3 lbs sub-PowerBook

well, since apple lowered the prices on the new powerbook models, there really isn't any place for a sub notebook......they have all the price range covered. if they had the old pricing, they could justify a $2000 model, but they can't do that anymore. now, they would be getting into the spectrum of the sony notebooks....they're really cool, but apple wouldn't sell enough and then they'd have to pull it eventually like the cube. sony has the resources, since they have a humongous market, other than computers, but apple may already have shot it'self in the foot with the ipod and i don't think they can take another fringe market computer.

What would you want them to leave out in order to have a sub-3 lb. portable?

have the optical drive connect through USB or firewire

[ 11-13-2001: Message edited by: Max8319 ]</p>

AI just wouldn't be right without a never-ending sub-PowerBook thread!

That said, I'm extremely pleased with my (almost) new iBook. It's no lightweight, but it's still leagues ahead of the behemoths I see most people lugging around. The great sreen, long battery life and sweet keyboard are nice, too.

This was one of my favorite discussions from the old AI. I'm happy to see you've resurrected it, Escher.

I think Apple probably knows, as you've discovered, that the new iBook fulfills most needs for the ultra-portable user. I don't know that a third notebook would be a smart move.

The current iBook is a shade under 5lbs, and still much more bulky than it need be. Perhaps the next major revision (Probably some time in '03) will bring it closer to the 3lb mark.

I think the days of the ultra-portable are numbered, because it's just not possible to fit the features people demand of a notebook into such a small and light package.

[quote]Originally posted by Daver:
<strong>AI just wouldn't be right without a never-ending sub-PowerBook thread!</strong><hr></blockquote>

Yes, I must say the whole board is now beginning to feel a little cozier and homey. Glad to see the return of this thread Escher even if for many of us the iBook currently sits as a stand-in. It looks like I too may at long last be getting my hands on an iBook of my very own this holiday season. My trusty Powerbook 5300ce is now ever so long in the tooth and my 6500--as Cipher13 of MacNN will know--sounded the bell toll (startup chime) of its last breath not more than a month ago. So iBook 500 combo here I come with open arms

I must confess that for me the new iBook is virtually exactly what I wanted--those of you who followed the 2400 dreams thread may remember my desire for a hardwearing, 1024x768, optical drive fitted, 8 1/2" x 11" notebook. But in spite of this I still feel that a supersmall subnotebook would sell and fit into a market segment not currently available to Mac users--and not just because I have been enamoured with portable Macs from my first days with my first Mac, the Powerbook 150.

The problem with the cube was that it was an attractive concept that in reality failed to cut itself a distinctive market niche. In other words, all it had going for it was style--it was just like a powermac, it only looked different. Now I like style, but style needs to be wed with the practical desire of a section of the market not currently fulfilled by an Apple product. While the iBook is a relatively small and light notebook, there still remains a demand for something smaller--particularly in Japan, ask neutrino.

Think about it, Apple's marketing moniker at the moment is something like "The centre of your digital lifestyle" or "The Digitial Hub". Now, as I understand it, the digital hub is really only the Mac OS with it's compliment of "i" apps running on a machine with a set of connectivity ports with which you can hook all your digital devices. An optical drive isn't necessary to the hub itself, it is actually one device like any other. Basically what I am suggesting is that the "Digital Hub" concept in its purest form is a subnotebook: the Mac OS running on a machine with connectivity ports. 3lbs for this does not seem unreasonable.

A subnotebook from Apple would need the iBook's specs, but needs to lose weight.
Possible places: ditch the optical drive and make the battery lithium polymer. Hey, that's actually a pretty cool idea! Assuming it's the same basic size and shape as the iBook, maybe a little thinner, but same size screen and same size keyboard, I wonder how much weight you would save by offering no internal optical drive and replacing a lithium ion battery with a lithium polymer battery. I wonder how long a full-sizwe lithium polymer battery would last an iBook.

Anyway, the SubiBook, or PadMac, or what have you, needs the same specs as the iBook line of that generation. So, let's assume Apple releases this subnotebook in January. I predict iBooks and this new subnotebook will be all the same, with the following specs:

700 MHz G3 Processor
128 MB RAM
30 GB HD
Choice of optical drive (on iBooks)

Ahh, Escher, a new part of AI has been filled with 2400 Dreams.

I think that the iBook's additional .5lbs is justified by the CDROM drive and low price, as Escher has said. Although I agree that a single model of a subnotebook could fit in well, unfortunately, the Apple market coupled with the lousy economy has changed all of this.

