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Regardless of whether war is right, unilateral action is wrong. - Page 4

post #121 of 369
Iraq will attack first if they are smart..... then we will destroy them
post #122 of 369
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by running with scissors
any bets when this little shindig is going to kick off?
i'm betting 3:00am wed morning. any takers?

You guys are sick. Is this a game to you? "This little shindig"?

[edit - profanity is out of line, but you can be sure what was originally written here was a representation of my disgust for a complete and utter lack of respect for the value of human life and the consequences of a globally condemned, arguably unprovoked action]

This "little shindig" is going to cost lives. It's going to turn MY COUNTRY, THE COUNTRY THAT I LOVE into a far greater target for terrorism than ever. Probably forever. Americans will die on American and on foreign soil because of this. It will last years and Americans will die. Diplomacy has failed. America will be looked down on by the rest of the world for decades to come from this. America will have less to put on the trade table because of this.

This "little shindig" is going to mean world war. Maybe not in the conventional sense. It's the new war. A perpetual, relentless wave of terrorism never before seen. This is going to make 9-11 look like Granada.
post #123 of 369
I just wanted to say how awesome it is that so many people care about these things.

It really seems like many more people are taking notice of what their country and government are doing.
post #124 of 369
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by applenut
Iraq will attack first if they are smart..... then we will destroy them

How the heck would that be smart?

If Iraq were smart (and I bet they're smarter than some people think) they will have secretly destroyed any remaining WOMD and concentrate all of their efforts on catching invading forces trying to frame them with planted evidence. Almost impossible, but that's exactly what they'll have to do. Because Bush will plant WOMD. If Bush goes to war and no WOMD are found then Bush (and at this point, unfortunately, America) will look no better than Bin Laden. He can not and will not take that risk.

If Bush doesn't find any WOMD it's over for the US. Bush has condemned us all.

If Bush does find WOMD (planted or not) we may look fine in the eyes of some of our dumber allies, but we'll still look like villains to the Arab world, and be hated as "arrogant" by almost everyone else. But Bush will be hailed by the ignorant American masses.

I can never be proud of being American again. Every time someone asks where I'm from I'll be hesitant to tell them the truth (incidentally, 99% of the people I meet are not American and 90% of those will hate Americans after this). I am ashamed to be associated with a country that thinks it IS God.

If Iraq wants to save Bush's ass then they will attack first. they couldn't possibly be that stupid.
post #125 of 369
Thread Starter 
Read Cook's resignation. Absolutely brilliantly put. I wish Amerca had leaders with that kind of resolve and intelligence.

Pertaining to the collapse of international treaties and "rules":

History will be astonished at the diplomatic miscalculations which led so quickly to the disintegration of that powerful coalition [of diplomatic cooperation].

Pertaining to the illogical argument that war is a "necessity":

Some advocates of conflict claim [Saddam's] forces are now so weak, so demoralised, so badly-equipped, that the war will be over in a few days. We cannot base our military strategy on the assumption that Saddam is weak and at the same time justify pre-emptive action on the claim that he is a threat.

There are more great bits. Read it. It's been called the best resignation speech ever in British history and is unprecedented in the applause it received in the House of Commons.
post #126 of 369
Quote:
Originally posted by tonton

I can never be proud of being American again. Every time someone asks where I'm from I'll be hesitant to tell them the truth (incidentally, 99% of the people I meet are not American and 90% of those will hate Americans after this). I am ashamed to be associated with a country that thinks it IS God.

Then tell people you're Canadian

Seriously.......this is making a lot of American feel ashame of themselve
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post #127 of 369
I'm not sure how brilliant it is to remove yourself from a position of power because you oppose the entrusted powers. It only puts your further away from a position which allows you to make a difference.

Oh, no, wait. BRILLIANT!

As for the rules. Why did Clinton get to play with a deadline, while Bush doesn't? Why didn't they set a deadline this time? There's a blatant double-standard here.
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post #128 of 369
Quote:
Originally posted by running with scissors
any bets when this little shindig is going to kick off?
i'm betting 3:00am wed morning. any takers?

I can't imagine Bush waiting much more than 48 hours, or else he would have said 72. But the time difference makes it tough to start Wed night/Thurs morning. You can't well launch the cruise missles before the deadline passes, but assuming they take a couple hours to reach their targets, they wouldn't start hitting until past dawn Thusday morning (8pm EST Wed = 4am Baghdad Thurs).

