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Science and Religion

post #1 of 138
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

It is a matter of historical fact that some of the world's greatest scientific minds have believed that God created the Earth.

 

But the hilarity of some internet atheist criticizing the mind and life of Sir Issac Newton is worth seeing, if only to confirm everything we know of modern atheism.

 

 

Being right about some things doesn't mean one is right about all things.  What specifically about my criticism of Newton do you take issue with?  He did stop his research that could have easily led to perturbation theory because he was satisfied that the hand of god held the planets in their orbits.   Specifically what about that criticism do you have a problem with?

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #2 of 138
Thread Starter 

SDW, what meaningful thing does Christianity have to say about the age of the Earth?

 

SDW, how does religion help us understand the origins of the universe?  Please don't beg the question when you phrase it like "who created the universe".  There is no evidence that there was a "who" that created anything.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #3 of 138

Didn't the wonderful, always God-like in its actions Christian church frequently persecute, punish and even kill scientists who offered opinions other than its pre-determined concepts?

 

I'm sure I could find a few names...

 

Doesn't that same church now benefit greatly from the science those men and women developed despite the risks from the righteous actions of the Church?  

 

Actually, wasn't church architecture actually a very strong leader in science for many years?  Cathedrals wouldn't be possible without science.  Especially those wonderful stained-glassed storybooks on the walls.

 

Who was that guy who recently said God created bananas to be held and eaten by humans, but he was holding a genetically selected banana?  And he did this on camera (also science).  

 

Oh, yeah, this guy, trying to attack atheists:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2z-OLG0KyR4

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

Reply

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

Reply
post #4 of 138
Maybe there is no GOD period.A figment of the imagination.
post #5 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

SDW, what meaningful thing does Christianity have to say about the age of the Earth?

 

To you?  Nothing, I'm sure.  Which is perfectly fine with me.  


 

 

Quote:
SDW, how does religion help us understand the origins of the universe?

 

To you?  It does not at all.   Which is again, perfectly fine with me.  

 

 

 

 

Quote:
 Please don't beg the question when you phrase it like "who created the universe".

 

I wasn't attempting to beg the question.  If you'd prefer, we can rephrase that question to "who or what created the universe, if anyone or anything?"    

 

 

 

Quote:
  There is no evidence that there was a "who" that created anything.

 

I agree there is no scientific evidence that a "who" created the universe.  Of course, there is also no evidence proving a "who" did not create the universe.  

 

BR, we're back to the problem that arises in any thread about religion:  You're an intolerant person.  Oh, you're perfectly tolerant when it comes to race, sexual orientations, etc.  But you're exceptionally intolerant towards people of faith, and of Christians in particular.   You reject all things unscientific and intangible, which is your right.  But you also go much further in that you cannot tolerate anyone who disagrees with you.  It doesn't matter how intelligent that person might be, or how they defy your absurd caricature of Christians...you attack him as stupid, ignorant and lazy.   

 

Perhaps one day we'll have a scientific explanation for your behavior.  

I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
Reply
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
Reply
post #6 of 138
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

 

To you?  Nothing, I'm sure.  Which is perfectly fine with me.  

I didn't ask to me.  What meaningful thing does Christianity have to say for humanity about the age of the Earth?  

 

 

Quote:
To you?  It does not at all.   Which is again, perfectly fine with me.  

I didn't ask to me.  How does religion increase the body of human knowledge about the origins of the universe?

 

 

 

Quote:
I agree there is no scientific evidence that a "who" created the universe.  Of course, there is also no evidence proving a "who" did not create the universe.  

There's no evidence that a giant purple dildo didn't create the universe, either.  There's no evidence that you aren't being secretly controlled by a band of gorillas with magic invisible remote controls either.  

 

You do not have to prove a negative.  He who makes the assertion must provide the support.  Otherwise, it falls to the null hypothesis.  

 Quote:

 

 

BR, we're back to the problem that arises in any thread about religion:  You're an intolerant person.  Oh, you're perfectly tolerant when it comes to race, sexual orientations, etc.  But you're exceptionally intolerant towards people of faith, and of Christians in particular.   You reject all things unscientific and intangible, which is your right.  But you also go much further in that you cannot tolerate anyone who disagrees with you.  It doesn't matter how intelligent that person might be, or how they defy your absurd caricature of Christians...you attack him as stupid, ignorant and lazy.   

 

Perhaps one day we'll have a scientific explanation for your behavior.  

