Science and Religion

Didn't the wonderful, always God-like in its actions Christian church frequently persecute, punish and even kill scientists who offered opinions other than its pre-determined concepts?

I'm sure I could find a few names...

Doesn't that same church now benefit greatly from the science those men and women developed despite the risks from the righteous actions of the Church?  

Actually, wasn't church architecture actually a very strong leader in science for many years?  Cathedrals wouldn't be possible without science.  Especially those wonderful stained-glassed storybooks on the walls.

Who was that guy who recently said God created bananas to be held and eaten by humans, but he was holding a genetically selected banana?  And he did this on camera (also science).  

Oh, yeah, this guy, trying to attack atheists:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2z-OLG0KyR4

Quote:

Originally Posted by BR 

SDW, what meaningful thing does Christianity have to say about the age of the Earth?

To you?  Nothing, I'm sure.  Which is perfectly fine with me.  

I wasn't attempting to beg the question.  If you'd prefer, we can rephrase that question to "who or what created the universe, if anyone or anything?"    

I agree there is no scientific evidence that a "who" created the universe.  Of course, there is also no evidence proving a "who" did not create the universe.  

BR, we're back to the problem that arises in any thread about religion:  You're an intolerant person.  Oh, you're perfectly tolerant when it comes to race, sexual orientations, etc.  But you're exceptionally intolerant towards people of faith, and of Christians in particular.   You reject all things unscientific and intangible, which is your right.  But you also go much further in that you cannot tolerate anyone who disagrees with you.  It doesn't matter how intelligent that person might be, or how they defy your absurd caricature of Christians...you attack him as stupid, ignorant and lazy.   

Perhaps one day we'll have a scientific explanation for your behavior.  

Quote:

Originally Posted by BR 

I didn't ask to me.  What meaningful thing does Christianity have to say for humanity about the age of the Earth?  

 

 

I didn't ask to me.  How does religion increase the body of human knowledge about the origins of the universe?

Of course you did.  You are the one that is asking, and will make the judgement as to what's meaningful.  Clearly, nothing will be meaningful from your point of view.  And that's not even a criticism...it's just the way you think, which as I said is perfectly fine.  

Correct. 

I have always found it somewhat amusing that people buy into organised religion, most (if not all) seem to be run along the lines of: "Do what we say, and you will be better off when you are dead".

Seems like a great way to control people....

Quote:

Originally Posted by groakes 

Seems like a great way to control people....

I know an even better way...and it's one that many of the anti-religious, anti-Christian (more specifically) and anti-God folks (especially on this forum) believe quite fervently in.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tonton 

Is government really used more widely than religion to control people? REALLY?

Yes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tonton 

I suggest you have another look at history.

I suggest you do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tonton 


You're never going to win this argument.

Of course not. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nightcrawler 

Quote:

Originally Posted by tonton 

My paternal grandmother became a Christian Scientist in her fifties. She was a lovely, upper class lady who owned a lovely home in Carmel-by-the-sea.
When she was in her mid-sixties, she caught the flu. She died of pneumonia.
MJ will maintain that that was her right to believe what she believed, even if it led to her death. I tend to agree. But somewhere along the line, there was someone who taught her those beliefs. Someone taught my Grandmother something ridiculously false, and deadly.
Should I have the right to teach your children, SDW, that smoking crack can make them happy? Even if I'm not the one giving them the crack, or telling them where to get it?

Huh? What does her christian faith have to do with her death?

Read again. She converted to Christian Science. That's the name of a specific cult of Christianity that rejects all modern medicine because they believe that if God wants you to live, you will live, and faith and prayer are the best and only righteous healers.

All she needed were some antibiotics and anti-inflammatories.

The anti-religious conveniently overlook the fact that the unholy alliance between religion and government resulted in oppression and destruction of life.

Today, the unholy alliance between corporations and government is wreaking havoc on mankind.

You will note that the constant is always government.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tonton 

 

Read again. She converted to Christian Science. That's the name of a specific cult of Christianity that rejects all modern medicine because they believe that if God wants you to live, you will live, and faith and prayer are the best and only righteous healers.

 

All she needed were some antibiotics and anti-inflammatories.

Would you, yourself, have violently forced her to take the medication you thought she needed even if it was contrary to her own deeply held beliefs?

Quote:

Originally Posted by jazzguru 

Quote:

Originally Posted by tonton 

 

Read again. She converted to Christian Science. That's the name of a specific cult of Christianity that rejects all modern medicine because they believe that if God wants you to live, you will live, and faith and prayer are the best and only righteous healers.

 

All she needed were some antibiotics and anti-inflammatories.

 

Would you, yourself, have violently forced her to take the medication you thought she needed even if it was contrary to her own deeply held beliefs?

Nope, but I would have beat the shit out of the person who preached to her that medicine was a sin.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tonton 

Nope, but I would have beat the shit out of the person who preached to her that medicine was a sin.

Are you just posturing or are you serious that you would inflict harm on another person simply for sharing their beliefs?

