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Tax cut idiocy explained!

post #1 of 32
Thread Starter 
This one is especially for Jazzguru. Enjoy.

http://front.moveon.org/the-0-0-0-tax-plan/
post #2 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

This one is especially for Jazzguru. Enjoy.

http://front.moveon.org/the-0-0-0-tax-plan/

It's sort of sad that all you and BR can ever find to post in terms of influences on your thinking are comedy skits, snarky pictures and cartoons.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #3 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

It's sort of sad that all you and BR can ever find to post in terms of influences on your thinking are comedy skits, snarky pictures and cartoons.

Comedy is the only way to put your ideas in the hearts of others without much offense.
post #4 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by linkgx1 View Post

Comedy is the only way to put your ideas in the hearts of others without much offense.

here is an old saying in life "Laugh and the whole world will laugh with you and cry you will cry alone". This is true in life.
post #5 of 32
Let me understand this: Arguing for tax cuts is the same as arguing for NO taxes? And on the topic of tax cuts, let me ask: If we had no taxes for 6 months, what would happen to the US economy?
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post #6 of 32
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Let me understand this: Arguing for tax cuts is the same as arguing for NO taxes? And on the topic of tax cuts, let me ask: If we had no taxes for 6 months, what would happen to the US economy?

Let me ask you this: If the key to stimulating an economy is cutting taxes, and it's also not wise to raise taxes in a period of growth, then when do we raise taxes to the pre-cut levels?
post #7 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Let me ask you this: If the key to stimulating an economy is cutting taxes, and it's also not wise to raise taxes in a period of growth, then when do we raise taxes to the pre-cut levels?

If the economy is stimulated and the cuts to the government are not causing issues, why would you raise them at all? Just playing the same assumption game you are...
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #8 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Let me ask you this: If the key to stimulating an economy is cutting taxes, and it's also not wise to raise taxes in a period of growth, then when do we raise taxes to the pre-cut levels?

We don't, unless you're talking about a tax holiday scenario like I laid out. The kind of tax cuts I'm talking about are not temporary.

The problem, tonton, is that you honestly believe taxes now are the "lowest they've ever been." From that, you conclude that the previous tax cuts over the past 30 years have been ineffective. Of course, taxes are not the lowest they have ever been. In fact, Americans are saddled with more taxes than ever in terms of total burden. The problem is that that government takes too much, and spends even more. The only way to have steady growth is with real tax reform...a simpler, flatter system in which everyone or nearly everyone contributes.
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post #9 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Let me ask you this: If the key to stimulating an economy is cutting taxes, and it's also not wise to raise taxes in a period of growth, then when do we raise taxes to the pre-cut levels?

I've argued you ought to raise them during periods of excessive growth or when growth clearly hits a bubble or speculative phase.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #10 of 32
First thing's first: the income tax should be abolished, along with the death tax and capital gains tax.

A Flat Tax or Fair Tax would both be preferable to the current system, but we need to make sure the 16th amendment is repealed before trying to implement another system. Otherwise, it's just adding another layer of taxation over the existing failed system.

That said, tax reform will not matter if federal spending is not drastically reduced and restrained.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #11 of 32
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

If the economy is stimulated and the cuts to the government are not causing issues, why would you raise them at all? Just playing the same assumption game you are...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

We don't, unless you're talking about a tax holiday scenario like I laid out. The kind of tax cuts I'm talking about are not temporary.

So. When the economy slows down we cut taxes. Got it. But then we never raise them again. So lets say taxes are 35%. The economy hiccups. We cut them to 32%. five years later, the economy hiccups again. Cut to 29%. Pretty soon we've cut to 20%. It's unsustainable to keep cutting taxes ad infinitum, because at some point, that's right, you reach zero, zero, zero, and we bow to the feudal lord with the walls and the private security. Our new government.
Quote:
The problem, tonton, is that you honestly believe taxes now are the "lowest they've ever been." From that, you conclude that the previous tax cuts over the past 30 years have been ineffective. Of course, taxes are not the lowest they have ever been. In fact, Americans are saddled with more taxes than ever in terms of total burden. The problem is that that government takes too much, and spends even more. The only way to have steady growth is with real tax reform...a simpler, flatter system in which everyone or nearly everyone contributes.

The amount of taxation taken as a percentage of GDP is the lowest it's been since the 1950's. The burden has shifted, but that's the truth. The little guy feels the pinch more because we're creating loopholes for the big guy, they're finding new loopholes that we're not closing up, and they're getting away with evasion more without being investigated and forced to pay up.