I'm intolerant of lazy magical thinking, yes.  If you want to believe stupid shit, feel free.  Stop influencing society and politics with it.  You begin to affect others with your lazy magical thinking.  That's not OK.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #7 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

I didn't ask to me.  What meaningful thing does Christianity have to say for humanity about the age of the Earth?  

 

 

I didn't ask to me.  How does religion increase the body of human knowledge about the origins of the universe?

 

Of course you did.  You are the one that is asking, and will make the judgement as to what's meaningful.  Clearly, nothing will be meaningful from your point of view.  And that's not even a criticism...it's just the way you think, which as I said is perfectly fine.  

 

 

There's no evidence that a giant purple dildo didn't create the universe, either.  There's no evidence that you aren't being secretly controlled by a band of gorillas with magic invisible remote controls either.  

 

 

 

Correct. 

 

 

Quote:
You do not have to prove a negative. 

 

I am not asking you to.  

 

 

Quote:
He who makes the assertion must provide the support.

 

I am not making an assertion, at least not regarding the existence of God nor who/what created the universe.  

 

Quote:
 Otherwise, it falls to the null hypothesis.

 

To you, the default position is that there is no God.  Again, that's fine.  But that's not my thinking on the matter, nor others.  They are not less intelligent or lesser people as a result.  

 

 

 

Quote:
I'm intolerant of lazy magical thinking, yes. 

 

There's the caricature again.  What have I posted on this topic that shows "lazy magical thinking?"  I have acknowledged that the Earth is over 4 billion years old.  I have not rejected a single scientifically proven fact.  I do not deny evolution.  Are you really calling all believers like me "lazy" and ignorant because we believe in a being whose existence you cannot disprove?  

 

 

Quote:
If you want to believe stupid shit, feel free.

 

Come on now, be specific.  What stupid ****?  

 

 

Quote:
Stop influencing society and politics with it.  You begin to affect others with your lazy magical thinking.  That's not OK

 

I honestly don't see how someone like me believing in God influences society or politics at all, much less in a negative way.  The problem you have is that you think all believers substitute faith for science, which is just not true.  

 

I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
Reply
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
Reply
post #8 of 138
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

 

Of course you did.  You are the one that is asking, and will make the judgement as to what's meaningful.  Clearly, nothing will be meaningful from your point of view.  And that's not even a criticism...it's just the way you think, which as I said is perfectly fine.  

 

 

This sounds like an excuse for you not to answer the question.  Answer the question.  What meaningful contribution does Christianity have for the age of the Earth?  Pretend you aren't talking to me.  Answer the fucking question--or admit you don't have an answer.  Either way, stop dodging.

 

 

 

Quote:

I am not making an assertion, at least not regarding the existence of God nor who/what created the universe.  

 

By believing in a deity, you are making an assertion that the deity exists.  Thus, the burden of proof is on you to prove that existence.  Your repeated claims that I haven't disproved the existence of a deity MEAN NOTHING, BECAUSE IT IS NOT UP TO ME TO DISPROVE EXISTENCE OR TO PROVE NON-EXISTENCE.  

 

Gotta jet, but I'll respond to the rest later.  Seriously though, you need to really study up on the philosophical burden of proof.  You are failing spectacularly there.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #9 of 138

I have always found it somewhat amusing that people buy into organised religion, most (if not all) seem to be run along the lines of: "Do what we say, and you will be better off when you are dead".

 

Seems like a great way to control people....

post #10 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by groakes View Post

Seems like a great way to control people....

 

I know an even better way...and it's one that many of the anti-religious, anti-Christian (more specifically) and anti-God folks (especially on this forum) believe quite fervently in.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #11 of 138
Is government really used more widely than religion to control people? REALLY?

I suggest you have another look at history.
post #12 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Is government really used more widely than religion to control people? REALLY?

 

Yes.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

I suggest you have another look at history.

 

I suggest you do.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #13 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Is government really used more widely than religion to control people? REALLY?

Yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

I suggest you have another look at history.

I suggest you do.

You're never going to win this argument. From the crusades to the jihadists, religion has been fucking the world with unstoppable persistence.
post #14 of 138
Seen on the internets:

Renaissance Conservatives, with a more modern MO:

post #15 of 138
Thread Starter 

Hah, so true.  Similarly, what Pat Robertson finally came out and said today about the dumbass Young-Earthers eerily mimics this old SMBC comic.

