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Google preps revamped Nexus 7 to take on iPad mini

post #1 of 36
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Google is reportedly working on a successor to the Nexus 7, one aimed at taking the fight back to both Apple's iPad mini and Amazon's Kindle Fire by shrinking the bezel to accommodate a larger and higher-resolution display.

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The follow-up to the Nexus 7 will launch in July of this year, Reuters reported Monday. That would see the new tablet hitting the market almost exactly a year after the unveiling of the first Nexus 7.

According to sources familiar with Google's plans, the revamped Nexus 7 will feature a larger screen, achieved by shrinking the thick bezel featured on the current model. The new model's display will also see resolution bump beyond the current one's 1280x800, 164ppi HD display.

The report also has Google switching chip providers for the next model. Instead of Nvidia, which provided the Tegra 3 chip that powers the current Nexus 7, Google will reportedly adopt a Qualcomm Snapdragon processor .

One thing that will remain the same is the tablet's low-margin pricing. Google ? which makes most of its money in online advertising ? will apparently subsidize the price of partner Asus' manufacturing process for the new Nexus 7, as it did with the first model. The low price point for that model, along with the respectable internal tech, was a major selling point for the device.

Google is setting its sights a bit higher in terms of sales for the Nexus 7 follow-up. Reportedly, the search giant is looking to ship as many as eight million of the Asus-made tablets in the second half of the year. The previous Google tablet sold about 4.6 million units in the same span of time, and Asus' Chief Financial Officer David Chang revealed in October that the company was shipping around one million units per month at that time.

The new Nexus 7 will enter a small tablet segment much changed from the one that existed last summer. Apple's iPad mini is thought to have sold a significant portion of the Nexus 7's four-month total in the weekend after its release. Apple is also widely thought to be planning a mini follow-up that would pack a high-resolution screen.

In addition to Apple, Google must contend with Amazon, whose Kindle Fire devices ? running a forked version of Google's Android mobile operating system ? are among the best-selling tablets outside of Apple's iPad. Samsung, too, has re-entered the fray, rolling out the Galaxy Note 8.0, a stylus-enabled 8-inch tablet meant to reclaim share in the mini tablet sector that Samsung helped pioneer years ago.
post #2 of 36
I have the current Nexus 7. It's not bad, but there's just something about it that doesn't compel me to use it the way I used my iPad for hours a day.

As for shrinking the bevel, I think that's a mistake. When the iPad was originally introduced I laughed at the huge bevel but it makes sense. When I hold the Nexus my palms sometimes tough the screen which registers as touches...
post #3 of 36
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Originally Posted by Rothgarr View Post

I have the current Nexus 7. It's not bad, but there's just something about it that doesn't compel me to use it the way I used my iPad for hours a day.
 

 

Of course, it's called quality tablet apps, for which Android is atrocious. 

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post #4 of 36
Nexus 8 = innovation. It's a well known fact most people want bigger screens.

Could it be that the pioneers of the small tablets and the big phones are now playing catch up? Why would they change their design when they got it so right?
post #5 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rothgarr View Post

I have the current Nexus 7. It's not bad, but there's just something about it that doesn't compel me to use it the way I used my iPad for hours a day.

As for shrinking the bevel, I think that's a mistake. When the iPad was originally introduced I laughed at the huge bevel but it makes sense. When I hold the Nexus my palms sometimes tough the screen which registers as touches...

When the iPad was "originally introduced" is quite a while ago, now.

I'm pretty sure all tablets going forward from today with have increasingly minimized "bezels". The iPad Mini showed the technology is there to make this happen with virtually no problem with unintentional touch registers. It's one of my favorite things about the Mini.

post #6 of 36
I just want a small tablet with a card reader. To me that is the only thing missing from the Nexus 7. I like the screen size. Having a higher resolution would be good but not necessary for me.
post #7 of 36
The current Nexus 7's screen is 216 ppi, not 164 ppi. The iPad mini's screen is 162 ppi.
post #8 of 36
Curious to see if the weight will increase much. It'll increase due to the larger screen, but if they can make it retina like,, I wonder if it needs a larger battery and therefore increases the weight. If it (hardly) doesn't, maybe Apple will release a retina mini this year nonetheless.

This action from Google will go down as 'pulling a Samsung'.
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post #9 of 36

Nexus 7" doesn't stand a chance in the light of iPad mini with an 8 inch screen. It is huge difference. Boy, that is another thing that Apple totally get it right.

post #10 of 36
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Originally Posted by mubaili View Post

Nexus 7" doesn't stand a chance in the light of iPad mini with an 8 inch screen. It is huge difference. Boy, that is another thing that Apple totally get it right.

 



Apple products are great and we all know that haters will still buy samdung and google unless you ask them to pick any product for which you are willing to pay lol

post #11 of 36
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Originally Posted by isaidso View Post

When the iPad was "originally introduced" is quite a while ago, now. ...

 

3 years is not really "quite a while ago" even in the computer world. 

post #12 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rothgarr View Post

I have the current Nexus 7. It's not bad, but there's just something about it that doesn't compel me to use it the way I used my iPad for hours a day.

