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Marco Rubio--not fit for public office - Page 2

post #41 of 121
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

 

Not at all. I'm not asking you to prove anything. I'm saying that you have made a claim that is either true or false and that you cannot prove your claim therefore it is a statement of faith.

 

This isn't that hard.

 

You can say that all you want, but it will remain bullshit.  You should educate yourself with regard to inductive reasoning backed by Bayesian logic.  There is no faith involved.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #42 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

You can say that all you want, but it will remain bullshit.

 

Back at ya.

 

It's been real.

 

1rolleyes.gif

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post #43 of 121
Thread Starter 

Way to ignore the inductive reasoning founded on Bayesian logic part.  You just took the coward's way out right here.  Shame on you.

 

Are you familiar with Bayes' Theorem?  Are you familiar with inductive reasoning?  Are you familiar with how the two are linked?  If not, you have some reading to do.  The evidence (your posts claiming induction as faith) demonstrates that the likelihood that you are aware or understand these things is rather small.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #44 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Way to ignore the inductive reasoning founded on Bayesian logic part.  You just took the coward's way out right here.  Shame on you.

 

1oyvey.gif

 

How cute of you.

 

P.S. You're hardly in any position to make accusations of cowardly conduct. That would make you profoundly hypocritical.

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post #45 of 121
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

 

1oyvey.gif

 

How cute of you.

 

P.S. You're hardly in any position to make accusations of cowardly conduct. That would make you profoundly hypocritical.

Observe as he continues to ignore inductive reasoning founded on Bayesian logic.  Perhaps that sentence is in his blind spot.  Maybe this will help him see it:

 

inductive reasoning founded on Bayesian logic is not faith

 

                                                                        inductive reasoning founded on Bayesian logic is not faith

      inductive reasoning founded on Bayesian logic is not faith

 

 

                                                                   inductive reasoning founded on Bayesian logic is not faith

 

inductive reasoning founded on Bayesian logic is not faith

 

 

inductive reasoning founded on Bayesian logic is not faith

 

inductive reasoning founded on Bayesian logic is not faith

inductive reasoning founded on Bayesian logic is not faith

inductive reasoning founded on Bayesian logic is not faith

inductive reasoning founded on Bayesian logic is not faith

inductive reasoning founded on Bayesian logic is not faith

inductive reasoning founded on Bayesian logic is not faith

 

Hmm, perhaps he might notice it now and address it.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #46 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Observe as he continues to ignore inductive reasoning founded on Bayesian logic.

 

Not ignoring it at all. Just not going to engage with you on this topic at this time. Winding the night down.

 

In general, engaging with you at all is against my better judgement...what with your fallacious thinking, overall bitterness and generally offensive and profane demeanor.

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post #47 of 121
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

 

Not ignoring it at all. Just not going to engage with you on this topic at this time. Winding the night down.

 

In general, engaging with you at all is against my better judgement...what with your fallacious thinking, overall bitterness and generally offensive and profane demeanor.

*reads last sentence* 

*glances down at MJ's signature*

*rolls eyes AS HARD AS HE CAN*

 

 

inductive reasoning founded on Bayesian logic is not faith

inductive reasoning founded on Bayesian logic is not faith

inductive reasoning founded on Bayesian logic is not faith

inductive reasoning founded on Bayesian logic is not faith

inductive reasoning founded on Bayesian logic is not faith

inductive reasoning founded on Bayesian logic is not faith

 

You clearly have some homework to do.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #48 of 121

Unfortunately I don't have much time now to give your childishly colorful posts the response they should receive, I will address a couple of points here:

 

  1. All you're doing by whipping out Bayesian-logic based inductive reasoning is giving a rather fancy and sophisticated-sounding label to the fact that you are using probabilities for the derivation of your conclusions and hoping we'll all be bowled over by your "obvious" intellect and "rigorous" scientific thinking. Probabilities are not the same thing as facts, though they may be derived from them, they are still probabilities and not certainties. They are also probabilities that are subject to bias and only current understandings which my be incomplete or even incorrect.
  2. My point still stands that the gap between the established probability of some thing and 100% probability (certainty) is still covered by faith. I understand that you are deeply fearful of this word. This is unfortunate and very limiting for you. But that's your problem, not mine.
  3. Using probabilistic inductive reasoning is all well and fine. We all use it for many things in many parts of our lives. However, it starts to diminish (often greatly) in its usefulness to the extent that probabilities cannot be objectively established, the basis for those probabilities are faulty in some way, or you are just making up the probabilities without any evidentiary or factual support.
  4. Finally, for someone who implies he is a rigorous and devout practitioner of Bayesian-logic based inductive reasoning, you have clearly demonstrated and documented cases where you have significant flights from this reasoning approach when the actual probabilities don't fit with your pre-determined conclusions. I see this particularly in the realm of economic thought as well as political philosophy and practical political and governing matters.

