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Early build of Windows 8 suggests cross-platform OS to compete with Apple's iOS - Page 2

post #41 of 74
Balmer says- "Whatever device you use...Windows will be there."

Translation - "a pig in every pot"
post #42 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by fecklesstechguy View Post

2. If M/soft can successfully get consumers to embrace the cloud they could conceivably light-load the OS on the device(s) which then set the connection to the cloud for the interface and other hardware configuration parameters - esssentially the Google Chrome OS approach - and only the elements ported for a given device config and interface are loaded.

Synchronization with the Cloud is definitely going to be baked directly into Win 8, however at the moment the presumption is that they will leverage their existing Windows Live properties...

I can't see Microsoft doing something as huge as shifting most of the Windows 8 client side to the cloud... but anything is possible I suppose
post #43 of 74
Windows should be made available on <a href="http://www.bookase.com/">cheap textbooks</a>
post #44 of 74
Hardly a surprise Microsoft is going down this path. Years ago, computers meant desktops and servers. Over time, it's expanded to laptops, phones, tablets, who know what might be next?

I think MS are keen to go this route not so much because Apple has (clearly they must think Apple has taken the right approach) but because they don't want to lose their OEM customers. The iPhone and iPad are one thing and no question both have hurt Microsoft. Neither will put MS out of business, though. The bigger threat is if they lose their current established base. HP's move to WebOS was the real shot fired across the bow of Microsoft's ship. If Microsoft doesn't plug that leak soon they will be in trouble.

Some people seem to be asking why you'd want an app to run on multiple form factors? The best successful example is Safari. Microsoft needs to revamp their whole OS so that applications can be created under Windows which are portable the way Safari, Mail, iCal, etc. are portable. I don't think they have that today but need it badly to keep things like WebOS from taking over some form factors.
post #45 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I get the eventual move to get a desktop OS on ARM but I can’t fathom that even MS would still think that a desktop OS on a tablet makes sense.

Yep, easier said than done. It is all in the compiler. Some have speculated that Apple actually has a secret windows port compiler that they use for iTunes, QuickTime and Safari. There has also been some speculation that no one at Microsoft actually understands the core code of Windows since Simonyi left.

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post #46 of 74
At the most basic level, this is Microsoft doing what Apple already did with MacOS X. Instead of building different OSs from different hardware it builds one core OS (Windows 8 or MacOS X) and then builds what is needed for the different user interfaces on top of that (Windows 8 tablet/phone or iOS). The benefit is that you aren't multiplying the work of maintaining the trickiest stuff (kernel, new hardware support) and can focus on the differences in UI and higher level features.

That's my impression, though I'm seeing from posts some other more specific ideas like make App bundles (also a MacOS X thing, though not uniquely so).

With this and recent Adobe news, I'm loving it. The new hardware trends like cooler Smart Phones and Tablets that Apple and Google are championing are stirring up the innovation and fight-for-your-life work ethic in some behemoth companies that haven't had to do much to profit lately. Good for everyone, so far.
post #47 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Firefly7475 View Post

You want different UI's for different devices. Sometimes the functionality of the app will be totally different (as with Photoshop), sometimes it will be the same, but most of the time at least some of the functionality is the same and can benefit from shared code.

Why do you guys keep on mentioning "Photoshop"... as if that hog of a program, along with all Adobe products (lets add Autodesk stuff too)... will set the bar whether the OS is useful/successful or not.

Anyone want to take a guess at what THE most popular suite on a MS machine is? And if they get ONLY that right, it would be a success in their eyes, and a large amount of their enterprise clients.

I abhor MS... but please... be a little bit more objective and imaginative of what's important for MS right now, as they're slowly sliding into the black hole.
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post #48 of 74
Quote:
in early builds of Windows 8, this Ribbon UI is only half-finished and, frankly, of dubious value

Experiencing the difference in UI between Office '03 and Office '07 I'd always figured the ribbon interface was more or less a gesture of surrender to the competition (google apps et. al.) by MS. What else could such a 90° turn in usability represent?

Does this mean the same for Windows?

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post #49 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by brentbordelon View Post

Whatever happened to chess players?

Microsoft, like a chess player who has resorted to pure defense, needs to drastically change their strategy or quit, because you cannot win by playing defense only.

ALL Microsoft does anymore is play catch up. All of their "new" products, technologies, and strategies are designed to compete with (read, catch up to) someone else's dominant lead.

Like a chess player who makes no attempt at offense, eventually they will spend all their time and resources defending what they have, all the while losing a piece here, an advantage there.

Nice post! Up to a point...

It's close to what I was just going to write, in that if MS had any balls... instead of Ballmers... they would tell enterprise to go suck it!

