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Apple responds to Android sales, says NPD data doesn't tell whole story - Page 2

post #41 of 226
Wow - the iPhone diehards, like Apple, seem pretty irritated by the source article. I'd go see a mental health professional.

Google's coming
post #42 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark2005 View Post

As I wrote yesterday, AT&T reported 2.7m activations this past quarter. Some small number above that may have bought iPhones and activated on T-mobile or outside the US.

According to IDC, HTC sold 2.6m smartphones and Motorola sold 2.3m smartphones this past quarter worldwide. (Canalys reportes 2.8m for HTC and 2.6m for Motorola, so you can see that it's not that accurate.) Samsung also sold some Android phones in the US (but its not in the top 5 worldwide so its total is less than 2.3m smartphones). There are other Android-based phones, but I think most of those sales are outside US.

So roughly over 5m smartphone sales worldwide between HTC, Motorola and Samsung. Most of Motorola's smartphone sales are probably in the US. Based on 3Q2009 data, a good portion of HTC's sales were WinMo-based; I'm sure less are WinMo-based now, but don't have any data for 1Q. The majority of HTC's sales are probably outside of US, but again, no specific data.

Conclusion: The numbers indicate that Android-based smartphone sales are in the same ballpark as iPhone for Q1.

If you are going to come up with a "conclusion" at least make an effort to use numbers that are meaningful. You are tossing in thinks, extrapolations, and other fluff without any detail. And you additionally only select AT&T activations and some small percentage of that as smartphones. Is this meant to say this is the percentage that represents iPhone? Since you measure Android on a worldwide basis why would you use only AT&T as the iPhone basis?
post #43 of 226
Cry me a river Apple. BOGO complaints. One carrier complaints. Whose fault is that????????????? Crippled no-Flash phone??????????????

I will NOT get an iPhone as long as AT&T is the carrier. In fact, I and many others will NOT get an iPhone until it comes to Verizon and only Verizon.

Besides, with my DROID Incredible, I'm pretty sure I won't be asking for an iPhone in the future. And many more are in the same boat!

Attack that now all you want.
post #44 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffreytgilbert View Post

what? could you be any more blindly biased? same holds true for most apple stats but nobody complains about those. android can be good without iphone being bad.

Actually, any Statistician will tell you that any statistical analysis is just a bunch of lies, any statistician worth his degree can make a bunch of numbers tell a story they want to tell and the fact this analysis is base on some sort of survey makes is far worse. And no, I do not believe apples numbers either, just like they are claiming to be the 3 largest cell phone maker, well they dices that data down to smart phones only, but now people think they are number 3 in the world for all cell phones. People forget the assumption and caveats behind the analysis and draw conclusion which are not factual.
post #45 of 226
No way Apple even cares. They already control more than 2% of overall mobile phone market worldwide and the share is growing. They have done it in 3 years by releasing essentially only one smartphone model (yes i know you will point out 1gen, 2g,3g,3gs....now look them up on google images and than compare specs, same phone). More to this iPhone is a pricy piece of tech, the lowest you are looking at is around $600 for the low end model worldwide.

Droid? So all these manufactures managed to sell more in ever growing market against only one phone. Good for them. Not bad for iPhone either.
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post #46 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

"This is a very limited report on 150,000 U.S. consumers responding to an online survey and does not account for the more than 85 million iPhone and iPod touch customers worldwide,"

I don't know about anything else (sorry, it sounds like a "he said, she said" kind of deal), but unless something changed, the iPod Touch isn't a phone, so it's not going to be directly relevant to a smartphone market tally.
post #47 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by AsianBob View Post

And where in the business handbook does it say that you aren't allowed to have BOGO promotions?

Is it ethical? Yes No. There is no one size fits all code of Ethics. Each business defines it's own and declares itself ethical.
Does it cause additional money to be made? Yes Yes

BOGO is completely fair game. I'm still surprised Apple/AT&T hasn't done one to even further increase its marketshare and profits.