The two things that could go to a weight and size reduction of the iBook is no CD drive, and a smaller but same resolution (1024 x 768) 10.4 inch screen. Although not necessary, it would be very nice to have the iBook thinned out as well. C'mon, there is nobody out there carrying a 1.3 inches thick "subnotebook".

A 600 or 700 MHz G3 is all that is needed. Same old Rage 128 mobility is fine and a 20 gig HD at 4200 RPM. As long as it's small and light the features we need can be sacrificed. Plus, the price point needs to stay low. What we cannot sacrifice are ports. 2 USB, and at least one Firewire, preferably two. Slap this into a sleek Titanium case with a frame made with fancy buzzwords and make it rugged. Exposed screws make things look very rugged. However, I'm not sure how large the keyboard can be if the screen is only 10.4 inches with a very thin bezel. Anyone have any numbers on this?

If a 3 lb escherBook came into existence between the iBook and the TiBook, would we not pine for a 2.5 lb powerbook between the iBook and the escherBook on the product grid?

I'd rather see a tabletMac.

jutus, great name for the sub-notebook! "escherBook" Love it. As for the 2.5 lb sub-sub-powerbook/ibook (eB2), once we got that we would have post's like this:

"While the new eB2, is great for me, I would love for Apple to release a lighter version around a ounce. I figure they can take out the battery altogether, and use solar power. The HD can also be replaced with a 1meg flash rom. We can also reduce the screen size to 10x10 pixels. Chances are for the eB1/2 are small, but I really hope Apple releases it!"

Ah, love technology

How about solid-state storage, about 15gb.

[quote]Originally posted by Belle:
<strong>I think Apple probably knows, as you've discovered, that the new iBook fulfills most needs for the ultra-portable user. I don't know that a third notebook would be a smart move.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I agree, I think a sub-PowerBook would probably end up being another cube: a great idea that lots of people love, but just not practical enough to be successful. The only way I could see it working would be if they made the iBook so extremely cute that no self-respecting business-person could ever use one in public. Until such a thing happens I don't see there being enough of a demand to make it profitable.

Welcome home, Escher .

- Pook

[quote]Originally posted by nonhuman:
<strong>

I agree, I think a sub-PowerBook would probably end up being another cube: a great idea that lots of people love, but just not practical enough to be successful. The only way I could see it working would be if they made the iBook so extremely cute that no self-respecting business-person could ever use one in public. Until such a thing happens I don't see there being enough of a demand to make it profitable.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Well, a lot of PC makers have been coming out with these, sony, ibm, compaq, etc... it is funny flipping them over and seeing a huge fan bulging out of the bottom though. These notebooks are targeted at businesses and executives as they also tend to look very slick as well. The biggest area of demand would be in Japan; this would be a great way for Apple to boost sales in Japan as their level of integration gives them a boost against all the other sub-notebook makers.

The ibook could come closer if it used titanium rather than that thick polycarbonate.

I would love a sub-powerbook....

I wouldnt make it a major product unless the demand became soo large...

I think apple should let out some limited edition prototypes... just to be cool...

"Sub-PowerBook - Limited", "iPad - Limited Edition"... would sell like hot cakes!

I think a 25th anniversary product is in order... while theres still time...

I think the 12.1" screen is as small as it will get. The iBook's keyboard stretches across the whole machine, and Steve has inveighed against shrunken keyboards before.

HDDs get smaller, though, and optical drives get thinner. I wouldn't be surprised if Apple manages to shave some weight and some thickness off the machine in the next revision. A four pound, 1 inch thick iBook would be pretty sweet, no? Maybe in a stainless-steel and white enclosure like the iPod's?

oooooh.... I can see it right now...

A mini-ibook... that'd be sweet... polished steel....

I wonder if those mini hard drives get very hot? like the ibooks does?....

[quote]Originally posted by ColorClassicG4:
<strong>What would you want them to leave out in order to have a sub-3 lb. portable?</strong><hr></blockquote>

We had a thread on Macnn for a while about how to reduce weight in an iBook. I looked at changing or removing parts. There is not much to be done there. The CD drive is already very light. My conclusion is that the iBook got its current size and weight as a design decision. It is probably very rugged compared to other small notebooks. I'll bet you could toss them around in backpacks, pile other books on them, drop them (not too hard) and they will keep working where other books would simply shatter.

