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Bush: Water-boarding "just fine".

post #1 of 23
Thread Starter 
Link to story here

George W. Bush admits in his new book re. waterboarding.... it was "damn right", and admits to having authorized such torture/procedure. Waterboarding has been carried out in US rendition facilities on many people who had never been charged with any crime, never been indicted or tried in a court of law, and against some who have been subsequently freed due to a complete and total absence of evidence of any criminal or terrorist activity.

In 1946, the International Miilitary Tribunal for the Far East (aka the Tokyo Trial) was held. A number of the Japanese soldiers convicted by American judges were hanged, while others received lengthy prison sentences or time in labor camps, for inflicting exactly the same torture/procedure that was authorized by George W. Bush, and carried out by CIA in various locations.

Did those Japanese soldiers get too harsh a punishment for their crimes? Or should Bush (the decider) and a bunch of thugs in the US intelligence services and military (the perps) get charged with war crimes, and if found guilty, receive a suitable sentence that befits war crimes and carrying out acts of torture?

What is the difference between Japanese waterboarding prisoners, and the US waterboading prisoners? The nationality? The era in which the crimes were committed? What's the deal with, one one hand, people paying with their lives for heinous crimes, and on the other hand, a privileged brat from a wealthy family getting off scot-free and earning probably $millions from a book in which even the author even admits to the same crime?

Or, are we going soft on war crime?

"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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post #2 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

Link to story here

George W. Bush admits in his new book re. waterboarding.... it was "damn right", and admits to having authorized such torture/procedure. Waterboarding has been carried out in US rendition facilities on many people who had never been charged with any crime, never been indicted or tried in a court of law, and against some who have been subsequently freed due to a complete and total absence of evidence of any criminal or terrorist activity.

In 1946, the International Miilitary Tribunal for the Far East (aka the Tokyo Trial) was held. A number of the Japanese soldiers convicted by American judges were hanged, while others received lengthy prison sentences or time in labor camps, for inflicting exactly the same torture/procedure that was authorized by George W. Bush, and carried out by CIA in various locations.

Did those Japanese soldiers get too harsh a punishment for their crimes? Or should Bush (the decider) and a bunch of thugs in the US intelligence services and military (the perps) get charged with war crimes, and if found guilty, receive a suitable sentence that befits war crimes and carrying out acts of torture?

What is the difference between Japanese waterboarding prisoners, and the US waterboading prisoners? The nationality? The era in which the crimes were committed? What's the deal with, one one hand, people paying with their lives for heinous crimes, and on the other hand, a privileged brat from a wealthy family getting off scot-free and earning probably $millions from a book in which even the author even admits to the same crime?

Or, are we going soft on war crime?


I would like to water board both Bush and Cheney and see what they think about it after it is done to them at least 70 times.
post #3 of 23
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gerald apple View Post

I would like to water board both Bush and Cheney and see what they think about it after it is done to them at least 70 times.

Charges of war crimes before a *real* court of law is the appropriate action. Amnesty International is in agreement.

Take note... a *real* court of law is the place for a real trial, as opposed to "military tribunals", a sickly euphemism for the type of kangaroo justice that Idi Amin or Saddam Hussein would be proud.
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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post #4 of 23
What I don't get is this: we always hear this little speech from wingers when they want to support torture and abuse:

Quote:
If a terrorist had your child and you had another terrorist in your control with a ticking clock of an hour - you would torture to get the information if this was the only way to save your child.

Why can't we also have this little speech too:

Quote:
If a terrorist had your child and was demanding you assassinate the President or the Queen - you would do it if this was the only way to save your child.

It's an interesting philosophical construct.

You can't argue it is just a fiction that would never happen as that is exactly what the first scenario is and wingers and other supporters of torture use it all the time as a given.

You MIGHT be able to say you would not do it and that's fair enough - but personally I would not put the life of a head of State over the lives of my own family.

