves wither and absorb their taste.

Serve over rice, being judicious with its application until you are experienced with its strength and your tolerance for spice. I prefer to wash my rice before cooking it, but if this is a means to provide nutrition for the day, I would suggest not washing off the rice flour. You'll lose a lot of the nutrients.

For a more robust meal, add sliced duck or chicken to the sauce after the sugar and fish sauce are mixed in. Cook the normal 2-3 minutes for a pre-roasted duck or until thoroughly cooked for raw chicken. I will occasionally pan-fry the roasted duck until it's crispy and pour the curry sauce over it and the rice at the same time.

The above sauce recipe has proven to be just enough for 2 cups uncooked rice in my experience.

-- ShadyG

Just saw this fact on the news...
there are over 300,000 weight related injuries reported every year.

Shape up people! Boycott bloated, junk food resturants! Excercise! Diet!

120 lbs 6 feet for me.

[quote]Originally posted by ZO:
[QB]
What am I getting to? I'm worried that the cultural implications of fast food (quantity and no substance over quality) will become a common way of thinking for my and future generations of Europeans will cut corners, become superficial, and look at speed speed speed and make sure its just cheaper and to hell with quality... lets just sell more! Jaguar started going that way. Only recently have they gotten their act together... but otherwise, they were making some of the worst cars in the world. The common saying was that if you get a Jag, you better be rich enough to buy two of them... one will always be in the garage getting repaired! (just to clarify for the rabid USA #1 patriots, I am NOT blaming this on the USA... yeeesh).QB]<hr></blockquote>

You should be blaming the turn-around of Jaguar on the US. There was this little US company that bought them out a few years ago. Perhaps you've heard of them..... Ford?

lol, nevermind. americans are fat 'cause they're all sick with a disease. sheesh, this whole time i thought it was a bad diet/self control issue. oops.

[quote]I am American.<hr></blockquote>

Well you certainly fooled me.

[quote]I've just been able to step away from the USA for a while be able to see American life from different perspectives instead of the closed and padded view most Americans like to think of themselves as being in.<hr></blockquote>

So if you were to be asked what your nationality is right now, you would register as an American?

Give it up, you're not a ****ing American. Don't speak for us, thanks.

I have no problem with critique of America. I have a big problem with whining idiots who have no brains.

[quote]Its just that the USA basically created junk food and has been pushing it like crazy over here these last few decades.<hr></blockquote>

1) The USA did not create junk food.
2) The "USA" hasn't been "pushing" it.

You're confusing multi-national corporations for the U.S. once again.

[quote]Case in point, when you have the money and want to buy QUALITY do you buy American luxury goods or European?<hr></blockquote>

The attraction to European products is the fact that they are European. That's why you get those things.

What is the practical different between a friggin' Rolex and a Fossil watch?
I'll tell you what the difference is, genius, price and image.

It's absolutely hilarious that you would accuse the U.S. of being obsessed with impression and you are in EUROPE.
There isn't a god-damned thing authentic about Europe. ****ing puppet monarchies and half-assed socialism covering up deep-rooted racism. If there's any body of people on the earth who are logically excluded from pointing fingers about artifice it's the ****ing Europeans.

Japan has Europe's ass kicked for quality in cars, too. Sorry, you lose there again.

[quote]And whats wrong with socialism? You act like its a damn disease or something! Sure, too much socialism sucks, but heck, its done great things here.<hr></blockquote>

Well, it is a disease. It eats away at personal freedom like a virus. Just look at the EU's recent attempts to make racism illegal.

It's done great things there. . . that's hilarious. Look at Germany's economy. The same Germany that fines Wal-Mart Stores for working too much. Going right down the ****ing shitter.

[quote]After 10+ years here, you come to appreciate the goods and the bads of my beloved USA as well as the good and the bads of Europe.<hr></blockquote>

That's funny, you seem unable to mention a good thing about the U.S.

[quote]But why do some of you take what I say so damn litterally? Be a bit more open minded!<hr></blockquote>

You whine about the U.S. making Italian kids fat and I'm not open-minded.

Think before you speak.