 

 

20100919.gif

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #16 of 138
Thread Starter 

And here's the rest, SDW.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

To you, the default position is that there is no God.  Again, that's fine.  But that's not my thinking on the matter, nor others.  They are not less intelligent or lesser people as a result.  

 

The default position isn't that there is no deity.  The default position is that without extraordinary evidence for the extraordinary claim that a deity exists, it is not worth lending the idea any more credence than you would give to the idea of an invisible pink unicorn floating above your house--to anyone who approaches the situation with an ounce of critical thought, anyway.

 

So, if one doesn't take that position, in the particular realm of rationality, yes, that person is less intelligent.  You would have no qualms calling someone who believes in a flat earth less intelligent in the realm of geography.  Well, you are less intelligent in the realm of rationality.

 

Quote:

 

 

 

 

There's the caricature again.  What have I posted on this topic that shows "lazy magical thinking?"  I have acknowledged that the Earth is over 4 billion years old.  I have not rejected a single scientifically proven fact.  I do not deny evolution.  Are you really calling all believers like me "lazy" and ignorant because we believe in a being whose existence you cannot disprove?  

 

 

 

 

 


 If you have to prove the nonexistence of every asserted supernatural being (mind you neglecting the entire issue of defining supernatural adequately), it instantaneously spirals into absurdity.  The great invisible yellow multiversal squid with his majestic triangluar square beak snuck up behind your god and inked him, causing such a fright that your god shat out the universe.  Prove it didn't happen that way.  
 
Congratulations, you don't deny evolution.  You just enable others to do so by giving them a magical thinking exemption.  I'm glad you can compartmentalize your irrationality and failure to understand the burden of proof.  Others can't do that so well.  One of them is the new head of the House Science and Technology Committee.  You and people like you enable that.  We have a fucking Christian "Scientist" leading the House Science and Technology committee.  ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME?  
 

 

Quote:
From wikipedia:
 
Christian Scientists believe that sickness and disease are the result of fearignorance, or sin, and should be healed through prayer or introspection. Combined with a belief that the use of medicine is incompatible with Christian Science healing methods, this has led to outbreaks of preventable disease and a number of deaths.[3] Its claim that sickness can be healed through prayer rather than medicine, its rejection of science as illusory, and its attempts to present itself as science make Christian Science a pseudoscience, in the view of philosopher John R. Searle. [4]

 

You enable this shit, SDW.  You and people like you.  You crack open the door to irrational, magical thinking.  These folks push their way through.  

 

Quote:
 The problem you have is that you think all believers substitute faith for science, which is just not true.  

 

Nope.  You just promote irrational thought and provide cover for the lunatics setting our civilization back years and years.  Of course, don't get all high and mighty with me about how much you accept science.  You still don't think C02 is a greenhouse gas, let alone that global climate change is real.  

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #17 of 138
My paternal grandmother became a Christian Scientist in her fifties. She was a lovely, upper class lady who owned a lovely home in Carmel-by-the-sea.

When she was in her mid-sixties, she caught the flu. She died of pneumonia.

MJ will maintain that that was her right to believe what she believed, even if it led to her death. I tend to agree. But somewhere along the line, there was someone who taught her those beliefs. Someone taught my Grandmother something ridiculously false, and deadly.

Should I have the right to teach your children, SDW, that smoking crack can make them happy? Even if I'm not the one giving them the crack, or telling them where to get it?
post #18 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

My paternal grandmother became a Christian Scientist in her fifties. She was a lovely, upper class lady who owned a lovely home in Carmel-by-the-sea.
When she was in her mid-sixties, she caught the flu. She died of pneumonia.
MJ will maintain that that was her right to believe what she believed, even if it led to her death. I tend to agree. But somewhere along the line, there was someone who taught her those beliefs. Someone taught my Grandmother something ridiculously false, and deadly.
Should I have the right to teach your children, SDW, that smoking crack can make them happy? Even if I'm not the one giving them the crack, or telling them where to get it?

Huh? What does her christian faith have to do with her death?
I disagree, and could prove you're wrong; care to offer any proof that you're not wrong?
Reply
I disagree, and could prove you're wrong; care to offer any proof that you're not wrong?
Reply
post #19 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post


You're never going to win this argument.