 

Anyway...back you your crayon-colored posting.

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post #49 of 121
Thread Starter 

A very longwinded way of saying "lalalalalalalalalala faith". 

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #50 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

A very longwinded way of saying "lalalalalalalalalala faith". 

 

Is that the best you can do? Really? That and crayon-colored posts that simply repeat a mantra of yours?

 

1eek.gif

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post #51 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

 

Is that the best you can do? Really? That and crayon-colored posts that simply repeat a mantra of yours?

 

1eek.gif

 

1smile.gif I think you know the answer to that one!  

I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #52 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

 

1smile.gif I think you know the answer to that one!  

 

I know. Against my better judgement, I chose to start engaging with him again. Back to ignore I guess.

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post #53 of 121
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

 

Is that the best you can do? Really? That and crayon-colored posts that simply repeat a mantra of yours?

 

1eek.gif

It's not a mantra.  You say something is faith.  Faith is belief without evidence.  Instead I play the odds that have been informed by evidence using induction via the deductive framework of Bayesian logic--and I don't claim absolute knowledge either way.  The latter is NOT faith.  

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #54 of 121
Well, if you have faith in those spiritual lottery tickets you're buying, then all power to you.

Personally, I have faith in science and choose not to make asinine bets on remote probabilities.

You're right, MJ, faith is faith no matter the probability. But BR is right, too. Some faith is stupider than others.
post #55 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Personally, I have faith in science and choose not to make asinine bets on remote probabilities.

 

Except of course when it comes to economics. lol.gif

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Some faith is stupider than others.

 

I agree.

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post #56 of 121
Well, between the two of us, one of the economic theories we support has actually been tested, and has proven successful in many many cases. That's science.
post #57 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Well, between the two of us, one of the economic theories we support has actually been tested, and has proven successful in many many cases. That's science.

 

Correct. But it's not the one you think.

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post #58 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Well, between the two of us, one of the economic theories we support has actually been tested, and has proven successful in many many cases. That's science.

Correct. But it's not the one you think.
Oooh-kaaay. 1rolleyes.gif

I guess all of those places where anarchocapitalism have been tested are on the utopian planet of Kolob, and we non-Mormons simply aren't allowed to know about them.

Meanwhile, high-tax high support system Socialism works brilliantly in Holland, Scandinavia, Switzerland, Austria, Germany, Belgium and yes, Hong Kong and Singapore. Even Canada and France have excellent social programs. Yes there are still poor and unemployed in France (unlike the US rhey're all inner city youths pretty much) but not as much as in the US, where poverty runs deep throughout the cities and in rural areas alike.
post #59 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Oooh-kaaay. 1rolleyes.gif
I guess all of those places where anarchocapitalism have been tested are on the utopian planet of Kolob, and we non-Mormons simply aren't allowed to know about them.

 

WTF?!

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Meanwhile, high-tax high support system Socialism works brilliantly in Holland, Scandinavia, Switzerland, Austria, Germany, Belgium and yes, Hong Kong and Singapore. Even Canada and France have excellent social programs. Yes there are still poor and unemployed in France (unlike the US rhey're all inner city youths pretty much) but not as much as in the US, where poverty runs deep throughout the cities and in rural areas alike.

 

I'd explain to how you are wrong, but...well...I've had my fill of talking to brick walls for a while.

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post #60 of 121
Of the following populous, modern countries:

US, UK, Germany, France, Spain, Canada, Australia, South Korea, Japan

The US is the least socialist, yet the US has the biggest poverty problems.

So let's have even less socialism in the US! Yeah, that's the ticket. Let's double down on stupid.
post #61 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Oooh-kaaay. 1rolleyes.gif

I guess all of those places where anarchocapitalism have been tested are on the utopian planet of Kolob, and we non-Mormons simply aren't allowed to know about them.

WTF?!

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Meanwhile, high-tax high support system Socialism works brilliantly in Holland, Scandinavia, Switzerland, Austria, Germany, Belgium and yes, Hong Kong and Singapore. Even Canada and France have excellent social programs. Yes there are still poor and unemployed in France (unlike the US rhey're all inner city youths pretty much) but not as much as in the US, where poverty runs deep throughout the cities and in rural areas alike.

I'd explain to how you are wrong, but...well...I've had my fill of talking to brick walls for a while.
You claimed anarchocapitalism has been tested and is successful. That claim is bullshit. Anarchocapitalism is faith-based, not science based, in that regard.
post #62 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Of the following populous, modern countries:
US, UK, Germany, France, Spain, Canada, Australia, South Korea, Japan
The US is the least socialist, yet the US has the biggest poverty problems.
So let's have even less socialism in the US! Yeah, that's the ticket. Let's double down on stupid.