As for shrinking the bevel, I think that's a mistake. When the iPad was originally introduced I laughed at the huge bevel but it makes sense. When I hold the Nexus my palms sometimes tough the screen which registers as touches...

That is why iPad is magical. It is addictive. 

post #13 of 36
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Originally Posted by PhilBoogie View Post

Curious to see if the weight will increase much. It'll increase due to the larger screen, but if they can make it retina like,, I wonder if it needs a larger battery and therefore increases the weight. If it (hardly) doesn't, maybe Apple will release a retina mini this year nonetheless.

This action from Google will go down as 'pulling a Samsung'.

I think the switch to Qualcomm chips will help significantly since the Tegra 3 eats battery life like all hell. I don't think the device will change much to accommodate the bigger screen
post #14 of 36
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Originally Posted by majjo View Post

Going forward though, I think I'm done with tablets. When it cones time to replace the nexus, I'm considering either an MBA, an ultra book or a chrome book.

What is it about the tablet experience that makes you realize you prefer a laptop? Would you still prefer reading books on a laptop?

 

For $350 there are netbooks that are more powerful than tablets but they weigh a lot more. A used netbook that is a couple of years old would still outperform any tablet. Do you feel that tablets are just underpowered?

 

From what I've read many people are giving up laptops for tablets. Do you think this trend will reverse once most people have tried tablets for a while?

post #15 of 36
Can't wait for the barrage of "APPLE MUST RESPOND" analyst shrieking, when this thing is priced @ $149.

Oh, and shrinking the bezel? How novel. Wonder what inspired that? The nexus 7 looks absolutely ridiculous next tothe iPad mini. Half that thing is bezel.
post #16 of 36
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Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

One thing that will remain the same is the tablet's low-margin pricing. Google ? which makes most of its money in online advertising ? will apparently subsidize the price of partner Asus' manufacturing process for the new Nexus 7, as it did with the first model. The low price point for that model, along with the respectable internal tech, was a major selling point for the device.

The DOJ needs to look at this. It is illegal to use a monopoly in one market to leverage your position into an adjacent market. (this is essentially what Microsoft got in trouble for with their bundling of IE with Windows).

Whether Google meets the legal definition of a monopoly is not clear, but they're certainly close enough that it should be looked into.
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post #17 of 36
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Originally Posted by Smallwheels View Post

What is it about the tablet experience that makes you realize you prefer a laptop? Would you still prefer reading books on a laptop?

For $350 there are netbooks that are more powerful than tablets but they weigh a lot more. A used netbook that is a couple of years old would still outperform any tablet. Do you feel that tablets are just underpowered?

From what I've read many people are giving up laptops for tablets. Do you think this trend will reverse once most people have tried tablets for a while?

He said that HE would likely go back to laptops. I didn't see any indication that he thought that everyone else would do the same.

Tablets are better for some people and laptops are better for others (and some people will want both). I think it's overly simplistic to expect that either one is going to drive the other out of business.
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post #18 of 36
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Originally Posted by yvvv View Post

The current Nexus 7's screen is 216 ppi, not 164 ppi. The iPad mini's screen is 162 ppi.


Yeah and even with that the minis display looks sharper and is more visually pleasing
post #19 of 36

I've got a nexus 7, honestly its not a very good performer, its super sluggish & crashes all the time, i like having it tho, its fun to tinker with & it means that I'm using the current android on it, as a tablet tho, its not very good, i think the 1st iPad running iOS4 runs smoother & better.

So for the next nexus 7, they really need to fix the performance.

the funny thing is, people read its benchmark scores & say 'hey, the nexus 7 a beast, makes the iPads specs look crappy', however when you use it, I'm wondering why it doesn't run so well considering its specs, I know that android doesn't take full advantage of its hardware, like multiple cores, however with a nexus device that isn't an excuse, google get other makers to do the hardware, yes & google do the software, it should run more seamlessly far far better than it does (maybe instead of throwing specs at it, maybe they should write better software?) just a thought.

if you read the comments on youtube, any video about the iPad or iPad mini, there's a group of people saying the nexus 7 is better...& as an owner of all these devices, i don't get those people, i think they must be smoking crack (or shaft), its madness.

 

My iPad mini is always with me & my iPad 3 gets used at home, I recently got a windows 8 atom based tablet, its not as good as the iPad, but is seriously seems like a better alternative to android as a tablet, in so many ways.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by majjo View Post


You ask if I would still prefer reading books on a laptop. I admit I don't do as much reading these days as I used to, but oh you better bet i would. I have no issues reading word documents, pdfs, or websites on my laptop, I don't see how books would be any different. Plus if I don't have to hold up a 1lb tablet for hours at a time, it just makes the experience that much better.
 

 

From reading what you said, seems that you are the exception to the rule, from the number of sales & popularity, i think most others find tablets easier to read books or pdfs on, watching movies is the same to me on both for me.

you can prefer what ever you like & that's cool, a lot of people are used to reading books, you hold it in your hand, you can read in bed, on any angle, & move it with you & read, so to those people going to a tablet that you hold, would be an easier transition, than reading off a tilted screen at a desk of off your lap not so much, its, even people that are used to reading off laptops, they tent to print what they write to read it properly, its easy to lose your places on a scrolling page (using a laptop or monitor).

