G5 Trinity @ WWDC - Page 7

So are you going to spill your beans, or what?

Nonsense. What you're not allowed to do is sell products you don't mean to release.

Haha. If they don't release 3 Ghz PowerMacs, we could just get some SEC lawyers to force IBM to make them and then Apple to put them together and sell them.

They will rock your world even more if they are significantly faster than what would be released with a 970xx running at 3GHz. If significant improvements have been made to the processor, we could see greater performance increase than everyones been hoping for. Maybe I'm overlly optimistic but I suspect that Apple is going to make a run for home and not look back.

The opteron has little to do with where the next PPC will go. It is a completely different processor, the clock rate is only loosely tied to the process used to build the processor.

I'm starting to fell the same way. It isn't just the PowerMac but the iMac or what ever replaces it that have me looking forward to WWDC. The massive delay with the iMac strikes me as being the best sign out there that WWDC will be HOT. I do believe though that they will try to ship as soon as possible after release. Apples so far behind in the market that they need to do something to start to move hardware.

The beans are not mine to spill. I am just saying if you think about it too much, it will not be good for you. Why not show some patience and see what will happen!

Truthfully we will see the next Rev of G5's. Apple did not intend the G5 to stay in the PowerMac. There is something better in the wing. The xServer will move to it as well. The 970fx is merely Apple's break into the 64bit server market. What you will see next will blow the socks off of even Intel's most ambitious project. Think speed and then double it!

Ahh but for a company like Apple, the stock price is directly linked with rumors and news. If there is a rumor of a 3Ghz G5, then the stock goes up. If they do not come through on their promise, then the stock will go down. Either way it is a way to manipulate the price of the stock. I dont think the SEC takes too kindly to that...

Once again I'd like to temper some of the exhuberance here with just a dose of pragmaticism... 8)

If Apple had released a refresh early on this year I would believe they'd reach 3 Ghz by the end of summer. But now, having to go from 2 to 3 Ghz in a single jump... I highly doubt it.

Time to put away some of those lofty predictions and start thinking like a major computer company. If Apple thinks they can milk a ~2.5 Ghz part (which is already a significant improvement and will still be very competitive) they'll do it. This gives Apple some breathing room as clearly CPUs are getting tougher and tougher to produce. And they will want this breathing room...

Steve will take a little flack, they'll spin-doctor it nicely, all the while knowing it will be soon forgotten.

Just my 2 bits...

C.

You can keep talking out your @ss all you want nobody's listening with breath like that.
You may think a 2.5 GHz PowerMac is "very competitive", but those of us who did not buy the 2.0, and most others who did buy it do not think that it's competitive enough. It's stupid reasoning like yours is why Apple is not selling more PowerMacs, and they better know it. because If they don't they are going to find that out the hard way that 2.5GHz is going to drown them. I hope they don't get to comfortable with the sales figures that they would be expecting from this "very competitive" PowerMac at 2.5GHz, because they will come in way under their projected sales graph, and loose a lot of Mac users with BS like that.
So you, and your butt breath can stay at 2.5GHz, and while you, your 2.5GHz reasoning, and Apple loose millions, and return Mac buyers along the way you may want to consider actually creating a machine that is competitive sometime in the future, and maybe a lot of people would consider buying one?

I'm lookin' at it from the perspective that 3Ghz is obtainable and will ship this year late summer.

However I think it will be no less than 3499. It only makes sense from a business perspective to profit where you can. High End computers have the most margin. The demand for the Dual 3Ghz would be high enough to sell every chip IBM could crank out. There are professionals out there that need every drop of speed you can give them. If they have to pay $4000 for it so be it because they are probably financing and need the computer to last as long as possible.

Thus I think we should see 2Ghz/2.2Dual/2.5Dual/3Dual

Truthfully we will see the next Rev of G5's. Apple did not intend the G5 to stay in the PowerMac. There is something better in the wing. The xServer will move to it as well. The 970fx is merely Apple's break into the 64bit server market. What you will see next will blow the socks off of even Intel's most ambitious project. Think speed and then double it!