 

I would disagree with your characterization of how socialist the US is. I've explained, repeatedly, that the US is a mix of socialism, fascism (corporatism) and market economy. You attribute the many ills in the US to the smallest part. Interesting. You also appear to ignore time and history in your analysis of all countries. How can you be taken seriously?

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post #63 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

You claimed anarchocapitalism has been tested and is successful. That claim is bullshit. Anarchocapitalism is faith-based, not science based, in that regard.

 

Actually, I was referring to the general principles of smaller government, less regulation, lower taxes, freer trade. Not the most extreme of those which is anarcho-capitalism.

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post #64 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Of the following populous, modern countries:

US, UK, Germany, France, Spain, Canada, Australia, South Korea, Japan

The US is the least socialist, yet the US has the biggest poverty problems.

So let's have even less socialism in the US! Yeah, that's the ticket. Let's double down on stupid.

I would disagree with your characterization of how socialist the US is.
Of course you would.

But here are the facts:

US:

Universal healthcare? No.
Subsidized housing? No.
Subsidized tertiary education? No.

Those are the three most important aspects of a successful Socialist system. And the US has none, while all of those other nations have two or three out of three on the list.

Of course when you look at socialism in the US, for the most part you're talking about corporate socialism. Which should end. That includes obamacare and bailouts. Replace obamacare (which guarantees profits for insurance companies -- corporate socialism) and replace it with national public healthcare, and we're getting somewhere.
post #65 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

You claimed anarchocapitalism has been tested and is successful. That claim is bullshit. Anarchocapitalism is faith-based, not science based, in that regard.

Actually, I was referring to the general principles of smaller government, less regulation, lower taxes, freer trade. Not the most extreme of those which is anarcho-capitalism.
I see.
post #66 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post


Of course you would.
But here are the facts:
US:
Universal healthcare? No.
Subsidized housing? No.
Subsidized tertiary education? No.
Those are the three most important aspects of a successful Socialist system. And the US has none, while all of those other nations have two or three out of three on the list.
Of course when you look at socialism in the US, for the most part you're talking about corporate socialism. Which should end. That includes obamacare and bailouts. Replace obamacare (which guarantees profits for insurance companies -- corporate socialism) and replace it with national public healthcare, and we're getting somewhere.

 

The problem for you is that's an extremely narrow and (what's the phrase we want to use here?)...convenient set of things to define "socialist." That's called fitting the definition and facts to your argument.

 

1hmm.gif

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post #67 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

I see.

 

Good.

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post #68 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Of course you would.

But here are the facts:

US:

Universal healthcare? No.

Subsidized housing? No.

Subsidized tertiary education? No.

Those are the three most important aspects of a successful Socialist system. And the US has none, while all of those other nations have two or three out of three on the list.

Of course when you look at socialism in the US, for the most part you're talking about corporate socialism. Which should end. That includes obamacare and bailouts. Replace obamacare (which guarantees profits for insurance companies -- corporate socialism) and replace it with national public healthcare, and we're getting somewhere.

The problem for you is that's an extremely narrow and (what's the phrase we want to use here?)...convenient set of things to define "socialist." That's called fitting the definition and facts to your argument.

1hmm.gif
Yes, but that's exactly, precisely, the system I am advocating. The system I advocate must include all three of those major socialist aspects. And where that's in practice in a democratic system with reasonable (not absolute) freedoms, societies are thriving. Poverty is virtually eliminated. As in BETTER THAN.

Your philosophy, not the general idea of smaller government (which may include those things), but your entire principal is staunchly against any of those.

Name one successful country that does not have those things in place.

Yet your fundamental belief is strongly against them.

Seems a bit too focused on the "general idea" and not focused enough on the details.
post #69 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Yes, but that's exactly, precisely, the system I am advocating. The system I advocate must include all three of those major socialist aspects.

 

That's fine if that's your definition of what socialist is. I guess. But the problem is you're now running up against the fact that this definition might not be all of what others think when you say "socialist." Socialism, generally speaking, is the government ownership and/or control of the means of production. The actual structure and form this ownership and control can take can be quite varied. In the US, the primary school system, for example, is clearly socialist. Other things are less obvious.

 

As to the items you've listed:

 

- While the US doesn't have universal healthcare, the governments of the US are clearly very heavily involved with, controlling and paying for a substantial portion of healthcare.

- There certainly is subsidized housing in various forms and structures in the US.

- What are you referring to as "ternary education?"

