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United Airlines uses 11,000 iPads to take planes paperless - Page 2

post #41 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bagman View Post

I just flew across country in my private plane, using the ipad as my SOLE source for charts and plates (with backup paper, just in case). Worked beautifully, and flew many instrument approaches without a hitch. Had a charger, but didn't need it, because on the long stretches of straight and level flight, you can easily close the smart cover, to conserve battery power, if you need to, and you don't need to look at the charts except when changes to routes occur, or during takeoffs and landings. Don't forget that the aircraft avionics are doing all the flying, and the ipad is merely used for situational awareness, not for any primary flying. Software is now being tested to bring inflight weather mapping, but commercial planes have radar anyway, so, once again, an ipad enhances safety, and removes the paper chart distractions. Anything that can be done to remove workload is a benefit. I specifically bought the ipad2 to use for flying, and it has been worth every penny.

Who's software package have you been using? I see United are going for Jeppesen, but I believe there are multiple options out there.

I'm about to start flying again after a year out (taildragger training starts in 5 hours!) and was thinking about subscribing to something like this, instead of heading to the pilots shop to update all my charts/AFD etc. I'd appreciate your advice on what you've found, what you like and don't like about it etc.
post #42 of 79
but, but it's just a toy!!!
post #43 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post

Will they have to switch them off completely during take off and landing?

Yes they will.
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post #44 of 79
I don't think this story is quite accurate. There is no airline approved to use the iPad for approach plates. It has to be a ClassIII EFB to be used anytime the aircraft is moving.

Alaska is using is for its company manuals.

So the paper in airline flightdecks isn't quite yet gone.
post #45 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bagman View Post

I just flew across country in my private plane, using the ipad as my SOLE source for charts and plates (with backup paper, just in case). Worked beautifully, and flew many instrument approaches without a hitch. Had a charger, but didn't need it, because on the long stretches of straight and level flight, you can easily close the smart cover, to conserve battery power, if you need to, and you don't need to look at the charts except when changes to routes occur, or during takeoffs and landings. Don't forget that the aircraft avionics are doing all the flying, and the ipad is merely used for situational awareness, not for any primary flying. Software is now being tested to bring inflight weather mapping, but commercial planes have radar anyway, so, once again, an ipad enhances safety, and removes the paper chart distractions. Anything that can be done to remove workload is a benefit. I specifically bought the ipad2 to use for flying, and it has been worth every penny.

Fabulous post. Thank you.
post #46 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by Proximityeffect View Post

but, but it's just a toy!!!

....and it doesn't do Flash!
post #47 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bagman View Post

I just flew across country in my private plane, using the ipad as my SOLE source for charts and plates (with backup paper, just in case). Worked beautifully, and flew many instrument approaches without a hitch. Had a charger, but didn't need it, because on the long stretches of straight and level flight, you can easily close the smart cover, to conserve battery power, if you need to, and you don't need to look at the charts except when changes to routes occur, or during takeoffs and landings. Don't forget that the aircraft avionics are doing all the flying, and the ipad is merely used for situational awareness, not for any primary flying. Software is now being tested to bring inflight weather mapping, but commercial planes have radar anyway, so, once again, an ipad enhances safety, and removes the paper chart distractions. Anything that can be done to remove workload is a benefit. I specifically bought the ipad2 to use for flying, and it has been worth every penny.

Do you use it for pre-flights and maintenance records -- are there apps for that?
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post #48 of 79
United Airlines is a corporation and an enterprise. Apple is a consumer products company. Apple should not sell to enterprise customers. Apple should only sell to small businesses with less than 5 employees.
post #49 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haggar View Post

United Airlines is a corporation and an enterprise. Apple is a consumer products company. Apple should not sell to enterprise customers. Apple should only sell to small businesses with less than 5 employees.



AIR, there are 5 or less people in the cockpit of most planes....


...The wording of your post reminds me of the ad on the TV, where this big guy comes on the screen and says: "I have a small business..."
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post #50 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by Obama View Post

Naah. Not at all,

Bad enough people are driving cars while texting.

And kids are walking down the street bumping into lamp posts while tweeting.

And train operators in California are face booking with rail fans and causing head on collisions.

By all means, let airline pilots play angry birds while flying the plane.

Welcome to the post pc era folks.

Is that all you got? Lame.
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post #51 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by Junebug172 View Post

I don't think this story is quite accurate. There is no airline approved to use the iPad for approach plates. It has to be a ClassIII EFB to be used anytime the aircraft is moving.