The second situation is also very near the truth in a metaphorical way - many Heads of State DO OFTEN ROUTINELY put your children (and you) at the mercy of terrorists.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #5 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

Charges of war crimes before a *real* court of law is the appropriate action. Amnesty International is in agreement.

Take note... a *real* court of law is the place for a real trial, as opposed to "military tribunals", a sickly euphemism for the type of kangaroo justice that Idi Amin or Saddam Hussein would be proud.

This kangaroo justice is what Bush and his henchman Cheney need. They never thought of that when thousands of Iraqi's died in the war for nothing and so did our guys!
post #6 of 23
All I can say is I have a legitimately different opinion than everyone above. I do not believe waterboarding is torture. It can be used in extraordinary circumstances, such as the ones which we found ourselves in after 9/11. I believe the practice saved American lives (and others).

I realize that opinion probably drives you guys (sammi, sego and gerald) out of your minds and opens me up to a frontal assault of "-isms." So be it.
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #7 of 23
Please explain why you think waterboarding is not torture.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #8 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Please explain why you think waterboarding is not torture.

Maybe he's confusing it with golden showers?
post #9 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by marcUK View Post

Maybe he's confusing it with golden showers?

I have much man love for you.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
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post #10 of 23
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

All I can say is I have a legitimately different opinion than everyone above. I do not believe waterboarding is torture.

The U.S. convened court in which the Tokyo trials were held most certainly acknowledged that waterboarding IS torture, to the extent that some of the verdicts in those trials, for war crimes amongst which was *torture*, specifically by waterboarding prisoners, resulted in capital sentences for a number of the perps.

I would hazard a guess, that if a liberal, or democratic president had authorized waterboarding, conservatives would be down on him like the proverbial ton of bricks.

Quote:
It can be used in extraordinary circumstances, such as the ones which we found ourselves in after 9/11. I believe the practice saved American lives (and others).

Yes, I agree that the circumstances were extraordinary, but obviously not in the same way that you do.

Even a former weasel-in-chief from Fox News, Geraldo Rivera, now has his doubts about the veracity of the official story concerning that day, and is coming around to acknowledge something closer to common sense, as seen in this video of which was aired yesterday (Saturday, November 13).

If you dare to watch, the right-wing conservative host now admits that he is "much more open-minded about this issue than he was" and the group in question (1,350+ architects and engineers) who are examining the evidence obviously "know a lot more than I do".. (Geraldo's words).

Quote:
I realize that opinion probably drives you guys (sammi, sego and gerald) out of your minds and opens me up to a frontal assault of "-isms." So be it.

Ummmm, SDW, have *you* been waterboarded? Do you have the experience upon which to base that rather lonesome and unrealistic opinion? Did you see the video, a few years ago, of the marine who volunteered to be waterboarded, who lasted all of 5 seconds before frantically signalling his mock captors to stop? His relatively ersatz, mild, easy-street "experience" of waterboarding.... in which he could stop the procedure at any time, where a qualified medical doctor was present, in which nobody present was an enemy, and in which there was no anger and desire for vengeance on the part of the person administering the waterboarding..... is a far cry from the real thing. The volunteer, when asked f that was torture, said YES, it WAS. The type of waterboarding carried out in Gitmo and other rendition facilities is way more severe than what that volunteer experienced, and for much longer periods of time.

SDW, not many people agree with you on this one. Cheney and company will not be be favorably remembered in history, especially in about year or so.

"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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post #11 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Please explain why you think waterboarding is not torture.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__QS0...eature=related

John McCain who spent several years as a guest at the Hanoi Hilton was opposed to torture. He believed that if we condoned it, we could not then protest when our service personnel were prisoners.

Quote:
Q: When you say that you disagree with Bush that you dont want to torture any prisoners--youre not suggesting he did want to torture prisoners?

A: Well, waterboarding to me is torture, OK? And waterboarding was advocated by the administration, and according to a published report, was used.

more McCain comments@ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIHHZ...eature=related
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post #12 of 23
Waterboarding was invented by the Spanish Inquisition wasn't it?
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #13 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Waterboarding was invented by the Spanish Inquisition wasn't it?