Oh? And you have the actual Q1 sales numbers to prove that NPD's data is a lie?

All is fair in love and war.
post #48 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

I don't know about anything else (sorry, it sounds like a "he said, she said" kind of deal), but unless something changed, the iPod Touch isn't a phone, so it's not going to be directly relevant to a smartphone market tally.

Interesting catch...

Quote:
Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer View Post

All is fair in love and war.

Eh, you have a point there. I was thinking in broad terms or moral ethics. They didn't sacrifice a million kids or stole from the poor or used oil derived from currently endangers species in the delivery trucks to initiate the BOGO deal. That we know of...
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post #49 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

I don't know about anything else (sorry, it sounds like a "he said, she said" kind of deal), but unless something changed, the iPod Touch isn't a phone, so it's not going to be directly relevant to a smartphone market tally.

The report says Android outsells iPhone. Android is an OS. iPhone is a smartphone. iPhone OS on the other hand is used on iPod Touch and iPad.
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post #50 of 226
is Apple all worried about market share? I thought they didn't care about that, just making the one best product possible, at a great profit. If they're worried about market share, perhaps a few new phone models, some with a replaceable battery.
post #51 of 226
You guys do realize this is APPLEinsider.com. Go troll your own Android sites instead of coming here just to pick a fight. Apple is right though. i don't care if they're in 20th place. I'll still buy the next iPhone.
post #52 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by DESuserIGN View Post

"Ethical" business cannot be done in China?
I was unaware of that (and I'm no big fan of the government of the PRC, although I appreciate Chinese citizens.)

You mean to tell me that offshoring jobs (like the manufacturing jobs that help put the iphone together) is ethical for the American worker? hmmmm.
post #53 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by AsianBob View Post

BOGO is completely fair game. I'm still surprised Apple/AT&T hasn't done one to even further increase its marketshare and profits.

I don't get why people say this is a bad thing. As a consumer, I'd be happy if people cut me a deal (which is what BOGO is....it's not free). I find it odd that people on here think its a good thing that Apple doesn't cut prices or offers special deals to gain marketshare. Good for shareholders. Not so good for me as a consumer (of Apple products). And where were all these people when the iPhone was first launched for $600 and the price dropped. Were they all upset that Apple 'discounted' the iPhone?

Good on Verizon and their partner OEMs for competing. People act like that's a bad thing for us consumers. If Apple and AT&T were smart, they would counter by offering the last gen iPhone for free on contract and convert every high school kid onto the iPhone platform for life....and who knows, we might see that yet! It's like smoking. The phone companies have to get 'em young!
post #54 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by mac_dog View Post

walmart doesn't provide their employees with adequate healthcare and sends them to get additional care through their respective states, thereby depleting the funds that can go to those less fortunate than them.

(clipped)

Should retailers really should be in the business of providing healthcare to anyone anyhow?

Quote:
Originally Posted by phoebetech View Post

all companies are unethical to a degree. if apple is ethical, why is it doing business in China?

There's nothing inherently unethical about doing business in China whatsoever. In fact doing business there enriches 1) the Chinese workers and companies doing the manufacturing; 2) Apple as the producer and 3) us as consumers by lowering the cost of goods.
post #55 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maestro64 View Post

Actually, any Statistician will tell you that any statistical analysis is just a bunch of lies, any statistician worth his degree can make a bunch of numbers tell a story they want to tell and the fact this analysis is base on some sort of survey makes is far worse. And no, I do not believe apples numbers either, just like they are claiming to be the 3 largest cell phone maker, well they dices that data down to smart phones only, but now people think they are number 3 in the world for all cell phones. People forget the assumption and caveats behind the analysis and draw conclusion which are not factual.