If this is even remotely close to where Apple is headed, then the investments made on all the High end "Processor Intensive" applications starts to really make sense.

haha, onlooker is getting a bit testy with all this talk of not reaching 3 Ghz.


How about this: the lower end machines, let's say the 970fx ones, up to 2.5 Ghz or whatever it is, are immediately shipping. They also announce a 975 (or whatever it's called - didn't someone just make up that number?) at 3 Ghz, shipping in several months, so Jobs doesn't lose face too badly.

Keep talkin' like that and you're gonna hurt my feelings... I think someone's setting themselves up for some disappointment.

O-kay... JFYI, performance-wise, the dual 2.0 is right in there with the rest of Intel's and AMD offerings. A dual 2.5 would allow them to remain at a competitive performance level for the remainder of the year.


I'm going to clue you into a little secret Onlooker - the reason why Apple doesn't sell more Powermacs has little to do with the processor speed.

I'm hoping you're right and some miracle occurs and we do see them by the end of summer. But the way the year has gone so far - I really believe the chances of that are slim at best.

What I'd really like is this place to not degenerate into months long whine-fest if Apple doesn't live up to these lofty expectations...


Cheers,

C.

Sorry I blew up you Concord, I wasn't really blowing up on you just what you said, but I'm telling you.

#1) That is why Apple is not selling more PowerMacs.

#2) The 2.0GHz is not on par with PC's. (which relates to #1 in many ways)

And #3) I'm not setting myself up for disappointment. I have already configured another computer if I'm not happy with what Apple is offering this year, and so have a lot of my friends.
I configured it well enough to where no matter what I'll at least have the best 3D card made AFAIAC. And knowing that alone will keep all disappointment off my back for a long time. Plus there is a lot of cool stuff on the PC side. Sh*t my case alone is almost worth switching.

I just think you and Apple aren't getting it If that is actually what Apple thinks. But if your just saying that because you think Apple just doesn't have the processors because IBM can not supply them. That I can understand, and then would agree, but if Apple is thinking 2.5GHz is good enough when intel is at 4GHz XEONs I just don't agree. Nobody wants to buy a computer from a company that can not keep up even if the computer they buy isn't the fastest one from that company. As long as that company's computer is keeping up with the competition they will see that as a sign of a satisfactory purchase.
That's a fact. Especially in computing. More so than anywhere.


My 2¢

Oh, if it were only that easy... \

Unfortunately the real reason can be summed up in just 2 letters - P and C, and the increasing ubiquity thereof. The simple fact of the matter is that the overwhelming majority of people simply don't give a rats a$$ about Macs.

Oh, they'll see a sales spike in the quarter they release their refreshed machines, but whether that refresh is 2.5 or 3.0 will make little (but some) difference on sales overall. And you can bet the following quarter sales will just peter out again - as always. And realize that there's only a small segment of users who know, care and can afford it anyway. This is something you can bet Apple is very aware of and why I believe they will give themselves some breathing room to refresh a little more regularly and not just have 1 good PM sales quarter out of every 4.

In what way? Most of the benchmarks I've seen (that tax the processor) seem to suggest otherwise. You can't fault Macs in gaming because they don't have DirectX (OpenGL is slower) and a lot of performance is tied to the Gx card. They are still the Photoshop Kings AFAIK and are very competative in Digital Camera related tasks.

And as far as 4 Ghz Xeons are concerned... They're not due till the end of the year and I think it will be tricky for them to even make that with all the problems they're having. A dual 2.5 will be plenty competitive until the new year. It'll be more important for them to improve memory performance and to get on the PCIe bandwagon. Onboard RAID capability wouldn't hurt either...

Cheers,

C.

Screw the G5 onlooker hip me to this "wonder case" of yourse. Who makes it and what makes it special?

[Sends out spy camera...]

*click*






C.

Wow... I like that case.

fresco,

that's an interesting comment.

I think that the combination of the Motion software being out this summer and a recommended '9800 Pro or better' to run it is another piece in the puzzle to suggest that there will be new towers this summer...