 

 

PS, i do lots of browsing on tablets, i prefer writing stuff on my retina macbook pro 15 or my 11inch air (which I'm using now)

post #20 of 36
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Originally Posted by Zozman View Post

I've got a nexus 7, honestly its not a very good performer, its super sluggish & crashes all the time, i like having it tho, its fun to tinker with & it means that I'm using the current android on it, as a tablet tho, its not very good, i think the 1st iPad running iOS4 runs smoother & better.

PS, i do lots of browsing on tablets, i prefer writing stuff on my retina macbook pro 15 or my 11inch air (which I'm using now)

Huh. I don't think our Nexus 7 has ever crashed on us. Haven't really noticed "sluggishness" either, but I don't have an iPad Mini to compare it to. I do agree with your last comment tho. If I have much writing to do my preferred device would NOT be a tablet. A laptop with a physical keyboard is much more comfortable for me.
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post #21 of 36
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Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post


Huh. I don't think our Nexus 7 has ever crashed on us. Haven't really noticed "sluggishness" either, but I don't have an iPad Mini to compare it to. I do agree with your last comment tho. If I have much writing to do my preferred device would NOT be a tablet. A laptop with a physical keyboard is much more comfortable for me.

 

It happened when it was on 4.1 & 4.2.1 The random reboots are a known issue (not for everyone), the 4.2.2 update was meant to fix it.

I've restored it a few times, still happening, so that side of things i know is an issue with Nexus 7s.

the sluggishness :p could just be my one, I'm not used to seeing dropped frames on my other devices.

post #22 of 36
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Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zozman View Post

I've got a nexus 7, honestly its not a very good performer, its super sluggish & crashes all the time, i like having it tho, its fun to tinker with & it means that I'm using the current android on it, as a tablet tho, its not very good, i think the 1st iPad running iOS4 runs smoother & better.

PS, i do lots of browsing on tablets, i prefer writing stuff on my retina macbook pro 15 or my 11inch air (which I'm using now)

Huh. I don't think our Nexus 7 has ever crashed on us. Haven't really noticed "sluggishness" either, but I don't have an iPad Mini to compare it to. I do agree with your last comment tho. If I have much writing to do my preferred device would NOT be a tablet. A laptop with a physical keyboard is much more comfortable for me.

 

I have both an iPad mini and a Nexus 7 and you can feel the sluggishness especially with regard to gaming response. A good example are these platforming games (Lep's World) that we have available for both platforms. The kids and anyone else playing get very frustrated on the Nexus because occasionally the tablet just becomes choppy or hesitates with the touch input for a tenth of a second or so. That isn't a huge deal if you are opening a picture or something in Facebook or turning a page in an ebook but for gaming, especially with platformers that require all these timed interactions, it is frustrating. I've also seen it be quite choppy when playing Asphalt 7 which is shocking considering it plays just fine on my iPad mini and my iPhone 4s which have much less CPU power.

 

It honestly isn't hard to get the Nexus 7 to chug at all. Just open up about ten tabs in Chrome, open Facebook, have Kindle open and then play any sort of game, even most minor ones, in the foreground.

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post #23 of 36
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Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Huh. I don't think our Nexus 7 has ever crashed on us. Haven't really noticed "sluggishness" either, but I don't have an iPad Mini to compare it to.

You have to take off any Google Glasses while using it - they have a rosey tint that hides a lot of the problems. 1wink.gif Here's a video that shows the main differences, skip to 8:00 for the lag:

post #24 of 36
Thanks Marvin. I've not ever noticed lag on my Nexus so at least for me it's not an issue. My son's never complained about it either and he games on it constantly, so it's apparently nothing affecting the usability for that either. Maybe I'd notice it if I swiped photos, but I don't take photos with it. The camera isn't meant for that.

I'll pay attention the next couple times I use it , but at a huge savings over the Mini it's served it purpose well IMO.

EDIT: It looks like they turned down the brightness on the Nexus 7 for whatever reason. The display is a whole lot brighter than in the video.
Edited by Gatorguy - 4/5/13 at 9:20am
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post #25 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post


It honestly isn't hard to get the Nexus 7 to chug at all. Just open up about ten tabs in Chrome, open Facebook, have Kindle open and then play any sort of game, even most minor ones, in the foreground.

There wouldn't typically be multiple open browser tabs with Kindle in the background when my son is gaming on it (his current fav is Waking Mars). While I might have multiple tabs open, I don't game. Maybe that's why I've never seen the "frustrating lag". I will make a point of asking my son if it happens with some of his games tho.

I'm not claiming the 16gb Nexus 7 at $199 is the same device as the 16gb Mini at $329 (The 32GB version difference is $180 between the two). That would be silly. I just haven't been at all disappointed or frustrated by the Nexus. If you stress your tablet with Facebook open and a half-dozen browser tabs to boot and don't want to be bothered with closing any of them to play games then the higher priced Mini may be appropriate. But that's not how I use a tablet.
Edited by Gatorguy - 4/5/13 at 9:37am
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post #26 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Thanks Marvin. I've not ever noticed lag on my Nexus so at least for me it's not an issue. My son's never complained about it either and he games on it constantly, so it's apparently nothing affecting the usability for that either. Maybe I'd notice it if I swiped photos, but I don't take photos with it. The camera isn't meant for that.