One question, well two questions actually. Are you a professional statistician? Do you have any formal training in statistics beyond a typical intro to math or psych stats taught at the undergraduate level?
post #56 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffreytgilbert View Post

what? could you be any more blindly biased? same holds true for most apple stats but nobody complains about those. android can be good without iphone being bad.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by iGrumble View Post

That I did not know. I wonder if any statisticians would care to comment on whether that can be considered to be a representative sample? Apart from the possibility that survey participants might be somewhat self-selecting or otherwise a biased set, it actually sounds like a reasonable way to extrapolate those figures.

First, I'm not a statistician, but I know enough to know that most people don't even have the first clue about basic statistics work. I don't know very well how NPD gathers its information, I think the worst of it could be self-selection, the number of respondents itself isn't a problem at all. National political polls often work with a few thousand respondents, but they try to randomize those polled sufficiently to best represent the greater population. Most of the time, the people that complain that it's only a four digit number of people polled out of a population of nine digits, don't really understand the process or the math behind it. A sample of 5000 can represent half a billion people to a good degree of confidence, but there is a process that needs to be followed.
post #57 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

I don't know about anything else (sorry, it sounds like a "he said, she said" kind of deal), but unless something changed, the iPod Touch isn't a phone, so it's not going to be directly relevant to a smartphone market tally.

It's apples and oranges.

If you want to compare device sales, you compare each individual smart phone model to the iPhone - and the iPhone wins handily. No single Android phone comes close to iPhone sales.

OTOH, if you want to compare OS sales (which is implied by the fact that they're lumping all Android models together), then you need to include the iPod Touch and iPad, as well.
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post #58 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by mudpud View Post

Wow - the iPhone diehards, like Apple, seem pretty irritated by the source article. I'd go see a mental health professional.

Google's coming

What I think is funny is that almost everyone posting on this thread is a troll or someone who doesn't normally post a lot. There's a reason for that.

All you anti-Apple types are slapping yourselves on the back here, but it's not even at issue that iPhone is outselling Android by a huge margin world-wide. You can criticise this thing or that thing about Apple's statement and the fact that they include iPods in their 85 million figure, but the bottom line is this part (which doesn't include iPods BTW):

Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple

... IDC figures show that iPhone has 16.1 percent of the smartphone market and growing, far outselling Android on a worldwide basis... iPhone sales (grew) by 131 percent (last quarter) ... we see no signs of the competition catching up anytime soon."

Those are unassailable facts. iPhone is swamping Android in terms of sales and interest from both developers and customers world-wide.

The original online survey merely indicates that in the USA *only* Android *might* be doing slightly better in terms of unit sales (even as it makes relatively no money for those selling it or selling applications for it).
post #59 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maestro64 View Post

Also, you have not clue about marketing, Apple is not interested in gaining market share over devaluing the product. This is marketing 101, Apple will never allow the product to be given away, either you pay the price of you do own the product. Why give away a product when people are whiling to pay for.

If Apple does not care about market share and volumen, then why did they drop the price of the original iPhone by hundreds of dollars?
post #60 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soskok View Post

The report says Android outsells iPhone. Android is an OS. iPhone is a smartphone. iPhone OS on the other hand is used on iPod Touch and iPad.

There aren't a lot of non-phone Android devices out there, so exactly what would such a distinction prove?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

It's apples and oranges.

If you want to compare device sales, you compare each individual smart phone model to the iPhone - and the iPhone wins handily. No single Android phone comes close to iPhone sales.

Model-for-model, brand-for-brand, iPhone *would* win over the Android, no question about that. But keep in mind that Apple doesn't sell just one iPhone model, there are three being sold right now, so it's not all of Android vs. one model.

Throwing the Touch is just a distraction as far as I'm concerned, because the category in question is clearly smart phones, not handheld devices (No DS) or mobile platforms in general. Out-of-category devices that happen to run the same OS isn't relevant to the category in question. Unless you also want to throw in iPaqs, ATMs, point-of-sale and other embedded devices that run Windows Mobile, and that might skew things in weird ways too, in ways not relevant to the survey in question.
post #61 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondering View Post

If you are going to come up with a "conclusion" at least make an effort to use numbers that are meaningful. You are tossing in thinks, extrapolations, and other fluff without any detail. And you additionally only select AT&T activations and some small percentage of that as smartphones. Is this meant to say this is the percentage that represents iPhone? Since you measure Android on a worldwide basis why would you use only AT&T as the iPhone basis?