I am not too technical a guy, but new G5 desktops are for sure.

For the following reasons:-

1. Availability of cheaper PPC990fx processors. This is what most people seem to suggest. ie: Smaller the die size, cheaper the cost. Even if the R&D costs are written off at an aggresive pace, the newer 970s have to cheaper. If there is no NEW processor in the pipeline, then it is best for them to plug the cheapest available in.

2. The models have not been updated in close to a year now. Updates are due anyday.

3. Special deals in different markets to get rid of stocks. This is happending all over the globe.

Lets hope for the best......

Aghh, I was beating this drum back on page 2...

Not if the promised 3GHz chip had always been a completely different processor on a completely different development cycle. This is the whole point (and beauty) of the 975 theory: the delays to the 970fx are meaningless.

Kickaha and Amorph couldn't moderate themselves out of a paper bag. Abdicate responsibility and succumb to idiocy. Two years of letting a member make personal attacks against others, then stepping aside when someone won't put up with it. Not only that but go ahead and shut down my posting priviledges but not the one making the attacks. Not even the common decency to abide by their warning (afer three days of absorbing personal attacks with no mods in sight), just shut my posting down and then say it might happen later if a certian line is crossed. Bullshit flag is flying, I won't abide by lying and coddling of liars who go off-site, create accounts differing in a single letter from my handle with the express purpose to decieve and then claim here that I did it. Everyone be warned, kim kap sol is a lying, deceitful poster.

Now I guess they should have banned me rather than just shut off posting priviledges, because kickaha and Amorph definitely aren't going to like being called to task when they thought they had it all ignored *cough* *cough* I mean under control. Just a couple o' tools.

Don't worry, as soon as my work resetting my posts is done I'll disappear forever.

... and people don't care for Macs because?

...the value proposition has not been overwhelming in recent years.

If Apple are going to retrieve market share, they need to offer something that is overwhelming. A 30% faster single processor and then offer it in a dual configuration at a modest premium over which you could buy a PC.

Make consumers' heads turn next time that 2-3 year purchasing decision comes up. That needs at least 3.0ghz in a dual config at a reasonable price - and it needs to be out there today.

Dollars are like votes - they can be allocated at the consumer's discretion each time a purchasing decision is made. Apple can win this if the value proposition is overwhelming.

Ahh now you are seeing the bigger picture

Which is exactly why someone made that theory up.

The 975 doesn't exist. IBM announced the 970 long before it appeared in PowerMac G5s. There's been no announcement of a Power5-derivative, let along something called a 975. And the Power4 was available 2 years before the 970.

The shrink, along with other technologies, is what was going to get them to 3 Ghz. Then IBM had problems, and so they're not able to make it. It's as simple as that.

Apple usually makes deals with their CPU-manufacturs to not reveal the processors until Apple announces the new machines.

But in case of the 970, we REALLY needed something to look foreward too.... And this was it. It raised a lot of hopes...

What do you think would happen aftr 970FX? If they didn't have the fabrication troubles that they've had, they would, according to you already have reached 3 GHz.. and then what? the 65 nm fabrication will not go online for full scale production until second half of next year if we're lucky. Apple would've, in your scenario, been stuck at 3 GHz for over one year.. Great plan. Do you really think that IBM or Apple would come to a stop just after doing the 3 GHz 970FX?

Let's see. This would be IBM's line iof thinking according to you?
"By doing a light weight version of the great POWER4 we will return the crown of performance to Apple. But, after that, let's not continue the development past a die shrik. Let's not do exactly the same with our own great future, the POWER5. Let's just supply Apple with a plan worth one and half year, and then let's just grind to a dead stop."

This kind of thinking is.. really dumb, and neither IBM nor Apple is that dumb.

We have hard evidence that IBM have had a processor, derived from POWER5, called "GR-UL PPC 97x" on its roadmaps. What we really don't know is in what stage of development or deployment that processor is in. We know that IBM have had prototype POWER5 running in actual machines since this time last year. It would be really stupid for IBM not to have the GR-UL in development since Apple approiached them about the 970 four years ago.