So that suggests Thursday night, prime time here in the USA.

Unless he does the militarily smart (and politically awkward) thing and starts the bombs dropping an hour before the deadline passes.

Does anyone else have a flight booked for Thursday? I made plans to visit my girlfriend in St. Louis for the weekend, leaving Thursday morning. Damn inconvenient of the President to set a deadline for Wed night. I'm not sure I want to be on a plane the day war breaks out. But then, the terrorists will presumably wait until the bombs start dropping, and such things take a couple days to pull together. I guess I'll wait and see when things start.
post #129 of 369
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Eugene
I'm not sure how brilliant it is to remove yourself from a position of power because you oppose the entrusted powers. It only puts your further away from a position which allows you to make a difference.

Oh, no, wait. BRILLIANT!

As for the rules. Why did Clinton get to play with a deadline, while Bush doesn't? Why didn't they set a deadline this time? There's a blatant double-standard here.

The power comes with the statement. Cook will be listened to, and adored by the (majority) UK public who oppose Blair's stance. His day will come with this.
post #130 of 369
Quote:
Originally posted by tonton
The power comes with the statement. Cook will be listened to, and adored by the (majority) UK public who oppose Blair's stance. His day will come with this.

I'll be waiting with bated breath.
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post #131 of 369
[QUOTE]Originally posted by BR
Quote:
Originally posted by Scott:
<strong>

Biggest? What about France and Holland? Not to mention neoemerpialists like Russia and China?</strong><hr></blockquote>

France and Holland don't come close to England, Spain, or Portugal...nor do China or Russia. Open a history book, will ya?

Seems like your the one that needs to open it. Holland? You do realize that Rotterdam is still the largest port in the world. They used to be all over the world. You can crack open that history book you have to look up a place called "New Amsterdam".

France? Shit dude look at who we bought most of the mid west from. Great numbers of Africans speak French. I wonder why, der?. Look up in that history book who got us into Vietnam?

Russia? Yea as in former Soviet Union. As in used to control all of eastern Europe. As in took over most of the 'stans including the Afghan one. As in sold us all of Alaska. As in open up that history book of yours and start reading.

China? Well not nearly as big as the rest but ask the Dalai Lama__if he'd like his country back. I think he does.

Good luck.
post #132 of 369
From the site that groverat linked to refute someone's claim that the economy wasn't in best shape:

today:


last 13 Weeks:


last year:


Losses in red ink, what an appropriate image.
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post #133 of 369
[QUOTE]Originally posted by ColanderOfDeath
[quote]Groverat is sleeping with Scott_h_Phd.<hr></blockquote>

Quote:
Groverat, sometimes it's like you've a great big turnip stuck up your arse! <hr></blockquote>

Can we safely deduce from these statements that Scott's phallus is shaped like a great big turnip?

Stay nice , please, these pornographics comment may hurt people.
post #134 of 369
Powerdoc can fix the problems the turnip-shaped phallus, he is a professional. When 'doc is through Milton Berle will have nothing on you.
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post #135 of 369
Quote:
Originally posted by stupider...likeafox
From the site that groverat linked to refute someone's claim that the economy wasn't in best shape:

And the graphics show that the Dow is still down about 25%. Thanks!
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post #136 of 369
This isn't difficult.

I linked to the site to show that the uncertainty about war was hurting the stock market. NO MORE THAN THAT.

Jesus, people, let's get our heads in order.
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post #137 of 369
Quote:
Originally posted by tonton
You guys are sick. Is this a game to you? "This little shindig"?

FUCK YOU.

This "little shindig" is going to cost lives. It's going to turn MY COUNTRY, THE COUNTRY THAT I LOVE into a far greater target for terrorism than ever. Probably forever. Americans will die on American and on foreign soil because of this. It will last years and Americans will die. Diplomacy has failed. America will be looked down on by the rest of the world for decades to come from this. America will have less to put on the trade table because of this.

