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post #121 of 138
Let me be more specific.

It is illegal to be an atheist in the Kentucky Homeland Security Department who doesn't support the public display of statements against their belief.

Happy now?

And the wordingnof the plaque does require the belief that there is a god. You cannot claim otherwise.
post #122 of 138
Thread Starter 

We are talking to someone who thinks that saying "I believe there is a god" is not asserting the existence of a deity.  That's some real special logic right there.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #123 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Let me be more specific.
It is illegal to be an atheist in the Kentucky Homeland Security Department who doesn't support the public display of statements against their belief.
Happy now?

 

That's not true either.  As an employee, one has the right not to support the display of the plaque.  As far as I can tell, the law doesn't stop one from expressing his opinion.  It does, however, require that the plaque be displayed.  

 

 

Quote:

And the wordingnof the plaque does require the belief that there is a god. You cannot claim otherwise.

 

 

I certainly understand the argument, but how does it "require" it?  The issue, tonton, is whether the government has a right to engage in a religious expression such as this.  All I am saying is that I honestly don't know if it does, or if it doesn't...and that it's not the slam dunk you seem to think.  

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

We are talking to someone who thinks that saying "I believe there is a god" is not asserting the existence of a deity.  That's some real special logic right there.

 

You clearly do not understand the definition of the word "assertion."  This is interesting, as I even provided you with said definition.  What's amusing to me is that you're portraying me as some kind of crazy, deluded and stupid wackjob..all because, like 96% of the American people, I say "I believe in God."  

 

You'll no doubt next link to the definition for argumentum ad populum,.  Of course, that won't change the absurdity and stunning arrogance you show in calling almost everyone (other than you and other random internet atheists) stupid.  

I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #124 of 138
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

 

That's not true either.  As an employee, one has the right not to support the display of the plaque.  As far as I can tell, the law doesn't stop one from expressing his opinion.  It does, however, require that the plaque be displayed.  

 

 

 

I certainly understand the argument, but how does it "require" it?  The issue, tonton, is whether the government has a right to engage in a religious expression such as this.  All I am saying is that I honestly don't know if it does, or if it doesn't...and that it's not the slam dunk you seem to think.  

 

 

You clearly do not understand the definition of the word "assertion."  This is interesting, as I even provided you with said definition.  What's amusing to me is that you're portraying me as some kind of crazy, deluded and stupid wackjob..all because, like 96% of the American people, I say "I believe in God."  

 

You'll no doubt next link to the definition for argumentum ad populum,.  Of course, that won't change the absurdity and stunning arrogance you show in calling almost everyone (other than you and other random internet atheists) stupid.  

With regard to deities, yes, that many people are stupid.  Though, your 96% figure is way way off.  And preemptively disproving your argument with argumentum ad populum doesn't suddenly validate your argument, especially when you use an argument from incredulity and ad hominem simultaneously in the next sentence.

 

You are playing the worst of semantics games with your "I believe in god" not being the same as "god exists" rhetoric.  The meaning is identical.  

 

"I believe in god" means that "there is a thing that exists, which is called god, and I believe in it."  Unless you actually admit to believing in something that you do not think exists, you are damn well making an assertion.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #125 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

With regard to deities, yes, that many people are stupid. 

 

The arrogance is really extraordinary.  

 

 

Quote:
 Though, your 96% figure is way way off.

 

I don't know the exact number, but it's not "way off."  This 2008 article shows that 92% do.  Pretty close, I'd say.  

 

 

 

Quote:
  And preemptively disproving your argument with argumentum ad populum doesn't suddenly validate your argument, especially when you use an argument from incredulity and ad hominem simultaneously in the next sentence.

 

I'm simply saying that I find your claim that an overwhelming majority of Americans are stupid based on the fact they believe in God to be arrogant in the extreme...almost laughably so.  How can one honestly think he's more far more intelligent than that many people?  How can one be so closed-minded that he simply cannot accept that people come to different conclusions about the nature and existence of God?  

 

 

 

Quote:

You are playing the worst of semantics games with your "I believe in god" not being the same as "god exists" rhetoric.  The meaning is identical.  

 

 

"I believe in god" means that "there is a thing that exists, which is called god, and I believe in it."  Unless you actually admit to believing in something that you do not think exists, you are damn well making an assertion.