Alaska is using is for its company manuals.

So the paper in airline flightdecks isn't quite yet gone.

Actually, we CAN use the iPad for our reference device... we just have to have paper charts available in the cockpit as well (for the time being.)... Once the iPad gets some real-life use under it's belt, I would anticipate the paper requirement to go away as well. After all there will be TWO iPads in the cockpit, so even if one somehow dies, we'll have a second available. (And that paper requirement is only for the navigation charts... the various manuals that we also have to carry will be completely replaced by the iPad almost immediately.)
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post #52 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by punkrocker27ka View Post

does this worry anyone?

I am. Paper does not require recharging.
post #53 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by punkrocker27ka View Post

does this worry anyone?

I just need to know, what is the PHYSICAL BACKUP that is available in planes. As a passenger, that's all I need to know. I'm happy for iPads and what not, thrilled, in fact, but I just need to know the ANALOG BACKUP in place.
post #54 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

Actually, we CAN use the iPad for our reference device... we just have to have paper charts available in the cockpit as well (for the time being.)... Once the iPad gets some real-life use under it's belt, I would anticipate the paper requirement to go away as well. After all there will be TWO iPads in the cockpit, so even if one somehow dies, we'll have a second available. (And that paper requirement is only for the navigation charts... the various manuals that we also have to carry will be completely replaced by the iPad almost immediately.)

Can you explain though what happens if both iPads die? Then you have no manuals, and no navigation charts. What happens then? I'm curious.
post #55 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post

Can you explain though what happens if both iPads die? Then you have no manuals, and no navigation charts. What happens then? I'm curious.

You will have to rely on something called PILOTING SKILLS.

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post #56 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post

Can you explain though what happens if both iPads die? Then you have no manuals, and no navigation charts. What happens then? I'm curious.

If you're worried about two iPads failing at the same time, you're getting down to a probability so low that it would be a statistical fluke. Even so, as Suddenly Newton points out, there's an incredible amount of safety redundancy in commercial aviation.

And if you're still not reassured, then perhaps you need to give up air travel for Amtrak. Of course, the odds of a train derailing while you're aboard are likely much greater than two iPads failing simultaneously.

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post #57 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post

Can you explain though what happens if both iPads die? Then you have no manuals, and no navigation charts. What happens then? I'm curious.

If you're sitting in the back?... You'll never even notice it.

The charts in the iPad (or on paper) are required to be there... They aren't really necessary to fly or navigate or land. While they do make some things easier, it can all be done without them.

(And no... They don't have to be turned off for takeoff and landing. )
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post #58 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

Actually, we CAN use the iPad for our reference device... we just have to have paper charts available in the cockpit as well (for the time being.)... Once the iPad gets some real-life use under it's belt, I would anticipate the paper requirement to go away as well. After all there will be TWO iPads in the cockpit, so even if one somehow dies, we'll have a second available. (And that paper requirement is only for the navigation charts... the various manuals that we also have to carry will be completely replaced by the iPad almost immediately.)

You won't be able to use them as approach plates any time soon.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...rolls-out.html
post #59 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulMJohnson View Post

Who's software package have you been using? I see United are going for Jeppesen, but I believe there are multiple options out there.

I'm about to start flying again after a year out (taildragger training starts in 5 hours!) and was thinking about subscribing to something like this, instead of heading to the pilots shop to update all my charts/AFD etc. I'd appreciate your advice on what you've found, what you like and don't like about it etc.

Foreflight. Definitely much better and more sophisticated than Jeppesen, even compared to the newest version of Jeppesen. Get the geo-referenced version and the ipad2 is a must due to better GPS reception than ipad1. No need for external GPS antenna with ipad2.
post #60 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

Do you use it for pre-flights and maintenance records -- are there apps for that?

Dick, hi no i use my old laminated card for preflights, except for weight and balance app. I use Foreflight on the ground for flight planning and weather briefing. Seems the ipad only gets in the way for preflight stuff. Only use logbooks for maint stuff. Foreflight is also looking into ADS-B traffic displays but all this stuff, and weather nexrad would require two more inflight communications systems different from typical internet connectivity, so it seems far off for now. The great thing about all these apps is the ability to work independantly from internet connectivity.
post #61 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post

Can you explain though what happens if both iPads die? Then you have no manuals, and no navigation charts. What happens then? I'm curious.