Quote:

Originally Posted by tonton

You're never going to win this argument. From the crusades to the jihadists, religion has been fucking the world with unstoppable persistence.

Of course he isn't going to win it with you. You are full or rage, bias and rants but you claim they are justified by "SCIENCE." Communism, aka Scientific Socialism has killed well over 100 million people by most estimates.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tonton

My paternal grandmother became a Christian Scientist in her fifties. She was a lovely, upper class lady who owned a lovely home in Carmel-by-the-sea.

When she was in her mid-sixties, she caught the flu. She died of pneumonia.

MJ will maintain that that was her right to believe what she believed, even if it led to her death. I tend to agree. But somewhere along the line, there was someone who taught her those beliefs. Someone taught my Grandmother something ridiculously false, and deadly.

Should I have the right to teach your children, SDW, that smoking crack can make them happy? Even if I'm not the one giving them the crack, or telling them where to get it?

If you don't believe in individual choice and rights, then what do you advocate? There are in fact people who try to get people hooked on drugs. No one can forsee all the outcomes of all interactions and those that are arrogant enough to believe they can are the authoritarian psychos who we must fear, especially when they seek the power of government to sanction their convictions.

Speaking of proof, do you have incontrovertible proof that the only reason that can be attributed to her death is her religion? Plenty of people die in their mid-60's. The bodies ability to repair itself declines pretty dramatically in the mid-50's. Could it have nothing to do with living in a foggy, dreary place in later life when most people her age go off to dryer and warmer climates? She likely wouldn't have caught the cold in the first place if she didn't live where she lived. You've certainly not eliminated all mitigating factors beyond religion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tonton

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nightcrawler

Quote:

Originally Posted by tonton

My paternal grandmother became a Christian Scientist in her fifties. She was a lovely, upper class lady who owned a lovely home in Carmel-by-the-sea.
When she was in her mid-sixties, she caught the flu. She died of pneumonia.
MJ will maintain that that was her right to believe what she believed, even if it led to her death. I tend to agree. But somewhere along the line, there was someone who taught her those beliefs. Someone taught my Grandmother something ridiculously false, and deadly.
Should I have the right to teach your children, SDW, that smoking crack can make them happy? Even if I'm not the one giving them the crack, or telling them where to get it?

Huh? What does her christian faith have to do with her death?

 

Read again. She converted to Christian Science. That's the name of a specific cult of Christianity that rejects all modern medicine because they believe that if God wants you to live, you will live, and faith and prayer are the best and only righteous healers.

 

All she needed were some antibiotics and anti-inflammatories.

That's what you presume. Pneumonia is a top 10 cause of death even with anti-biotics.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tonton

Quote:

Originally Posted by jazzguru

Quote:

Originally Posted by tonton

 

Read again. She converted to Christian Science. That's the name of a specific cult of Christianity that rejects all modern medicine because they believe that if God wants you to live, you will live, and faith and prayer are the best and only righteous healers.

 

All she needed were some antibiotics and anti-inflammatories.

 

Would you, yourself, have violently forced her to take the medication you thought she needed even if it was contrary to her own deeply held beliefs?

Nope, but I would have beat the shit out of the person who preached to her that medicine was a sin.

Clearly beating the shit out of people is scientific. You're ridiculous. You use science as a shield to justify, think and do whatever the hell you want. BR is no different. Human rights arose from religious beliefs. In a purely scientific setting, humans are no different than animals and whatever benefits the herd is what we do. If we have too much of one thing, kill it. If we suspect infection of something, kill it. Overpopulation, underproductive, weak or elderly, kill it.

Science has no problem with such concepts.

The real sickos are those who claim the desires of human rights in the name of science but when they have no real basis for their actions or beliefs, it comes down to rants, violence and non-reasoning. We've seen it over and over. There has never been a long term example of socialism working. The causes of it's failure aren't even assigned to it and you show that same blind devotion. It's a devotion worse than thinking you can avoid medicine with the flu. You, as an example, didn't even assign responsibility to Canada for the failure of its own health care system. You blame it on the U.S. That's insane and blind devotion and not at all science.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BR 

Sharing Christian Science beliefs is like yelling fire in a crowded theater.

Except, of course, that is it nothing like shouting "Fire!" in a crowded theater. Your histrionics and bigotry is showing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BR 

Sharing Christian Science beliefs is like yelling fire in a crowded theater.  It's like the tobacco companies claiming cigarette smoking is good for your health.  The only reason it's protected is because of the lunacy of religion getting special treatment.

This is straight up hate speech. You've gone off the deep end. I expect to read about you using assault weapons on a church someday soon. You've moved from disagreement to a rationale to harm others to protect society. I'll make sure not to write you when you're in prison.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BR 

Christian Science puts ignorant people in avoidable harm's way by convincing them that modern medicine is evil and less effective than praying.  Following such beliefs causes deaths that are completely avoidable.  It tricks people and puts them in danger.

Agreed.

This is still not anything like shouting "Fire!" in a crowded theater.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BR 

I established some parallels.  What you have done is said "no it's not" twice without any further commentary.  Explain.