 

No, it's not identical.  One is a statement of personal belief.  The other is an assertion.  I believe lots of things (both religious and otherwise) that you or another person might agree or disagree with.  That doesn't mean I'm going to assert them.  Typically, when I assert something you'll know it, because I'll label it as a fact.  Given that we're dealing with a forum where people express their opinions, we don't always post "I believe" in front of belief statements, but that doesn't make beliefs and assertions the same.  

 

Let's use another example.

 

Quote:
I am typing on a Dell laptop right now.

 

 This is an assertion.  It also happens to be a fact, though as with many assertions, proof is not readily provided.  

 

 

 

Quote:
I don't think this Dell is as good as my Mac.  

 

This is a statement of opinion, of belief.  It's a conclusion I've reached.  

 

 

What you're doing is running around screaming that I'm an idiot for thinking my Macbook is better (as are all others who think similarly).  The only reason is that you don't think there is sufficient "evidence" for my belief, as if you have any right to judge others.  

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post #126 of 138

Fox's Bill O recently said that Christianity isn't a religion, that it's a philosophy.  

 

If so, we could help the economy greatly by renouncing the tax-exempt status of churches.

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

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Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

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post #127 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergermeister View Post

If so, we could help the economy greatly by renouncing the tax-exempt status of churches.

 

No it wouldn't. 1rolleyes.gif

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #128 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

....  What's amusing to me is that you're portraying me as some kind of crazy, deluded and stupid wackjob..all because, like 96% of the American people, I say "I believe in God."  

  

 

 

It could be said that, a couple thousand years ago, 96% (or more) of people on the earth believed the earth was a flat plane... possibly infinite, possibly with edges way off yonder.

 

Just because so many people "believed" it didn't make it true... And those who still believe it are rightly viewed as crazy, deluded, stupid wackjobs... no matter how many other people believe it along with them.

 

 

If you believe in "God", then I will consider those beliefs to be crazy, deluded and stupid... that doesn't mean i think ALL of your opinions and thoughts fall into that category... but if you wish to make public policy or decisions that affect others based on that belief in a god, then I will fight that... because decisions that affect others should be based on fact, or at least backed with evidence.

From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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post #129 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

It could be said that, a couple thousand years ago, 96% (or more) of people on the earth believed the earth was a flat plane... possibly infinite, possibly with edges way off yonder.

 

Just because so many people "believed" it didn't make it true... And those who still believe it are rightly viewed as crazy, deluded, stupid wackjobs... no matter how many other people believe it along with them.

 

This would be a fine analogy if God had/has been disproven to exist (as the earth was disproven to be flat.) Until that happens, this analogy is a poor one.

 

Now, you are absolutely correct that the number (or percentage) of people that believe a thing to be true doesn't make it true.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #130 of 138
Don't worry people, you won't loose anything when you decide to give it a shot, read the new testament and see if it makes sense to you.
post #131 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

 

 

It could be said that, a couple thousand years ago, 96% (or more) of people on the earth believed the earth was a flat plane... possibly infinite, possibly with edges way off yonder.

 

Just because so many people "believed" it didn't make it true... And those who still believe it are rightly viewed as crazy, deluded, stupid wackjobs... no matter how many other people believe it along with them.

 

 

If you believe in "God", then I will consider those beliefs to be crazy, deluded and stupid... that doesn't mean i think ALL of your opinions and thoughts fall into that category... but if you wish to make public policy or decisions that affect others based on that belief in a god, then I will fight that... because decisions that affect others should be based on fact, or at least backed with evidence.

 

You are missing the point.  I am not claiming God exists because 90+% of people believe in God.  Rather, I find the fact that BR calls all of these people idiotic 

to be stunningly arrogant and even laughable.  It might actually be the most arrogant thing I've ever seen.  Really.  

 

 

Quote:

but if you wish to make public policy or decisions that affect others based on that belief in a god,

 

 

I honestly don't even know what that means.  What kind of law and/or policy do you mean...the Kentucky law?  And why do you oppose any policy predicated on the existence of God?   

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

 

This would be a fine analogy if God had/has been disproven to exist (as the earth was disproven to be flat.) Until that happens, this analogy is a poor one.