Of course it's not 'torture'.

It's merely tricking the body into thinking it's drowning, causing great psychological and physical pain, especially if repeated dozens of times a day.
post #14 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Please explain why you think waterboarding is not torture.

Because it does not inflict lasting physical or psychological damage. It does not create extreme pain. In some case, we have even subjected our own troops to it as a form of training. Are we going to "torture" our own troops?



Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

The U.S. convened court in which the Tokyo trials were held most certainly acknowledged that waterboarding IS torture, to the extent that some of the verdicts in those trials, for war crimes amongst which was *torture*, specifically by waterboarding prisoners, resulted in capital sentences for a number of the perps.

Right sammi..."we" gave capital sentences for waterboarding. It had nothing to do with actual torture. Keep on singin' it!

Quote:

I would hazard a guess, that if a liberal, or democratic president had authorized waterboarding, conservatives would be down on him like the proverbial ton of bricks.

Guesses are useless, as is getting into that hypothetical.

Quote:



Yes, I agree that the circumstances were extraordinary, but obviously not in the same way that you do.

Even a former weasel-in-chief from Fox News, Geraldo Rivera, now has his doubts about the veracity of the official story concerning that day, and is coming around to acknowledge something closer to common sense, as seen in this video of which was aired yesterday (Saturday, November 13).

If you dare to watch, the right-wing conservative host now admits that he is "much more open-minded about this issue than he was" and the group in question (1,350+ architects and engineers) who are examining the evidence obviously "know a lot more than I do".. (Geraldo's words).

No thread is complete without a sammi jo truther conspiracy.

Quote:




Ummmm, SDW, have *you* been waterboarded?

No, have you?

Quote:
Do you have the experience upon which to base that rather lonesome and unrealistic opinion?

Personally? No, do you? My opinion comes from what I've read and seen via video. I'm assuming yours does as well.

Quote:
Did you see the video, a few years ago, of the marine who volunteered to be waterboarded, who lasted all of 5 seconds before frantically signalling his mock captors to stop? His relatively ersatz, mild, easy-street "experience" of waterboarding.... in which he could stop the procedure at any time, where a qualified medical doctor was present, in which nobody present was an enemy, and in which there was no anger and desire for vengeance on the part of the person administering the waterboarding..... is a far cry from the real thing. The volunteer, when asked f that was torture, said YES, it WAS. The type of waterboarding carried out in Gitmo and other rendition facilities is way more severe than what that volunteer experienced, and for much longer periods of time.

Well that settles it! You quote one volunteer, don't provide a link, and conclude that this now unharmed individual was "tortured."

Quote:

SDW, not many people agree with you on this one. Cheney and company will not be be favorably remembered in history, especially in about year or so.


I don't care who agrees with me, as I've previously stated. My opinion is that waterboarding is extremely uncomfortable and causes fear. It should be used only in the most extraordinary circumstances, and should be approved by only the highest levels of government. It does not meet the definition of torture, that being an act that causes extreme pain and/or inflicts lasting physical or psychological damage.
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post #15 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Because it does not inflict lasting physical or psychological damage. It does not create extreme pain.

Two things:

1) We could and should compile a list of 'torture' that falls in this category.

2) Is it true even? For sure if someone who HAD been waterboarded (perhaps the only authority) claimed to have lasting psychological damage then SDW would not accept that.

One wonders what evidence he would accept that it is damaging but I suspect the answer would be 'none'.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #16 of 23
Following from above...according to SDW's definition the following are not methods of torture:

Oxygen deficiency
Partial Suffocation
Extraction of toenails
Electric shock

Btw, the statement is also false as it fails to meet his own criteria according to all experts

Quote:
Waterboarding is a form of torture that consists of immobilizing the subject on his/her back with the head inclined downwards.