So, if Apple makes a lighter subnote the main thing to go will be strength. It will be very thin (lose the CD mostly for space compression, not weight loss) and not as durable as an iBook.

One possible form factor is that of the Toshiba Libretto. It has a wide LCD (1280 x 760 by memory). This lets it be small and light but still have full size keys.

If the new book uses the new ultra-low power G3 from IBM then it might also save weight on heat sinks and the battery could be smaller and lighter.

One target market would be business and professional people who have full size desktops for their main work but need something small and light for travel (work on airplanes, in hotels, giving presentations, etc.). It could be priced over $1,500. Without a CD it would not take share from the iBook crowd.

A question about Apple's laptop line and market share.

Sometimes people post that Apple can't have something like a subnote as it is too close to the iBook (similar arguments for other products). Yet, how is it that Sony, NEC, Toshiba and others can have three or four sizes of laptops in their lineup? The wintel market is large but there are a lot of players. Their individual shares can't be much larger than Apple's.

Just now I pulled off of a website in Japan a ranking of laptop sales in Japan:

• 1. Fujitsu\tFMVNB890L\tFMV-BIBLO
  2. Sony\tPCG-FX55S/BP\tVaio Note FX
  3. NEC\tLL700/1D\tLaVie L
  4. Apple\tM8599J/A\tiBook G3-600 combo-drive 198,000 yen list
  5. NEC\tLL500/1D\tLaVie L
  6. Sony\tPCG-FX33S/BP\tVaio Note FX
  7. Sony\tPCG-GR5E/BP\tVaio Note GR
  8. Fujitsu\tFMVNB89D\tFMV-BIBLO
  9. Fujitsu\tFMVNB89DR\tFMV-BIBLO
  10. Apple\tM8362J/A\tG4550 Ti-PB 259,800 yen list

<a href="http://www.computernews.com/" target="_blank">http://www.computernews.com/</a> (Japanese only)

This doesn't show individual shares, just the ranking. Only Apple posts a list price, the rest have switched to what they call Open Pricing which lets individual stores set their own price (sort of).

My point is that Apple has two computers in the top ten ranking. That means that lots of companies are getting by on smaller market share than Apple does. So why can't Apple give us more variety in the line up?

Why not have a super high end dual G4 laptop with a huge screen? It would weigh 10 pounds but for some people that would be fit their needs.

Why not have a sub-three pound note at the low end?

[rant]
I'm not advocating going back to the days when there were half a dozen desktops that were virtually indistinguishable. But why not make things that are really different (very heavy, very light, very fast, very inexpensive) from each other and try to cover a wider market?
[/rant]

I came up with this idea recently for a duo-type computer, except it can act as either two computers or one more powerful computer.

The portable component fits into the desktop component, sliding into a slot somewhere on the case and connecting to the desktop with FireWire connectors or something else. Below are the basic specs and the concept of this idea.

Desktop Component

Single processor
100 GB hard drive
All standard ports
Superdrive
AirPort built in

This would have a slot that holds the portable component when they're connected. A button somewhere would eject the portable component when needed. When the portable is not in its slot, a flap would flip up, filling in the gap where it was.

Portable Component

Single processor
10 GB hard drive
1 USB port, 1 FireWire port
Modem, Ethernet
Under 3 lbs
10" - 12" screen

This component is really a subnotebook, it has no optical drive - the built-in Superdrive on the desktop component can be used for that - it has a small screen, and small hard drive. This should enable it to have very good battery life,

Both Together

Dual Processor
Both hard drives mount on desktop

When the computers are together, both processors work together as a dual processor computer. I could see an option to synchronize the portable hard drive with te big one when you connect it, but I don't know.

--

I tried to draw some examples in Illustrator, but alas, I am not good enough (either that or I didn't have the time to make them look any good - you decide ). I'll have to do it the old fashioned way - hand draw them and scan 'em in.

But, yeah, that's my idea. Whatcha think?

It's not EXACTLY a sub-PowerBook, but this is the best thread for it and I didn't want to waste a whole new thread on my silly little idea.

I like that Idea...

Two Computers, Dual processors...

[quote]Originally posted by FERRO:
<strong>I like that Idea...

Two Computers, Dual processors...</strong><hr></blockquote>

I wonder how much the tech development cost will be ....

usually a Dual processor will have 2 identical processor, but a powerbook and a powermac CPU are never "really" identical.

and apple have to solve the problem of how to communicate between 2 processor problem ... with firewire ? USB ? PCMCIA ? Fiber Optics ?