[quote]You get used to mediocre, and it carries on to how you live life and your attitude twords life and work and society.<hr></blockquote>

You act as if Europe wasn't about mediocrity before McDonald's. Arguably the most racist and backward continent on the planet.

The land of 4 day work-weeks and months of vacation. Yes, they certainly pride themselves in their work.

You are one condescending ****ing prick. If I brought you to the deep south and fed your punk-ass some collard greens and chitlins you'd whine for a "tourist trap" restaurant. Maybe they don't like the food because they're not used to it, you elitist moron.

[ 12-13-2001: Message edited by: groverat ]</p>

I am going to rephrase Artman's post:

Today in the news it was revealed that OBESITY in AMERICA has now eclipsed smoking as the NUMBER 1 (that's #1!!) cause of DEATH

Just because people do something out of ease and because of the pressures of lack of alternatives, due to the increasing lack of time, does not mean that it is a good thing. In other words: just because Italians now frequent McDonald's because they (like everybody now) have no time, no energy to waste, and fewer and fewer alternatives, does not mean that their doing so is a good thing for them. Good for McDonald's but not for Italians . . . or for American's when done in America.

Anybody discuss the "slow Meal" movement in Italy yet? (I haven't scoured this thread)

I don't think anyone is saying that eating at McDonald's constantly is a good thing.

[quote]Originally posted by BRussell:
<strong>
It's not a matter of agree or disagree - it's not an opinion issue. There is a ton of scientific research on nutrition, all of it consistent with the food guide pyramid, and inconsistent with the overwhelmingly popular Atkins / Zone / Carbohydrate Addict / Sugar Busters / Hellers / Eades diets.

I'm friends with lots of scientists and clinicians in this area, and this stuff drives them crazy. It's like evolution to biologists, or free trade to economists - it's so obvious and clear to people who are scientists in the area, but most people seem to think they know better.

1. There is absolutely zero empirical research demonstrating the effectiveness of these diets. The arguments come from historical ramblings about mummies and pseudoscientific and inaccurate babble about insulin and ketosis.

2. All of the research supports the basic food pyramid, i.e., that most of your calories should come from the bottom category of breads and pastas and rice, etc., and fewer of your calories should come from fat. The low-carb diets reverse this, so that most of your calories are coming from fat, and little from carbs, fruits, and veggies

3. There are two ways a diet like this reduces your weight:
a. By reducing your overall calorie intake, which will happen if you massively restrict a huge portion of your food.
b. By putting you into ketosis, which diminishes your appetite and makes you lose water.
Neither of these are genuine methods of long-term weight loss.

4. When Atkins initially published his book 30 years ago, it was very popular, and then discredited by scientists. So he waited a couple of decades, and is now at it again.

5. Long-term use of a low-carb diet leads to increased risk of CVD and cancer, among other things - basically, you lose the health benefits provided by basing your diet on all the great foods at the base of the pyramid.

6. In order to sell a diet book (and recipe books, and foods, and vitamins and herbs, and videos, and classes, etc.), you have to be different. You're not going to sell your products if you simply restate basic science - how boring. Plus the basic science says it's hard to lose weight - you've got to consume less and exercise more.

7. Fat tastes good. Even better than the bottom of the pyramid foods, like breads, pasta, rice, etc., at least to most of us. That's why these diets are attractive to people. "I can eat good tasting food, and still lose weight!"</strong><hr></blockquote>

I greet you, BRussell. Thank you for responding to my posting. I don't have time to repsond right now (look at my time stamps-gotta get some sleep!).

I did find some links for you to take a look at. Yes, some are from the Atkins Web Site, but one is from NBC. <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" />

Here are the links:

NBC: <a href="http://stacks.msnbc.com/news/592329.asp" target="_blank">http://stacks.msnbc.com/news/592329.asp</a>

iVillage: <a href="http://www.ivillage.com/diet/features/herbs/qas/0,5090,5776,00.html" target="_blank">http://www.ivillage.com/diet/features/herbs/qas/0,5090,5776,00.html</a>

From the Atkins site: <a href="http://www.atkinscenter.com/news_story.asp?newsID=31" target="_blank">http://www.atkinscenter.com/news_story.asp?newsID=31</a>

Atkins response to the American Heart Association's claims about high-protein, controlled carbohydrate diets:
<a href="http://www.atkinscenter.com/news_story.asp?newsID=10" target="_blank">http://www.atkinscenter.com/news_story.asp?newsID=10</a>

I'll be back tomorrow and will endeavor to respond as thoughtfully and as respectfully as I am able. Thank you.