Everyone seems to forget you have to have redundant panel-mounted avionics, both of which must work, in order to even file a commercial IFR flight plan and takeoff. You use THESE for navigation and communication, not the ipad. The ipad just provides situational awareness. Approach plates are built into your panel avionics, so losing your ipads would not have any effect on these primary systems.
post #62 of 79
Thank you for the clarification. No, there's no Amtrak for the flight I'm taking in a few week's time. No trains that go over the sea yet... though I have imagined a levitating type of sea-crossing intercontinental green-energy super-high-speed railway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kibitzer View Post

If you're worried about two iPads failing at the same time, you're getting down to a probability so low that it would be a statistical fluke. Even so, as Suddenly Newton points out, there's an incredible amount of safety redundancy in commercial aviation.

And if you're still not reassured, then perhaps you need to give up air travel for Amtrak. Of course, the odds of a train derailing while you're aboard are likely much greater than two iPads failing simultaneously.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post

You will have to rely on something called PILOTING SKILLS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

If you're sitting in the back?... You'll never even notice it.

The charts in the iPad (or on paper) are required to be there... They aren't really necessary to fly or navigate or land. While they do make some things easier, it can all be done without them.

(And no... They don't have to be turned off for takeoff and landing. )

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bagman View Post

Everyone seems to forget you have to have redundant panel-mounted avionics, both of which must work, in order to even file a commercial IFR flight plan and takeoff. You use THESE for navigation and communication, not the ipad. The ipad just provides situational awareness. Approach plates are built into your panel avionics, so losing your ipads would not have any effect on these primary systems.
post #63 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bagman View Post

Everyone seems to forget you have to have redundant panel-mounted avionics, both of which must work, in order to even file a commercial IFR flight plan and takeoff. You use THESE for navigation and communication, not the ipad. The ipad just provides situational awareness. Approach plates are built into your panel avionics, so losing your ipads would not have any effect on these primary systems.

Could you explain "situational awareness" and "flight charts"? That may help us understand what the iPads are really helping out with.

Remember, most of us are just the cattle in the big ol' flying cattle-liner.
post #64 of 79
Yes a toy indeed! It's baffling to me how many people can't "see" beyond what they know, and what they know becomes their limit. Even more baffling is their passion in defending that limit by saying things such as "the iPad is just a toy to play videos and angry birds"

I just flew back to the states using Alitalia and I saw two pilots in the cockpit using them too. I think they had them on their own or maybe a "pilot" program since I haven't heard about Alitalia deploying them
post #65 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post

Thank you for the clarification. No, there's no Amtrak for the flight I'm taking in a few week's time. No trains that go over the sea yet... though I have imagined a levitating type of sea-crossing intercontinental green-energy super-high-speed railway.

Patent it. Quick.
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post #66 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by Junebug172 View Post

You won't be able to use them as approach plates any time soon.

We will... we'll just have to have a paper copy available to us as well... once they get class II approval, we'll supposedly be able to ditch the last set of paper charts in the cockpit as well.



nvidia2008 : I'll try....

Situational awareness is just knowing where the airplane is (we can't always see the ground, or even the horizon... and the thing is moving across the ground at 500 mph +)... that's what most of the instruments on the "dashboard" of the plane are for. We also have paper maps and charts ... both for large areas, and a single-page chart for each final approach to each runway at each airport... that's where precision becomes important (as we get very close to the ground and various obstacles attached to it)... when visibility is good, these charts aren't necessary, but when landing in heavy rain or fog... they contain the information and radio "landmarks" we need to navigate via the instrumentation alone.

All of that charted information is now available on the iPad instead of on paper ... each method (iPad vs Paper) has it's advantages, but the iPad advantages weigh heavily in its favor.
Right now, even with the iPad approved for use in the cockpit, the FAA (government) still will require us to carry a complete set of paper charts in the cockpit as a back-up ... once the iPad is proven for this use, that requirement should go away.

The iPad's GPS/Accelerometer, etc is not used for navigation ... it's only a method of displaying charts and maps and manuals ... a 2 pound tablet that replaces 40 pounds of paper and is much easier to keep up-to-date. (some of those paper charts are revised every two weeks.)

There is nothing the iPad is doing that is necessary to the safe conduct of the flight. Even if they both fail and all the paper blows out the window, getting the airplane safely on the ground is no greater feat than every other time we do it.

Just sit back and realize that the pilots intend to go home to their own families at the end of every trip... they're not going to accept or desire anything that would make that outcome less likely. Go back to your Coke and peanuts and let the pilots worry about flying the plane!
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post #67 of 79
Ok, it saves trees.....and these tablets get manufactured magically? So there's absolutely no energy use in their construction? No raw materials being mined in some craphole overseas?