LOL I can't start to imagine the cost of that machine ...

Maybe GIGAWIRE is a small fiber-optic cable....

it would certainly make the digital hub idea easier... one small fiberoptic cable... to connect everything...

... that'd be cool...

[quote]Originally posted by JFW:
<strong>How about solid-state storage, about 15gb.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I can't even begin to tell you how badly I want this. How is it we have not seen more use of solid state storage... cost yes... but I'd rather not think about that.

Lop off the top and half the side of a cdrom. Make it surface mounting. spindle hub exposed on keyboard plane area. small, shuttered/protected lens area for the optics. place it in upper right or upper left corner of the base, with the screen in the up position the disc shoudl slip under the screen'slower left or right corner, and have half of the cd-disc in front of the screen, half behind it. If worried about bumping/damaging, have a little radially-exendable cover that opens the 270 degrees from the corner and aroudn the disk after it is surface mounted - or maybe even just a metal rim that protects the edge for a stylish look.

JRC

I beleive that a sub-powerbook lighter than the iBook would really have to take on a more "tablet" idea. Essentially, a PDA...

But before you shoot me down I think you should think about where computers may be going and I beleive that they should be less desktop-bound, that you can have it in your lap or use it like you would use a clip-board.

3lbs? You would have to eliminate an awful lot unless Apple comes up with a hard disk and battery that are made of aluminum or cheese...

It should be resonably powerful but it would not need to have a terribly strong processor.

I really don't see a market for a tablets. They sound cool, but why would anyone give up their keyboard. I think we all underestimate it's utility. It's basic design, hampered as it is by the qwerty layout, has nonetheless managed to persist for 120 years. It's that good. Even a crappy index, middle and thumb typist (like me) can manage over 30 words a minute -- faster than all but the fastest writers.

It might be useful for looking at info, a kind of very interactive eBook, but you'll still want to plug in a keyboard when you have a lot of writing to do. Tablets for the vertical market -- used with easily navigated forms, tables, etc... make good sense, but pen recognition doesn't make a great substitute for a keyboard. Typing is just faster.

I'm going to try thinking outside the box here. Bear with me.
How about this: Since the problem is the keyboard, detach the keyboard. You're left with a 10" screen (Down, Belle! Down! Not a tablet!) a picture-frame stand, a Sahara processor, a RADEON Mobility (ATi doesn't even make the Rage 128 anymore...) and either a 5GB or 10GB Toshiba drive, and 128MB of RAM (upgradeable) and a replaceable, hot-swappable "Lion" battery. That would be hardly larger than the LCD itself. Shockmount the LCD and wrap the whole thing in Lexan for durability.

Now for the fun part, which I admit is radical enough that there's a snowball's chance in hell that Apple will implement it - but hell, it's fun. The supplied keyboard would be one of those one-handed chorded keyboards, attached to a 3 foot USB cable, with a thumb mouse. You could put the screen on a desk or tray table, or hold it like a book, and type with your arm resting in a natural position. You could put the screen in a sleeve or briefcase and keep the keyboard in your pocket. The major disadvantage would be the learning curve associated with the keyboard, and that's a big disadvantage. But if it was done right, it would be much more ergonomic than a conventional clamshell design, and you could use it standing up. Given the USB connection, you could also plug in a standard keyboard and mouse if you preferred. Maybe Apple could offer an ultralight keyboard as an option - basically the iBook model with a frame behind it and a trackpad.

Now, of course, this thing would be sync'd and charged over FireWire (AirPort would be nice, but it's a battery killer - and the LCD will already be taxing the battery). You could have a special folder on your main machine that would be sync'd up with the device every time you connected.

That's total pie-in-the-sky handwaving, I know, but who's up in the clouds with me? Anyone?

[ 11-15-2001: Message edited by: Amorph ]</p>

Hmm Amorph, you crazy cat.

I give your proposal an 8/10 for coolness.

The chorded keyboard, however, would be a tough sell as a "subNoteThing for the rest of us".

I would think that would be harder to hold and type with than a regular laptop where everything is together. The keyboard would have to snap into place on the screen when you want to use it as a laptop, as holding two pieces on your lap while typing could be cumbersome.

That's the one place where it would be a bit more awkward, but only with a conventional keyboard. With the chorded keyboard you'd just rest the monitor in your lap and your typing hand could be wherever you wanted it.