"Go ahead and stay with WinXP and all of your legacy stuff... we're moving forward with or with out you. We are NOT going to let our business wither away waiting for you guys, because it's evident you're on some sort of 20-year upgrade cycle, that we can not survive catering to."

With the reply of "bite me"... in return: "your biting yourselves just fine without any help from us".

Besides... who are all of these legacy businesses going to turn to? Google? Yeah right!

Quote:
And don't get me started about Gartner. Why, oh WHY does anyone listen to anything they have to say?

For 20+ years I (and most people I know) have been *at least* as accurate as they are in guessing what the future holds - and that advice is free.


Speaking of free, I just created a new motto for them - for free:

Gartner.
Selling guesses for lots of money to CEOs who have heard their name.

Actually Gartner is probably correct, because Nokia will be adding WinMo to all of their phones shortly, and Nokia holds a huge share of world-wide market-share. WinMo will replace "feature phones".

* I actually liked Windows server products, NT4 and Win2000, and XP certainly wasn't all that bad. But over the last 6-7 years, just one misstep after another, and keeping that nasty legacy crap-registry clean (among other things), is time I use these days making money with Apple products
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post #50 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Firefly7475 View Post

ARM Windows 8 running the desktop UI makes zero sense to me.

I don't know how the sales figures are now (I assume they have been seriously impacted by iPad), but if netbooks still sell in any volume, you could see the argument for having Windows running on ARM instead of using the Atom which seems to be in most of those things.
post #51 of 74
Microsoft doing what they do best... Copying
post #52 of 74
If I understand it correctly, the Objective C backend for iOS does not support garbage collection, whereas the Objective C backend for Mac OS does support garbage collection as an option. The point I am making here is that, even the 'core OS' underneath iOS is tailored, even though the OSs have many shared components.

I think the comments about UIs serving different purposes is spot on. It makes no sense to merge touch and the mouse pointer. The accuracy required is different.

If it is really true that MS wants to create an overall scalable structure across such a wide range of devices…well, I am awaiting to be impressed. IMO, it is an overly ambitious goal. MS already is weighed down by excessive complexity in its code base.

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post #53 of 74
so what this is really saying is that MS is trying to copy Apple...... again?
post #54 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Firefly7475 View Post

That's not even remotely accurate. It's basically the opposite.

This is Microsoft accepting that you can't shoe-horn the Windows UI into every device (like they tried to with tablets and phones for a decade) and that each different device has a different user experience demands a custom UI built for it.

That is not what I mean.
To Microsoft, everything looks like a PC.

I can't wait to defrag my Windows tablet's C\ drive, reboot my tablet every patch Tuesday and fix registry errors. Which antivirus package should I get? Oh crap, the last patch broke one of my programs. Oh, there are 2 different copies of this DLL floating around in separate directories. I see what happened: my PATH variable was changed by the last program I installed. Hmm...should I uninstall this shared component? The uninstaller says no other program is using it... Ah, the full Windows experience on a tablet. I can't wait

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post #55 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post

That is not what I mean.
To Microsoft, everything looks like a PC.

I can't wait to defrag my Windows tablet's C\ drive, reboot my tablet every patch Tuesday and fix registry errors. Which antivirus package should I get? Oh crap, the last patch broke one of my programs. Oh, there are 2 different copies of this DLL floating around in separate directories. I see what happened: my PATH variable was changed by the last program I installed. Hmm...should I uninstall this shared component? The uninstaller says no other program is using it... Ah, the full Windows experience on a tablet. I can't wait

Spoken like someone who hasn't laid a finger on a Windows Phone 7 device. I challenge you to try it - the OS is far more polished, far more stable and far more reliable than iOS ever has been.

If Microsoft is planning to build on this for future devices, then count me in as a potential customer.
post #56 of 74
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post #57 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by neiltc13 View Post

Spoken like someone who hasn't laid a finger on a Windows Phone 7 device. I challenge you to try it - the OS is far more polished, far more stable and far more reliable than iOS ever has been.

If Microsoft is planning to build on this for future devices, then count me in as a potential customer.

I can't say I've used a Windows Phone 7 a lot, but what I have seen of it has impressed me a lot. I don't know about more stable than iOS, since I've never had a stability problem with iOS, but I liked the UI of WP7. I think it shows some interesting things and seems like a fairly nice halfway house between the anarchy of an Android UI, and the rigid simplicity of iOS.

Personally I wish Microsoft well with it. I've been using Windows 7 in Parallels a lot of late and think that's not too bad. I wouldn't say they have caught up with Apple, but I'm happy to see them getting close, if only because I believe it will spur Apple onto greater things.
post #58 of 74
The "windows everywhere" strategy is laughable. I'd be pretty pissed off if I was a MS shareholder, this is exactly the same kind of poor thinking that caused windows for tablets/phones to fail up to this point. Now it looks like they're pulling out again, as if they don't know what else to do.