Gaming too it seems - skip to 2:40 for the lag. Misses a lot of effects out too (I suppose it's easier to do that when you target so many devices):


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

I'll pay attention the next couple times I use it , but at a huge savings over the Mini it's served it purpose well IMO.

Yeah, $199 vs $329 is a whole $120. If Apple sold it without any profit like Google, it would be around $329 x 0.6 = $197. Shame they have to make profit on the hardware really. Still, it's a better quality tablet.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

EDIT: It looks like they turned down the brightness on the Nexus 7 for whatever reason. The display is a whole lot brighter than in the video.

It has been subjected to daylight but it was on auto-brightness. They set both to maximum here:

http://pocketnow.com/2012/11/03/nexus-7-vs-ipad-mini

Guess which is better.
post #27 of 36
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Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

Gaming too it seems - skip to 2:40 for the lag. Misses a lot of effects out too (I suppose it's easier to do that when you target so many devices):.

Thanks again. Compared to the iPad Mini I can certainly see the difference in details. Since my son doesn't have a Mini to compare with he doesn't realize he's supposed to be disappointed and shouldn't be having fun playing games on the Nexus. 1wink.gif

As for the money why should I be concerned if Google if selling the Nexus at cost (if it is)? I can't think of a reason to choose to pay a 60% premium for the Mini if the Nexus 7 serves the purpose. Now if I was a heavy gamer I can see where the Mini certainly has the upper hand with some games. I never noticed it before now.

EDIT: Ah, the Nexus was on auto-brightness while the Mini was at 100%. Makes sense now. Thanks yet again.
Edited by Gatorguy - 4/5/13 at 10:05am
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post #28 of 36
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Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Since my son doesn't have a Mini to compare with he doesn't realize he's supposed to be disappointed and shouldn't be having fun playing games on the Nexus. 1wink.gif

Poor kid, probably crying on the inside. It's good that he can work through his pain but the therapy costs will offset the savings in later life.
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Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

As for the money why should I be concerned if Google if selling the Nexus at cost (if it is)? I can't think of a reason to choose to pay a 60% premium for the Mini if the Nexus 7 serves the purpose.

Sure, you don't have to pay a premium for anything. You can buy unbranded clothing, the cheapest foods. If you have no quality expectations for the purpose they serve, there's no difference. People do pay more for higher quality though and with a better screen, better battery life, better performance, better apps, the extra $120 is worth paying to a lot of people. Even at the cheaper price, the Nexus 7 sells much fewer units so price can't be everything.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

EDIT: Ah, the Nexus was on auto-brightness while the Mini was at 100%. Makes sense now. Thanks yet again.

They were both on auto with a baseline of 50%. Android just dimmed it more, possibly to compensate for having worse battery life:

http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-19736_7-57545908-251/battery-life-battle-royale-nexus-vs-ipad/
post #29 of 36
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Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post


It honestly isn't hard to get the Nexus 7 to chug at all. Just open up about ten tabs in Chrome, open Facebook, have Kindle open and then play any sort of game, even most minor ones, in the foreground.

There wouldn't typically be multiple open browser tabs with Kindle in the background when my son is gaming on it (his current fav is Waking Mars). While I might have multiple tabs open, I don't game. Maybe that's why I've never seen the "frustrating lag". I will make a point of asking my son if it happens with some of his games tho.

I'm not claiming the 16gb Nexus 7 at $199 is the same device as the 16gb Mini at $329 (The 32GB version difference is $180 between the two). That would be silly. I just haven't been at all disappointed or frustrated by the Nexus. If you stress your tablet with Facebook open and a half-dozen browser tabs to boot and don't want to be bothered with closing any of them to play games then the higher priced Mini may be appropriate. But that's not how I use a tablet.

 

Oh I don't think anyone is declaring you to be advocating one over the other. People should be able to share around here without someone claiming they are a fanboy or anything like that. I obviously own and play with both and while the iPad mini is better, and while I have told my wife that if the iPad mini moves to retina resolution I will actually buy it without a second thought (mortgage be damned), there is still a reason the Nexus has all those things going on it. It is because it is used by myself and others.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

Gaming too it seems - skip to 2:40 for the lag. Misses a lot of effects out too (I suppose it's easier to do that when you target so many devices):.

Thanks again. Compared to the iPad Mini I can certainly see the difference in details. Since my son doesn't have a Mini to compare with he doesn't realize he's supposed to be disappointed and shouldn't be having fun playing games on the Nexus. 1wink.gif

As for the money why should I be concerned if Google if selling the Nexus at cost (if it is)? I can't think of a reason to choose to pay a 60% premium for the Mini if the Nexus 7 serves the purpose. Now if I was a heavy gamer I can see where the Mini certainly has the upper hand with some games. I never noticed it before now.

EDIT: Ah, the Nexus was on auto-brightness while the Mini was at 100%. Makes sense now. Thanks yet again.

 

Well you really hit on the main point here and I've noted it is a very large issue for Apple. People don't know they should be disappointed. They aren't comparing. The Nexus product is "good enough" for most people. Apple pricing for certain things is too high. I don't mean profit margin vs no profit margin high. I mean high as in they are now chasing away marketshare and forgetting that certain actions plant seeds that make young customers into life customers.