If you don't hear from me, then I'm dead of a heart attack and you were right all along

Aries 1B

I am constantly amazed that anyone cares about anyone else's obesity.

If it were suddenly disclosed that the #1 killer of adults in America was ice skating accidents, would you rush out to help ban ice skates? Would you consider it to be a "good thing" if a stigma was created against ice skating?

It's called free will. Let people eat whatever they want. People who consider thin people attractive will continue to do so. People who consider fat people attractive will continue to do so. Some people will die of obesity-related causes. Everyone else will die of something else.

Who cares?

Oh, and, incidentally, let me say that I spent two weeks in Rome this past spring and found McDonald's to be the best-tasting food I could find

Fortunately, this situation changed rapidly once I got out of Rome itself. The food's a lot better in the mezzogiorno.

ColorClassic, I for one, never mentioned anything about legislating anything.

I do think, though, that it is fascinating. Certain things are SYMPTOMS of deeper conditions. The fact that Obesity has now eclipsed smoking related causes of death in America says bookloads worth about the way we live here, now, under the timeclock and on the stripmall.
For one it might just mean that there are fewer smoking related deaths (but that's not the case)

Distance from America may provide different insights about things that many of us Americans may be too close to see. I love America, I'm American, I'm not about to move anywhere else, but that doesn't mean that some of what has been said by the fellow American in Belgium doesn't sound right. Particularly because I have travelled alot and have seen different relationships that different groups of people have to such things as leisure, meals, gathering with families, happiness, etc. In some of these places the imposition of a fast food franchise seems like a martian landing . . . and it really also seems like something ugly. And, its often the sign that some fundamental shift in these people's relationship to time and place is probably taking place, probably, due to external economic pressures. I'm not saying lets stop change, just noting it. And saying that many people who experience these 'martian landings' in their ancestral landscape feel sadness and fear that what they know and love will be changed in ways that they don't want. What will thay change into...? ...

When I drive across America (which I do allot) and I see endless expanses of the same few mega-stores and fast food chains, and I see the happiness that these things bring to the people and the beauty they confer on the landscape I can't help but feeling alittle AMBIVALENT. In a way, they are comforting because they are familiar, they are the places of ONE great culture... a mono-culture, made up of many different middle-managers in the same orange and red uniforms and caps. But this is the culture that we pay for, and in the franchise world, by definition "what we pay for we must want."

never mind that that is false. . . and that we don't have a real choice . . . whether you want it BIGGIE SIZED is a false choice: fat or fatter.

The point is is that we are so accustomed to this landscape of gigantic parking lots that stretch from city to city that we don't even see them anymore, and when you move to a place where people have a different relationship to their landscape (still), you can see the TARMAC back home.

I will note though, that Belgium (except for the South and some of the older city centers) is the ugliest European country, and is like one large suburb of concrete and STREET LIGHTS!!
(I know you know what I'm talking about Mr. Belgium)

But only a Jackass flips out when criticized. *ehem*Gr...

Anyway, maybe its because the reactionary could see that in discussing American obesity we are talking about a SYMPTOM of something deeper that's the reason they had to flip out and take it as some kind of anti-patriot attack on America. . . its always political in some eyes


Whoppers sure do taste good though.

...w/ cheese!!