At this point, who cares what the next generation is called. At one point we called it 980, now 975 seems to be a more plausible name. It might be called 971, 990, 9700 or PowerPC 5 or something else, that's not really the point. It IS on its way, that's very certain. Everything else would be so plainly brain dead that I have a hard time writing what's so overwhemlingly obviuos to, what seems to be, nearly all of us.

While I agree with you when it comes to how things ONCE worked. I just wanted to add this...

The IBM line of 970 (and its offshoots) are (or will soon be) used 'in a major way' by more than just Apple.

Who was the major customer of the G3 - Apple
Who was the major customer of the G4 - Apple

In both cases 'official news' about new those specific CPUs was close to nonexistent - pretty unusual in the CPU world. So yes I'm sure Apple had a hand in that... But, If rumors are true and to some extent we already know they are... The 97x will be used by Apple, Microsoft and some even say Sony... If thats the case IBM has more than just Apple to worry about and if MS and or Sony wants or doesn't mind IBM 'talking up' the next great 97x CPU in its arsenal then I'm willing to bet IBM will start to do just that.

After all - Imagine being in the position of trying to 'SELL' a new product that you can't OPENLY talk about to potential customers? Imagine how much easier it would be to sell a product to other potential customers when the press is allowed to report on it?

Apple sells END USER products and I guess one could argue that keeping people in the dark till it's SHIPPING has a benefit in the WOW FACTOR.

IBM sells CPUs that allow companies to BUILD new products these folks don't buy on impulse they buy after analyzing any/all KNOWN components that will be available at the time they are ready to go into production... IBM (or any component builder) needs to hype their products BEFORE they ship otherwise all those potential customers will have (long ago) already chosen something else not knowing your product was even in development.

As someone who loves Apple I have to admit that having them as a TOP buyer for CPUs (or any component) isn't something that any company would benefit from. It ties your hands way too much.

In short (too late) I'm sure IBM is glad that it's getting other 'BIG' buyers for their 97x line of CPUs and once Apple starts falling from the top buyer position (yea they'd have to fall a few spots) I'm sure you'll start seeing more and more information about what IBMs future plans are when it comes to the 97x line of CPUs.

IBM **wants** and **needs** to be able to sell and market (pre-market) its product (just like every other CPU supplier) and not being able to HYPE its future 97x (or 9xx if you will) cpus in the press **is** a disadvantage for them. After all AMD does it, Intel does it Mot does it and IBM does it (excluding the CPU Apple is using).

When it comes to the future I have a feeling Apple just won't have the 'juice' it once did and news regarding the 9xx CPU line will be more forthcoming no matter how much Apple/Steve hates it.

Just my .02 cents

Dave

The key word in that sentence is "after." After the 970fx. It's not "after" yet. Of course they'll design new chips. After.

I was sick of adding to my run on message above so I just wanted to add this...

It's not just IBM that's having it's hands tied by Apples overly cloak-n-dagger ways... Apples ENTERPRISE sales force is equally hamstrung. Can you imagine how hard it is to SELL into the enterprise segment when even the Apple sales reps can't hold future technology briefings to its customers?!?! Or even comment at all (when a potential customer asks about the companies future plans).

Dell does it...
HP/Compaq does it...
Cisco does it...

I know of these 3 for a fact since those are major vendors used where I work... But I'm sure they ALL do it. When it comes to Apple and their cute "we can't talk about future products" company line the reps are quickly dismissed and thought less of. This too I know for a fact.

Dave

Kickaha and Amorph couldn't moderate themselves out of a paper bag. Abdicate responsibility and succumb to idiocy. Two years of letting a member make personal attacks against others, then stepping aside when someone won't put up with it. Not only that but go ahead and shut down my posting priviledges but not the one making the attacks. Not even the common decency to abide by their warning (afer three days of absorbing personal attacks with no mods in sight), just shut my posting down and then say it might happen later if a certian line is crossed. Bullshit flag is flying, I won't abide by lying and coddling of liars who go off-site, create accounts differing in a single letter from my handle with the express purpose to decieve and then claim here that I did it. Everyone be warned, kim kap sol is a lying, deceitful poster.