God I hate enviroweenies....
post #68 of 79
Cheers for the explanation... *Quietly goes past curtain back to economy class *

Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

nvidia2008 : I'll try..................
post #69 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

Patent it. Quick.

Since Science Fiction is now hip in lawsuits, I'm publishing my "prior art" here. I'll patent troll later when it is all invented. I woke up one morning and wrote this down...

Dreamscape Prediction Year 2100

Trains that speed up so as to match main intercity high speeds including those over the sea maglev. Rolling transfer system platforms (moving platforms). These subtrains transfer to sub urban areas.. Forest etc reserves become parks. Ski etc increasingly simulated. The real wilderness is big ocean, sea level rise reducing islands, and deserts. Huge glass floating pontoon cities/ resorts for the last remaining wilderness. Spaceports. 5000 mile intercity, tourism, commercial probes and experimental moon/ mars research: Baikonur, Shanghai, Singapore, Queensland equatorial, Turkey, Mexico, Texas, Florida. 5000 mile intercity is X-plane concept. No distinct first contact but definitive "Signal" of 'prophetic' intelligence out there. Mars... Mineral resources found? Drives experimental 1-2 year rotating stay human colonies. Internet mirror sent for local web browsing. Email not that bad, streaming?

.................................
.................................
post #70 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post


We will... we'll just have to have a paper copy available to us as well... once they get class II approval, we'll supposedly be able to ditch the last set of paper charts in the cockpit as well.

Class 2 certification is not going to come by easily and the costs may outweigh the benefits. There are many issues that have to be overcome before the iPad can be used for approaches. Right now they're no where near being solved.

Mounting, power, viewing angles are all problems that have to be solved and two of those that I mentioned will require and STC. Once again, money.

I'm as excited as the next pilot to have this but I don't see it moving off Class I for a while.
post #71 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by Junebug172 View Post

Class 2 certification is not going to come by easily and the costs may outweigh the benefits. There are many issues that have to be overcome before the iPad can be used for approaches. Right now they're no where near being solved.

Mounting, power, viewing angles are all problems that have to be solved and two of those that I mentioned will require and STC. Once again, money.

I'm as excited as the next pilot to have this but I don't see it moving off Class I for a while.

Either way... we are still allowed to use it for approach plates... I really don't care if they want to keep a bag of backup paper charts behind my seat for all eternity... as long as I don't have to actually open it and use them!

Now... they haven't actually handed any of these out yet, so I'll be the first to admit that how they will be allowed to be used is subject to much change from what they're telling us...
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post #72 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by macslut View Post

As a pilot, and as an iPad owner, no; not at all.

What would worry me is to be in a plane where the pilot is digging through a bag trying to find something that is out of date, missing, damaged, or just harder to use than an iPad.

this is what the airlines are thinking about. In an emergency, brain farts happen to the best of us. We know what we are looking for but forget where to find it. Ipad apps can be built with search functions making it a lot easier to look up.

And they are easier to update with up to the hour info. Heck you could have the pilot in the cockpit about to taxi for takeoff when an update comes in and it can be sent OTA to the pilot's ipad in a matter of minutes with no waiting for someone to print it, run it to the gate, the pilot to find the old version and pull it out, put in the new one etc.

Next step will be the flight attendants who also have several pounds of manuals. Even perhaps ipod touches for taking drink orders. Who knows, perhaps they will create an app that could tell you passenger provided information like the guy in seat 14C is a diabetic and the girl in 25A is allergic to nuts. Or remind you that the couple in Row 9 have a stroller that should be waiting at the gate at landing and don't forget the wheelchair for the nice old lady in Row 3.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Rot'nApple View Post

iPad with a 10 hour battery on an 11 hour flight...

That's only a problem if there is not a way to recharge the ipad and you can bet that was the first thing the airlines took care of


Quote:
Originally Posted by Haggar View Post

United Airlines is a corporation and an enterprise. Apple is a consumer products company. Apple should not sell to enterprise customers. Apple should only sell to small businesses with less than 5 employees.

Just because a company's primary design focus is consumers and the occasional prosumer doesn't equal that they should be banned from selling to anyone that can use their products. If anything such a ban is a horrible move. It would create an environment where single utility devices would be put into play and given the captive audience, the prices would be insane (and passed on via higher ticket prices etc).