Water is then poured over the face into breathing passages, thus triggering the mammalian diving reflex causing the captive to experience the sensations of drowning. In contrast to submerging the head face-forward in water, waterboarding precipitates an almost immediate gag reflex. It can cause extreme pain, dry drowning, damage to lungs, brain damage from oxygen deprivation, other physical injuries including broken bones due to struggling against restraints, lasting psychological damage and, if uninterrupted, death.

Actually the argument that it does not cause pain is an insane one - THAT"S WHY THEY USE IT TO GET INFORMATION!!!!!!

How can you argue that a painless technique is effective? Why not tickle them instead or buy them a round of beers?
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #17 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Following from above...according to SDW's definition the following are not methods of torture:

Oxygen deficiency
Partial Suffocation
Extraction of toenails
Electric shock

Btw, the statement is also false as it fails to meet his own criteria according to all experts



Actually the argument that it does not cause pain is an insane one - THAT"S WHY THEY USE IT TO GET INFORMATION!!!!!!

How can you argue that a painless technique is effective? Why not tickle them instead or buy them a round of beers?

SDW claims he doesn't distort the facts presented on this forum. I'd say this comes under that heading. For someone to be so polarized as to claim that WB isn't torture or doesn't have lasting effects is proof that he distorts the facts.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #18 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Because it does not inflict lasting physical or psychological damage. It does not create extreme pain. In some case, we have even subjected our own troops to it as a form of training. Are we going to "torture" our own troops?

Waterboarding is Harmful in the Long-Term, Science Shows

Quote:
Scientific studies have shown that waterboarding can cause long-term effects, including death. Would that be a reason to define it as torture as it is defined by international laws and treaties that the United States has signed? .....

The absolute terror during waterboarding can cause death as well according to Martin A. Samuels, chairman of the neurology department at Brigham and Women's Hospital in Boston who told ScientificAmerican.com earlier this year that stress hormones can cause the heart to beat abnormally, interrupting its ability to pump blood through the body. Samuels pointed to an experiment where rats were placed in a jar where they could swim but not escape. They frequently died because stress hormones caused their heart cells to contract, inhibiting blood supply......


Does waterboarding have long-term physical effects?

Quote:
......waterboarding in which a person is strapped on a board with a rag or cloth covering his or her face and doused with water -- a form of torture. So does the United Nations' former High Commissioner for Human Rights, Louise Arbour, according to news reports.

It seems pretty obvious that waterboarding can cause emotional trauma, but does it threaten a person's physical health?

No doubt about it, says Allen Keller, an associate professor of medicine at New York University School of Medicine (who, it should be noted, testified that waterboarding is a form of torture before the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence in 2007). During waterboarding, some of this water can flow through the nostrils and into the lungs, Keller explains. Water in the lungs, especially if it's dirty, can cause potentially deadly pneumonia or pleuritis, an inflammation of the lung lining.

Waterboarding could also cause hypoxia, a condition in which the body is not getting enough oxygen, either because the victim is holding his or her breath or inhaling water -- and inadequate oxygen supplies can lead to deadly organ failure, Keller adds.

But don't underestimate how tightly intertwined the physical and psychological experiences of waterboarding are, Keller notes. Since it mimics the terrifying sensation of drowning, it triggers the release of stress hormones called catecholamines that can cause heart rate and blood pressure to soar, potentially setting the stage for heart attack in a person with underlying heart disease, he says.

Then there's the Geneva Convention--Article 3
Quote:
In the case of armed conflict not of an international character occurring in the territory of one of the High Contracting Parties, each Party to the conflict shall be bound to apply, as a minimum, the following
provisions
: http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/7c4d08d9...25641e004a9e68

(1) Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed hors de combat by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all circumstances be treated humanely,.....

.....To this end, the following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever with respect to the above-mentioned persons:

(a) violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture;...

(c) outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment;...