 

But more than that, another broader measure that factors out the various specific programs, etc. is the measure of government spending...particularly as a % of GDP. IN the US this is quite high...30-40%. Also the level of taxation.

 

In the end I find it rather annoying that you advocate for higher taxes in a country that you won't end up paying, while living in a country that I would LOVE if the US move closer to...with tax rates probably half (or less) of the US, government spending easily less than half what the US does, etc. etc.

 

Shit, I'd take the Hong Kong model vs. the US model in a heartbeat!

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Your philosophy, not the general idea of smaller government (which may include those things), but your entire principal is staunchly against any of those.

 

Correct.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Name one successful country that does not have those things in place.

 

The whole "name any country that has done it your way" is an extraordinarily stupid "argument." The implication is that because it has not been done (yet) it cannot work and cannot be done. Surely you must see the stupidity of this assumption.


Edited by MJ1970 - 12/6/12 at 7:57pm

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post #70 of 121
Thread Starter 

He's asking for evidence that would suggest your proposal could work.  We aren't into faith-based government, especially the kind that if it doesn't go how you think it should, the least fortunate are the ones who get fucked over the most.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #71 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

He's asking for evidence that would suggest your proposal could work.  We aren't into faith-based government, especially the kind that if it doesn't go how you think it should, the least fortunate are the ones who get fucked over the most.
Exactly. Faith-based government. This is, after all, the faith thread.
post #72 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Exactly. Faith-based government. This is, after all, the faith thread.

 

1rolleyes.gif 1oyvey.gif

 

 

 

I understand that I support freedom and you don't, but if this is the best you can come up with, I guess we're done.

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post #73 of 121
"Shit, I'd take the Hong Kong model vs. the US model in a heartbeat!"

What, the model where corporate profits tax is 15-17.5%, with absolutely zero deductions, other than a basic standard deduction for small businesses? Sure, I'd love to see GE paying 17.5%.

You do realize that the HK government makes most of its money from land sales. Pretty soon the land will be all used up... What comes next?
post #74 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Exactly. Faith-based government. This is, after all, the faith thread.

1rolleyes.gif  1oyvey.gif



I understand that I support freedom and you don't, but if this is the best you can come up with, I guess we're done.
You're lying. I don't "not support freedom". I just don't support absolute freedom when it harms people.
post #75 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

You're lying. I don't "not support freedom".

 

No I'm not. You've been quite clear that you advocate a great number of infringements on people's freedom in order to impose your values on them.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

I just don't support absolute freedom when it harms people.

 

You'll have to be clearer about this vague definition.

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post #76 of 121
Thread Starter 

MJ, since you have admitted that pragmatically a certain level of taxation is tolerable to fund necessary functions of government, you lost your self-proclaimed freedom fighting moral high ground.  You are OK with what you consider theft as long as it is limited to things that you feel are necessary.  Well, I feel a different level of spending is necessary.  We disagree on the degree of services the government should provide, but we don't disagree that taxes are necessary.  Yet, you love to call people like me and tonton freedom-hating thieves while you essentially are the same thing to a lesser degree.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #77 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

MJ, since you have admitted that pragmatically a certain level of taxation is tolerable to fund necessary functions of government, you lost your self-proclaimed freedom fighting moral high ground.

 

Wrong. 1oyvey.gif

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

You are OK with what you consider theft as long as it is limited to things that you feel are necessary.

 

You've clearly not taken all that I said on that.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Well, I feel a different level of spending is necessary.

 

Yes, you think there should be more theft and I think it should be minimized the least amount that is possible.

 

You have no moral high-ground here at all.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Yet, you love to call people like me and tonton freedom-hating thieves while you essentially are the same thing to a lesser degree.

 

Bullshit. My goal and pursuit is to minimize and eliminate this immorality, yours is to expand it. We are nothing alike. Don't flatter yourself.

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post #78 of 121
Let me ask, do you support the freedom to drive drunk? No? You don't support freedom, you fascist!
post #79 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Let me ask, do you support the freedom to drive drunk? No? You don't support freedom, you fascist!

 

I would imagine that private road operators would have rules about driving while impaired if it represented a safety concern to their customers.

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post #80 of 121
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Bullshit. My goal and pursuit is to minimize and eliminate this immorality, yours is to expand it. We are nothing alike. Don't flatter yourself.

Don't worry, I don't want to be like you.  I prefer not living in a fantasy world.  However, in this case, we actually are similar (except I don't think taxes are immoral).  I want to minimize taxes.  I want taxes to be as low as possible and government as efficient as possible to provide all services that I believe are necessary.  I don't want to tax a penny more than is necessary to provide all those things tonton discussed earlier.  

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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