And it costs more to run a modern, human society as more civil rights are recognized, and as humanity progresses. The cost of government goes up. Taxes in the US are lower than any large modern nation. And the US is by no means more successful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

I've argued you ought to raise them during periods of excessive growth or when growth clearly hits a bubble or speculative phase.

This is more reasonable. But imagine what would have happened had Clinton raised taxes. He would have been murdered by the right wing!

Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

First thing's first: the income tax should be abolished, along with the death tax and capital gains tax.

A Flat Tax or Fair Tax would both be preferable to the current system, but we need to make sure the 16th amendment is repealed before trying to implement another system. Otherwise, it's just adding another layer of taxation over the existing failed system.

That said, tax reform will not matter if federal spending is not drastically reduced and restrained.

Should the poor receive any sort of standard deduction for basic cost of living? Any at all?
post #12 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Should the poor receive any sort of standard deduction for basic cost of living? Any at all?

Government should not give any preferential treatment to one group of people over another.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #13 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

So. When the economy slows down we cut taxes. Got it. But then we never raise them again. So lets say taxes are 35%. The economy hiccups. We cut them to 32%. five years later, the economy hiccups again. Cut to 29%. Pretty soon we've cut to 20%. It's unsustainable to keep cutting taxes ad infinitum, because at some point, that's right, you reach zero, zero, zero, and we bow to the feudal lord with the walls and the private security. Our new government.

That is not what I said at all. Read my post and be honest about it.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #14 of 32
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

That is not what I said at all. Read my post and be honest about it.

I've read your post. You said you wouldn't raise taxes to prior levels, if there are no problems. Then the future comes, and there are problems, and are you going to cut taxes again, to stimulate the economy again?
post #15 of 32
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Government should not give any preferential treatment to one group of people over another.

So how do you deal with the snowball effect of power and money? Or do you deny that it exists?

"It takes money to make money" is one of the oldest adages in the world, and it retains its truth. So what of the people who can't make money because they don't have any to begin with?
post #16 of 32
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Government should not give any preferential treatment to one group of people over another.

Anyway, I'm not saying what is offered to the poor is any different from what is offered to everyone. A standard deduction for everyone. The first $50,000 of income should be untaxable, for the poor, and for the rich, for everyone. Equal.
post #17 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

So how do you deal with the snowball effect of power and money? Or do you deny that it exists?

"It takes money to make money" is one of the oldest adages in the world, and it retains its truth. So what of the people who can't make money because they don't have any to begin with?

A constitutionally limited government that does not have the power to seize your money/property under threat of violence and give it to large corporations would be a good start.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #18 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Anyway, I'm not saying what is offered to the poor is any different from what is offered to everyone. A standard deduction for everyone. The first $50,000 of income should be untaxable, for the poor, and for the rich, for everyone. Equal.

That still gives preferential treatment to one group of people over another and I am against that.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #19 of 32
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

That still gives preferential treatment to one group of people over another and I am against that.

How is saying, "hey, everybody, every one of you gets $50,000 tax free income to live your life humanely" giving anyone special treatment? It's giving everyone the exact same system!
post #20 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

How is saying, "hey, everybody, every one of you gets $50,000 tax free income to live your life humanely" giving anyone special treatment? It's giving everyone the exact same system!

Because anyone making above $50,000 would be taxed to pay for the services that everyone making under $50,000 would get to enjoy without having to pay for them.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #21 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Because anyone making above $50,000 would be taxed to pay for the services that everyone making under $50,000 would get to enjoy without having to pay for them.

How many people have to starve to death or go without proper medical care before you regain your humanity?

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #22 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

I've read your post. You said you wouldn't raise taxes to prior levels, if there are no problems. Then the future comes, and there are problems, and are you going to cut taxes again, to stimulate the economy again?

What problems are there? Government problems or economy problems? WHy is raising taxes going to solve the problems. What are we trying to solve? There is not one answer that fits all circumstances. I know you know this.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #23 of 32
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

What problems are there? Government problems or economy problems? WHy is raising taxes going to solve the problems. What are we trying to solve? There is not one answer that fits all circumstances. I know you know this.

It is you who say that cutting taxes solves problems. Do you honestly think that if you cut taxes once, there will never ever be economic problems again in the future?
post #24 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

So. When the economy slows down we cut taxes. Got it. But then we never raise them again. So lets say taxes are 35%. The economy hiccups. We cut them to 32%. five years later, the economy hiccups again. Cut to 29%. Pretty soon we've cut to 20%. It's unsustainable to keep cutting taxes ad infinitum, because at some point, that's right, you reach zero, zero, zero, and we bow to the feudal lord with the walls and the private security. Our new government.