This "little shindig" is going to mean world war. Maybe not in the conventional sense. It's the new war. A perpetual, relentless wave of terrorism never before seen. This is going to make 9-11 look like Granada.

you need to unclinch your nut sack and take some prozac. in case you haven't noticed, we have been targets for terrorism for some time now and will continue to be, no matter what we do. get over it. so what do we do, sit back and wait for the rest of the world to get their shit together and do something about it? wait on the UN? no thanks, we see how fast the UN moves on issues, if they move at all. we've gone down the diplomatic path on this for over 12 years, it hasn't worked and saddam is still making a mockery of every effort made. so spare us your knee-jerk reactions regarding world war and and all that, because it's rubish.
post #138 of 369
[QUOTE]Originally posted by running with scissors
Quote:
Originally posted by ShawnPatrickJoyce:
<strong>This war is wrong. The arguments for this war are wrong because containment is working. Inspections are working. This finger wagging condescension of the United States at the United Nations is childish and must stop immediately because the United States is wrong.</strong><hr></blockquote>

what a convincing argument you make. i'll be sure to pass that on to the prez next time we have tea. it used to be beers, but you know how that went. bummer too, cause he sure was a whole lot more fun when he was drinking.

What a convincing rebuttal you make. I'll be sure to pass that on to France, Germany, Russia, and all the other countries that agree with me. bummer too, cause war was a whole lot funner without this pesky united nations thing.
post #139 of 369
Containment kills tens of thousands of Iraqis every year.
I guess it's "working".
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post #140 of 369
Quote:
Originally posted by groverat
Containment kills tens of thousands of Iraqis every year.
I guess it's "working".

Well then you should have been rallying to make Bush and Bubba before him vote intelligently on the sanctions rather than letting them fester.
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post #141 of 369
unilateral:

US
UK
Albania
Portugal
Spain
Italy
Poland
Australia
Denmark
Latvia
Lithuania
Hungary
Romania
Bulgaria
Macedonia
Croatia
Bosnia
Montenegro
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post #142 of 369
Quote:
Originally posted by groverat
This isn't difficult.
I linked to the site to show that the uncertainty about war was hurting the stock market. NO MORE THAN THAT.

You should be more specific. How are we supposed to arrive at that interpretation of your dismissive response to the following quote that consisted of one word, one item of punctuation and a link to an irrelevant article:
Quote:
Just think about it. . . CNN spending all day covering the slow and agonizing implosion of the U.S. economy would not be good news for this son-of-a-Bush.

This is true whatever the markets think about war.

My opinion, beware the dead cat bounce and anyone that claims to explain why the stock market has moved in a particular direction over the short term.
Quote:
"One of the most vivid, if a bit indelicate, word pictures painted by the bears on oil comes from Raymond F. DeVoe Jr. at the investment firm of Legg Mason Wood Walker. DeVoe suggests the printing of a bumper sticker reading: 'Beware the Dead Cat Bounce.'

'This applies to stocks or commodities that have gone into free-fall descent and then rallied briefly,' he says.

'If you threw a dead cat off a 50-story building, it might bounce when it hit the sidewalk. But don't confuse that bounce with renewed life. It is still a dead cat.' "
Chet Currier, "Looking for the Bottom in Oil Stocks," The Associated Press
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post #143 of 369
Quote:
Originally posted by bunge
Well then you should have been rallying to make Bush and Bubba before him vote intelligently on the sanctions rather than letting them fester.

Should have? Should have?

Does anything past really matter now? Bush should've done this, Bush Sr. should have done that... how about Iraq should have complied with U.N. sanctions??? They've had 12 years to do so. Give peace a chance! We've been trying to give peace a chance for the last 12 years. War is an absolute last resort. Nobody wants war. But that's what Saddam's let this come to.
post #144 of 369
Quote:
Originally posted by tonton
How the heck would that be smart?

If Iraq were smart (and I bet they're smarter than some people think) they will have secretly destroyed any remaining WOMD and concentrate all of their efforts on catching invading forces trying to frame them with planted evidence. Almost impossible, but that's exactly what they'll have to do. Because Bush will plant WOMD. If Bush goes to war and no WOMD are found then Bush (and at this point, unfortunately, America) will look no better than Bin Laden. He can not and will not take that risk.

If Bush doesn't find any WOMD it's over for the US. Bush has condemned us all.