 

Of course not. 1rolleyes.gif

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #20 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightcrawler View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

My paternal grandmother became a Christian Scientist in her fifties. She was a lovely, upper class lady who owned a lovely home in Carmel-by-the-sea.
When she was in her mid-sixties, she caught the flu. She died of pneumonia.
MJ will maintain that that was her right to believe what she believed, even if it led to her death. I tend to agree. But somewhere along the line, there was someone who taught her those beliefs. Someone taught my Grandmother something ridiculously false, and deadly.
Should I have the right to teach your children, SDW, that smoking crack can make them happy? Even if I'm not the one giving them the crack, or telling them where to get it?

Huh? What does her christian faith have to do with her death?

 


Read again. She converted to Christian Science. That's the name of a specific cult of Christianity that rejects all modern medicine because they believe that if God wants you to live, you will live, and faith and prayer are the best and only righteous healers.

 

All she needed were some antibiotics and anti-inflammatories.

post #21 of 138

The anti-religious conveniently overlook the fact that the unholy alliance between religion and government resulted in oppression and destruction of life.

 

Today, the unholy alliance between corporations and government is wreaking havoc on mankind.

 

You will note that the constant is always government.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #22 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

 


Read again. She converted to Christian Science. That's the name of a specific cult of Christianity that rejects all modern medicine because they believe that if God wants you to live, you will live, and faith and prayer are the best and only righteous healers.

 

All she needed were some antibiotics and anti-inflammatories.

 

Would you, yourself, have violently forced her to take the medication you thought she needed even if it was contrary to her own deeply held beliefs?

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #23 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

 


Read again. She converted to Christian Science. That's the name of a specific cult of Christianity that rejects all modern medicine because they believe that if God wants you to live, you will live, and faith and prayer are the best and only righteous healers.

 

All she needed were some antibiotics and anti-inflammatories.

 

Would you, yourself, have violently forced her to take the medication you thought she needed even if it was contrary to her own deeply held beliefs?


Nope, but I would have beat the shit out of the person who preached to her that medicine was a sin.

post #24 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post


Nope, but I would have beat the shit out of the person who preached to her that medicine was a sin.

 

Are you just posturing or are you serious that you would inflict harm on another person simply for sharing their beliefs?

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #25 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post
You're never going to win this argument. From the crusades to the jihadists, religion has been fucking the world with unstoppable persistence.

 

Of course he isn't going to win it with you. You are full or rage, bias and rants but you claim they are justified by "SCIENCE." Communism, aka Scientific Socialism has killed well over 100 million people by most estimates.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

My paternal grandmother became a Christian Scientist in her fifties. She was a lovely, upper class lady who owned a lovely home in Carmel-by-the-sea.

When she was in her mid-sixties, she caught the flu. She died of pneumonia.

MJ will maintain that that was her right to believe what she believed, even if it led to her death. I tend to agree. But somewhere along the line, there was someone who taught her those beliefs. Someone taught my Grandmother something ridiculously false, and deadly.

Should I have the right to teach your children, SDW, that smoking crack can make them happy? Even if I'm not the one giving them the crack, or telling them where to get it?

 

If you don't believe in individual choice and rights, then what do you advocate? There are in fact people who try to get people hooked on drugs. No one can forsee all the outcomes of all interactions and those that are arrogant enough to believe they can are the authoritarian psychos who we must fear, especially when they seek the power of government to sanction their convictions.

 

Speaking of proof, do you have incontrovertible proof that the only reason that can be attributed to her death is her religion? Plenty of people die in their mid-60's. The bodies ability to repair itself declines pretty dramatically in the mid-50's. Could it have nothing to do with living in a foggy, dreary place in later life when most people her age go off to dryer and warmer climates? She likely wouldn't have caught the cold in the first place if she didn't live where she lived. You've certainly not eliminated all mitigating factors beyond religion.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightcrawler View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

My paternal grandmother became a Christian Scientist in her fifties. She was a lovely, upper class lady who owned a lovely home in Carmel-by-the-sea.
When she was in her mid-sixties, she caught the flu. She died of pneumonia.
MJ will maintain that that was her right to believe what she believed, even if it led to her death. I tend to agree. But somewhere along the line, there was someone who taught her those beliefs. Someone taught my Grandmother something ridiculously false, and deadly.
Should I have the right to teach your children, SDW, that smoking crack can make them happy? Even if I'm not the one giving them the crack, or telling them where to get it?

Huh? What does her christian faith have to do with her death?