This presumes an economy that never recovers and never grows. Why would that happen?

Quote:
The amount of taxation taken as a percentage of GDP is the lowest it's been since the 1950's. The burden has shifted, but that's the truth. The little guy feels the pinch more because we're creating loopholes for the big guy, they're finding new loopholes that we're not closing up, and they're getting away with evasion more without being investigated and forced to pay up.

The amount taken vs gdp is low not because the rates have changed but because so many people are unemployed or basically are not doing taxable activities. The rich are still paying a larger percentage than ever. Also everyone should have skin in the game. No one should be exempt from taxation. I've criticized Bush about that repeatedly. If it is a social contract, a community obligation, then everyone must contribute.

Quote:
And it costs more to run a modern, human society as more civil rights are recognized, and as humanity progresses. The cost of government goes up. Taxes in the US are lower than any large modern nation. And the US is by no means more successful.

Rights don't drive up the costs, it is declarations that we must be safe from life. We must be safe from terrorists, from toxins, from any boogieman we can conjure. Real life requires real risk.

Quote:
This is more reasonable. But imagine what would have happened had Clinton raised taxes. He would have been murdered by the right wing!

Yes because he didn't raise taxes at the beginning of his first term (yes he did) and he sure got away scott free later (when he got impeached.)

Quote:
Should the poor receive any sort of standard deduction for basic cost of living? Any at all?

A deduction is different than a credit. Most tax credits like the child tax credit, earned income tax credit and others are awarded regardless if any taxes are paid. If you are a low income single mother with three kids, you basically get $7000 or so back in taxes without having worked an hour or having paid a cent of taxes. That is straight up income transfer and buying of votes via dependence. Many Republican plans have included a floor in the first X number of dollars earned. The difference is they don't award taxes back that haven't actually been paid. I assure you that if you research in this area it is huge.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #25 of 32
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

This presumes an economy that never recovers and never grows. Why would that happen?

No, aside from what you've said you support (raising taxes during times of growth, which I also support), this, based on what others have said in this thread (that taxes should never be raised) presumes an economy that never stumbles once it has recovered. Which is stupid.
Quote:
The amount taken vs gdp is low not because the rates have changed but because so many people are unemployed or basically are not doing taxable activities.

What, you mean like Exxon and GE and Warren Buffett? Those people who are effectively paying little or no taxes at all?
Quote:
The rich are still paying a larger percentage than ever.

Yeah. Riiight. If by rich you mean middle class, yes. Not the rich. And as the middle class shrinks, of course fewer people are going to have taxable incomes. Duh. Taxes are not what's causing the middle class to shrink, and the rich are NOT paying their share.
Quote:
Also everyone should have skin in the game. No one should be exempt from taxation.

No one is. First of all, the poor do pay taxes in the form of consumption taxes. Second, those who work pay taxes on their income indirectly, through salary cuts. Cutting corporate taxes even further or adding more loopholes is not going to fix that.
Quote:
I've criticized Bush about that repeatedly. If it is a social contract, a community obligation, then everyone must contribute.

Everyone does.
Quote:
Rights don't drive up the costs, it is declarations that we must be safe from life. We must be safe from terrorists, from toxins, from any boogieman we can conjure. Real life requires real risk.

Should we not strive to end perpetual ignorance and poverty, hunger and suffering? You're saying suffering is part of life, and if people suffer, they should just accept it. This is uncivilized thought.
Quote:
Yes because he didn't raise taxes at the beginning of his first term (yes he did) and he sure got away scott free later (when he got impeached.)

So wait a minute... Clinton raised taxes... And then the economy got better!? And then the Republicans still crucified him?
Quote:
A deduction is different than a credit. Most tax credits like the child tax credit, earned income tax credit and others are awarded regardless if any taxes are paid. If you are a low income single mother with three kids, you basically get $7000 or so back in taxes without having worked an hour or having paid a cent of taxes. That is straight up income transfer and buying of votes via dependence. Many Republican plans have included a floor in the first X number of dollars earned. The difference is they don't award taxes back that haven't actually been paid. I assure you that if you research in this area it is huge.

Which has absolutely fuck all to do with what I was talking about.
post #26 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

It is you who say that cutting taxes solves problems. Do you honestly think that if you cut taxes once, there will never ever be economic problems again in the future?

Do you honestly believe that is what I am saying?
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #27 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Do you honestly believe that is what I am saying?

Let's rephrase...is there any situation in which you would be in favor of raising taxes? If so, when?

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #28 of 32
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Do you honestly believe that is what I am saying?