If Bush does find WOMD (planted or not) we may look fine in the eyes of some of our dumber allies, but we'll still look like villains to the Arab world, and be hated as "arrogant" by almost everyone else. But Bush will be hailed by the ignorant American masses.

I can never be proud of being American again. Every time someone asks where I'm from I'll be hesitant to tell them the truth (incidentally, 99% of the people I meet are not American and 90% of those will hate Americans after this). I am ashamed to be associated with a country that thinks it IS God.

If Iraq wants to save Bush's ass then they will attack first. they couldn't possibly be that stupid.

Wow.

1. "If Iraq were smart (and I bet they're smarter than some people think) they will have secretly destroyed any remaining WOMD and concentrate all of their efforts on catching invading forces trying to frame them with planted evidence."

---not going to happen. Also, they should first destroy all their weapons, then make it look as if we are planting evidence? What? Whose side are you on?

2. "Because Bush will plant WOMD. If Bush goes to war and no WOMD are found then Bush (and at this point, unfortunately, America) will look no better than Bin Laden. He can not and will not take that risk."

OMFG. You have no evidence that Bush will "plant" weapons. Saddam has already armed his forces in southern Iraq with these weapons. They are THERE. For God's own sake, you are blind. And...America will look no better than bin laden? What kind of thinking is this? you mean we will delibrately try to kill civilians? No.

3. "I can never be proud of being American again. Every time someone asks where I'm from I'll be hesitant to tell them the truth (incidentally, 99% of the people I meet are not American and 90% of those will hate Americans after this). I am ashamed to be associated with a country that thinks it IS God"

It is amazing you feel like this. Let me ask you...if not the US, then who? We are the only nation on Earth with the resources to take this guy out. Inspections have failed. I say again...FAILED. Sanctions, limited military strikes...everything else has failed. You cannot possibly be arguing that we DON'T disarm him, can you? Are you really arguing for containment? Head-in-the-sand liberals like you think the same way: "If Bush hadn't pushed this it wouldn't be a problem". Newsflash It WOULD be a problem. It would just be that no one would be paying attention to it, just as it was ignored for 8 years in the 1990's. Saddam would still be there with his weapons, pursuing nukes and chemical agents at will. There would be NO inspectors. Bush is the reason the world will finally get rid of this madman. Without his insistence on disarmerment, the UN would have NEVER have sent inspectors back in.

I for one am more proud than ever to be an American. We finally have a President that has the BALLS to do what needs to be done. You can pretend that Saddam is not a threat all you want. Just because it isn;t on the news doesn't mean it isn't happening. Go ahead...go back your little pre-9/11 world, where the US has no effective response to terror and madman because it is afraid of how that response might look. You feel badly about being an American? I feel bad for those that have had to live with Saddam for their whole lives.



All I hear is "Bush will...." and "Bush's war" and "Bush, Bush, Bush". HJave you forgotten this list of nations that goverate posted:

US
UK
Albania
Portugal
Spain
Italy
Poland
Australia
Denmark
Latvia
Lithuania
Hungary
Romania
Bulgaria
Macedonia
Croatia
Bosnia
Montenegro

I suppose we threatened them all?
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post #145 of 369
Quote:
Originally posted by groverat
unilateral:

Does this list include the countries that would have supported the motion before the UN or the countries that support the notion without a second resolution?

I know that the opinion polls have shown big differences in support for these two options, I imagine governments have similar misgivings.
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post #146 of 369
Quote:
Stay nice , please, these pornographics comment may hurt people.

Oh come on, it was a pretty clean joke. By the community standards that was hardly notable and both of the parties mentioned have and ought to have thick enough skin to take a little prodding.
post #147 of 369
Quote:
Originally posted by SDW2001
Saddam has already armed his forces in southern Iraq with these weapons.

With chemical munitions, no less.
post #148 of 369
Quote:
Originally posted by ShawnPatrickJoyce
What a convincing rebuttal you make. I'll be sure to pass that on to France, Germany, Russia, and all the other countries that agree with me. bummer too, cause war was a whole lot funner without this pesky united nations thing.

aaaah, good old france, germany, and russia. you might want to toss china in there as well. a real swell group of countries who's outstanding moral leadership is beyond reproach. by the way, the UN ceased to be relevent on this issue for some time now.
post #149 of 369
add canada as against US action without UN approval...g
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post #150 of 369
Quote:
Originally posted by Ra
Should have? Should have?