 


Read again. She converted to Christian Science. That's the name of a specific cult of Christianity that rejects all modern medicine because they believe that if God wants you to live, you will live, and faith and prayer are the best and only righteous healers.

 

All she needed were some antibiotics and anti-inflammatories.

 

That's what you presume. Pneumonia is a top 10 cause of death even with anti-biotics.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

 


Read again. She converted to Christian Science. That's the name of a specific cult of Christianity that rejects all modern medicine because they believe that if God wants you to live, you will live, and faith and prayer are the best and only righteous healers.

 

All she needed were some antibiotics and anti-inflammatories.

 

Would you, yourself, have violently forced her to take the medication you thought she needed even if it was contrary to her own deeply held beliefs?


Nope, but I would have beat the shit out of the person who preached to her that medicine was a sin.

 

Clearly beating the shit out of people is scientific. You're ridiculous. You use science as a shield to justify, think and do whatever the hell you want. BR is no different. Human rights arose from religious beliefs. In a purely scientific setting, humans are no different than animals and whatever benefits the herd is what we do. If we have too much of one thing, kill it. If we suspect infection of something, kill it. Overpopulation, underproductive, weak or elderly, kill it.

 

Science has no problem with such concepts.

 

The real sickos are those who claim the desires of human rights in the name of science but when they have no real basis for their actions or beliefs, it comes down to rants, violence and non-reasoning. We've seen it over and over. There has never been a long term example of socialism working. The causes of it's failure aren't even assigned to it and you show that same blind devotion. It's a devotion worse than thinking you can avoid medicine with the flu. You, as an example, didn't even assign responsibility to Canada for the failure of its own health care system. You blame it on the U.S. That's insane and blind devotion and not at all science.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #26 of 138
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

 

Are you just posturing or are you serious that you would inflict harm on another person simply for sharing their beliefs?

Sharing Christian Science beliefs is like yelling fire in a crowded theater.  It's like the tobacco companies claiming cigarette smoking is good for your health.  The only reason it's protected is because of the lunacy of religion getting special treatment.


Edited by BR - 11/29/12 at 10:24am

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #27 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Sharing Christian Science beliefs is like yelling fire in a crowded theater.

 

Except, of course, that is it nothing like shouting "Fire!" in a crowded theater. Your histrionics and bigotry is showing.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #28 of 138
Thread Starter 

Christian Science puts ignorant people in avoidable harm's way by convincing them that modern medicine is evil and less effective than praying.  Following such beliefs causes deaths that are completely avoidable.  It tricks people and puts them in danger.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #29 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Sharing Christian Science beliefs is like yelling fire in a crowded theater.  It's like the tobacco companies claiming cigarette smoking is good for your health.  The only reason it's protected is because of the lunacy of religion getting special treatment.

 

This is straight up hate speech. You've gone off the deep end. I expect to read about you using assault weapons on a church someday soon. You've moved from disagreement to a rationale to harm others to protect society. I'll make sure not to write you when you're in prison.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #30 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Christian Science puts ignorant people in avoidable harm's way by convincing them that modern medicine is evil and less effective than praying.  Following such beliefs causes deaths that are completely avoidable.  It tricks people and puts them in danger.

 

Agreed.

 

This is still not anything like shouting "Fire!" in a crowded theater.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #31 of 138
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

 

This is straight up hate speech. You've gone off the deep end. I expect to read about you using assault weapons on a church someday soon. You've moved from disagreement to a rationale to harm others to protect society. I'll make sure not to write you when you're in prison.

 

Observe someone without the metacognition to realize it is he who has gone off the deep end--that I am receding quickly from his view because he is accelerating away from reality.  Who is the one who constantly brings up guns, violence, and death?  Not I.  It is he.  

 

I have not come up with a rationale to harm others.  In fact, it is the Christian "Scientists" and their defenders who have done so.  I am recommending that all people have access to the best modern medicine around, such that no one dies needlessly after having been utterly misled.  This sad, backwards man interprets that as me wanting to cause harm to others.  How he does the mental gymnastics to accomplish that is a mystery.  I hope science will one day understand it.  

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #32 of 138
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

 

Agreed.

 

This is still not anything like shouting "Fire!" in a crowded theater.

I established some parallels.  What you have done is said "no it's not" twice without any further commentary.  Explain.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #33 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

I established some parallels.  What you have done is said "no it's not" twice without any further commentary.  Explain.