(if you can call it that)

So, ColorClassic, I for one, never mentioned anything about legislating anything, let it all grow, its beautifull in its tragic inevitability

[ 12-14-2001: Message edited by: pfflam ]</p>

first to ColorClassic:

I totally agree that Italian food in the south is excellent. Went to the heel of Italy, Puglia, and in one week I gained about 5kilos. (hehe, talking about fat americans ).

to pfflam:

I TOTALLY agree this county, Belgium, is the ugliest in Europe. I live in Brussels and its depressing as hell. Grey streets, grey people, grey skies... everything grey. And its almost always raining and cold. For some freak weather anomaly its -10celsius today and its just too much. Luckily Paris is 1h30 away by train, Amsterdam is 2h, London also about 2h. And Rome is 1h30 by plane. So, weekends can be easily be spent NOT HERE. Also, there is tons of work here (almost every company has their HQ here), almost everyone speaks english, and its a great mix of all the european cultures. Overall, I guess I'm taking the 'mediocre/average' approach... its not too bad, and its not too good either. See, I'm still American!

Also, I liked your post in general. Very true. Thats what McDonalds a success. It was a familiar site and you knew that you would always get the same 'good' quality food at each and every one of them. It made/makes you feel more at home anywhere you are.
I will admit that when I travel to foreign countries, I feel more at ease if I know there is a McDonalds somewhere in case the local food (and I taste it all first) really sucks.

to groverat:

I dunno what to say. I have my opinions and you have yours. You, for some reason, absolutely hate my guts and I honestly don't give a damn. You are not objective about this whole ordeal and I'm sorry that it has to come down to you having a need to insult me in one way or another. I am saying things the way I see them and feel about them after putting together many many different points of view.
If you love the US so much as you seem to do, the best thing you can do to improve it is to also be critical of it. There are things that are just not right with American society and it drives me nuts when I see it and see that fellow Americans think of it as being normal.

in regards to your outburst of 'laziness' to Europeans because of the socialists, do you realize that Europe is not the USA? You, and many others, seem to forget that. US laws are NOT the best for EVERYONE in the world! This is what you are implying. Just because you are jealous that because I live and work in Europe I have 25 days of paid vacation each year doesn't make me or this continent a bad place!!! In France you have even more time off and legally can only work 35hours a week. Is this bad???
In Italy there is the 'siesta' from 1pm to about 3pm where most shops are closed... but then they are open until 8pm. In many European countries kids still go to school on Saturdays. And the list goes on and on...

I AM SORRY IF THERE IS MORE TIME TO ENJOY FREE TIME IN EUROPE THAN THERE IS IN THE USA! I AM TRUELY HONESTLY SORRY THAT I CAN ENJOY LIFE!

I felt sorry for a great friend of mine who works in Canada for my same company and who after more than one year working for them, hadn't gotten a single day off and once the division ( a .com) went down the drain, got a 2 day notice and not a dime more (no severance, no nothing) and he was the best sales guy they had by far. And this ain't just any .com... it was part of one of a huge US multinational.

What freaks me out more is that everyone in North America thinks this is NORMAL. Jesus people... come ENJOY life a bit, come over here to Europe! But then again, there are bogey men and socialists everywhere that will try and abduct you and do experiments on you and then sell your body parts to the Taliban.

look when this thread started it was meant as a joke against americans and all you are doing is talking seriously??? why??? who cares whos fat plump dumpy bean pole or what ever the point that was being made is that americans are lazy not individuals so dont call me all the names but you are very lazy in an earlier link about the bombs this is depicted clearly (faulty batteries) now you would rather kill your selves than do things properly its insane and if it was just a one off then so be it but you seem to have a knack for **** ups
sorry if i offend anyone and im not saying any other nation is perfect

[quote]Originally posted by pfflam:
<strong>Anyway, maybe its because the reactionary could see that in discussing American obesity we are talking about a SYMPTOM of something deeper that's the reason they had to flip out and take it as some kind of anti-patriot attack on America. . . its always political in some eyes </strong><hr></blockquote>

Everything I like about America was destroyed long before I was born. I have no quibbles with your opinions on fast food and what it signifies. McDonald's restaurants look like cancerous tumors to me.

What I was mystified by were posts like Artman's:

[quote]<strong>
Just saw this fact on the news...
there are over 300,000 weight related injuries reported every year.

Shape up people! Boycott bloated, junk food resturants! Excercise! Diet!
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Why would anyone care where anyone else ate or what weight they were?