 

I own the latest iPod nano and while it is a great device, I wouldn't have owned it if someone didn't sell it to me for $100. It is a $100 that Apple is charging $150 retail. The iPod Touch has the same problem with the latest version being $300, well above the price of the Nexus 7 and almost the price of the iPad mini.

 

It isn't that adults can't stomach a few extra dollars for the Apple product. They can and often do. The real issue is that the kids determine the future and what is cool. Right now they are increasingly getting inexpensive Android phones, and Android tablets. I fully understand that the products in many cases are inferior to the Apple solution but if people go with what they know and all they know is Android, then at some point Apple might be out of the loop again.

 

These kids in the past would have begged for iPod nanos, then iPod touches and finally now many of the want iPhones. When Mom or Dad go to the store and see the iPod nano sitting next to a revised Nexus tablet and one has a 2 inch screen and no apps, and the other has a 7 inch screen and apps, the choice becomes pretty easy. That choice again can happen between an iPod touch/iPad Mini vs. Nexus 7HD/10 or whatever comes out in a few months.

 

If the kids has been plugging his gift cards and money into Android for several years, what is going to make him change when it times to buy the iPhone? The halo is dinted, dingy and gone.

 

The Nexus 7 doesn't have to be better. It can be good enough for most people and if that gets it into the hands and people plugged into the competing ecosystem, then that can harm Apple's interest long term. Almost every niece and nephew I have owns an Android tablet of some sort. They were practically stocking stuffers last year. You go half a decade prior and those kids had Nintendo DS's or Sony PSP's and all their media was on an iPod of some sort.

 

Now it is all over the place and I don't see kids taking out or asking for iPods any more, not even the Touch variation. Of course I can understand why when Apple is selling an outdated design at $199 or a recent design at $300 and the Android tablets have been $80-200.  It is all tablets which have replaced both the Nintendo/Sony device and the iPod as well. The kids are divided between those who have already chucked all those for a smart phone or those who still have the texting feature phone and a tablet.

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post #30 of 36
Marvin, I guess you think I'm arguing the Nexus 7 is equal in all ways to the iPad Mini. That would explain your constant dissing of Google's product. No need as I already noted the iPad Mini was an overall better tablet. Some think it's better product even than Apple's more expensive full-size iPad.

We simply disagree whether another $130 would have given me a product better suited to my use. I don't believe it would. I like the feel, the display quality, the portability and the ability to share the product within the family without sharing my personal and business communications or apps. I can't do that with a Mini.

I realize you really like your video link but what it's showing hasn't been my experience, with the display quality in particular far away from what I've seen. The Nexus detail is very good IMO, and exceeds what I expected at the price point, so your comment about not caring about quality if you buy a Nexus 7 doesn't apply. I feel it's a quality tablet, better built than other higher-priced 7" tablets I'd seen and well worth what I paid for it. YMMV of course and obviously does.

Apple has a great product in the Mini. It might even outsell the iPad. That doesn't make the Nexus 7 unfit for any purpose as you might be trying to convince me.
Edited by Gatorguy - 4/5/13 at 12:45pm
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post #31 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Apple pricing for certain things is too high. I don't mean profit margin vs no profit margin high

That's usually the problem though. With the computer line, Apple maintains a healthy 20%+ net margin whereas Dell, Lenovo, HP go to under 5%. Those percentages make fairly big differences in expensive products. I agree that some of Apple's products are very expensive but they choose to build them in certain ways. They don't want to build tacky plastic devices with poor quality components. So far, the market hasn't turned against their quality products.

They ship lower volumes than they could but they prefer low volume, high profit. I think most people in their position would too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Almost every niece and nephew I have owns an Android tablet of some sort.

Now it is all over the place and I don't see kids taking out or asking for iPods any more, not even the Touch variation.

That comes up quite a lot e.g 'every family member or friend of mine or person I know' and 'everywhere I go, I see...'. Look at the sales stats for Apple's last quarter: ~23 million iPads, nearly 50% higher than last year. The article says Nexus 7 sold 4.6m in 6 months. Android is growing at a fast rate but the personal stories of Android everywhere don't really match up with the sales figures and can't. If you walk into a store and see 20 people buying an Android device and you walk into the street and see 5 people with an Android phone and 1 person with an iPhone, you can't then assume that every city and country in the world reflects the same ratio of that one experience.

When Apple is doing badly, that will show in their quarterly results. So far, that hasn't really been the case.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy 
We simply disagree whether another $130 would have given me a product better suited to my use... the ability to share the product within the family without sharing my personal and business communications or apps. I can't do that with a Mini.

Oh, so if the iPad had multiple user accounts where everyone has to buy their own apps then you'd have gone for the iPad? If not, what premium would you be willing to pay?

I agree there should be some features for separating data on shared devices. Maybe this is something they'll look at with the fingerprint sensor. They have to keep features back to make the new hardware compelling. That's another difference with the business model. Google can put whatever they want into the hardware because the hardware itself doesn't matter. With other Android device manufacturers, that's not the case.