Ok, explain it to me again. I missed something. Tell me again when you would raise taxes.
post #29 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Let's rephrase...is there any situation in which you would be in favor of raising taxes? If so, when?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Ok, explain it to me again. I missed something. Tell me again when you would raise taxes.

Wow, you two share a brain lately.

If the government cannot fulfill its basic duties to the public due to lack of funding then it is time to raise taxes. Are we there yet? No, the government is trying to do everything for everyone and has hundreds if not thousands of side projects that it is trying to fund while at the same time making huge cuts to the basic services it is supposed to provide. It is an age old trick, cut the critical services and claim there is not enough money so that people will have to vote to raise taxes while funding things that the government has no business doing. I have my list of them, and I am sure you have yours. Cut them all, and get back to the basic core services that is required to run the country. After that, if there is still a shortfall, we can talk about raising taxes. It is basic budgeting 101. Cut unnecessary expenses to balance your budget. If you do that and there is still not enough, increase your income or start cutting things that hurt more.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #30 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

So. When the economy slows down we cut taxes. Got it. But then we never raise them again. So lets say taxes are 35%. The economy hiccups. We cut them to 32%. five years later, the economy hiccups again. Cut to 29%. Pretty soon we've cut to 20%. It's unsustainable to keep cutting taxes ad infinitum, because at some point, that's right, you reach zero, zero, zero, and we bow to the feudal lord with the walls and the private security. Our new government.

It's like a reading a fictional novel. That's not what's happened...ever. We wouldn't need to cut taxes bit by bit if we had a fair, simple system. But we don't. We have a system where Congress picks the winners and losers, and gives out breaks to various segments of the populations in exchange for political support. That's got to end.

Quote:


The amount of taxation taken as a percentage of GDP is the lowest it's been since the 1950's.

Only for federal income taxes. I'm talking about all taxes. Also, I'm not sure that stat actually matters in reality.

Quote:
The burden has shifted, but that's the truth. The little guy feels the pinch more because we're creating loopholes for the big guy, they're finding new loopholes that we're not closing up, and they're getting away with evasion more without being investigated and forced to pay up.

Actually, the rich pay more of the total tax burden than they did ten years ago, if we're talking federal income taxes. As for the loopholes, that's why we need a simpler system that doesn't punish success, or the poor.

Quote:

And it costs more to run a modern, human society as more civil rights are recognized, and as humanity progresses.


I think you mean "as more rights are invented." Once we get to the point of the internet being a civil right, costs tend to go up.

Quote:
The cost of government goes up. Taxes in the US are lower than any large modern nation. And the US is by no means more successful.

It's more successful by a lot of means, actually. We have the largest middle class in the world, and the largest economy in the world despite having 1/3 the population of our nearest competitor. As for other first world economies, how is Europe doing these days?
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post #31 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

How many people have to starve to death or go without proper medical care before you regain your humanity?

How many times must you deliberately distort what people are saying?
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post #32 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

No, aside from what you've said you support (raising taxes during times of growth, which I also support), this, based on what others have said in this thread (that taxes should never be raised) presumes an economy that never stumbles once it has recovered. Which is stupid.

The economy would not stumble if we had a fair taxation system with limited government.

Quote:
What, you mean like Exxon and GE and Warren Buffett? Those people who are effectively paying little or no taxes at all?

This is why we need a fairer, flatter, simpler corporate system as well. Buffett pays much more than a "little" bit in taxes.

Quote:




Yeah. Riiight. If by rich you mean middle class, yes. Not the rich. And as the middle class shrinks, of course fewer people are going to have taxable incomes.

The rich pay a greater share of the total tax burden (income) than they did a decade ago. Look it up.

Quote:

Duh. Taxes are not what's causing the middle class to shrink, and the rich are NOT paying their share. No one is. First of all, the poor do pay taxes in the form of consumption taxes. Second, those who work pay taxes on their income indirectly, through salary cuts. Cutting corporate taxes even further or adding more loopholes is not going to fix that.

You're delusional. The rich and middle class (particularly the latter) are taxed to the hilt.

Quote:


Everyone does.

No, everyone does not. Like 47% of people. And GE. And Exxon...like you said.

Quote:


Should we not strive to end perpetual ignorance and poverty, hunger and suffering? You're saying suffering is part of life, and if people suffer, they should just accept it. This is uncivilized thought.

We should strive...but not through taxing and redistributing money. We've been trying that for 70 years or more, and it continues to fail.

Quote:

So wait a minute... Clinton raised taxes... And then the economy got better!? And then the Republicans still crucified him?

The economy recovered in spite of Clinton's increase, mostly because of the tech boom.
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