By your argument, that would make iPhones only part of the 2.7m that AT&T activated, thus making the number of iPhones smaller and less competitive.

I dropped my t-mobile blackberry pearl and got an iphone because I didn't want to buy missing sync to syn with my iMac. Your statement says that may have been a bad move because I may have bought into something that has a finite lifespan.
post #62 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffreytgilbert View Post

from what i hear, androids marketplace leaves much to be desired. i'm hoping it's usably good for buying apps but i really want to start building them for it now that i got CS5

Not as good as the Apple app store. But that's more of a choice and app quality issue. It's coming along though. I see more and more iPhone apps getting ported to AM regularly. And if Android does gain marketshare, then of course, the popularity of the platform with developers will take off. For now, undoubtedly, the iPhone OS has the largest installed base.

If you are a good developer, there should be no reason why you can't make money off Android thought. Right now, I daresayt it's probably easier to get noticed in Android Market with a good app, than in the iPhone app store.

And while I don't know how difficult it is, given the number of apps that are appearing on both platforms, is it possible for you to develop for both, like many other developers?

Lastly, one thing to keep in mind with Android is that you don't have to necessarily distribute through Android Market. You can simply distribute your app through your own website or alternate Android app stores.
post #63 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quevar View Post

I'm a little surprised Apple bothered to respond - does that indicate that they are scared that such numbers could actually come out? Apple frequently just does their own thing and doesn't respond to reported numbers and only throws out their numbers slanted to make them look good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetz View Post

NEWSFLASH: Apple Public Relations says, "Apple is still the best!"

Though that survey probably has some major flaws, I am surprised by the casual dismal of a sample size of 150 000.

Yeah, sometimes "No comment" is the best answer you can give..

For example: "When did you stop beating your wife?"

.
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post #64 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark2005 View Post

Conclusion: The numbers indicate that Android-based smartphone sales are in the same ballpark as iPhone for Q1.

You say it as though it's a small accomplishment. If that's true (and I don't think Android sales have caught up to the iPhone yet), that'll be quite a feat. It means that Android is catching up (and may have caught up) to the iPhone. It means that Android is proving to be a decent competitor. It's saying a lot if your conclusion is true. I wouldn't minimize that point.

And it's not a bad thing. Competition means better stuff for lower prices for us consumers. Android is good for Apple fans too.
post #65 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody View Post

What I think is funny is that almost everyone posting on this thread is a troll or someone who doesn't normally post a lot. There's a reason for that.

Those are unassailable facts. iPhone is swamping Android in terms of sales and interest from both developers and customers world-wide.

Yes, whenever Apple publishes another record quarter, exceeds whatever, and sells beyond estimates when all the naysayers predicted doom, the trolls are always nowhere to be found except under bridges and parent's basements.

When one (skewed) article comes out that may even remotely show Android in the light, these AI trolls seem to have such a non-existent life that they feel the need to go and rant on an Apple fan-site. Sounds like they are the ones that need medical help. I have no desire to go to an Android fansite when pro-Apple news comes out and troll them.

Trolls... go away, and while you're letting the door hit your backside on the way out, please cancel your AI account too. Get a life.
post #66 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soskok View Post

The report says Android outsells iPhone. Android is an OS. iPhone is a smartphone. iPhone OS on the other hand is used on iPod Touch and iPad.

But when Android moves to PMPs tablets and netbooks I would not expect those numbers to be included in stats specifically about smartphone sales. In overall devices with Android OS, sure, but not in smartphone stats.
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post #67 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by phoebetech View Post

all companies are unethical to a degree. if apple is ethical, why is it doing business in China?