Does anything past really matter now? Bush should've done this, Bush Sr. should have done that... how about Iraq should have complied with U.N. sanctions??? They've had 12 years to do so. Give peace a chance! We've been trying to give peace a chance for the last 12 years. War is an absolute last resort. Nobody wants war. But that's what Saddam's let this come to.

What are you talking about? :confused:
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post #151 of 369
From SDW,


" OMFG. You have no evidence that Bush will "plant" weapons. Saddam has already armed his forces in southern Iraq with these weapons. They are THERE. For God's own sake, you are blind. And...America will look no better than bin laden? What kind of thinking is this? you mean we will delibrately try to kill civilians? No. "



Well a lot of us aren't convinced that Bush is such a honorable guy.
In my book it would be just like him.
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post #152 of 369
Quote:
Originally posted by groverat
unilateral:

u·ni·lat·er·al Audio pronunciation of unilateral ( P ) Pronunciation Key (yn-ltr-l)
adj.

4. Emphasizing or recognizing only one side of a subject.
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post #153 of 369
stupider:

Quote:
You should be more specific.

You're right, I should've been more specific.

Quote:
Does this list include the countries that would have supported the motion before the UN or the countries that support the notion without a second resolution?

Countries that support the US's position. With or without the 2nd resolution.
Correct me if I'm wrong on any of them. Perhaps things have changed.

Quote:
I know that the opinion polls have shown big differences in support for these two options, I imagine governments have similar misgivings.

Who cares about opinion polls?

Add to my list:
Japan
Uzbekistan
Luxemborg
Iceland
Yemen
United Arab Emirates
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post #154 of 369
Quote:
Originally posted by stupider...likeafox
You should be more specific. How are we supposed to arrive at that interpretation of your dismissive response to the following quote that consisted of one word, one item of punctuation and a link to an irrelevant article:

This is true whatever the markets think about war.

My opinion, beware the dead cat bounce and anyone that claims to explain why the stock market has moved in a particular direction over the short term.

I don't want to completely side-track the thread with this but what does the stock market have to do with the war? The economy and stock market were both going down during the election and before Bush even took office. The stock market has been falling for over 3 years. It isn't related to Iraq and our actions on it.

The stock market has fallen for two reasons. One, people believed sky high projections and nonexistant profits for dot coms. Two, companies got away from paying dividends and instead got people to focus on them boosting the stock price by making short term moves that temporarily boosted their profits. Again why would you buy something just because it shows an increase in profits and thus an increase in the likelyhood of paying... you guessed it, dividends.

Except no one ever paid the dividends. Now everyone has realized that the stock they own is just paper that can go up or down on a whim. It doesn't ever add more money to their accounts by virtue of owning it. (again dividends) They decided they didn't like this game and went home with their ball. The truest definition of an asset is that it pays you, it puts money in your pocket. Most companies don't do this and thus they are radically overvalued.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #155 of 369
Quote:
Originally posted by groverat

Add to my list:
Japan
Uzbekistan
Luxemborg
Iceland
Yemen
United Arab Emirates [/B]

you'll probably be able to toss the turkey on there as well sometime soon.
post #156 of 369
Quote:
Originally posted by running with scissors
you'll probably be able to toss the turkey on there as well sometime soon.

And France, eventually.
post #157 of 369
Quote:
Originally posted by Outsider
And France, eventually.

When Rodney King was beaten, there were a lot of peole that agreed with rioting. Does that make it OK?
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post #158 of 369
hahahaha

Dear God those guys crack me up.

That's classic.
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post #159 of 369
Quote:
Originally posted by bunge
What are you talking about? :confused:

Geez, ok... let me clean it up a bit:

Should have? Should have?

Does anything past really matter now? People say, Bush should've done this, Bush Sr. should have done that... but how about, Iraq should have complied with U.N. sanctions??? They've had 12 years to do so. People say, give peace a chance! But we've been trying to give peace a chance for the last 12 years. War is an absolute last resort. Nobody wants war. But that's what Saddam's let this come to.
post #160 of 369
Quote:
Originally posted by groverat
hahahaha

Dear God those guys crack me up.

That's classic.

is that in a jerry lewis kind of way?
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