 

Do you really, seriously believe that sharing Christian Science beliefs is the same thing or even closely analogous to shouting "Fire!" in a crowded theater?

 

(NOTE: This is a simple yes or no question. Anything beyond that will be clear attempt to distract, obfuscate or move the goal posts in some way.)

 

Yes or no: Do you really, seriously believe that sharing Christian Science beliefs is the same thing or even closely analogous to shouting "Fire!" in a crowded theater?

 

If you really do believe this, then I will explain to why it is not. But you must admit that you think it is first or admit you don't and that you were wrong to say it.


Edited by MJ1970 - 11/29/12 at 12:13pm

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #34 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

 

This is straight up hate speech. You've gone off the deep end. I expect to read about you using assault weapons on a church someday soon. You've moved from disagreement to a rationale to harm others to protect society. I'll make sure not to write you when you're in prison.

 

Observe someone without the metacognition to realize it is he who has gone off the deep end--that I am receding quickly from his view because he is accelerating away from reality.  Who is the one who constantly brings up guns, violence, and death?  Not I.  It is he.  

 

I have not come up with a rationale to harm others.  In fact, it is the Christian "Scientists" and their defenders who have done so.  I am recommending that all people have access to the best modern medicine around, such that no one dies needlessly after having been utterly misled.  This sad, backwards man interprets that as me wanting to cause harm to others.  How he does the mental gymnastics to accomplish that is a mystery.  I hope science will one day understand it.  

 

Attempting to rationalize your hate speech doesn't make it any better. As for who is breaking with reality, I'm not the one declaring the Constitutional Bill of Rights to be harmful lunacy. That would be you.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #35 of 138
Thread Starter 

http://www.kval.com/news/local/Parents-plead-guilty-in-faith-healing-death-170277456.html

 

 

 

Quote:

Sprout died after his appendix burst in December. Lane County Sheriff's Office deputies arrested Brandi and Russel Bellew (Sprout's mother and step-father) in February after a seven-week investigation into the death. 

"The investigation has determined that medical professionals believe that the illness he suffered was treatable if he had been provided medical care," said Capt. Byron Trapp from Lane County Sheriff's Office.

The Bellews are members of the "general assembly and church of the firstborn,"  a church that believes in healing through faith and prayer rather than seeking medical care.

"That is what the arrests are based on, is the withholding of medical care in this case that allowed Austin to die." Capt. Trapp said.

Last year, the Oregon legislature changed the law regarding faith healing. Now, faith-based healing can no longer be used as a defense against manslaughter charges.

Encouraging a practice that kills children has nothing to do with the First Amendment and is rightfully illegal in many states.  Let me guess, you wouldn't want those parents arrested and prosecuted?  You do realize that there are noted exceptions to the First Amendment, right?  Speech that incites violence isn't allowed.  Speech that causes an immediate harm to others isn't allowed.  Well, I think that espousing views that medical science cannot and should not heal appendicitis , pneumonia, diabetes, and a whole host of other treatable illnesses is directly putting others in harm's way.  Not only should parents who refuse to treat their children be prosecuted, but also those who fraudulently convince adults to stop seeking treatment, too.  Those that convinced tonton's aunt to not go to the doctor have a hand in her death--and they should be held accountable for that.

 

 

 

Quote:
Attempting to rationalize your hate speech doesn't make it any better.

 

 

You are projecting as usual.  There is one person here who uses the most violent imagery (always talking out of your ass about how some liberal is just itching to go on a shooting spree) and is constantly spreading hate about half of society--that person is you, Trumpetman. 

 

 

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #36 of 138
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

 

Do you really, seriously believe that sharing Christian Science beliefs is the same thing or even closely analogous to shouting "Fire!" in a crowded theater?

 

(NOTE: This is a simple yes or no question. Anything beyond that will be clear attempt to distract, obfuscate or move the goal posts in some way.)

 

Yes or no: Do you really, seriously believe that sharing Christian Science beliefs is the same thing or even closely analogous to shouting "Fire!" in a crowded theater?

 

If you really do believe this, then I will explain to why it is not. But you must admit that you think it is first or admit you don't and that you were wrong to say it.

I see, ask a loaded question and demand a yes or no answer.  Your rhetoric is bullshit here and you know it.