As previously noted, John McCain who was a POW opposed water boarding as a form of torture. He condemned the practice because it could have adverse impacts on how our troops would be treated.
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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post #19 of 23
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Because it does not inflict lasting physical or psychological damage. It does not create extreme pain. In some case, we have even subjected our own troops to it as a form of training.

The other posters in this thread have settled this argument, grand slam fashion.

Quote:
Are we going to "torture" our own troops?

You are assuming that "our troops" are going to treat their buddies in the same fashion that they treat "the assigned enemy" according to their superiors' orders? Get real, SDW.

And another point. If we torture people by waterboarding them, then if they do the same to our POWs, would you accept that as OK?

Quote:
Right sammi..."we" gave capital sentences for waterboarding. It had nothing to do with actual torture. Keep on singin' it!

According to your preconceived beliefs, yes. According to the consensus of all qualified people, and those who have experienced it, no.

Quote:
No thread is complete without a sammi jo truther conspiracy.

Of course not. That event is how all the current neo-fascist effluent, down which the world has gone too many times in the past, got yet another kick-start.

I place infinitely more significance in the inviolability of the laws of nature, the execution of the scientific method and the importance of hard evidence, rather than blind belief in baseless propaganda, weasel-talk and politically-motivated dry-labbed studies from a bunch of psychopaths who benefitted vastly from that event. If that's "conspiracy theory" then I stand up for it, loud and proud, until I take my last fvcking breath.

Quote:
Personally? No, do you? My opinion comes from what I've read and seen via video. I'm assuming yours does as well.

Well that settles it! You quote one volunteer, don't provide a link, and conclude that this now unharmed individual was "tortured."

Here's a volunteer who previously thought waterboarding wasn't torture, until he experienced it. he also lasted barely 5 seconds. And this is also a MILD VERSION of what they do in Gitmo and elsewhere.

Quote:
I don't care who agrees with me, as I've previously stated. My opinion is that waterboarding is extremely uncomfortable and causes fear. It should be used only in the most extraordinary circumstances, and should be approved by only the highest levels of government. It does not meet the definition of torture, that being an act that causes extreme pain and/or inflicts lasting physical or psychological damage.

yadda, yadda, yadda. Keep on drinking that Neocon Koolaid™
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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post #20 of 23

Here's another reporter who underwent waterboarding for a newspaper article.

The interesting thing here is that the newspaper in question - The Sun - is notorious as a Murdoch-owned Right-Wing mouthpiece.

Still, the reporter had this to say:

Quote:
This is no "interrogation technique" but torture pure and simple with no place in a civilised society.

I would have told my interrogator anything they wanted to hear to make it stop.

He lasted 15 seconds.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #21 of 23
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post



This is no "interrogation technique" but torture pure and simple with no place in a civilised society.
I would have told my interrogator anything they wanted to hear to make it stop.

And there is why people in the intelligence agencies say that torture is useless when it comes to gathering meaningful data. When a prisoner is placed under such extreme stress or pain, they will say anything, especially what the interrogator has been briefed to extract, rather than factually accurate/useful material.

Since the huge majority of political prisoners in US custody who have been subjected to torture HAVE BEEN EITHER SINCE BEEN LET GO AFTER UP TO 9 YEARS FALSE IMPRISONMENT, AND/OR WITHOUT EVEN BEING THE SUBJECT OF TRUMPED-UP CHARGES, the chances that they had anything about terrorism is very, very slim indeed. They probably told all kinds of baseless improvised gibberish to their torture-administering captors/thugs, just to get them to stop... and maybe even wasted a lot of taxpayer money and time going after false leads, and clogging computers with garbage data.

Quote:
He lasted 15 seconds.

Wow.. thats >3 times longer than what that other "tough guy" managed. And you can bet that the variety of water-boarding he got was a mild, medically supervised version of the real hardcore thing.
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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post #22 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Here's another reporter who underwent waterboarding for a newspaper article.

The interesting thing here is that the newspaper in question - The Sun - is notorious as a Murdoch-owned Right-Wing mouthpiece.