Microsoft needs the balls to scrap windows and start over. Windows is no longer a quality product brand– for most people it stands for viruses and spyware, everything people are moving to iPads to get away from.
post #59 of 74
My apologies if its already been pointed out, but have you see the Windows App Store for Windows 8. There is something familiar about this but I just cant put my finger on it.

(click for large image)
http://www.zdnet.com/blog/igeneratio...ke-apples/9395
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post #60 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by enjourni View Post

The "windows everywhere" strategy is laughable. I'd be pretty pissed off if I was a MS shareholder, this is exactly the same kind of poor thinking that caused windows for tablets/phones to fail up to this point. Now it looks like they're pulling out again, as if they don't know what else to do.

Microsoft needs the balls to scrap windows and start over. Windows is no longer a quality product brand for most people it stands for viruses and spyware, everything people are moving to iPads to get away from.

You appear to be describing the Windows of 2004. It's now 2011, and Microsoft is really kicking ass with great products in every area they are involved in. The latest versions of Office and Windows are easily the best they've ever produced and the (relatively) new products like Xbox and Zune are fantastic as well.

If they can get the marketing right, then there's no reason why Microsoft cannot catch Apple in the areas where they are currently behind.
post #61 of 74
This makes sense to me, if you look at the different tablet designs coming out that basically turn from a desktop into a tablet then having an os that does the same makes sense. I even had someone tell me last week there prefered case for an iPad is one with a keyboard on one side and the iPad on the other, which kinda makes it a laptop.

Anyway there will still be tablet apps and desktop apps, simple reason, sell 2 apps!

There's also a very simple reason for the windows everywhere strategy, windows sells for $40 - $80, windows embedded sells for 5 - 30. If ballmer did anything that could harm windows he could be liable to the shareholders for it.
post #62 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

My apologies if its already been pointed out, but have you see the Windows App Store for Windows 8. There is something familiar about this but I just cant put my finger on it.

(click for large image)
http://www.zdnet.com/blog/igeneratio...ke-apples/9395

Your right it looks like every other screen in windows!
post #63 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by kilimanjaro View Post

So they (Microsoft / MS) plan to defeat iOS and Mac OS is to make a Windows OS that will be used in every devices they can get their hands on.. Yup, it's Windows everywhere alrite.. We're doomed if this truly come true..


Just imagine. Every Windows 8 device user gets to experience the BSOD on every screen they own. All that productivity will drive AAPL out of business.
post #64 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by neiltc13 View Post

You appear to be describing the Windows of 2004. It's now 2011, and Microsoft is really kicking ass with great products in every area they are involved in. The latest versions of Office and Windows are easily the best they've ever produced and the (relatively) new products like Xbox and Zune are fantastic as well.

If they can get the marketing right, then there's no reason why Microsoft cannot catch Apple in the areas where they are currently behind.

Yeah, that's what MSFT needs is more marketing. Seriously, the "Zune"? Are you a comedian?
post #65 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Dodel View Post

Yeah, that's what MSFT needs is more marketing. Seriously, the "Zune"? Are you a comedian?

Just out of interest, what parts of the Zune didn't you like?
post #66 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Firefly7475 View Post

Just out of interest, what parts of the Zune didn't you like?

Brown? Who wants a tech toy that looks like a turd? What were they thinking? A crappy knockoff of the iPod. How can you in any honesty call that POS "fantastic"?
post #67 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

My apologies if its already been pointed out, but have you see the Windows App Store for Windows 8. There is something familiar about this but I just cant put my finger on it.

(click for large image)
http://www.zdnet.com/blog/igeneratio...ke-apples/9395

I seriously hope that one ends up being fake.

For starters calling it an "App Store" is pretty stupid. Microsoft has always had the Marketplace, which can sell a lot of different things.

They could have an "Apps" section of the Marketplace, but it doesn't really make sense to have an "App Store" section of the Marketplace.

The image also has a "sign on" link, which doesn't fit in with the Windows 8 cloud integration. The idea is that each Windows login is linked to a Windows Live account... so when the user logs in they get access to their data and apps.

The idea of needed to "sign on" to the "App Store" breaks the tight cloud integration they are trying to achieve with Windows 8.

The third problem (and probably the biggest one) is that Microsoft already have two separate "Marketplaces" for Windows.

The "Games for Windows" Marketplace has been up and running for 18 months. The design is far more slick than the "Windows App Store", fits in closer with the Metro design and is distinctly Microsoft.



The second is the Zune client, which is basically a beacon of "new age" Microsoft design. This shows how I think Microsoft should integrate multiple sections (Videos, Music, Games, Apps for Windows, Apps for WP7 etc) into the same client.