 

Now, you are absolutely correct that the number (or percentage) of people that believe a thing to be true doesn't make it true.

 

1.  I explained it the same way.  It was ignored.  

 

2.  Funny how that only applies to those who disagree with the liberal cabal here.  BR is over in the Romney thread arguing that tax increases are good policy because people supported them on election day.  

I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #132 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrus View Post

Don't worry people, you won't loose anything when you decide to give it a shot, read the new testament and see if it makes sense to you.
Yes, do that.

What you shouldn't do is to let some pastor/priest/denomination with an anti-gay, misogynist (or even libertarian) agenda tell you how to make "sense" of it. There are a lot of wise words in the NT. there are a lot of idiotic interpretations of it.

And by the way, ignore the obsolete laws of the OT, as Jesus himself points out that that's not the point.
post #133 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

What you shouldn't do is to let some pastor/priest/denomination with an anti-gay, misogynist (or even libertarian) agenda tell you how to make "sense" of it.

 

He shouldn't have trouble finding a pastor that isn't anti-gay and mysogynistic.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

...(or even libertarian)...

 

Indeed, don't let anyone who advocates liberty influence your thinking. Nothing good can come from that1rolleyes.gif

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #134 of 138
Quote:

You are missing the point.  I am not claiming God exists because 90+% of people believe in God.  Rather, I find the fact that BR calls all of these people idiotic 

to be stunningly arrogant and even laughable.  It might actually be the most arrogant thing I've ever seen.  Really.  

 

 

Now just an interesting side note if you look at the arbitrary values of intelligence (IQ) we assign people, that makes a lot of sense. With the median intelligence being 100, only 2% of the general population is eligible to join high IQ societies like Mensa, whose entry requirement stand at 130. If you're speaking as someone of that intelligence you can very well claim that 98% of the population are idiots just because. No it doesn't make him arrogant, it might hurt your feelings to be consigned with the lower intellect but that does not make it any less true.

post #135 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by dnd0ps View Post

 

Now just an interesting side note if you look at the arbitrary values of intelligence (IQ) we assign people, that makes a lot of sense. With the median intelligence being 100, only 2% of the general population is eligible to join high IQ societies like Mensa, whose entry requirement stand at 130. If you're speaking as someone of that intelligence you can very well claim that 98% of the population are idiots just because. No it doesn't make him arrogant, it might hurt your feelings to be consigned with the lower intellect but that does not make it any less true.

 

lol.gif  What a completely ridiculous post.  Let's try again:  BR is not claiming or implying that he, statistically speaking, is smarter than a high percentage of the people in this nation and/or on this planet.  That claim might have some truth to it.  In fact, given your writing above, one could surmise you fit the same category.  No, what BR is saying is that the 96% of people that believe in God in this country are idiotic or at least significantly less intelligent solely because they believe in God.  

 

And here's the best irony I've seen in a while:  BR has accused me of making an assertion (I've not) for which he demands scientific evidence.  He then turns around and makes a clear assertion himself, that being "anyone who believes in God is less intelligent."  And what does he base this assertion on?  IQ test comparison?  SAT scores? Multiple Intelligence Assessments?  Any measurable data whatsoever?  No!  He bases it on his own personal opinion alone, with no evidence whatsoever.  He doesn't even provide evidence of a correlation between low intelligence and believing in a supreme being.  

 

LOVE it.  


Edited by SDW2001 - 12/6/12 at 7:38am
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #136 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

And here's the best irony I've seen in a while:  BR has accused me of making an assertion (I've not) for which he demands scientific evidence.  He then turns around and makes a clear assertion himself, that being "anyone who believes in God is less intelligent."  And what does he base this assertion on?  IQ test comparison?  SAT scores? Multiple Intelligence Assessments?  Any measurable data whatsoever?  No!  He bases it on his own personal opinion alone, with no evidence whatsoever.  He doesn't even provide evidence a correlation between low intelligence and believing in a supreme being.  

 

LOVE it.  

 

And try to get BR to scientifically prove his beloved "social contract." lol.gif

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #137 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

 

And try to get BR to scientifically prove his beloved "social contract." lol.gif

 

Indeed.  I thought that was tonton, though.  Maybe both.  

I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #138 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Indeed.  I thought that was tonton, though.  Maybe both.  

 

It is both.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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