Still, the reporter had this to say:

He lasted 15 seconds.

There is a distinct difference between this reporter and one who is actually undergoing wb. First he was prepared or briefed. When he had enough, all he had to do was signal his interrogator that he had enough and it would stop.

Yet despite this, the reporter rightfully determined that this was torture--pure and simple. A prisoner has no expectations that his/her interrogator will stop when signaled that enough is enough. Anyone who doesn't think that this is torture should step up and volunteer for a 30 minute session.
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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post #23 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Two things:

1) We could and should compile a list of 'torture' that falls in this category.

Go for it.

Quote:

2) Is it true even? For sure if someone who HAD been waterboarded (perhaps the only authority) claimed to have lasting psychological damage then SDW would not accept that.

One person? Probably not a large enough sample, don't you agree?

Quote:

One wonders what evidence he would accept that it is damaging but I suspect the answer would be 'none'.

Present some and we'll talk.

Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Following from above...according to SDW's definition the following are not methods of torture:

Oxygen deficiency

To the point of what? Death?

Quote:
Partial Suffocation

Is that a technique?

Quote:
Extraction of toenails

Clearly torture

Quote:

Electric shock

Assuming that it was sufficient voltage, also clearly torture.

Quote:

Btw, the statement is also false as it fails to meet his own criteria according to all experts

Actually the argument that it does not cause pain is an insane one - THAT"S WHY THEY USE IT TO GET INFORMATION!!!!!!

How can you argue that a painless technique is effective? Why not tickle them instead or buy them a round of beers?

I never said it was painless. Stop with your strawman garbage. I said "extreme pain."



Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

SDW claims he doesn't distort the facts presented on this forum. I'd say this comes under that heading. For someone to be so polarized as to claim that WB isn't torture or doesn't have lasting effects is proof that he distorts the facts.


Wait...I'm "distorting facts" by opining that I don't consider waterboarding to be torture? Why, because you disagree? That apparently is the new standard for "distorting facts."



While I won't completely dismiss those articles, it's worth noting that they both reference a single man's opinion..Dr. Allen Keller. I don't know his credentials, but I must ask: If the situation was reversed, would you accept the above as conclusive evidence of waterboarding's long term effects? Really...one person...that's what you've got?




Quote:
Then there's the Geneva Convention--Article 3

As previously noted, John McCain who was a POW opposed water boarding as a form of torture. He condemned the practice because it could have adverse impacts on how our troops would be treated.

The Geneva Convention deal with prisoners of war. Terrorists are not prisoners of war. They are not members of the military of a nation-state.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

The other posters in this thread have settled this argument, grand slam fashion.

Yes, by providing two links referencing the testimony of exactly one person. Case closed!

Quote:

You are assuming that "our troops" are going to treat their buddies in the same fashion that they treat "the assigned enemy" according to their superiors' orders? Get real, SDW.

Why assume otherwise? If the intent is to condition our troops to withstand this technique, why would it be different in training? Why assume that the soldier's "buddies" are the ones administering the training?

Quote:

And another point. If we torture people by waterboarding them, then if they do the same to our POWs, would you accept that as OK?

Terrorists are not prisoners of war. I would not support us doing this to military personnel of a nation-state, no.

Quote:

According to your preconceived beliefs, yes. According to the consensus of all qualified people, and those who have experienced it, no.



Of course not. That event is how all the current neo-fascist effluent, down which the world has gone too many times in the past, got yet another kick-start.

I place infinitely more significance in the inviolability of the laws of nature, the execution of the scientific method and the importance of hard evidence, rather than blind belief in baseless propaganda, weasel-talk and politically-motivated dry-labbed studies from a bunch of psychopaths who benefitted vastly from that event. If that's "conspiracy theory" then I stand up for it, loud and proud, until I take my last fvcking breath.

Go, Go Go! Power to the People!


Excellent. A Youtube video.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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