This is what happened with assistive communication devices when the insurance companies decided they wouldn't cover a penny of the cost if the device could be used for anything else. So no laptops, no ipads etc. Companies started making multi thousand dollar devices and the patients had to use them and get a partial to full insurance coverage or use a computer at their own cost which included very costly software etc.

A non tech's thoughts on Apple stuff 

(She's family so I'm a little biased)

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A non tech's thoughts on Apple stuff 

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post #73 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

Either way... we are still allowed to use it for approach plates... I really don't care if they want to keep a bag of backup paper charts behind my seat for all eternity... as long as I don't have to actually open it and use them!

Now... they haven't actually handed any of these out yet, so I'll be the first to admit that how they will be allowed to be used is subject to much change from what they're telling us...

Legally you won't. Class 1 EFB must be stowed for ops below 10000. You can reference manuals above 10 or out of sterile. You won't be able to shoot approaches off the iPads.
post #74 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bagman View Post

Dick, hi no i use my old laminated card for preflights, except for weight and balance app. I use Foreflight on the ground for flight planning and weather briefing. Seems the ipad only gets in the way for preflight stuff. Only use logbooks for maint stuff. Foreflight is also looking into ADS-B traffic displays but all this stuff, and weather nexrad would require two more inflight communications systems different from typical internet connectivity, so it seems far off for now. The great thing about all these apps is the ability to work independantly from internet connectivity.

Foreflight seems to be by far the most popular product among the private pilots I know, but our needs are quite different than ATPs flying for the corps. It makes VFR flight planning a cinch, and the innovation of moving-map sectionals is worth the price of admission all by itself (assuming your iPad is GPS equipped). I'm going to really miss my plotter and E6B. Not! Oh and my chart-folding-while-flying skills will probably wither away right along with my knowledge of flying from/to course through VORs. What is the world coming to?
Please don't be insane.
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post #75 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by Junebug172 View Post

Legally you won't. Class 1 EFB must be stowed for ops below 10000. You can reference manuals above 10 or out of sterile. You won't be able to shoot approaches off the iPads.

see... that's contrary to what we're being told by management ... but then, it certainly wouldn't be the first time management lied to me.
And the FAA grants waivers all the time for us to do stuff that would otherwise be contrary to FAR's.
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post #76 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haggar View Post

United Airlines is a corporation and an enterprise. Apple is a consumer products company. Apple should not sell to enterprise customers. Apple should only sell to small businesses with less than 5 employees.

This is not the case for Apple (just a consumer products company). You see them making inroads into the corporate landscape and in enterprise engineering with devices such as the iPad and the iPhone by the day. Given that I happen to work for United (formerly Continental) and am very close to this development, I can certainly attest to Apple's prowess in making this most certainly an enterprise device.

The challenge that Apple has currently is how they plan to manage these devices at an enterprise engineering level, as there are several Apps that are attempting to beat Apple to the punch in regards to their own devices (managing the configuration, apps users can download, sites they can access, documents that can be pushed to them, etc. I can almost bet Apple has some sort of systems management software in the works for just this purpose. If they don't, it would be a huge missed opportunity. Time will tell.
post #77 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

see... that's contrary to what we're being told by management ... but then, it certainly wouldn't be the first time management lied to me.
And the FAA grants waivers all the time for us to do stuff that would otherwise be contrary to FAR's.

The chances for getting a waiver for something that needs an STC is zero. These things need to be hooked into the aircraft's power and mounted.

I'm sure the goal is Class 2, but right now no airline is authorized.
post #78 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by Junebug172 View Post

The chances for getting a waiver for something that needs an STC is zero. These things need to be hooked into the aircraft's power and mounted.

I'm sure the goal is Class 2, but right now no airline is authorized.

Then again, who cares if it's Class 2 approved or not (from a pilots perspective, anyway)... let them keep a case of paper charts behind my seat (so that a class 2/3 device is not needed) ... I'll never open them... I'll just use my worthless "Class 1" iPad when I need to look at a chart.

The day I quit lugging around a 40 pound bag of paper (circa 1950's technology) can't come soon enough!
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From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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post #79 of 79
Nice "press release" from 2 months ago.

To date, United still has not even ORDERED the iPads, much less deployed them.

I'm thinking this was maybe a PR move to try to convince the public that the airline uses the latest technology. In practice, they seem to have no intention of doing so.
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AppleInsider › Forums › Mobile › iPad › United Airlines uses 11,000 iPads to take planes paperless