Microsoft needs the one integrated Media Hub. Zune would be the best choice, but since they already have had an "App Store" running successfully in the "Games for Windows" Marketplace for 18 months they could look to it for inspiration as well.

The "Windows App Store" above looks pretty much like a bastardized Windows Media Player... something the "old school" Microsoft would create.

The last thing they need is yet another separate application for managing purchases and content.
post #68 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Dodel View Post

Brown? Who wants a tech toy that looks like a turd? What were they thinking?

So the color is the only problem you had with it?

What about the audio quality (it was a PMP after all)? Did you have any problems with that?

What about the software? What are you thoughts on how it handles media, playlists, synchronization and streaming?
post #69 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Firefly7475 View Post

I seriously hope that one ends up being fake.

For starters calling it an "App Store" is pretty stupid. Microsoft has always had the Marketplace, which can sell a lot of different things.

They could have an "Apps" section of the Marketplace, but it doesn't really make sense to have an "App Store" section of the Marketplace.

I agree and I think MS might agree, too, but I dont think its fake. They could be just setting up a precedence in their inevitable fight to keep Apple from being the sole proprietor of anything labeled App Store.
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post #70 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by neiltc13 View Post

Spoken like someone who hasn't laid a finger on a Windows Phone 7 device. I challenge you to try it - the OS is far more polished, far more stable and far more reliable than iOS ever has been.

If Microsoft is planning to build on this for future devices, then count me in as a potential customer.

No, spoken like a person who has been using Windows-based tablets going back to the days of Windows 3.11 for Pen Computing. And yes, I've even used Dell latest tablets running Windows 7: it is just lipstick on a pig: a prettier version of very complex, bloated, legacy OS that had its roots as a DOS task switcher. This is what Microsoft wants to put on future tablets: Windows, not "Windows Phone".

Hey, how do I enter Safe Mode on a tablet? Will the tablets have a F8 key? Because, you know, that just makes so much sense on a tablet.

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post #71 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post

No, spoken like a person who has been using Windows-based tablets going back to the days of Windows 3.11 for Pen Computing. And yes, I've even used Dell latest tablets running Windows 7: it is just lipstick on a pig: a prettier version of very complex, bloated, legacy OS that had its roots as a DOS task switcher. This is what Microsoft wants to put on future tablets: Windows, not "Windows Phone".

Hey, how do I enter Safe Mode on a tablet? Will the tablets have a F8 key? Because, you know, that just makes so much sense on a tablet.



I know you're just being facetious, but just for kicks

On Windows Server 2008...
  • I've never actually had to defrag. I'm pretty sure it still happens, it's just automatic. Also defrag isn't required at all on SSD's as Windows supports TRIM.
  • I've never had a patch break a program
  • I've never had to decide on an antivirus
  • I've never had a problem with incompatible DLLs. SxS has been around for a very long time now.
  • I've certainly never edited my PATH! I think the last time I manually edited the PATH was a decade ago setting up the command line Java compiler.
  • I've never had to hit the F8 key on boot
  • I've never had to enter safe mode (I'm not even sure it's there!!)

I've can't recall ever being asked about a shared component, although I know that still exists because it's a function of each individual uninstaller, not of Windows itself.

Also updates have been installed... although this isn't so different to my iPhone and iPad, apart from the fact that Windows Server 2008 just updates over-the-air automatically and my iDevices... well, you know the process.

My point being when you have a version of Windows pre-installed and configured by the OEM with the drivers provided (like Windows Server) and you only install quality certified software (like you will get from the Marketplace) you don't see a lot of the problems people experience when running hacked together custom systems with mountains of shit programs installed running in the background and embeding themselves into the system.
post #72 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by magicj View Post

This really strikes me as a poor idea.

● Why would I want to run a scaled down phone app on a desktop computer?
● Why would I want to include the overhead needed to scale up to the desktop in an app meant to run on a phone?
● Why would I want to write a tablet app that required a mouse?

Phones, tablets, and true computers are three very different devices with very different usage patterns. Trying to shoehorn everything into one way of doing things is probably not the way to go.

This is exactly what Apple is doing, though they provide it through 2 development platforms rather than 1, but at the core the apps are all based on the same code (thus we have Angry Birds for Desktop). It is actually what Microsoft has to do if they hope to compete, obviously there will be differences in apps ported for desktop vs mobile device.

I'm no Microsoft fan but don't criticize just for the sake of hating on Microsoft.
post #73 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

My apologies if its already been pointed out, but have you see the Windows App Store for Windows 8. There is something familiar about this but I just cant put my finger on it.

Ubuntu's software store
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post #74 of 74
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