Do you really, seriously believe that sharing Christian Science beliefs is the same thing or even closely analogous to shouting "Fire!" in a crowded theater?

(NOTE: This is a simple yes or no question. Anything beyond that will be clear attempt to distract, obfuscate or move the goal posts in some way.)

Yes or no: Do you really, seriously believe that sharing Christian Science beliefs is the same thing or even closely analogous to shouting "Fire!" in a crowded theater?

If you really do believe this, then I will explain to why it is not. But you must admit that you think it is first or admit you don't and that you were wrong to say it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BR 

Quote:

Originally Posted by trumptman 

 

This is straight up hate speech. You've gone off the deep end. I expect to read about you using assault weapons on a church someday soon. You've moved from disagreement to a rationale to harm others to protect society. I'll make sure not to write you when you're in prison.

 

Observe someone without the metacognition to realize it is he who has gone off the deep end--that I am receding quickly from his view because he is accelerating away from reality.  Who is the one who constantly brings up guns, violence, and death?  Not I.  It is he.  

 

I have not come up with a rationale to harm others.  In fact, it is the Christian "Scientists" and their defenders who have done so.  I am recommending that all people have access to the best modern medicine around, such that no one dies needlessly after having been utterly misled.  This sad, backwards man interprets that as me wanting to cause harm to others.  How he does the mental gymnastics to accomplish that is a mystery.  I hope science will one day understand it.  

Attempting to rationalize your hate speech doesn't make it any better. As for who is breaking with reality, I'm not the one declaring the Constitutional Bill of Rights to be harmful lunacy. That would be you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BR 

I see, ask a loaded question and demand a yes or no answer.

It's not loaded at all. You made a specific claim. I asked if you really seriously believe that claim. If anything got "loaded"m you loaded it from the start. This is a simple yes or no question. Your spitting, frothing and ranting notwithstanding.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BR 

I will answer and I will explain.  Sharing the belief that modern medicine cannot and should not be used to treat very curable or manageable illnesses such as diabetes and appendicitis is absolutely liking shouting fire in a crowded theater.  It is speech that is inciting harm to others.  If convinced, it puts anyone who gets sick in danger.  So absolutely, professing that belief (as well as the one that vaccines cause autism) is analogous to shouting "Fire!" in a crowded theater.

 

Go ahead and explain--or don't--I don't give a ****.  Your ridiculous game playing here just shows that you don't care about holding a conversation.  If you truly think I'm wrong, help me see why I am.  Don't play these childish "JUUUUUST SAY YES OR NO ONLY OR ELSE KTHXBYE" games.  

You, you're answer is "yes." Got it.

As I predicted, instead of answering directly you are attempting to obfuscate. But since you've come close enough to admitting that you actually think that someone "sharing Christian Science beliefs" is the same as shouting "Fire!" in a crowded theater, I will honor my offer and explain why this is a stupid analogy.

The proverbial "shouting 'Fire!' in a crowded theater." test was used to suggest that freedom of speech could be limited in cases where someone says something that creates an imminent risk of greater danger by their speech. A situation where the hearers would be unable to or in a very difficult position to validate and verify the claim being made and, as a result has an extremely short amount of time to react to the claimed danger possibly resulting in a panic that might create a much worse outcome.

Your example doesn't come even close to this.

A reasonable person can see the difference.

P.S. I really don't think you want to go down the path that sharing X belief about Y that causes harm to others and, if convinced puts them in danger.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MJ1970 

 

Do you really, seriously believe that sharing Christian Science beliefs is the same thing or even closely analogous to shouting "Fire!" in a crowded theater?

 

(NOTE: This is a simple yes or no question. Anything beyond that will be clear attempt to distract, obfuscate or move the goal posts in some way.)

 

Yes or no: Do you really, seriously believe that sharing Christian Science beliefs is the same thing or even closely analogous to shouting "Fire!" in a crowded theater?

 

If you really do believe this, then I will explain to why it is not. But you must admit that you think it is first or admit you don't and that you were wrong to say it.

I'll answer since BR won't.

"Yes" ... I believe it is an adequate analogy.

Now... why isn't it? (BR has already explained why it IS... in both cases one person is actively doing something that has the potential to harm others.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot 

I'll answer since BR won't.

 

"Yes" ... I believe it is an adequate analogy.

 

Now... why isn't it? (BR has already explained why it IS... in both cases one person is actively doing something that has the potential to harm others.)

In the case of yelling "fire" in a crowded theater, it is very difficult for people to have the time and resources to study the claim and decide whether to believe it or not. Most people will err on the side of caution and get out of there quickly in case the imminent threat to their lives is in fact real.

So, are you really saying that someone sharing his/her religious beliefs with others causes them to believe that there is an imminent threat to their lives in the same fashion as someone yelling "fire" in a crowded theater?

If I tell a crowded theater that I believe Jesus Christ is the Savior of mankind, are they going to run out the nearest exit and trample anyone who gets in their way?