That's an incredibly racist comment. Are you implying that China is unethical? Merely because FOX news says it is doesn't make it so. The Chinese are very hard working people and often take jobs that no one else wants.

If you're referring to Apple doing its manufacturing in China then yes I guess you could say that it is unethical to take jobs away from Americans as an American company but then are there very many manufacturing plants in America setup like Chinese plants that Americans can go to?

Because of the products being sent to China to be made have had the spinoff of making those plants well setup.

If you really want to blame someone as unethical blame the US government who sets up all sorts of legal red tape in order to scam money off people who want to build factories and pay workers in their own countries. In fact it's not just the American government. Here in New Zealand we have something called Resource Consent that goes out of its way to ensure infrastructure and factory building is very difficult to do so companies go overseas to manufacture their products in order to actually get their production numbers up.
post #68 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

There aren't a lot of non-phone Android devices out there, so exactly what would such a distinction prove?



Model-for-model, brand-for-brand, iPhone *would* win over the Android, no question about that. But keep in mind that Apple doesn't sell just one iPhone model, there are three being sold right now, so it's not all of Android vs. one model.

Throwing the Touch is just a distraction as far as I'm concerned, because the category in question is clearly smart phones, not handheld devices (No DS) or mobile platforms in general. Out-of-category devices that happen to run the same OS isn't relevant to the category in question. Unless you also want to throw in iPaqs, ATMs, point-of-sale and other embedded devices that run Windows Mobile, and that might skew things in weird ways too, in ways not relevant to the survey in question.

iPod Touch is pretty smart too , so in this case it's very much relevant.

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post #69 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom J View Post

Apple actually has a spokesperson? What does she do the other 364.9 days of the year?

She says "no comment".
post #70 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soskok View Post

The report says Android outsells iPhone. Android is an OS. iPhone is a smartphone. iPhone OS on the other hand is used on iPod Touch and iPad.

if iPhone OS devices are fair game, why didn't they use respondent data including the variety of Android tablets out there?

iPod Touch and iPad data is irrelevant for smartphone numbers.
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post #71 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by Povilas View Post

iPod Touch is pretty smart too , so in this case it's very much relevant.

Yes, it's a smart device, but it's not a phone, one key part of smart *phone*, thus not relevant in a tally of smart phones. I didn't think these distinctions were so difficult to handle.

I also don't see how it necessarily means that they're cherry picking information, if you pay attention to the information and the stats, you'll know what it means and what it doesn't. I think the information was set out pretty plainly, if the reader misinterprets that information, I don't see how it's anyone's fault but the reader's.
post #72 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maestro64 View Post

And no, I do not believe apples numbers either, just like they are claiming to be the 3 largest cell phone maker, well they dices that data down to smart phones only, but now people think they are number 3 in the world for all cell phones. People forget the assumption and caveats behind the analysis and draw conclusion which are not factual.

Well duh! Apple only competes in the smartphone market so why should it compare itself to the entire cellphone market? That's just ridiculous to state Apple is doctoring it's numbers to make itself look good by only concentrating on the market that they compete in.

That's like saying Mercedes sells more luxury cars than BMW does but only limiting those numbers to cars when BMW also makes motorcycles. It's not doctoring numbers it's comparing apples for apples.
post #73 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by mudpud View Post

Cry me a river Apple. BOGO complaints. One carrier complaints. Whose fault is that????????????? Crippled no-Flash phone??????????????

I will NOT get an iPhone as long as AT&T is the carrier. In fact, I and many others will NOT get an iPhone until it comes to Verizon and only Verizon.

Besides, with my DROID Incredible, I'm pretty sure I won't be asking for an iPhone in the future. And many more are in the same boat!

Attack that now all you want.

So you want Apple to cater to basically the low end of the market? What in its history or product philosophy has ever given you the indication that the company is interested in that?