When it comes to other Android tablets, do you feel the same way - that there's no value in any premium they have over the Nexus 7? Wouldn't that be a problem if Google undercuts Android device manufacturers who have a for-profit hardware business model?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy 
That doesn't make the Nexus 7 unfit for any purpose as you might be trying to convince me.

Not at all, just that the iPad mini is better at all of them 1biggrin.gif (except sharing and getting malware).
post #32 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post


Oh, so if the iPad had multiple user accounts where everyone has to buy their own apps then you'd have gone for the iPad? If not, what premium would you be willing to pay?

I agree there should be some features for separating data on shared devices. Maybe this is something they'll look at with the fingerprint sensor. They have to keep features back to make the new hardware compelling. That's another difference with the business model. Google can put whatever they want into the hardware because the hardware itself doesn't matter. With other Android device manufacturers, that's not the case.

When it comes to other Android tablets, do you feel the same way - that there's no value in any premium they have over the Nexus 7? Wouldn't that be a problem if Google undercuts Android device manufacturers who have a for-profit hardware business model?
Not at all, just that the iPad mini is better at all of them 1biggrin.gif (except sharing and getting malware).

We both know Android malware worries are currently FUD unless you live in Russia or China.1wink.gif I doubt even you know anyone who's ever encountered any.

Anyway, when I bought my Nexus the iPad Mini wasn't even an option. It was still vaporware. If I wanted to buy another tablet in the next few months I'd have to take a look again at what's available, including whatever Apple and Google come up with. I can't say for certain what I'd replace it with. FWIW I came within a keypress of buying an iPad just prior to my Nexus buy. It was in the cart. The $250 difference between the Nexus and the iPad at the time was just too much to rationalize.

Regarding other Android tablets I already answered that one in my last post. At the time I settled on the Nexus 7 it was the best available (and best-built) small tablet in my view. I might have been willing to pay even a bit more at the time since I thought it that much better than the other comparable options from Sammy, Moto and others.
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post #33 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

We both know Android malware worries are currently FUD unless you live in Russia or China.1wink.gif I doubt even you know anyone who's ever encountered any.

Yeah, the malware issue seems like FUD. Maybe these guys know something more about it:

http://www.networkworld.com/news/2013/030813-the-android-malware-problem-is-267526.html
http://www.crn.com/news/security/240150464/android-malware-surges-with-new-banking-sms-attacks.htm
http://www.scmagazineuk.com/dell-secureworks-becomes-latest-to-warn-about-android-malware/article/287452/

"Recent reports from antivirus companies seem to suggest that the number of Android malware threats is growing. However, there are still many skeptics who think that the extent of the problem is exaggerated.

The security industry has an embarrassing credibility issue when it comes to mobile threats, Rik Ferguson, global vice president of security research at antivirus vendor Trend Micro, said Friday in a blog post.

[ OUTLOOK: Android malware cases to hit 1 million in 2013 ]

Big industry vendors warned for many years that "next year" mobile malware will truly take off, but the threat never quite materialized, he said. "Now that the problem is well and truly here -- the last two years have both been called 'the year of mobile malware' at several points -- we have a problem persuading the world at large that we are not crying 'Wolf!' yet again."

One of the arguments commonly brought forward by skeptics is that Android malware mostly exists on third-party app stores that are popular in countries like China or Russia. That's not true, Ferguson said.

Trend Micro's mobile app reputation service has analyzed over 2 million mobile app samples collected from around the world and 293,091 of them have been classified as outright malicious, Ferguson said.

Almost 69,000 of those were sourced directly from Google Play, which offers around 700,000 apps in total, he said. "It's not just Chinese and Russian app stores."

A further 150,203 apps of the 2 million analyzed by Trend Micro were flagged as high risk and 22 percent of the 2 million were found to leak device and SIM card identification numbers, as well as users' contact data and telephone numbers.

In addition to apps that pose security and privacy risks, there are many apps that are undesirable for other reasons. For example, 32 percent of the analyzed apps had poor battery usage, 24 percent had poor network usage and 28 percent had poor memory usage.

The statistics shared by Ferguson come one day after security firm F-Secure released a report saying that Android malware accounted for 96 percent of new mobile threats discovered during the fourth quarter of 2012 and 79 percent of all mobile threats discovered during 2012.

Bogdan Botezatu, a senior e-threat analyst at antivirus vendor Bitdefender, believes that the Android malware threats are not only increasing in number, but are also becoming more diversified. "Mobile malware has developed in a way that is extremely similar to the malware for Windows operating systems," he said Friday via email. "In the past years, we saw notable developments in the Android e-threat landscape: adware becoming more aggressive, increased number of premium-rate SMS senders and the emergence of SMS interceptor Trojans aimed at mobile banking fraud."

Skeptics are correct that most Android malware is found on third-party application stores or on shady websites that offer cracked, unrestricted versions of popular paid applications, Botezatu said. It's also true that such third-party apps sources are more popular in countries like Russia or China. "But let's not forget that China has the fastest-growing Android market in the world at the moment, so we are talking about a huge number of Android users who may fall victim to malware delivered via third-party stores," he said.