 

I will answer and I will explain.  Sharing the belief that modern medicine cannot and should not be used to treat very curable or manageable illnesses such as diabetes and appendicitis is absolutely liking shouting fire in a crowded theater.  It is speech that is inciting harm to others.  If convinced, it puts anyone who gets sick in danger.  So absolutely, professing that belief (as well as the one that vaccines cause autism) is analogous to shouting "Fire!" in a crowded theater.

 

Go ahead and explain--or don't--I don't give a ****.  Your ridiculous game playing here just shows that you don't care about holding a conversation.  If you truly think I'm wrong, help me see why I am.  Don't play these childish "JUUUUUST SAY YES OR NO ONLY OR ELSE KTHXBYE" games.  

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #37 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

I see, ask a loaded question and demand a yes or no answer.

 

It's not loaded at all. You made a specific claim. I asked if you really seriously believe that claim. If anything got "loaded"m you loaded it from the start. This is a simple yes or no question. Your spitting, frothing and ranting notwithstanding.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

I will answer and I will explain.  Sharing the belief that modern medicine cannot and should not be used to treat very curable or manageable illnesses such as diabetes and appendicitis is absolutely liking shouting fire in a crowded theater.  It is speech that is inciting harm to others.  If convinced, it puts anyone who gets sick in danger.  So absolutely, professing that belief (as well as the one that vaccines cause autism) is analogous to shouting "Fire!" in a crowded theater.

 

Go ahead and explain--or don't--I don't give a ****.  Your ridiculous game playing here just shows that you don't care about holding a conversation.  If you truly think I'm wrong, help me see why I am.  Don't play these childish "JUUUUUST SAY YES OR NO ONLY OR ELSE KTHXBYE" games.  

 

You, you're answer is "yes." Got it.

 

As I predicted, instead of answering directly you are attempting to obfuscate. But since you've come close enough to admitting that you actually think that someone "sharing Christian Science beliefs" is the same as shouting "Fire!" in a crowded theater, I will honor my offer and explain why this is a stupid analogy.

 

The proverbial "shouting 'Fire!' in a crowded theater." test was used to suggest that freedom of speech could be limited in cases where someone says something that creates an imminent risk of greater danger by their speech. A situation where the hearers would be unable to or in a very difficult position to validate and verify the claim being made and, as a result has an extremely short amount of time to react to the claimed danger possibly resulting in a panic that might create a much worse outcome.

 

Your example doesn't come even close to this.

 

A reasonable person can see the difference.

 

 

P.S. I really don't think you want to go down the path that sharing X belief about Y that causes harm to others and, if convinced puts them in danger.


Edited by MJ1970 - 11/29/12 at 3:06pm

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #38 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

 

Do you really, seriously believe that sharing Christian Science beliefs is the same thing or even closely analogous to shouting "Fire!" in a crowded theater?

 

(NOTE: This is a simple yes or no question. Anything beyond that will be clear attempt to distract, obfuscate or move the goal posts in some way.)

 

Yes or no: Do you really, seriously believe that sharing Christian Science beliefs is the same thing or even closely analogous to shouting "Fire!" in a crowded theater?

 

If you really do believe this, then I will explain to why it is not. But you must admit that you think it is first or admit you don't and that you were wrong to say it.

I'll answer since BR won't.

 

"Yes" ... I believe it is an adequate analogy.

 

Now... why isn't it? (BR has already explained why it IS... in both cases one person is actively doing something that has the potential to harm others.)

From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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post #39 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

I'll answer since BR won't.

 

"Yes" ... I believe it is an adequate analogy.

 

Now... why isn't it? (BR has already explained why it IS... in both cases one person is actively doing something that has the potential to harm others.)

 

In the case of yelling "fire" in a crowded theater, it is very difficult for people to have the time and resources to study the claim and decide whether to believe it or not. Most people will err on the side of caution and get out of there quickly in case the imminent threat to their lives is in fact real.

 

So, are you really saying that someone sharing his/her religious beliefs with others causes them to believe that there is an imminent threat to their lives in the same fashion as someone yelling "fire" in a crowded theater?

 

If I tell a crowded theater that I believe Jesus Christ is the Savior of mankind, are they going to run out the nearest exit and trample anyone who gets in their way?

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #40 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Nope, but I would have beat the shit out of the person who preached to her that medicine was a sin.

Are you just posturing or are you serious that you would inflict harm on another person simply for sharing their beliefs?

When she died because of it?

If I preached to your kids that adding rat poison to their kool-aid would bring them closer to god, and they did it, and died, you wouldn't come after me with a baseball bat?
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