I know its fun to shoot off your mouth, but Verizon? That's like saying I'll only buy an Apple when it becomes a Lenovo.

Just curious, do you use your droid to visit mac rumor sites?
post #74 of 226
Nice spin doctoring by Apple's spokesperson.

She responds to a study showing Android outsold iPhone in Q1 of 2010 by saying that Apple has a bigger marketshare overall, which of course refers to sales since 2007...

The fact that Apple let the spokesgimp out of the box for this one is very revealing as to how big an issue this is. Surprised Jobs didn't just post a letter on apple.com...
post #75 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by Superbass View Post

Nice spin doctoring by Apple's spokesperson.

She responds to a study showing Android outsold iPhone in Q1 of 2010 by saying that Apple has a bigger marketshare overall, which of course refers to sales since 2007...

The fact that Apple let the spokesgimp out of the box for this one is very revealing as to how big an issue this is. Surprised Jobs didn't just post a letter on apple.com...

If you want to allow children to buy porn, get an Android phone. We don't allow such content on our marketplace as a commitment to the quality of our service.

- Sent from my iPad
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post #76 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by Superbass View Post

Nice spin doctoring by Apple's spokesperson.

She responds to a study showing Android outsold iPhone in Q1 of 2010 by saying that Apple has a bigger marketshare overall, which of course refers to sales since 2007...

The fact that Apple let the spokesgimp out of the box for this one is very revealing as to how big an issue this is. Surprised Jobs didn't just post a letter on apple.com...

Apple should go back to not commenting on these matters, giving the appearance that they know something we don't lol.
post #77 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by lowededwookie View Post

That's an incredibly racist comment. Are you implying that China is unethical? Merely because FOX news says it is doesn't make it so. The Chinese are very hard working people and often take jobs that no one else wants.

They also have 0 environmental controls or regulations in China, Chinese employees handle hazardaous substances without the normally required (in the Western world) protective equipment, foreign companies negotiate wages directly with the government (who the employees can't vote for), and Apple has no liability for worker safety (this is "guaranteed" by the Chinese government).

How deep is your head in the sand? Have you never wondered why it's so cheap to have things made in China? No environmental regulations, nobody asking for a higher wage, much less insurance needed, and employees never take vacations or say no to overtime!
post #78 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by Superbass View Post

They also have 0 environmental controls or regulations in China, Chinese employees handle hazardaous substances without the normally required (in the Western world) protective equipment, foreign companies negotiate wages directly with the government (who the employees can't vote for), and Apple has no liability for worker safety (this is "guaranteed" by the Chinese government).

How deep is your head in the sand? Have you never wondered why it's so cheap to have things made in China? No environmental regulations, nobody asking for a higher wage, much less insurance needed, and employees never take vacations or say no to overtime!

Unfortunately, consumers would rather pay less for consumer goods than pay a premium to ensure the good welfare of the worker.
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post #79 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drummertist View Post

You guys do realize this is APPLEinsider.com. Go troll your own Android sites instead of coming here just to pick a fight. Apple is right though. i don't care if they're in 20th place. I'll still buy the next iPhone.

You'd buy whatever Jobs tells you to, no? .. And that just so happens to be exactly how Apple likes it. You are Apple's ideal customer. No questions asked.

But listen, try removing your blinders long enough to see what the trend really is now that Android is out full bore. Watch and see how Android devices further penetrate the market from every possible angle from here on out. No? Android-Apple-RIM
post #80 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by lowededwookie View Post

Well duh! Apple only competes in the smartphone market so why should it compare itself to the entire cellphone market? That's just ridiculous to state Apple is doctoring it's numbers to make itself look good by only concentrating on the market that they compete in.

They aren't doctoring the numbers, but they are choosing the ones that make them look better... as every company does. If they were announcing the revenue and profit they get in the handset market — which I think they have — it would behoove them to use the entire handset market as the per unit price drops significantly for non-smartphones.

http://www.appleinsider.com/articles...fit_crown.html
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