When talking about Android threats there's some confusion generated by the lack of a clear-cut distinction between adware, aggressive adware, spyware and malware, Botezatu said. The fastest growing number of Android threats are aggressive-ad-supported apps, but there has also been a significant spike in the development of Android Trojan programs and monitors, a category of applications that track users' behavior and geographical position, he said.

"Bottom line: Android malware is here to stay," Botezatu said. "Since more and more users turn to Android for day-to-day operations, cybercriminals have plethora of reasons to invest in the research and development of mobile-borne threats. Android malware is already in a point where it can inflict real damage to users: banker Trojans, mobile espionage and privacy invasion are only a few of the threats that we deal with on a daily basis. And with mobile devices becoming payment mechanisms -- payment via premium-rate SMS or by tapping into the associated Google Wallet account-- the next generations of Android threats will become even more dangerous."

Time will tell I suppose.
post #34 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Apple pricing for certain things is too high. I don't mean profit margin vs no profit margin high

That's usually the problem though. With the computer line, Apple maintains a healthy 20%+ net margin whereas Dell, Lenovo, HP go to under 5%. Those percentages make fairly big differences in expensive products. I agree that some of Apple's products are very expensive but they choose to build them in certain ways. They don't want to build tacky plastic devices with poor quality components. So far, the market hasn't turned against their quality products.

They ship lower volumes than they could but they prefer low volume, high profit. I think most people in their position would too.

 

Well they shipping lower volumes in what they consider to be a declining market. In that regard they are right in that it is losing out to smartphones and tablets but if it were further commodorized, then it could still hold it's own in my opinion. That doesn't grow a new market for Apple but it does make sure all the kids get their proper start on Apple products and get properly plugged into that eco-system. People used to tease that Apple didn't need a cheap iPhone. They already had one and it was called the iPod Touch. The problem is is that as time marches on the iPod Touch is more expensive than many mid-level Android phones.

 

I'm quite certain the profit margins on the iPod Touch and Nano must be ridiculously high. There's nothing new with regard to both of them. They are repurposed technology but not with the lowered price point. In the case of the Nano, nothing has literally been added since about 2009. It is the same OS just with a graphical refresh and applied with similar electronics from the same subcontractors. Most breakdowns of the Touch have shown it being sold at nearly double the price of the components. I'm saying Apple can still have a 30-40% margin on these and get those kids their Apple gateway drug. There are a lot of places in this day and age where $300 gets you a Samsung Galaxy SII which isn't top of the line but has the same sort of generation old technology that Apple is shipping in the iPod.

 

I think Apple should try again and it can actually help maintain their margins. A $200-250 iPod Touch, maybe coming in the cool colors and in plastic like I've seen for the cheap iPhone mock-ups could keep Apple profitable, help segment their business more (iPods get plastic iPhones get premium materials), get the kids into the ecosystem and they'd still make a bundle (just not 100% mark up.)

Quote:
That comes up quite a lot e.g 'every family member or friend of mine or person I know' and 'everywhere I go, I see...'. Look at the sales stats for Apple's last quarter: ~23 million iPads, nearly 50% higher than last year. The article says Nexus 7 sold 4.6m in 6 months. Android is growing at a fast rate but the personal stories of Android everywhere don't really match up with the sales figures and can't. If you walk into a store and see 20 people buying an Android device and you walk into the street and see 5 people with an Android phone and 1 person with an iPhone, you can't then assume that every city and country in the world reflects the same ratio of that one experience.

When Apple is doing badly, that will show in their quarterly results. So far, that hasn't really been the case.

 

It comes up because it is happening. They aren't all from the big players like Google, Samsung, or Amazon though those guys do cumulatively add up. These things were all $100-140 tablets. Most were seven inch single processor 1 ghz-ish  with a front camera for Skype and probably 4-8 gig of storage.

 

It doesn't matter if they aren't great because what Apple is peddling at nearly double the price is the over two year old iPod Touch which came out in 2010. It is far from great itself.

 

It has shown up in the quarterly results. A company as big and amazing as Apple doesn't just fall of the face of the earth. The inertia built into it is amazing as well. Look at Microsoft for goodness sakes which has hasn't died yet even after screwing off for over a decade. Apple has seen their disproportionate growth stop for the most part and they are matching or missing their whisper numbers and actually meeting their own guidance which was always ridiculously conservative. All the stuff I'm talking about will be affecting purchasing decisions half a decade from now, not today.

 

We are an Apple family and because of that my sons were given iPod Touch's for their birthdays two years ago. However this Christmas they didn't get a iPad mini but every other cousin got an Android tablet. When all these kids get their first smartphones, what are they going to request?

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #35 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

Yeah, the malware issue seems like FUD. Maybe these guys know something more about it:

http://www.networkworld.com/news/2013/030813-the-android-malware-problem-is-267526.html
http://www.crn.com/news/security/240150464/android-malware-surges-with-new-banking-sms-attacks.htm
http://www.scmagazineuk.com/dell-secureworks-becomes-latest-to-warn-about-android-malware/article/287452/

"Recent reports from antivirus companies seem to suggest that the number of Android malware threats is growing. However, there are still many skeptics who think that the extent of the problem is exaggerated.

The security industry has an embarrassing credibility issue when it comes to mobile threats, Rik Ferguson, global vice president of security research at antivirus vendor Trend Micro, said Friday in a blog post.