Now I guess they should have banned me rather than just shut off posting priviledges, because kickaha and Amorph definitely aren't going to like being called to task when they thought they had it all ignored *cough* *cough* I mean under control. Just a couple o' tools.

Don't worry, as soon as my work resetting my posts is done I'll disappear forever.?

At least right this moment, the shipping time is 7-10 days for all PowerMac G5 models...

On the Developer Store, the 1.6 is still "same day"...

And based on one obscure reference in a roadmap in a presentation, that means that a totally new G5 chip will be released by Apple in a month that will magically erase IBM's problems? Of course they're planning new chips in the future. But the most parsimonious theory is that Jobs' 3 Ghz prediction was based on the fx. Then IBM had problems with the G5, and so now they're obviously not going to hit 3 Ghz as quick as Jobs said. All these other "975 now" theories are just wishful thinking because people feel their egos are on the line.

Hmm... Will we see a quiet update before the end of June?

IBM has NEVER stated that the 970 in any incarnation would hit 3Ghz. 2.5 is as high as I've seen so I always assumed that 3Ghz would be a new chip design. It's quite easy to be pessimistic here and I have no problems with that. But I do hold out hope that this can be done. If AMD can hit 2.4 then surely IBM's superior fabs and IP should be able to wring at least 2.8Ghz from a new process. We'll see though in a month. This is what makes computing fun.

What sense can be made of this?

The towers are backordered 7-10 days at the Apple store right now, but the G5 xserves are still back ordered as before.

Seems either there is a 970 supply problem (or other component), or the towers will have something other than a 970 or 970fx in them...very soon?

I had not noticed that the G5 Xserves have still estimated shipping 5-7 weeks . This is in accordance to what Kasper said, that IBM still has trouble to provide sufficiently enough 970FX processors at or beyond 2 GHz. This is going to be an interesting waiting in June, and I hope not a disaster 20th anniversary for Apple.

Just a thought...

What if the 975 isn't designed for higher frequency but for multi-core use? Image a dual 2,5 GHz dual-core G5. The original Power4 is multicored, isn't it?

Mastamind

I will agree there is a supply problem and it is one that Apple seems willing to encourage with new discounts being given. This would seem to indicate that something new is coming and they are trying to clear the sales channels.

Now, because something new is coming doesn't mean that it has to be something other then a 970 or 970fx. While the original roadmap for the 970FX may have shown it going to 2.4, there is no reason it couldn't go beyond that. How far? Who knows?

Now, Steve did say Apple would be at 3.0 in 12 months. We can only hope that he wasn't overly optimistic. The expectation seemed to be for something in the 2.4 to 2.5 range 3-4 months ago. IBM's fabrication problems nixed that. However that did not stop development on the "next phase" it only delayed or bypassed the planned winter phase.

I have no idea how much mileage IBM can get out of the 970FX. Can they get it to 3.0? Or was something else already in the works for this time frame? Whatever was or is in the works, Steve expected it to reach 3.0 ghz.

I am not buying this month, or next month. However when I do buy, I am confident it will be much faster then what we have now. 2.4 would have been fine in February, it would not be acceptable for June or July.

Something is in the works. I am guessing it is the next step beyond the 970FX, but maybe it is an enhanced (in some manner) 970FX. If it hits anywhere in the 2.8 to 3.2 ghz range, who really cares. If they hit that speed range, I'll be happy, and more interested in the "rest of the box" and what it has to go along with it.

Don't care what model number is on the chip, just so long as it, and the rest of the system runs right.

Another theory - they're going to have a minor bump before WWDC. They often do that when it's not a major upgrade. Then they'll get to 3 Ghz in a later bump, say this fall. In the end, they have to delay the 3 Ghz goal by only a few months. That's not too bad given IBM's problems.