[ OUTLOOK: Android malware cases to hit 1 million in 2013 ]

Big industry vendors warned for many years that "next year" mobile malware will truly take off, but the threat never quite materialized, he said. "Now that the problem is well and truly here -- the last two years have both been called 'the year of mobile malware' at several points -- we have a problem persuading the world at large that we are not crying 'Wolf!' yet again."

Time will tell I suppose.

Absolutely, time will tell. It certainly didn't happen in 2011 tho it was predicted. Nor in 2012 when it was the "year of Android malware". Maybe 2013 will be the year. . or not.

So assume your link guesses right and there's 1 million Android malware infections in 2013. The number of Android units activated so far according to Google is over 750 million. . You'll probably say they're lying thru their teeth so cut that by a third to make you happy, leaving just 500-550 million. Now dump another third no longer used. Sound reasonable fair to you? That leaves perhaps 350 million Android devices with the potential to encounter malware. What percentage of them will actually be "infected" if the 1 million guess is accurate? Pretty darn small chance isn't it. Considering there's been over 25 billion app downloads from Google Play so far the chances of any particular user acquiring malware from there must be infinitesimal.

Also keep in mind that the security companies say the most common Android "malware" comes from apps using. . . drumroll. . . an aggressive ad network. Hardly a terror.

Malware might actually be a problem someday if attention isn't paid to beefing up security. Android is far from perfect and there's holes regularly discovered that need closing. But it's not a significant issue today for the average user, and certainly not for those in North America where the chances are reported to be less than .2%. That makes claiming Android users suffer with a huge malware problem FUD in my view.


Edited by Gatorguy - 4/5/13 at 5:27pm
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post #36 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

I'm quite certain the profit margins on the iPod Touch and Nano must be ridiculously high. There's nothing new with regard to both of them. They are repurposed technology but not with the lowered price point. Most breakdowns of the Touch have shown it being sold at nearly double the price of the components. I'm saying Apple can still have a 30-40% margin on these and get those kids their Apple gateway drug.

The current gross margins are around 40%, that's why the price is nearly double the cost of goods: gross profit = (price - cost)/price. 40% of the pre-tax purchase price is profit. 50% gross profit would be exactly double because the cost is half the revenue. There are other costs involved though so the net profit is around 20-25%. If they make the price 40% higher than the cost of goods, that would make their gross profit margin (1.4xC-C)/1.4xC = 29%.

This would drop the price of a $650 iPhone to about $550 (cost of goods ~$390). It'll increase volume but it might not be enough to offset the drop in margin. I think they should do this on the Mac line first but the margins are balanced with supply capacity and demand. They will gradually lower as the market changes. Right now, Apple is doing the right thing by sucking up the profits and still outselling competitors in the premium range. The margins lowered in the last quarter - lower gross profit, higher volume, total profit in dollars around the same.

The problem Apple has with cheap devices is they don't make crappy devices so unless they design the lower models with a limitation, it's hard to upsell people to the higher profit units. If they make the wrong move, they could end up dramatically cutting their net profit, which would be a very bad thing. You can bet they have some capable people working this stuff out for them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

There are a lot of places in this day and age where $300 gets you a Samsung Galaxy SII which isn't top of the line but has the same sort of generation old technology that Apple is shipping in the iPod.

You can get the old iPhones cheaper too:

http://www.amazon.com/Apple-iPhone-16GB-Black-Verizon/dp/B004ZLV5UE

(you can tell it's the same generation as the Samsung ones because they copied the design when Apple changed it so 3G/3GS = Galaxy S, 4/4S = S2; they stopped with the S3)
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

It comes up because it is happening. They aren't all from the big players like Google, Samsung, or Amazon though those guys do cumulatively add up. These things were all $100-140 tablets. Most were seven inch single processor 1 ghz-ish  with a front camera for Skype and probably 4-8 gig of storage.

All the stuff I'm talking about will be affecting purchasing decisions half a decade from now, not today.

You can't tell what's going to happen in 5 years though. If you made an assessment in 2006 of what people were buying, you wouldn't have predicted the fall of Nokia in 5 years.

Regardless, volume isn't the only important metric. PC manufacturers vastly outsell Apple but make hardly any profit. Apple has 500 million customers. Android is growing faster but mostly because Nokia, RIM and Microsoft are losing, not because Apple is losing. Apple is still growing, just at a slower pace because they are focusing on premium phones but they are still selling a massive amount of phones.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy 
certainly not for those in North America where the chances are reported to be less than .2%. That makes claiming Android users suffer with a huge malware problem FUD in my view.

The color in the chart shows 0.2-0.4% (you must have those glasses on again). Look at Europe, Canada and Australia, some parts are over 1%. From the same people who made that graph:

http://thenextweb.com/google/2012/12/13/lookout-predicts-18-4m-android-users-will-be-infected-with-malware-during-2012-and-2013-or-some-1/

It's definitely FUD if you're not one of the 18.4 million people. And it's not slowing down so that's a conservative estimate. People seem to manage to use Windows just fine though and tend to have a malware scanning routine so it's not a show stopper by any means. It just means you get a poorer experience and some people pay a premium for a better quality experience.
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